To Aru Kagaku no Railgun - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

1. No whining about negative rep. Sometimes you get undeserved positive rep too, but no one complains about that. It's just the way it goes. I know it's hard, but you just have to learn to ignore it. They barely count against you anyway.

For the record, I wasn't "whining" about anything; I've gotten negative reps before. I was expressing my awe and shock that somebody would bother to negative anything over such a little comment I made about this episode, especially since Mentar had just finished with his statement not much earlier.

Originally Posted by Ashaman

While I agree that a using a cheat is a bad idea, especially considering that she knows there could be side-effects, I'd like to point out that all psychic powers are given by body/mind altering, so it would be par for the course really. and I fully agree with you saying that it is wrong to use it, but I see her growing inferiority complex as her excuse to use it. It isn't a very good one.

Except the "normal" power-giving thing is an official, safe, and legal procedure; it's not some suspicious under-the-table deal like Level-Upper.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Of course, that would ignore that the entire Academy city curriculum is based on altering the mind and body to give them super powers. The Level Upper is merely another drop in the pond in that regard.

As I said above, there's official, safe, and legal, and then there's under-the-table suspicious.
Steroids has proper medical uses too, in the hands of trained medical personel, not athletes. Same idea.

And then there is the line that we can draw whether or not something is a cheat. If you, for example, walk into an impassible wall when doing school work, you tend to look in your books or ask a teacher for help instead of trying to solve everything yourself, right? In other words, you look for another solution to pass that wall. Same thing here, Saten encountered an impassible wall, and looked for another solution to get past that wall. The Level Upper proved to be that way.

Your anology is way off; asking a teacher about homework would be asking an official scientist about getting powers through proper, legal channels. Level-Upper is the equivalent of buying a cheat-sheet, not asking a teacher. Plus, teachers try their best to make the students figure things out for themselves, as opposed to doing everything for them. They'll help you get through the problem, but you still have to understand it (i.e. studying for yourself) and pass the test.

Her dream was to have powers, she has no powers. How does that look 'not that bad off?' It's the equivalent of wanting to be a professional soccer player while having paralyzed legs.

It looks "not that bad off" because she has good friends, she has full use of her legs , and she's not moping around town or sitting in a fetal position in depression. Obviously she's getting by rather well without powers. Saten's not the only one without powers, and not everybody is using Level-Upper.

And yet many athletes still do so to this day, all in order to grasp their dreams. You underestimate the pull a true dream can have to make you seek for any way to achieve it.

Actually, you seem to be twisting the point here. It's not "would Saten do this," it's that using Level-Upper is no better than using drugs, and this is why I can't and don't feel sorry for Saten. It's dangerous and illegal. The strength of dreams doesn't matter; that's not the point here, and lots of people who aren't able to achieve their dreams don't do drugs anyway.

That said, I don't think the people of Academy City know that the Level Upper works like steroids for the brain. I mean, we know it has downsides like steroids do because we get all the information, but to all the people of Academy City it's merely something that makes them stronger, a better version of the brain-meddling their school does to them. What's the harm in using something that does the same thing their school does, only better?

And like I said, this is where common sense should kick in. Anime viewers or not, they know that drugs are bad when used improperly; why can't Level-Upper have bad side effects? If it was okay, why is it being distributed under the table and not sold at the local drugstore? It's common sense to at least be wary; people are just popping this thing left and right and they don't even realize how much danger they're putting themselves in, when they should be asking the question. It's not like Level-Upper comes with a stat-sheet or even an advertisement saying it's safe, either.

*shrug* Why would they? It's not as if the Railgun/Index connection is vital to the Railgun plot so far. Besides, we still have the... later arcs. And there's little walking around that connection.

And you just pointed out the futility and pointlessness of removing Touma and the Index corrolation from these episodes.

[Joe_fh]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Of course, that would ignore that the entire Academy city curriculum is based on altering the mind and body to give them super powers. The Level Upper is merely another drop in the pond in that regard.

And then there is the line that we can draw whether or not something is a cheat. If you, for example, walk into an impassible wall when doing school work, you tend to look in your books or ask a teacher for help instead of trying to solve everything yourself, right? In other words, you look for another solution to pass that wall. Same thing here, Saten encountered an impassible wall, and looked for another solution to get past that wall. The Level Upper proved to be that way.

As far as we're told there's no altering of the brain whatsoever. They're just focusing on stuff that boosts development of their powers. You could probably comapre it to school programs that focus more on math, biology etc. They are just using the potential of the kids to develop their power in a controlled environment for better effect. Level upper is more like cheating on a test instead of working hard to get a high score. Misaka's case for eaxmple - she worked incredibly hard to become a level 5 from level 1 and with level upper you go up just by listening to a song. How is that not cheating?

Originally Posted by Keroko

Her dream was to have powers, she has no powers. How does that look 'not that bad off?' It's the equivalent of wanting to be a professional soccer player while having paralyzed legs.

That doesn't feel like the best example but still there are a lot of things she could do to help people without abilities.

Originally Posted by Keroko

And yet many athletes still do so to this day, all in order to grasp their dreams. You underestimate the pull a true dream can have to make you seek for any way to achieve it.

And they get banned from sports big time thus there's no way for their dreams to come true
i believe her true dream is more like being helpful to others not having a power that might as well be something that won't end up being useful at all.
Dreams are a powerful motive but in Saten's case it just doesn't really feel natural as I said earlier. She has a good life great friend and she could achive a lot if things stay the same. on the other hand she might loose everything even her freinds if things go wrong since she knows that all the people that used LU committed crimes are in jail. Of course that's just my point

Originally Posted by Keroko

That said, I don't think the people of Academy City know that the Level Upper works like steroids for the brain. I mean, we know it has downsides like steroids do because we get all the information, but to all the people of Academy City it's merely something that makes them stronger, a better version of the brain-meddling their school does to them. What's the harm in using something that does the same thing their school does, only better?

Again there's no info about "brain-meddling" in their schools. In fact they seem normal for the most part.
I agree that there's not enough info about the effects of the LU like with all drugs. And since by skipping all the "hard work" part should feel like cheating one should feel there are consequences to their actions. Of course that never stopped people from doing the wrong thing over and over again

Originally Posted by Keroko

*shrug* Why would they? It's not as if the Railgun/Index connection is vital to the Railgun plot so far. Besides, we still have the... later arcs. And there's little walking around that connection.

It's not vital for now but they could only gain from that. Plus if they do animate the second ark it would feel wirerd to destroy all connections with Index in the first part and suddenly bringing them back in the second part with full force.

It's nice when there's actually something to discuss.
Shinji's points were also good.

[Keroko]

There are 'safe' and 'legal' ways? I'm sure various characters in the To Aruverse have something to say about some of the 'safe' and 'legal' methods of Academy city.

But let's put that aside for a moment, safety is dependent on one's knowledge of the risks. In the eyes of Saten, there are no risks to the Level Upper, only perks. Which leaves only the barrier that it's not official, and with no visible danger present, 'official' is a rather shaky barrier at best. Not to mention the 'official' way already tossed her aside, blatantly telling her she had no potential. At least the unofficial way gives her a chance still.

Now for my analogy, point taken. Different analogy then, you're stuck in a game. Stuck as in 'really stuck' as in 'having spend weeks, if not months' trying to get out of it. Would you consider going on the net to find a way to get un-stuck to be wrong?

Saten's friends and relatives have nothing to do with her dream, which is still crushed. You don't need to be without a family and friends to be crushed about a dream that was denied. Hence the soccer player analogy. Saten's dream is to become a psychic, but she has no power. This is the equivalent of someone with a dream of being a soccer player with paralyzed legs. No matter what that person may desire, no matter how big his drive, without his legs he'll never be a soccer player.

And Saten doesn't know it's dangerous. All she has seen were big successes, which only leaves the legal bit. And without a rule forbidding it, the word 'legal' quickly loses it's power. Remember, the Level Upper was never forbidden.

Besides, you're using meta-knowledge and hindsight to judge it being unhealthy. Until this episode (or it's manga equivalent chapter), even we as viewers did not know the Level Upper had side-effects, much less what those side-effects were. Neither does Saten. Add to that all she has seen was powerful people using above-average powers in perfect health, and there was no reason for her to assume that it would have negative side-effects.

We compare the Level Upper to the equivalent of drugs because we know how it works. Or we think we do, because in fact we are wrong. While I can't go into details, if you refer to the manga and re-read the explanation, you will see that the Level-Upper doesn't work like drugs at all.

If we, with all our meta-knowledge, already misjudge the Level-Upper like this, why on earth would Saten with her one-sided view of only positives be able to judge it correctly? That's hardly fair.

And as for brain meddling, according to Komoe, there is very much brain meddling involved in the Academy City programs.

"With the help of drugs and hypnosis, we cause a certain type of change in the brain."
Komoe-sensei, Index episode 13

In this light, using the Level-Upper which -being a song- is little more than an audio-hypnosis is no different from what school does to them on a regular basis. It's like borrowing a book with information your schoolbook doesn't have. Saten's dream is to be an awesome psychic, plain and simple. Any alternative she could take, like becoming an Anti-Skill, still wouldn't be achieving her dream. The moment she decides to become an Anti-Skill instead, she she would be admitting to herself that her dream is something she can never reach, and give up on it. The Level-Upper, while the wrong way towards it depending on one's point of view, is still a way of achieving her dream.

Comparing the way Misaka became a level 5 with the Level-Upper and calling it cheating is, again, vague. One calls it cheating because it's not achieved through hard work, another would say 'if it's there and it works, why not use it?' You can dig a hole with your hands, or use a machine to dig the hole for you. Either way, you get a hole, but would the guy with the machine be cheating? Why? Was it a race? If it's not a race, why would the guy with the machine be cheating? The goal was to dig a hole, isn't the quickest method usually the most efficient?

Same thing with the Level-Upper. Mikoto dug her hole with her bare hands, Saten sees the machine and is now wondering 'Well... it's right there, isn't it? If the goal is to dig a hole, why not use it?'

Oh, and to add to it, without that machine Saten won't be able to dig the hole at all. This is another thing about the Saten dilemma. While all the others wanted to grow in level faster, this is not the case for Saten. For Saten, it's not a question of hard work to get stronger, it's a question of "Either I use the Level-Upper to get powers, or I'll be without powers forever." Remember my bike analogy? Right now Saten is the only girl in her group of friends without a shiny bike, and she can do nothing but watch her friends have fun on their bikes. Sure, they do spend time with her, but once they step on their bikes, she gets left behind. All she wants is a bike of her own, so she can join her friends.

A dream has a strong pull.

Loneliness has an even stronger pull.

Put the two together, and you have a pull only the strongest can resist.

That is Saten's dilemma.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Keroko

There are 'safe' and 'legal' ways? I'm sure various characters in the To Aruverse have something to say about some of the 'safe' and 'legal' methods of Academy city.

Uuuuuh, safe and legal ways of becoming Espers, like Mikoto and Kuorko and others? I'm pretty sure that those kids' parents are at least sending them to responsible people at those schools to have their bodies altered instead of some under-the-table doc who they don't even know exists.....

But let's put that aside for a moment, safety is dependent on one's knowledge of the risks. In the eyes of Saten, there are no risks to the Level Upper, only perks. Which leaves only the barrier that it's not official, and with no visible danger present, 'official' is a rather shaky barrier at best. Not to mention the 'official' way already tossed her aside, blatantly telling her she had no potential. At least the unofficial way gives her a chance still.

Safety is also dependant on asking questions to make sure you understand and making sure you know what you're getting into. Doctors make sure their patients know what's going to happen in a procedure or a treatment. Where's the doctor to explain the ups and downs of Level-Upper to its users?
Yeah, and there are still people who think heroine has no downside either. We call them "idiots."
Any person with actual common sense should be suspicious of suspicious under-the-table things like this. You don't buy things from some random guy on the side of the street, do you? Again, negligence is a poor excuse.
So the official way didn't work for her, i.e. she couldn't pass the test, so she buys pre-written essays? I'm still not crying for her.

Now for my analogy, point taken. Different analogy then, you're stuck in a game. Stuck as in 'really stuck' as in 'having spend weeks, if not months' trying to get out of it. Would you consider going on the net to find a way to get un-stuck to be wrong?

You're trying to compare a game to using a body-altering audio "drug"? That's an even worse analogy. Neither my game cheats nor Gameshark mess around with my body chemistry, nor run the risk of getting me locked up in jail. There's no moral reduction from looking up a gameguide, and there's certainly no health issue.

Saten's friends and relatives have nothing to do with her dream, which is still crushed. You don't need to be without a family and friends to be crushed about a dream that was denied. Hence the soccer player analogy. Saten's dream is to become a psychic, but she has no power. This is the equivalent of someone with a dream of being a soccer player with paralyzed legs. No matter what that person may desire, no matter how big his drive, without his legs he'll never be a soccer player.

You asked how I thought "she doesn't look so bad." I answered because her life is plenty good without powers. So her down-ness over not having them is rather pointless. The only thing she isn't right now is "cool," and the major massive majority of people live happy lives without being "cool."
More to your point, crushed dreams are something that a lot of people have; they don't all go rushing to a drug to try and chase it. And they learn to live with it, not look for an escape or suspicious quick way up the ladder.

And Saten doesn't know it's dangerous. All she has seen were big successes, which only leaves the legal bit. And without a rule forbidding it, the word 'legal' quickly loses it's power. Remember, the Level Upper was never forbidden.

She's seen big successes from people who wind up in jail.
Again more to your point, if it were safe, then a) why didn't someone else come up with it, and b) why isn't it "government-approved," so to speak. The simple fact it's being distributed like contraband isn't exactly a good sign.

Besides, you're using meta-knowledge and hindsight to judge it being unhealthy. Until this episode (or it's manga equivalent chapter), even we as viewers did not know the Level Upper had side-effects, much less what those side-effects were. Neither does Saten. Add to that all she has seen was powerful people using above-average powers in perfect health, and there was no reason for her to assume that it would have negative side-effects.

No I'm not using meta-knowledge. You didn't read what I said very well, I see. The people know it's not "government-approved," and they know it's being distributed like contraband. And again as I've said several times, if it's safe, why isn't it being used officially? And also once again, it's a body-altering audio "drug"; not considering the negative ramifications is nothing short of irresponsible negligence. Are you saying that people should just start trusting everything? You don't see a guy on the side of the street selling stuff and go "hey this guy is selling this thing for a good price, it'll be okay."
Ignorance. Is not bliss.

We compare the Level Upper to the equivalent of drugs because we know how it works. Or we think we do, because in fact we are wrong. While I can't go into details, if you refer to the manga and re-read the explanation, you will see that the Level-Upper doesn't work like drugs at all.

I guess you really aren't paying attention to what I'm saying again. I'm comparing it to drugs, as the situation is very similar to an athlete abusing steroids. I never said it is a drug.

If we, with all our meta-knowledge, already misjudge the Level-Upper like this, why on earth would Saten with her one-sided view of only positives be able to judge it correctly? That's hardly fair.

Again, you're blindly labeling my viewpoint as meta-knowledge. If you actually paid attentioon to what I've been saying, you'd see it's all stuff that Saten knows. It's a suspicious "drug." Sold under the table. There's a term called "red flags."

And as for brain meddling, according to Komoe, there is very much brain meddling involved in the Academy City programs.

"With the help of drugs and hypnosis, we cause a certain type of change in the brain."
Komoe-sensei, Index episode 13

In this light, using the Level-Upper which -being a song- is little more than an audio-hypnosis is no different from what school does to them on a regular basis. It's like borrowing a book with information your schoolbook doesn't have. Saten's dream is to be am awesome psychic, plain and simple. Any alternative she could take, like becoming an Anti-Skill, still wouldn't be achieving her dream. The moment she decides to become an Anti-Skill instead, she she would be admitting to herself that her dream is something she can never reach, and give up on it.

The schools are official state/government facilities with official state/government staff, not some song found on the Internet. And submitting yourself to audio-hypnosis made by God-knows-who isn't any smarter.

The Level-Upper, while the wrong way towards it, is still a way of achieving her dream.

And it's still wrong. Again, athletes don't get off the hook for using steroids or other drugs to ahieve their dream of being a star athlete.

Comparing the way Misaka became a level 5 with the Level-Upper and calling it cheating is, again, vague. One calls it cheating because it's not achieved through hard work, another would say 'if it's there and it works, why not use it?' You can dig a hole with your hands, or use a machine to dig the hole for you. Either way, you get a hole, but would the guy with the machine be cheating? Why? Was it a race? If it's not a race, why would the guy with the machine be cheating? The goal was to dig a hole, isn't the quickest method usually the most efficient?

Same thing with the Level-Upper. Mikoto dug her hole with her bare hands, Saten sees the machine and is now wondering 'Well... it's right there, isn't it? If the goal is to dig a hole, why not use it?'

How does Saten know it won't hurt her? Did a trusted government official do a government study and put it on the news for everybody to see if it works or not?
A machine to dig a hole isn't something you buy without knowing who you even got it from. For all Saten knows, the Level-Upper could have been "made" by a 14-year-old, with only a moderate understanding of science and sharing Saten's dream to become an Esper, who hacked into his scientist father's computer, having known his password, and decided to use his father's failed research to make his dream come true without realizing how dangerous it was himself, then decided to send it to the public, all the while still oblivious to its danger.
Or heck, maybe it was a supervillain who wants to see the world burn. Joker, anybody?
She doesn't know who made it, and yet she's willing to trust herself to it. That's foolish at best. You don't go swallowing a pill that some guy on the side of the street says will cure the common cold, do you?

Oh, and to add to it, without that machine Saten won't be able to dig the hole at all. This is another thing about the Saten dilemma. While all the others wanted to grow in level faster, this is not the case for Saten. For Saten, it's not a question of hard work to get stronger, it's a question of "Either I use the Level-Upper to get powers, or I'll be without powers forever." Remember my bike analogy? Right now Saten is the only girl in her group of friends without a shiny bike, and she can do nothing but watch her friends have fun on their bikes. Sure, they do spend time with her, but once they step on their bikes, she gets left behind. All she wants is a bike of her own, so she can join her friends.

And the teacher analogy is still much better and accurate. Unless Saten intends to get her own bike by stealing it from someone. Then the analogy would be a little better (the teacher one is still best), because the bike doesn't do any harm morally or physically.

A dream has a strong pull.

Loneliness has an even stronger pull.

Put the two together, and you have a pull only the strongest can resist.

That is Saten's dilemma.

Actually there's plenty more to it than that. Like how far she'd be willing to go to not be lonely. And I still can't and don't feel sorry for her because of her choice.

[Keroko]

*sigh* Forget it, let's just call the Saten debate quits here, lest we return to our usual weekly pattern of 'Keroko VS Shinji arguing'. They always end up going nowhere anyway.

The author obviously wanted us to feel sorry for Saten, but it seems he failed to reach that goal for some.

[WildArms]

Good but is kinda boring without touma appearing, and that is the reallity

[Miraluka]

WoW such wall of text... 'Keroko X Shinji arguing' is very long n_ñU, maybe the author wanted us to feel sorry for Saten but the anime overdone it :S.

[Joe_fh]

And it was just getting to the good part.
I'd love to type one long reply but it would be a bit pointless now. Still it's not like there's anything else to discuss.
I'd be glad to join if you start again

[Keroko]

Yes, sorry about that. I'm just tired of banging heads with Shinji every single episode.

[Miraluka]

But keeps active this forum ;P.

[Jin Kizuite]

I'd have to side with Satan for this. The episode brings a very fair arguement to those without what others have, which is something I can relate to in real life.

If such a dream thing was to fall into my hands for my and i'm sure others circumstances, I would probably also use it. Albeit any side effects it would bring.

I feel for Satan. Though it can't be help, your born as you are and it's something you have to live with.

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by Jin Kizuite

I'd have to side with Satan for this.
I feel for Satan.

I was really confused by this post for a second.

[Jin Kizuite]

What's there to be confused by? D=
Maybe if you switch the sentence around it'll make sense.

1) If she uses it (ehem) then I can understand that because I can relate to how she feels. I would prefer her to experience having powers, than never experiencing them at all in her life. I think there's a similar saying out there?

[Midonin]

Originally Posted by Jin Kizuite

What's there to be confused by? D=

You'd be surprised of the implications of changing one letter.

[Jin Kizuite]

Which one? owo

[KaneDragon]

Originally Posted by Jin Kizuite

I feel for Satan. Though it can't be help, your born as you are and it's something you have to live with.

That's right, it's not Satan's fault...

Originally Posted by Midonin

You'd be surprised of the implications of changing one letter.

I'm more surprised that I still find it amusing. I thought I'd be used to it by now.

[Jin Kizuite]

(Is still confused and lost) T_T Maybe I should just delete that sentence and relegate back into the forums shadows. D=

[Midonin]

It's not that bad. Nothing a quick trip to the character page on the official website can't resolve. Just that it makes it look like you're confusing a friendly esper-in-training for the devil himself.

[Jin Kizuite]

Oh my, sorry I never paided attention to the characters names really. >.< The only characters I'm was ever interested enough to learn their names is Touma, Mikoto and Index. (Blame the Title of the last series for that)

Lol, Satan. DX Can't believe I just realized that now. =P

Honestly, why hasn't there been a poll for favourite character and why yet in this sub-forum? (Unless my eye's decieve me again, where's my glasses darn it.)

[Nochgo]

Ehh, I still don't think Saten should use the Level Upper, even knowing her situation and her wants to become more powerful. Maybe I'm just not understanding how she feels, but I just can't sympathize with her taking a shady shortcut to become stronger.

I just noticed this, but both Saten and and Uiharu is in both OP of Index. I wonder why I never thought about those two never having an appearance in the first season.