3 years already and still shedding a tear

[otacu]

A post full of hate and resentment.

So many words just to say the same old thing "I love Lacus and Fllay was a bitch because she stole Kira's viriginity(that was meant to Lacaus). So she deserved to die".

Wow. Really Just to remark the fact that you HATE Fllay. You went as far as completely ignore all the Kira-Fllay development (who cares?she has to pay for her sins!), whining about stealing viriginities (as Kira was not interested and not happy to be with Fllay) and to tell complete bs like saying that Kira would have saved AA even without Fllay.... when in the series it was explicit said that the only reason Kira was so into the fights and was able to save everyone was that he got motivated by Fllay.

In the end how many people did Kira killed? How many people died for Lacus? How many people were killed by Yzak, Dearka, Murrue, Cagalli, Athrun and others? In the end it was a massacre. Lacus even used her speeches to confuse little soldier talking about peace and impair their skills while her "knights" were killing countless grunts whose only sins was to be inside a enemy mobile suits. You don't need to call for Justice cause there is no Justice. There is WAR and everybody used everything they had to survive and defeat their enemies. How many innocents do you think were sacrificed for Lacus's ideal of peace? Countless. Did she die in the end? No.
Calling in Justice to counter the solid Kira-Fllay development is silly and won't do any good to you.
If you rewatch ep28 you will hear and see that Kira was aware of Fllay's true nature (he wasn't delusional go rewatch the whole series!) and he still loved her. By the end she got frequent hallucinations of Fllay: there was Lacus near him but he thought about Fllay. In the end both loved each other. That's sad to hear for Lacus's fans but it's clear (just see my previous post).
You are confusing your own judgement of Fllay to what Kira should have done. "Kira was too nice".... ok that's your opinion but it was still his own choice to love her in the end. You hate her, Kira loved her. You are two different being. Kira made his choice and was fully aware of her true self as i already demonstrated before.

So who cares if YOU hate her? It's fine and your personal opinion (since you like perfect and flawless characters better)but the point is that Kira loved her for what she was and wanted to be with her.
Had Fllay survived Kira and Fllay would have been together.

Let's hear about this "ideal" Lacus-Kira pairing. It was just an artificial pairing out of convenience. They barely spoke to each other. If you check the timeline
http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds.../timeline.html
you will see that they just met for few days.... and Lacus never showed to love him until episode 46. Let alone Kira who NEVER showed to be even interested in a relationship with Lacus.
LacusxKira was just in the minds of the fans in GS. They were according to NEWTYPE magazine the most liked characters but their pairing was impossible given the development of Fllay-Kira in the last 50 episodes (see previous post). So the "good" Fukuda solved the situations to please the fans and just killed Fllay. There is no Justice it was just the desire of the fans that wanted Lacus and Kira together despite Kira's feelings so far.

That being said and despite all your hate generated by the concept of an "idealistic world", mere Lacus fanboyism and desire for a dangerous sense of universal Justice (death penalty for a person who slept with someone who agreed to this LOL) the greatness of Fllay's character is still intact in all her tragedy and development. She really was a wonderful and intriguing character and probably the most underestimated character of the CE.

[Last_Hope]

otacu

I´m impressed that you managed to read Demongod´s post.

Since, as you put it.

"So many words just to say the same old thing "I love Lacus and Fllay was a bitch because she stole Kira's viriginity(that was meant to Lacaus). So she deserved to die"."



Flay is a misunderstood character. People see a backstabbing, coldhearted, evil being when they should be seeing a sad and confused teenage girl whoms life has been torn asunder completely.

[Demongod86]

He envisioned Fllay because he loved her or because he was scarred by her? I'm sure you've unwillingly related things to each other before, even bad things. How many innocents were killed because of Lacus's ideals? Would you pin that on Lacus, or on the PZala/Durandall? Goes both ways. Fllay directly turned Kira into a killing machine. Lacus fought a war. Fllay didn't fight a war, she wanted revenge. That's all there is to it...as for Fllay dying, it's called consistency. If Natale and even King Arthur die for lesser sins, this is definitely consistent. Heck, if you're saying Lacus should die a horrible death because of how many people died as a result of war, why not just kill off every politicial leader? They're all monsters!

It was Fllay's intents and her sins that got her killed, not because so many people died. Heck, most heroes are responsible for far more deaths. But it was what she did to Kira that she paid with her life.

Fllay is also not underestimated. What did she DO? Heck, her death was the best thing she DID do as it allowed Kira to get the power to defeat Rau...and heck, it coulda been anyone close to him there and the same crap woulda happened, like, ahem, Tolle.

And it isn't my opinion that Kira was too nice. Look at Sai. He's your average everyday shmo. Did he take any crap from Fllay? Nope. Dumped her like any regular person would. Sai proved my point quite clearly when he basically told her to STFU and GTFO after Fllay thought Kira was dead.

Fllay would have had no chance with anyone more realistic. How do I know this? Sai. She only got as far as she did because she took advantage of a well-meaning guy like Kira. That isn't just my opinion, that is reflected with Sai. I will hammer this point. She paid justly for taking advantage of Kira, and for all of her other pre ep-31 BS.

Also, as for a K x L being in the mind of the fans...sure...which is why she entrusted him with the Freedom. No, it wasn't jedi intuition, it wasn't that she can see into Fukuda's head and know that Kira's the ultimate coordinator. She liked the guy because he helped her out on AA and to get out of there initially, so she helped him in turn with healing, and with a new sword to do what he wanted to do. Kira and Lacus always had a mutually beneficial relationship, because I see no other way to explain her giving him the Freedom WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE UNIVERSE. Yes, you can say Fukuda's full of shit, but it also makes sense within the context of the universe. And if you deny that, then you might as well deny everything that happened past that point, including whatever changes you tout for Fllay.

And while I might hate Fllay and love Lacus, I can also see that there was no PLACE for Fllay either. As I remember Kira saying, in ep 28, he said "This was a mistake. We shouldn't be together anymore." and then she ran off crying. I deleted the episodes a while ago from my computer for memory conservation, but if someone still has the episodes, then that'd be a nice screenshot to bring up.

[otacu]

@Last_hope it wasn't so difficult to read demongod86's post. It was basically the same thing over and over again....

Originally Posted by Demongod86

He envisioned Fllay because he loved her or because he was scarred by her? I'm sure you've unwillingly related things to each other before, even bad things. How many innocents were killed because of Lacus's ideals? Would you pin that on Lacus, or on the PZala/Durandall? Goes both ways. Fllay directly turned Kira into a killing machine. Lacus fought a war. Fllay didn't fight a war, she wanted revenge. That's all there is to it...as for Fllay dying, it's called consistency. If Natale and even King Arthur die for lesser sins, this is definitely consistent. Heck, if you're saying Lacus should die a horrible death because of how many people died as a result of war, why not just kill off every politicial leader? They're all monsters!

I wasn't saying that Lacus needed to die. It was YOUR reasoning and the fact that you are searching for absolute Justice.... there is no direct connection sin->penalty in real life as you seem to suggest and there was no direct connection in Gseed either. Mwuu died and what did he do to deserve that? Nothing! There was a fricking war going on! Go down from your idealisti pedestal and face the harsh reality. There is no Justice. You are just making sorry excuses to sentence Fllay to death. Natarle died for lesser sins? She was the commander of the flagship of a fleet that planned to nuke the entire PLANT! They nuked BOAZ and were planning to nuke Plant too. You just don't make sense because you stil trying to search for Justice in a war. I never said that i hate Lacus because she played dirty tricks and lead many innocents to death.... it's your reasoning that seeks justice! Every war is dirty and Fllay and Lacus played along.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

It was Fllay's intents and her sins that got her killed, not because so many people died. Heck, most heroes are responsible for far more deaths. But it was what she did to Kira that she paid with her life.
Fllay is also not underestimated. What did she DO? Heck, her death was the best thing she DID do as it allowed Kira to get the power to defeat Rau...and heck, it coulda been anyone close to him there and the same crap woulda happened, like, ahem, Tolle.

He loved her! Stop telling Kira what to do just because YOU love Lacus! Kira was happy with Fllay and that's more than enough in his mind. If you have this strong NEED for Lacus go and search a Lacus in the real world... i'm suuuure you will be successful!
Fllay did play a great part in Gseed's story as she was linked to Kira. If you didn't even see that you are really blinded by your love for Lacus.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

And it isn't my opinion that Kira was too nice. Look at Sai. He's your average everyday shmo. Did he take any crap from Fllay? Nope. Dumped her like any regular person would. Sai proved my point quite clearly when he basically told her to STFU and GTFO after Fllay thought Kira was dead.
Fllay would have had no chance with anyone more realistic. How do I know this? Sai. She only got as far as she did because she took advantage of a well-meaning guy like Kira. That isn't just my opinion, that is reflected with Sai. I will hammer this point. She paid justly for taking advantage of Kira, and for all of her other pre ep-31 BS.

Ssigh recognised that Kira loved her and entrusted Fllay to Kira. That's why he was nice. Kira was nice: sure but it was his own choice to love Fllay even when he discovered who she really was. And Ssigh knew that.
Since you are a bit confused on many parts of the story Ssigh never dumped Fllay to begin with. It was Fllay that dumped him to go with Kira and after that Ssigh was not able to accept Fllay anymore because she loved Kira: Ssigh told with violence this thing many times to Fllay in ep32 "You loved him! You loved him!" it was clear but IN YOUR MIND you removed the dialogue (as other dialogues during the series) and you changed it to Ssigh saying "STFU and GTFO". Pretty convenient....

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Also, as for a K x L being in the mind of the fans...sure...which is why she entrusted him with the Freedom. No, it wasn't jedi intuition, it wasn't that she can see into Fukuda's head and know that Kira's the ultimate coordinator. She liked the guy because he helped her out on AA and to get out of there initially, so she helped him in turn with healing, and with a new sword to do what he wanted to do. Kira and Lacus always had a mutually beneficial relationship, because I see no other way to explain her giving him the Freedom WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE UNIVERSE. Yes, you can say Fukuda's full of shit, but it also makes sense within the context of the universe. And if you deny that, then you might as well deny everything that happened past that point, including whatever changes you tout for Fllay.

So you are saying that miss Perfection didn't give Freedom to Kira cause she knew who he was and how he would have used (for her plan!). NO! She gave Freedom to Kira out of love! Yeah sure. The spoiled princess can give away top secret mecha to her little toyboy to play and "to do what he wanted to do".... you are just making Lacus look worse.
I dare you to imagine the daugther of Bush giving the latest Stealth bomber to her wannabelover because he helped her before and was kind to her ..... and without knowing who he was and what was he planning to do!
Reality is that out of covenient plot hole she knew all along that Kira was the destined one and entrusted god-gundam Freedom to him TO achieve her plan.
If not..... oh well you are making me really beginning to hate Lacus! Now who is the one who should have died?

Originally Posted by Demongod86

And while I might hate Fllay and love Lacus, I can also see that there was no PLACE for Fllay either. As I remember Kira saying, in ep 28, he said "This was a mistake. We shouldn't be together anymore." and then she ran off crying. I deleted the episodes a while ago from my computer for memory conservation, but if someone still has the episodes, then that'd be a nice screenshot to bring up.

Now you are really beginning to piss me off. For love of GOD! Go check the ep again like Ank_tien did! Search on Youtube! Search whenever you want! I already wrote the exact words he said "WE were wrong to begin with". He said "bokutachi": plural! He knew Fllays' true self and still loved her! How many times do i need to repeat this.
Here and before with Ssigh you demostrates that your memory is highly impaired by your infatuation with Lacus. You conveniently remove important lines and change them back to help your artificial Lacus-Kira pairing!

EDIT: once and for all. For all those who think that Kira was a complete idiot with not even a brain cell who wasn't able to see through Fllay.... go WATCH episodes 28 before embarassing yourself and making me repeat the same thing in multiple posts.



Finally.....

[Diaboso]

EDIT: once and for all. For all those who think that Kira was a complete idiot with not even a brain cell who wasn't able to see through Fllay.... go WATCH episodes 28 before embarassing yourself and making me repeat the same thing in multiple posts.



Finally.....[/QUOTE]

Hum ill take you up and raise you a

He was an idiot and fllay had him around her finger

Spoiler:

I mean when she dies he still fells for her as if nothing happend =P

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by otacu

No? Why? She used what she had. You can disapprove but she definetely was relying on her own power since she didn't have a personal army at her oders.

Lacus didn't con them into following her. They did because they wanted to and shared ideals. Besides, I wouldn't call it "using her own power" either. She did her part, but she certainly couldn't have done it alone.

You see a “ a girl who resorted to high school tactics”... well, she IS a high school girl. That's why she is human that's the beauty of her character.

I'd think little of an actual high school girl who did that, so I think little of Flay. And I don't call it "using her own power" anymore than I say a thief is "using his own money".

She is a 15 old girl and she act in a plausible and realist way not like an angel who at the age of 15 has already reached nirvana and knows absolute Truth.

Lacus doesn't know absolute truth, and she's not an angel either (even if she looks that way.) But she isn't psycho either. Unlike some. And she knows the value of forgiveness, and the evil of genocide.

But that's fine to disapprove her behaviour at first. That's why there is character development and character growth. That's why Cagalli at first is just a selfish and simple minded girl who searched her private little terrorist war despite her responsibilities (like she later realized). Or Kira who at some point was completely focused on killing as much enemies as he could... or Athrun enraged by revenge... or Yzak who coldblooded killed a pod of civilians... or Natarle who followed military orders no matter what...and so on.... they were all wrong in the beginning and we disapproved. Later they develop and understand their errors. Fllay was wrong in the beginning and that's perfectly fine.

Flay is different from the others in that her choices were motivated by selfishness. Sure, the others made mistakes, but ultimately they were trying to serve something greater than themselves. Flay only cared about herself.

And Cagalli is anything but selfish. Headstrong and shortsighted, yes. Self-centered? Occasionally. Selfish? Never.

Yes, i was wrong in using the Lacus faboy comments in YOUR case.

No, you were wrong period. In several ways:
- it's never right to use ad hominem;
- making Lacus look bad won't make Flay look good
- there's nothing wrong with being a fanboy. (As far as I'm concerned, you're a Flay Fanboy.) Saying baseless, pointless stuff like "Kira can kick Amuro's ass", or "Amuro can kick Kira's ass", or, gods help us, "Luke Skywalker in an X-wing can take on the both of them put together" has no place in a rational debate. But recognizing qualities in a character and admiring those qualities? Why wouldn't we?

No true. In episode 28 he said that they were wrong to begin with. BOTH of them!

Yes. It takes two to build a relationship. He was basically saying they went to each other for the wrong reasons, at a time in their lives where they were both confused and hurting.

So he clearly saw though her act.

No. As I just explained, it was something else. He never showed any sign of seeing through her. Quite the contrary.

And this is really important element like you said earlier. All your reasoning was based on the fact that he wasn't aware of her true self until the end. But that's not true. Kira knew all along. In the ep 28 it's perfectly clear and explicit.

OK, I rewatched that dialog for you. Now I want you to do something for me: look up "explicit" in a dictionary.

In the final episode it's again remarked (you said he only he was “subconciously aware” of that... no, he was aware of that).

"<Ghost Flay> I wanted to apologize
<Kira> What for? "
Not a picture of understanding to me.

Maybe a screenshot will help. It's plural and Kira said clearly “bokutachi”.


Ok. that's fine. In the end she loved him but you are questioning if that was a pure love and how depth it was. The answer later. But if you are questioning the purity and depth of that love we could not even be sure of the love between Cagalli and Athrun or Lacus and Kira later on.... but that's fine. In the end the important point is that they loved each other.

Thing is, I'm using a somewhat broader definition of "love". As in "love thy neighbour". Or "loving one's friends". Or "loving Paris Hilton". Or even "loving milk".

Fine. So the answer to why Kira didn't kissed Lacus is postponed to later when it will be cleared how he felt about Fllay.


Still you missed vital elements in Fllay-Kira development.


There were more than enough reasons to care about Fllay and Kira. See further in the post.

Oh, I cared about Flay. I just wanted her to be disfigured.

Like you made plausible speculations of Fllay's past (at the beginning of the post) we can make completely plausible speculations on Lacus's past. She was the same. Athrun knew her before and the Lacus at the beginning of the series is the Lacus he knew. In the end Lacus didn't change during the series: she always was the perfect angel with poker face with all the answer we saw at the beginning when Kira handed her to Athrun.

Why would she need to change? At the core, nobody really changed (except maybe Patrick Zala. I don't think he was a total psycho at the beginning). They just learnt a few things.

Please rewatch it again. Like i said above, Kira said they were both at faults.

As I said: such is generally the way of relationship. It takes two.

They still fought for their own idea and to achieve their objectives... and they were completely wrong in the beginning. That's why i said i like character development: they understood their errors and redeemed themselves in the end.

You're trying to stretch the definition of "selfish" further than it can possibly go. You want it to include, among others, every Peace Nobel Prize winner since there was a Nobel Prize. Since only your own will can make your choices, of course you try to achieve the objectives you make your own. It's true for everyone.

And as I said, their motivations were good. Their mistakes laid in not seeing the big picture. Flay's different. From start to finish, she only thought of her own little skin. Well, she may have spared a few minutes for Sai after he tried to pilot Strike, but she never acted on it.

Everyone can make mistakes, that's true. Then, how do we tell heroes and villains apart? By wondering about this: when push comes to shove, who's standing with the angels? Who's standing with the devils? And who's trying to crawl to safety? Flay chose option 3. When Azrael pulled a gun, she chose option 3, which was rather consistent with her other choices. The one time she showed courage was when she manipulated her friends into staying aboard AA.

You see, I was wrong in my earlier post. What Flay wants isn't redemption. Redemption's for Kira, Athrun, and all the others. Even, in the end, for Natarle. No, what Flay wants is forgiveness. She doesn't want to earn it. She just wants it. She wants it to be given to her, like so many other things in her life.

For all that matter it was even clear who the main character was in GSD.... the point is that in GS she was one of the most important character in the story at the same level of Cagalli, Athrun, Fllay and few others. If you ask to fans or authors “who are the main characters of GS?” Lacus is there.

The sun is bloody important to agriculture. Do you expect a chapter on nuclear physics in a book on agriculture? GS and GSD are stories of a world in which Lacus was leaving a mark. But it wasn't her story.

Ok screenshot really needed.


Yes i was paying attention. So i guess Athrun and Lacus would have married without love... now THIS really made Lacus's ability to love questionable....LOL

Let me remind you that Flay was in a similar arrangement with Sai (and without the excuse of fertility problems). Whatever you say about Lacus on the subject will count even more for Flay.

Seriously, it's just the world in which she grew up. Just because you grew up in an individualistic society that thinks arranged unions are abhorent doesn't mean others have to agree with you.

It's still highly questionable and that's why. Lacus had always been kind to every single being ... she was kind even to AA crew when they treated her like a “strange creature” and she was kind even to Fllay who was openly hostile to her.

It's called "colorative protection". Look it up.

All she did was to prepare her plan. In the theater scene all Lacus and Athrun talked about was Lacus's plan and she was trying to convince him in joining her and Kira. It's a very bland hint imo. She was just recruiting more manpower.

It's not about Lacus' motivation. It's about foreshadowing. It's much less obvious than stranding a boy and a girl on a deserted island, I'll grant.

But so did she for everyone. She helped everyone to find some peace and comfort.

No, only those who needed it. Kira needed it. That's the hint.

If you are kind to everyone there is no reason to think that Kira was special for sentimental reason. To use your own reasoning... she was still engaged at the moment. There is no hints to say she loved Kira at that point.

I don't think she did, though she definitely liked him.

The first time we could see she loved Kira was when she comforted him on Eternal after Kira discovered Fllay was alive. Athrun went outside with Cagalli leaving the two alone and recognizing Lacus's feelings and breaking his engagement. That's episode 46-47!!!

The engagement was broken before that. By his dad.

So? The point was that Fllay and Kira shared a lot of time and experiences together. Love and Hate was a reference to Kira and Fllay since Fllay hated Kira at some point.

Kira didn't share in that feeling. He, in fact, saw very little of the real Flay, as I wrote several times.

Again. Rewatch ep 28.

Again. Your conclusions aren't mine.

There was sincere love. The depth is left at your judgement like in every other relationship. The importat thing is that she sincerely loved him.

And yet she never did one damn thing for him.

What's Athrun and Cagalli's excuse for what? For their love? For their breaking up?

For their relationship not advancing much in two years.

AND he was still thinking about Fllay. It's perfectly plausible.

Plausible? Maybe. But since, as I said, he had no idea what kind of person she was, I find that rather a moot point.

I'm eager to listen to your Lacus's analysis then. It's not that i like her... i just don't find her insteresting.

Lacus may look like an angel... but she's still the head of a clandestine organisation that will lie and steal to protect her ideals. She looks airheaded, but she's actually quite a shrewd judge of character, and as ruthless as she has to be without becoming what she's fighting against. She's like a swan: she doesn't look like she's doing much besides looking pretty and graveful, but under the surface, she's paddling like crazy.

She's also someone grappling with the paradox of "fighting for peace". She just doesn't fumble with her uncertainties as obviously as Cagalli or Athrun. (By which I mean that she has uncertainties. She just doesn't let it show.)

And NOW down to the meat. Fllay+Kira relationship. Step by step since a lot of people enjoy conveniently ignoring scenes (or just didn't recall all the scenes)

First episode. Fllay is Ssigh fiancee. Fllay is one year younger than Kira and co and they attend the same school. From the first scenes it's clearly hinted that Kira has a big crush on her

No. It's hinted he has some kind of crush on her. There are a lot of degrees between "sorts through her trash" and "voted for her in the Miss Heliopolis election, once". I believe he fell somewhere in the middle. I also don't think much of adolescent crushes.

but being the nice guy he is, he doesn't want to interfere with his close friend Ssigh of course.

The hint is that being friggin shy, he doesn't act on it. Is he even aware of Sai and Flay's engagement? He didn't seem very up to date on the gossip thing.

On the other hand we see that Fllay like a normal 15year old high school girl enjoys play around with friends and know that Kira has a crush on her: but this doesn't matter to her, she just enjoy being flattered and loved since she is a spoiled rich girl. That's the starting point.

She didn't seem to notice him. At all. Not that he was doing anything to get noticed.

Netxt heliopolis is destroyed. Fllay loses her home and her friends. She is all alone and when she get rescued she goes and embraces the only one who could make her feel safe: Ssigh not Kira.

She just embraced the first familiar face she saw once out of the pod, because she's prone to that kind of effusions after being very scared and alone. She'd have embraced Miriallia or Tolle just as readily.

She doesn't even know he is a coordinator so she doesn't really hate or like him and she doesn't need him.

Damn right. As I told Sniper, she barely knew him.

Next step Fllay discovers that Kira is a coordinator so now he is despised. But the trigger is the father's death now she is completely alone: family is gone, home is gone, close friends is gone and she is aboard a ship in the middle of the war. That's when she thought of using Kira's abilities for her plan. Since she doesn't have a gundam to bribe him

A bribe is something you pay someone to do something he knows is wrong. Lacus gave him Freedom to do something he knew was right.

and make him fight for her she uses the only weapon she had: the crush Kira has on her and the rest is history. At this point Fllay hate all the coordinator and wouldn't really mind seeing all of them in dust: this will change drastically later on. Fllay thinks that Kira is not fighting seriously since he is a coordinator himself and doesn't understand his pain in fighting a war.
Next we see Fllay tending to Kira in the cockpit and during the day. She is still just taking care of her “weapon” but she now clearly see how he is isolated and suffering (one thing she failed to realize earlier) and will remark this later in ep28.
Now they are on Orb. During family visits time she is the only one who is completely alone and isolated: she is the only one who doesn't have a family or anyone close to her. She return to her room and find Kira. She discovers that after all there is someone who is close to her and who loves her but now she is feeling guilty cause it's the same person she treated wrong and manipulated. She tries to take refuge in the pity element but Kira says cleary she is wrong: it's not pity. He says “We're wrong to begin with” and makes clear that he realized he was just being used and he saw her true self

And that's where we disagree.

and still cared for her. But Fllay cannot accept that and ask “What? What's that?” she cannot accept the Kira's Love since she knows she doesn't deserve it and runs away.

Or she can't accept being dumped. Whichever.

Note that's she is slowing open herself to Kira and growing sincere feelings for him but she is not clear (during the scene we have a little slide of all the previous scenes were Fllay and Kira shared strong feelings).
Side note: Ssigh at first was against this but later understood that Kira sincerely loved Fllay and as a good friend left her in his hands. If he thought Kira wasn't sincere there is no real explanation for Ssigh's behaviour.

"I don't want my ass kicked"? "I owe him my life anyway"?

Now it's time for Kira to go fight Athrun (when Tolle is killed)(ep 30). Fllay has reflected upon her actions and she talks to Kira again there is no more hate and revenge in her words and eyes.

No, mostly there is confusion. Which isn't too surprising.

She is ready to apologize

Or ask for explanations. We could have used some.

and restart like Kira wanted

We don't know what Kira wanted. I think he didn't either, beyond wanting a Talk, to make things clear between them.

BUT there is no time AA is under attack. Kira says “Not right now, when i return...” and smiles at her.
Other interesting things: during the battle Fllay is nothing like before, she is seriously concerned about Kira's safety (before she was happy to have him fight fight fight and DIE).
But that's unfortunately when Kira went MIA.
After the battle Fllay is desperately crying ... she has lost yet again a person who was close to her and loved her. She is again completely alone and in despair. End of ep 31
In ep32 Fllay tries to approach Ssigh yet again.... but Ssigh has seen through her: she actually liked Kira. Note that Fllay is denying this less and less as Ssigh remark the fact that she loved Kira. And when Fllay called Ssigh she clearly saw Kira for a moment.... and Tohru went to her and she got completely scared because now Kira is haunting her.
Now we got at Joshua. Fllay is separated from AA and ends up as a captive in Raww's hands. Here she sees with her own eyes the other side: coordinators are humans like her and they hate as much as she hated them. Yzak is a mirror.
Finally Kira and Fllay discovered that they are both alive. Kira went out of his way during a battle in his attempt to save her and got completely trashed. Athrun saved him. Fllay too is happy to hear that Kira is alive and wants to get together with him again. Now another focal point. Fllay talks with Natarle about her feelings in ep47. She is a completely different person now and want to “properly tells him...” what?

Him and the others, actually. ("Minna"). I think she wanted to apologize for being a conniving, manipulative dead weight, and start over and maybe be a true friend.

That she sincerely loves him “I'm sorry and i love you”.

Even if she said that, what'd she'd mean would be "I'm sorry and love me". Not quite the same. To the end, it's all about her.

Some people think out of convenience and ignoring all the past development that she just want to say “I'm sorry and gooodbye”. Did you really think that Fllay would have gone so much out of her way to just apologize?

What out of her way? She was already on Dominion. With a familiar face, even.

She obviously loves him! But that's not all. Earlier Anh Minh thought that her redemption was cheap (already proven false given the development so far)

Hm, no. You haven't proven anything.

and asked for some sacrifice and asked for “Conscious, deliberate choices to make sacrifices and take risks. Hard work and courage, both moral and physical.”
Now in her dialogue Natarle clearly said that Fllay had the opportunity to go back to the Moon Base in a safe place and she didn't need to be on the battlefield: Dominion was the flagship and it would be at the very center of the battle. But still Fllay clearly refused taking her risks and by sacrificing herself. She is not the Fllay she was before: she has changed. Now on her hate for Coordinators. Earlier she wanted all of them dead but we see later on she was disgusted by the massacre of coordinators at Boaz with nuclear weapons.
Next is Azrael on Dominon. He is threatening Natarle and the crew with a gun. Still Fllay put herself in danger and tried to save AA from being annihilated. Are you asking more than this?

Yes. Instead of just shouting a useless warning, I'd rather she stayed and fight.

She was puttin her life on the line with a gun pointed at her head! A truly magnificent scene and Natarle was great too.
And now the climax. Kira and Fllay reunited. They are trying to get together again but Kira made the fatal error to draw Raww's attention of the pod (idiot). He at first saves her and Fllay has big eyes full of tears and love for Kira. Kira is happy and is smiling at her WHEN Raww shot the pod down. That's when Kira cries and become a berserker.
And that's it. It was true love in the end and love was the natural result of all the things and development that they shared during the series.

He would have gone berserker for anybody. Yes, he was happy to see her. But what of it?

Sorry Lacus fans.... in GS Kira never really cared for Lacus THAT way he already had someone else in his mind.

Someone whom he didn't know. And even if Kira liked Flay... what of it?

But since on Newtype Lacus was the best female gundam character ever and gundam fans superficially hated Fllay's character from the bottom of their heart since she stole precious Kira's viriginity

Speaking only for myself (just as demongod speaks only for himself), I don't give a damn about Kira's virginity. For all I care, he could have given it to friggin Yzak.

she was killed and Kira was paired with Lacus in GSD.

There's a lot to hate about Flay, regardless of Lacus' existence.

True character development is no longer appreciated (and GSD is there to prove this) what fans want is perfect beings: Kira alone owning countless zakus with god aura (in GSD) and miss “I know all from the beginning” perfect Angel Lacus. Fine.

There are all kinds of acceptable reasons to make mistakes. But a selfish bitch is still a selfish bitch.

[otacu]

Yes, i was wrong. Completely wrong. I thought that at least Ahn Minh had a little more open mind but i guess i was proven wrong.
Even with evidence and dialogue under everyone eyes a fanboy is stilla fanboy after all. The premise is that Fllay is a bitch so no matter what in the end to Lacus fanboyis "a selfish bitch is still a selfish bitch." I guess you just wanted a childish flame in which you play on negating scenes and dialogues of the series. Even when it's clear that Kira was aware of Fllay's true self in episode 28 and that they "were wrong to begin with" (both of them) you still say no! Negate! And you even says he was DUMPING her! Are you for real? How is it even possible to be so biased? Last_hope was right it's already a miracle that i spend time to read posts where people enjoy debate based on questionable memories (demongod86) or just saying false things (Ahn Mihn) even with screenshot and after hearing a scene.

The premise was "Fllay is a bitch" so no matter what she DID or she SAID there is no place for reasoning or an agreement. That's just childish.

Earlier you asked for some kind of sacrifice or taking riks on Flla's part to show if her love was sincere. In ep 46 when she talked with Natarle she clearly said that she could have gone to Moon base in a safe place... but NO you negate this. It doesn't matter "it's still a selfish bitch". When there is a man gone mad as Azrael pointing a gun at her and she still tried to call AA to alert them ... NO again negation! "I'd rather she stayed and fight."

That's why i was talking about fanboyism earlier... you can give them evidence and what they just asked a moment ago but they will still negate it later on just for pride and to say "i was right, i was right". When you are proved wrong you just raise the ante... no matter how ridicolous the discussion can get.

When Kira says "We were wrong to begin with" you just refuse to acknoweldge that Kira has a brain and try to make him look like a retard ... "He was basically saying they went to each other for the wrong reasons, at a time in their lives where they were both confused and hurting."
If she was just hurted and confused she could have just stayed with Ssigh!!! But Ssigh wasn't Strike's pilot as he clearly showed. Stop making sorry excuses to back up your pride: Kira is not a retard.
When i finally proved that she loved him and she was searching for redemptions and start a new sincer love story with Kira.... you raise the ante “It's not enough! She should have been a hero to distinguish her from the villains and should have die trying to stop Azrael!”.
Get real! There are even normal and realistic people in anime! Would you have sacrificed yourself in the futile attempt to stop Azrael? Would have everyone on this forum done so? No, because there are heroes, villains and NORMAL people. Did Kuzzey get hated because he didn't have the courage to go fighting with AA? No he was a normal human and nobody despised him or labelled him as a villain or said he was “standing with the devils”.
Just because Lacus is perfect and like an “Angel” would have sacrificed herself you assume that Fllay and everyone should do the same? This is not a match to determine who is more kind and caring or who is fitted to be called “angel” and “hero”. Fllay was a normal girl who was put in the middle of a war and of course she tried to survive. You are condemning her for this! Get real! It's human nature, not everyone is a hero! She already had the courage to refuse to be placed in a safe base and to alert AA when Azrael was pointing a gun like a psycho. Of course there is a contrast with miss Virgin Mary Lacus.

I see here no reasoning, not a discussion. I prove a point you refuse it. I post screenshots or dialogues and you negate them and try to make Kira looking like a retarded idiot who wasn't aware of Fllay's true nature even when she said that she was using him clearly(And Kira clearly says “We were wrong to begin with”). When i said that she changed her ways and her mind like everyone else... you still want to hate her more and make her different from the rest .... “They just learnt a few things.”.... few things... sigh.

I see only hate and the strong will to PROVE that "a selfish bitch is still a selfish bitch” no matter what.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

“Oh, I cared about Flay. I just wanted her to be disfigured.”

It's not possible to discuss with fanboys i guess.
At least normal fans can now see screenshot and read the dialogues and find the truth no matter how much fanboys try to negate it until the very end.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by otacu

Yes, i was wrong. Completely wrong. I thought that at least Ahn Minh had a little more open mind but i guess i was proven wrong.

You're actually more unbending than I am. Not to mention more prone to dismiss people and arguments as "fanboys" and "fonboyism."

Even with evidence and dialogue under everyone eyes a fanboy is stilla fanboy after all. The premise is that Fllay is a bitch so no matter what in the end to Lacus fanboyis "a selfish bitch is still a selfish bitch."

I guess the bitch comment is undeserved. The selfish part isn't, though. And that remark was more a criticism of your lumping together the errors of Kira, Athrun and co with Flay's. They were very different in motivations. When you compare Flay to Yzak, you might have a point. But comparing her to Cagalli? You've got to be kidding.

I guess you just wanted a childish flame

I'm not the one calling people fanboys and dismissing their arguments on that basis.

in which you play on negating scenes and dialogues of the series.

Oh, woe is you. I refuse to accept you wild extrapolations of a few lines of dialogue.

Your interpretation is quite debatable, and I happen not to agree with it. Get over it.

Even when it's clear that Kira was aware of Fllay's true self in episode 28 and that they "were wrong to begin with" (both of them) you still say no! Negate!

Yes, I disagree with you. But you disagree with me, so I guess we're even.

Seriously, your insistance that it's clear that Kira saw through Flay seems more like wishful thinking than anything.

And you even says he was DUMPING her!

No, actually, what I said (or implied) is that Flay thought he was dumping her, or was about to. Because of the line "We should stop. We were wrong to begin with." Not that I'd entirely with Flay, there.

Are you for real? How is it even possible to be so biased?

How about asking yourself that question?

Last_hope was right it's already a miracle that i spend time to read posts where people enjoy debate based on questionable memories (demongod86) or just saying false things (Ahn Mihn) even with screenshot and after hearing a scene.

Catch me in an outright lie, sport.

The premise was "Fllay is a bitch" so no matter what she DID or she SAID there is no place for reasoning or an agreement. That's just childish.

Your premise is that Flay became a good person isn't any better.

Earlier you asked for some kind of sacrifice or taking riks on Flla's part to show if her love was sincere. In ep 46 when she talked with Natarle she clearly said that she could have gone to Moon base in a safe place... but NO you negate this.

I don't. I recognized it was something. I just said it was too little, and ultimately too much about her. She wanted forgiveness for the sake of her own soul. Like people going to Church for cheap, easy forgiveness, instead of actually mending their ways and trying their best to do right. She didn't want to do the right thing, because it was the right thing.

It doesn't matter "it's still a selfish bitch". When there is a man gone mad as Azrael pointing a gun at her and she still tried to call AA to alert them ... NO again negation! "I'd rather she stayed and fight."

Yes. With the two of them against Azrael, they might have won. And neither Natarle nor Mwu would have died. (OK, so Mwu didn't really die, but my point remains.) More importantly, she had that instant of decision, to choose what was more important: the Archangel, or her own little skin. She chose her skin.

That's why i was talking about fanboyism earlier... you can give them evidence and what they just asked a moment ago but they will still negate it later on just for pride and to say "i was right, i was right". When you are proved wrong you just raise the ante... no matter how ridicolous the discussion can get.

You just don't get it, do you? I talked about a price for redemption. The more you do, the more you risk, the more redemption you earn. Ultimately, despite your arguments (some of which were good, some of which were worthless), I find Flay's to be not much. Certainly not worth all that admiration.

When Kira says "We were wrong to begin with" you just refuse to acknoweldge that Kira has a brain and try to make him look like a retard ...

Kira could probably look at Windows' source code and debug it in 5 minutes. He's good and experienced with OSes. But I could put on a wig, speak with a high pitched voice, declare myself a woman, and he'd believe me. Because he just isn't that good with people. That doesn't make him an actual idiot, but it did make him an easy mark for Flay.

"He was basically saying they went to each other for the wrong reasons, at a time in their lives where they were both confused and hurting."
If she was just hurted and confused she could have just stayed with Ssigh!!! But Ssigh wasn't Strike's pilot as he clearly showed. Stop making sorry excuses to back up your pride: Kira is not a retard.

I don't even understand your "reasoning".

When i finally proved that she loved him and she was searching for redemptions and start a new sincer love story with Kira.... you raise the ante “It's not enough! She should have been a hero to distinguish her from the villains and should have die trying to stop Azrael!”.
Get real! There are even normal and realistic people in anime! Would you have sacrificed yourself in the futile attempt to stop Azrael? Would have everyone on this forum done so? No, because there are heroes, villains and NORMAL people. Did Kuzzey get hated because he didn't have the courage to go fighting with AA? No he was a normal human and nobody despised him or labelled him as a villain or said he was “standing with the devils”.

No, he "crawled to safety. " Like Flay.

And the differences between him and Flay: he didn't do anything he needed to be forgiven for, and nobody's asking me to admire him.

Just because Lacus is perfect and like an “Angel” would have sacrificed herself you assume that Fllay and everyone should do the same? This is not a match to determine who is more kind and caring or who is fitted to be called “angel” and “hero”. Fllay was a normal girl who was put in the middle of a war and of course she tried to survive. You are condemning her for this! Get real! It's human nature, not everyone is a hero! She already had the courage to refuse to be placed in a safe base and to alert AA when Azrael was pointing a gun like a psycho. Of course there is a contrast with miss Virgin Mary Lacus.

I'm not condemning her. I'm saying, if you want to write a story with a bad person who has an epiphany and becomes good, and makes me go "Yep, she was good after all", you're going to need your character to do a lot more than what Flay did.

I see here no reasoning, not a discussion. I prove a point you refuse it. I post screenshots or dialogues and you negate them and try to make Kira looking like a retarded idiot who wasn't aware of Fllay's true nature even when she said that she was using him clearly(And Kira clearly says “We were wrong to begin with”).

So what if he did? How do you go from there to "I totally know you're just a deceitful bitch"?

When i said that she changed her ways and her mind like everyone else... you still want to hate her more and make her different from the rest .... “They just learnt a few things.”.... few things... sigh.

Yes. Take Athrun, for example. At the beginning, he wanted an end to war and genocide. At the end? He wanted an end to war and genocide. He realised that following Zaft was the wrong way to achieve his objectives (which may not even have been true back at the beginning), but his core values didn't change.

I see only hate and the strong will to PROVE that "a selfish bitch is still a selfish bitch” no matter what.

You don't get me. I'm trying to make you understand you can't just compare selfish acts to selfless ones and say they're the same because they both happen to be mistaken.

It's not possible to discuss with fanboys i guess.
At least normal fans can now see screenshot and read the dialogues and find the truth no matter how much fanboys try to negate it until the very end.

Something we can agree with...

[otacu]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You're actually more unbending than I am. Not to mention more prone to dismiss people and arguments as "fanboys" and "fonboyism."

You sure? Evidence is there.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I guess the bitch comment is undeserved. The selfish part isn't, though. And that remark was more a criticism of your lumping together the errors of Kira, Athrun and co with Flay's. They were very different in motivations. When you compare Flay to Yzak, you might have a point. But comparing her to Cagalli? You've got to be kidding.

They were both wrong, they were doing the wrong thing and they changed for better. Cagalli went to do her private own childish war to satisfy her own ego of being useful to people and fight zaft as she later understood thanks to Uzumi sama.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm not the one calling people fanboys and dismissing their arguments on that basis.

I didn't dismiss your argument on that basis. It's you arguments that don't have basis.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Oh, woe is you. I refuse to accept you wild extrapolations of a few lines of dialogue.

Wild exttrapolations? omg.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Your interpretation is quite debatable, and I happen not to agree with it. Get over it.

Your excuse to the focus point just doesn't make sense. If she was just confused why did Fllay go to Kira when she already had Ssigh. Because he had the power. Ssigh understood that and tried to emulate Kira. And Kira understood that too... you are just too blind or biased. Kira is not a complete retard.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, I disagree with you. But you disagree with me, so I guess we're even.

See above. The dialogue is clear.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Seriously, your insistance that it's clear that Kira saw through Flay seems more like wishful thinking than anything.

Again See above. The dialogue is clear.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

No, actually, what I said (or implied) is that Flay thought he was dumping her, or was about to. Because of the line "We should stop. We were wrong to begin with." Not that I'd entirely with Flay, there.

There was no plurarl in Kira's line. Again you change the line according to your whishes.

I guess you have video hallucinations.... and to confirm this just hear what Kira is saying! The audio!

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

How about asking yourself that question?

I didn't change actual dialogues and scenes according to my point.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Catch me in an outright lie, sport.

Already done above..... again....

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Your premise is that Flay became a good person isn't any better.

I guess i was hallucinating in the last episodes of SEED and just imagined Fllay's development... right

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I don't. I recognized it was something. I just said it was too little, and ultimately too much about her. She wanted forgiveness for the sake of her own soul. Like people going to Church for cheap, easy forgiveness, instead of actually mending their ways and trying their best to do right. She didn't want to do the right thing, because it was the right thing.

Too little? It's always too little of course when you are biased. Cheap you say.... she could have just waited in a safe place like Kuzzey .... and yet she decided to stay on the flagship Dominion.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes. With the two of them against Azrael, they might have won. And neither Natarle nor Mwu would have died. (OK, so Mwu didn't really die, but my point remains.) More importantly, she had that instant of decision, to choose what was more important: the Archangel, or her own little skin. She chose her skin.

Yes, two girls against a man armed and without a plan.... right! You reall know how this work....
She already took the risk by alert AA but of course it was "too little" you demand her to sacrifice herself! Oooookay

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You just don't get it, do you? I talked about a price for redemption. The more you do, the more you risk, the more redemption you earn. Ultimately, despite your arguments (some of which were good, some of which were worthless), I find Flay's to be not much. Certainly not worth all that admiration.

I perfectly get it. You wanted her to die plain and simple: price for redemption. It wasn't enough what she did of course. Try to put yourself in her situation and we shall see who is a "villain" and how is a "hero" (normal people OF COURSE don't exist). Black or White. 1 or 0.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Kira could probably look at Windows' source code and debug it in 5 minutes. He's good and experienced with OSes. But I could put on a wig, speak with a high pitched voice, declare myself a woman, and he'd believe me. Because he just isn't that good with people. That doesn't make him an actual idiot, but it did make him an easy mark for Flay.

Kira was more than enough with everyone. You are just making him look like a retard to back up your weak previous posts.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

No, he "crawled to safety. " Like Flay.

And the differences between him and Flay: he didn't do anything he needed to be forgiven for, and nobody's asking me to admire him.

And here we are again.... it's always not enough right? She should become a hero out of nowhere just because she needed to be forgiven? She acted like a normal person would do .... you are just searching for epic heroes and villain and miss the fact that they are not the norm. In her little ways she didn't what she could and acted like a normal person.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm not condemning her. I'm saying, if you want to write a story with a bad person who has an epiphany and becomes good, and makes me go "Yep, she was good after all", you're going to need your character to do a lot more than what Flay did.

Always not enough right? She should have built Strike Freedom by herself or just killed Raww alone....
Heroes and villains right? Nothing in the middle.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So what if he did? How do you go from there to "I totally know you're just a deceitful bitch"?

Kira discovered why she went to him and already forgave her and loved her. Forgivness was already there in ep28 since Kira didn't want to dump her. She just wasn't ready atm to accept forgivness and Kira's love.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes. Take Athrun, for example. At the beginning, he wanted an end to war and genocide. At the end? He wanted an end to war and genocide. He realised that following Zaft was the wrong way to achieve his objectives (which may not even have been true back at the beginning), but his core values didn't change.

His core values changed. His faith in his father, his faith in the rightouness of Zaft cause, his faith in the military.... he completely changed. But i guess it's: he learnt "a few things" for you....

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You don't get me. I'm trying to make you understand you can't just compare selfish acts to selfless ones and say they're the same because they both happen to be mistaken.

We are not judging characters here we are understanding them. GSEED (and anime) wasn't about deciding who was wrong and sentence them to death. There were characters and a story. Yzak survived and did many awful things. Mwuu died and he didn't anything really wrong. We are not judges. We are not searching for Justice since there is no Justice.
But you still want to judge and condemn Fllay. And just because you hate her you not only judge her but condemn her to DEATH. Even considering only the first episodes and ignoring the second part death penalty is just too much... admit it ... you just hated her and wanted her death no matter what.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Something we can agree with...

Of course.
Please go on.... negate further....

[Demongod86]

Let's see here:

"Stop [the relationship]...Now. Let's just stop [the relationship]. We were wrong [to have this relationship] to begin with."

What else would Kira be saying stop to? What else would he be saying they were wrong with?

And come on, Kira would have tried to save anyone in that pod if what happened to Fllay happened to them, be it Tolle, Sai, etc...he'd still go after that pod and still go berserk if or when Rau dragooned that pod. Because he's generally a nice guy.

And otacu, I don't see why you see Lacus as a manipulative evil person. Yes, she has resources, and intelligence, and far more of both than most realistic people do, especially for someone her age. But that does not mean she's manipulative or that her intentions are anything less than pure. She does not bribe Kira with anything. We are given absolutely NO evidence WHATSOEVER that Lacus is anything short of pure-hearted. Yes, she entrusts Freedom to Kira. Yes, she doesn't go completely off-the-wall when she hears her father died (but she DOES cry into Kira's arms at the end of ep 42 was it? Or was it 43?). All we see Lacus doing is giving Freedom to Kira, and having a straight up talk with Athrun in 36 which makes him take Justice on a different mission.

Even in Destiny, Lacus is not manipulative. She starts off as being a little too used to her peacenik lifestyle but when things start moving faster again, both she and Kira make decisions that time around...of course, while she's away, Kira's decisions aren't exactly effective.

But those are other tangents.

You keep touting Fllay's changes and how she realizes she was wrong and all...but...isn't it TOO LATE for that? I mean on the one hand, we have Lacus that singlehandedly gave Kira just about everything he could ever need in terms of strength and even support, and then Fllay comes along and says "I want my Kira?"

The last time Kira and Fllay spoke, he basically was showing her the door on the relationship. So when he's trying to save Fllay, is that absolutely love? I'd think GUILT could play a part in it as well. I mean come on, he was going to talk over all of the past crap with her, then says oops, battle! And the next time he sees Archangel again, guess what, he's got a god suit, and Fllay's gone AWOL. So of course that's going to leave him feeling a bit guilty since he didn't put closure on things. And then of course she dies and he's unable to save her. I mean come on, here you have this genuinely nice guy that's so naive that he'll turn a blind eye to any sin committed against him and even love his enemy as a best friend (Athrun). So of course if he fails somebody or doesn't make somebody's world a bright and shiny one, he's not going to be too happy.

Yes, he might have held feelings for Fllay, but by the Realize arc, he was inching ever closer to Lacus, and after Fllay goes voom, well, it seems that Lacus has quite an easy time filling that gap (maybe because she already had gone part of the way, don't you think?). Also, didn't Kira kiss HER on the eternal right before he left? Yes, it was on the cheek, but as for refusing her kiss, they didn't even hook up throughout all of DESTINY! So I wouldn't cite the lack of physical affection between Kira and Lacus as anything, because it wasn't until GSD 13 that they had anything remotely close to a hug and not until GSD 39 that Kira was all over her in tight hugs.

Yes, Fllay did evolve as a character. But in the end, it wasn't enough. There were others STILL more evolved than she was. In terms of Fllay, she went a long way. In terms of the rest of the characters, well, she went from being miss whiny bitch to someone more acceptable but by no means stellar.

[Anh_Minh]

[QUOTE=otacuThey were both wrong, they were doing the wrong thing and they changed for better. Cagalli went to do her private own childish war to satisfy her own ego of being useful to people and fight zaft as she later understood thanks to Uzumi sama.[/quote]
It wasn't about her ego, it was about people dying. She didn't instigate it, so you can't call it "her own".

I didn't dismiss your argument on that basis.

Really? Could have fooled me there.

It's you arguments that don't have basis.

They have no less basis than yours. It's not my fault you can't see that.

Wild exttrapolations? omg.

Call when you have something worth saying.

Your excuse to the focus point just doesn't make sense. If she was just confused why did Fllay go to Kira when she already had Ssigh. Because he had the power. Ssigh understood that and tried to emulate Kira. And Kira understood that too... you are just too blind or biased. Kira is not a complete retard.

Yes. But he didn't understand the depth of her deception or the abscence of love. He friggin think she went to him because he was bawling his eyes out and felt pity.

See above. The dialogue is clear.

The dialogue, like everything, is subject to interpretation.

Again See above. The dialogue is clear.

Again, the dialogue, like everything, is subject to interpretation.

There was no plurarl in Kira's line. Again you change the line according to your whishes.

I guess you have video hallucinations.... and to confirm this just hear what Kira is saying! The audio!

I confess, I didn't look at the screencaps because, hey, I have my own sub, that I watched recently. And the exact line I have is:
"Stop it. Let's put an end to this. It was a mistake." I don't know Japanese enough to gauge the accuracy of the translation, but weren't you the one insisting on the plural of "boku tachi"?

I didn't change actual dialogues and scenes according to my point.

Neither did I.

Already done above..... again....

And once again you are mistaken!

I guess i was hallucinating in the last episodes of SEED and just imagined Fllay's development... right

Hallucinating? No. Exagerating and misinterpreting? That's another question.

Too little? It's always too little of course when you are biased. Cheap you say.... she could have just waited in a safe place like Kuzzey .... and yet she decided to stay on the flagship Dominion.

Yes, too little. When you do something really, really wrong, just saying "oops, sorry" isn't going to cut it.

I don't have the time to detail right now, but I don't exactly agree that staying with Dominion was the great act of courage you think it is. The Lunar base, in its own way, was almost as scary.

Yes, two girls against a man armed and without a plan.... right! You reall know how this work....
She already took the risk by alert AA but of course it was "too little" you demand her to sacrifice herself! Oooookay

I don't demand she sacrifices herself. I demand she stand up for friendship and the loyalty she supposedly had for the AA crew. And yes, take risks, but it's not like the AA wasn't in immediate danger of being annihilated.

I don't agree that it was hopeless. Natarle was better trained than Azrael. And if Flay had used her own two hands and teeth on Azrael's gunhand, she might have taken his weapon away from him. Besides, if she'd shown the example, the rest of the bridgecrew might have followed.

I perfectly get it. You wanted her to die plain and simple: price for redemption.

No, but I do want her to stand up for her so-called newfound love and loyalty and courage.

It wasn't enough what she did of course. Try to put yourself in her situation and we shall see who is a "villain" and how is a "hero" (normal people OF COURSE don't exist). Black or White. 1 or 0.

I have nothing against what you call normal people. But if someone starts as a villain, she'd better end as a hero if she wants me to cheer for her.

Kira was more than enough with everyone. You are just making him look like a retard to back up your weak previous posts.

Or like a nerdish, socially awkward character.

And here we are again.... it's always not enough right? She should become a hero out of nowhere just because she needed to be forgiven? She acted like a normal person would do .... you are just searching for epic heroes and villain and miss the fact that they are not the norm. In her little ways she didn't what she could and acted like a normal person.

I don't want a story where someone can use deceit to mess a person's like and get away scottfree, no. I know that IRL people do worse all the time and get away with it. I don't see the need to watch it in anime. And I'm certainly not going to cheer when it happens.

Always not enough right? She should have built Strike Freedom by herself or just killed Raww alone....
Heroes and villains right? Nothing in the middle.

She should have fought tooth and nail. I'm not asking the impossible, there.

Kira discovered why she went to him and already forgave her and loved her. Forgivness was already there in ep28 since Kira didn't want to dump her. She just wasn't ready atm to accept forgivness and Kira's love.

Again with ep 28? It doesn't say what you claim it does. Get over it.

His core values changed. His faith in his father, his faith in the rightouness of Zaft cause, his faith in the military.... he completely changed. But i guess it's: he learnt "a few things" for you....

Those aren't "core" values ( do you know what "core" is). They're harldy values at all, unless you're one of those "my country right or wrong" people. If they had been at the core of his being, he wouldn't have been so conflicted at the beginning, and wouldn't have tried so hard and repeatedly to protect Kira. He wouldn't have expressed disagreement with his father.

We are not judging characters here we are understanding them. GSEED (and anime) wasn't about deciding who was wrong and sentence them to death. There were characters and a story. Yzak survived and did many awful things. Mwuu died and he didn't anything really wrong. We are not judges. We are not searching for Justice since there is no Justice.

We always judge. You say that in the end, Flay wasn't a waste of air. I say she was. Our understanding of her differs. That's all there is to it.

But you still want to judge and condemn Fllay. And just because you hate her you not only judge her but condemn her to DEATH. Even considering only the first episodes and ignoring the second part death penalty is just too much... admit it ... you just hated her and wanted her death no matter what.

By the end I didn't care either way about her survival. But you're asking more than survival: you're asking me to care positively about her. And I say, she hasn't earned it.

Of course.
Please go on.... negate further....

Sure. That's how the game is played.

[otacu]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Let's see here:
"Stop [the relationship]...Now. Let's just stop [the relationship]. We were wrong [to have this relationship] to begin with."

Yes, that how delusional a Lacus fanboy can get.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

What else would Kira be saying stop to? What else would he be saying they were wrong with?

She just started to cry like puppy and he wanted her to stop. My god! Just go for the easiest and most plausible choice and don't add convenient words when needed as always!!!

Originally Posted by Demongod86

And come on, Kira would have tried to save anyone in that pod if what happened to Fllay happened to them, be it Tolle, Sai, etc...he'd still go after that pod and still go berserk if or when Rau dragooned that pod. Because he's generally a nice guy.

He is a nice person? Of course! He was having hallucinations of Fllay when he saw Lacus! He completely lost his cool when he discovered Fllay was alive! He cried and cried and cried for Fllay on Eternal!
I know it's difficult to accept the fact that "a person" loved Fllay since YOU hate her so much but come one the is a limit to this farce!

Originally Posted by Demongod86

And otacu, I don't see why you see Lacus as a manipulative evil person. Yes, she has resources, and intelligence, and far more of both than most realistic people do, especially for someone her age. But that does not mean she's manipulative or that her intentions are anything less than pure. She does not bribe Kira with anything. We are given absolutely NO evidence WHATSOEVER that Lacus is anything short of pure-hearted. Yes, she entrusts Freedom to Kira. Yes, she doesn't go completely off-the-wall when she hears her father died (but she DOES cry into Kira's arms at the end of ep 42 was it? Or was it 43?). All we see Lacus doing is giving Freedom to Kira, and having a straight up talk with Athrun in 36 which makes him take Justice on a different mission.

Did i say she was evil??? Yes, i said she was manipulative but not evil.... i repeat (AGAIN)... i don't hate Lacus. I'm not blinded like someone else here.... i never said that i wante her disfigured of dead. Because i try to understand the character and i don't play "judge" to sentence to death every character i hate in my search of "Justice".
You said earlier that she gave Freedom to Kira NOT because he knew he was the ultimate coordinator and knew what he would have made BUT because she loved him and just needed "strength". How can you even say this? It would be just stupid of her to entrust so lightly god-gundam and top secret technology (the NJC!!!).... she already knew he was going to play according to his plan!

Originally Posted by Demongod86

You keep touting Fllay's changes and how she realizes she was wrong and all...but...isn't it TOO LATE for that? I mean on the one hand, we have Lacus that singlehandedly gave Kira just about everything he could ever need in terms of strength and even support, and then Fllay comes along and says "I want my Kira?"

Again.... "too late"? You are again trying to judge and not understand! You are trying to find Justice where there is no justice. Good people died. Bad people survived. There was not ultimate Justice in GS! It's just you as Lacus fanboy who hate Fllay and just wante her death no matter what to have toyboy Kira all for Lacus .....

Originally Posted by Demongod86

The last time Kira and Fllay spoke, he basically was showing her the door on the relationship. So when he's trying to save Fllay, is that absolutely love? I'd think GUILT could play a part in it as well. I mean come on, he was going to talk over all of the past crap with her, then says oops, battle! And the next time he sees Archangel again, guess what, he's got a god suit, and Fllay's gone AWOL. So of course that's going to leave him feeling a bit guilty since he didn't put closure on things. And then of course she dies and he's unable to save her. I mean come on, here you have this genuinely nice guy that's so naive that he'll turn a blind eye to any sin committed against him and even love his enemy as a best friend (Athrun). So of course if he fails somebody or doesn't make somebody's world a bright and shiny one, he's not going to be too happy.

The door was of course one of your many delusions.First it was "there was no dialogue" then it was "he just dumped her" then it was "Ssigh said to her to STFU and GTFU". Fine go on by yourself. What's next?

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Yes, he might have held feelings for Fllay, but by the Realize arc, he was inching ever closer to Lacus, and after Fllay goes voom, well, it seems that Lacus has quite an easy time filling that gap (maybe because she already had gone part of the way, don't you think?). Also, didn't Kira kiss HER on the eternal right before he left? Yes, it was on the cheek, but as for refusing her kiss, they didn't even hook up throughout all of DESTINY! So I wouldn't cite the lack of physical affection between Kira and Lacus as anything, because it wasn't until GSD 13 that they had anything remotely close to a hug and not until GSD 39 that Kira was all over her in tight hugs.

So now is "maybe" he held feelings for Fllay? And now "Fllay "did change" but it was "too late" or she "didn't do enough"?
Sigh

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Yes, Fllay did evolve as a character. But in the end, it wasn't enough. There were others STILL more evolved than she was. In terms of Fllay, she went a long way. In terms of the rest of the characters, well, she went from being miss whiny bitch to someone more acceptable but by no means stellar.

You are searching for a hero too? Of course, everyone should act like miss perfect right?
Realistic or normal people just don't exist. There are just Villains and Heroes, right? In the end Fllay evolved but it was, of course, not enough for Lacus lovers.... so she she was a Villain and "on the same side of the devils"..... she stayed on Dominion when she could have just go to a safe place... but it wasn't enough! Maybe she should have stolen a gundam and went to battle to aid Kira?
.... she alerted AA that Dominion was about to destroying them when she had a gun pointed at her.... but it STILL wasn't enough.... "she should have fight Azrael!". Of course!

Now .... look back at what this thread was and where it all began.... complete lies about Fllay were told.... dialogues were conveniently and completely forgotten.... lines were changed.... Kira was depicted as a completed retard.... silly excuses where made to negate the fact that Kira saw through Fllay.... a complete step by step explanation of Kira-Fllay development was wrote.... not once... twice (by me but there was even the excellent one of Sniper).... screenshots were post... there is audio evidence....

And here we are with Lacus Fanboys that constatly try to change lines and make up silly excuses.... "Yes, but maybe.... that's quite debatable.... maybe Kira was... so maybe in the end Fllay changed but still wasn't enough..... she should have done this.... she should have said that... Kira was too good for his own good.... but Kira is a complete retard so he didn't know.... yes maybe a little but not completely....
[...]
Really, stop the flame and just go check back the thread and the series without changing scenes and lines. Gundam and Lacus fans will find their answers..... Lacus fanboys won't.


Edit: as before Anh_Minh post is not even worth an answer right now. He is still being delusional about he line he changed before. I posted an accurate translation with screenshot an he posted "Stop it. Let's put an end to this. It was a mistake.".....sigh just pay attention to the audio! Boku tachi... WE were wrong to begin with! Of course you remove what you don't like, right?....
As i wrote to your colleague. Just go back check this thread.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Sure. That's how the game is played.

Sigh...

[Eidolon Sniper]

@ Anh_Minh (please refer to your anwering post to what I wrote in the last page before this...)

- I only make those phrases out in bold so it would be easier for you to read what I'm trying to get at. And I also make the phrases in your own posts as bold so you know what I'm replying to.

- What are you trying to get at? I only said if Fllay didn't like or didn't know Kira that much as to say something beyond a simple hello, then she could just simply avoid him, try making up excuses so she won't get to talk to him, etc., etc.

- And the fact remains that she STILL noticed him.

- They knew enough that Kira had a crush on Fllay. And maybe because of those group date things, or group outings, if Ssigh was bold enough to ask Fllay out to hang out with them that is why they got to know her a little, Kira most especially. You really don't need to be able to make a score or whatever it is to get to know somebody you like. It could also be by trying to get closer to that person by just being with him, and try finding out what he or she likes best, and does he or she likes talking to you, etc., etc.

Since this is all assumptions on my part, because it was never really explained in full detail, only hinted at it, you also have no right to say that it couldn't have happened.

- Well, she actually made sure they were alive in the Desert Arc. And what can you expect from a very important official's spoiled daughter who was sheltered from everything, even war? She changed not just because of the circumstances, but because she also had to. Which could be interpreted as trying to fit in with whatever situation she was in, FAST. She wasn't a narrow minded bitch at the end, and that is what counts the most. She changed.

- She just realized Kira went MIA and well, maybe for her own comfort's sake, or whatever it is that you're trying to get at here. But Ssigh saw through it. And she denied heatedly that she wasn't in love with Kira or whatever. But it was there.

- And you are convinced of LACUS'? I have to admit that it is "teenagers' love", but it was a relationship that was quite normal for any teenager out there. Kira and Fllay went through a relationship that was far from perfect, because really, no relationship is perfect. You get to argue about certain things all the time, and married couples drift apart even though they were so deeply in love before. So what is wrong with their (Kira Fllay) relationship? It was given enough depth that both characters suffered greatly because of it; we all have to admit that everything isn't so lovey dovey when we're in love. We have to go through the heartaches, the pain, the tears. Then if after everything else that person is still with you, then that's it.

- It was a love that actually developed from hate or whatever. It was something that went through all things "teenagers' love" went through, in the real sense of the word or phrase (in this matter). They didn't get from point A to point B that ridiculously fast without any development on both their parts, whatsoever. So how could you claim that it hasn't any depth?

- Her passiveness could be attributed to her confusion, and given if she was still a rabid Coordinator hater, she STILL would try doing something stupid rather than be in a ship filled with them.

- And you can't also make that claim on Fllay. I am not going by that "war is just all about people in different uniforms killing in other" bit. It's not just about killing, it's also about changing, it's about knowing something more of those things you were formerly prejudiced about and acting foolish for even try thinking it after. It's not because of one idealism that should outweigh ALL others just for the sake of bringing order, or the various other reasons why there IS a war, and NOT just because they're wearing different uniforms. And Fllay saw through it all: she changed because of the war, made her rethink about her former prejudiced idiotic thinking about war and Coordinators, and most probably, her beliefs. Instead of a just there Lacus, we have an in there Fllay. And that shows part of the beauty of her character's strength.

- If their asking of her opinions still don't show that MUCH...

- And you can't CLAIM that Fllay already was a psychotic bitch pre-SEED, because you also don't know if she actually WAS. War brings change in people, good or bad. Fllay changed to being bad, then after going through a series of situations that she was in, changed into somebody who started to realize the things she probably never imagined as being there before and finally admitting it and striving to make up for them for good.

- What's with those quotation marks then?

It was shown throughout SEED that Kira and Fllay shared much, not just the sex. Their relationship began from one way, to two way (almost). And I also said that getting over someone isn't that easy as you think, unless of course you have already experienced something like it so that you could actually say that it IS easy.

- Um, seeing Fllay in most of his flashbacks give me enough evidence to guess...

And oddly enough...Athrun's.

- It's for this reason that is why Lacus is such a one dimensional character for me. Granted that she cried, and...um...threw herself into Kira's arms...it's as if nothing major happened when she led the Clyne Faction and Three Ship Alliance later. It's as like the Copernicus shopping spree.

- Wow, and Lacus could read minds too?

It wasn't hinted at, or there isn't any evidence (unless it's part of the Astray manga) tha Siegel Clyne put up the Clyne Faction; it was Lacus. And unless Lacus was doing astral body projections while her dad talks to Mr. Zala, then there is no way in hell woyuld she know that he wanted all out annihilation for the Naturals; it only became very obvious when he fired the GENESIS and started rambling like mad.

- Isn't it weird for a supposedly perfect Pink Princess to act SO out of character just because she wanted a particular man to come back to her?

[Demongod86]

Otacu, I'd agree that Kira was telling Fllay to stop crying since it was a mistake, but what about the "we're wrong to begin with..." part? Do you REALLY think that's all talking about her bawling? I'd find it MUCH more plausible to believe he was talking about their relationship.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by otacu

Edit: as before Anh_Minh post is not even worth an answer right now. He is still being delusional about he line he changed before. I posted an accurate translation with screenshot an he posted "Stop it. Let's put an end to this. It was a mistake.".....sigh just pay attention to the audio! Boku tachi... WE were wrong to begin with! Of course you remove what you don't like, right?....
As i wrote to your colleague. Just go back check this thread.


Sigh...

First, make up your mind. Is there a plural in Kira's line or not? Second, if you're so insistent that he's saying "we were wrong", please explain what they were wrong about. Third, when I posted "Stop it. Let's put an end to this. It was a mistake.", I was quoting verbatim, after watching the scene about five seconds before posting. If I knew how to make a screencap I'd just make one.

[otacu]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

First, make up your mind. Is there a plural in Kira's line or not? Second, if you're so insistent that he's saying "we were wrong", please explain what they were wrong about. Third, when I posted "Stop it. Let's put an end to this. It was a mistake.", I was quoting verbatim, after watching the scene about five seconds before posting. If I knew how to make a screencap I'd just make one.

sigh... now ... again....
You wrote "We should stop. We were wrong to begin with."

There was NO "we" in the "we should stop". You added it.
The plural was LATER in the "We were wrong to begin with".

Fllay begins to cry like a fountain -> Kira says "stop" (and repeat it)
>PAUSE<
New sentence and here there is the plural (bokutachi) "We were wrong to begin with." (so he knew she was wrong and she went to him just because he had the power Sai didn't have..... there was a whole episode about this!)

He knew and still loved her. Yes, because he was kind. Now, if YOU think he was TOO kind that's fine. It's your personal opinion. But Kira choosed to love her. Fullstop. In your mind he is still an idiot cause he was in love. Fine It's your personal opinion.

Pay a little attention to the audio.
I cannot believe this.... i had to actually spell every single word one by one!
Do i need to explain every single word until the end of the world? I explained more than enough in previous posts despite the constant efforts to change and forget lines and scenes. Just go back and read or watch the actual scenes without adding fantasy words when needed and without being biased by your clear objective in mind ("Fllay must die!").

It can be very tiring to repeat me so much and try to explain such simple things like as character's line. Over and over again....:

[epyon96]

Originally Posted by otacu

sigh... now ... again....
You wrote "We should stop. We were wrong to begin with."

There was NO "we" in the "we should stop". You added it.
The plural was LATER in the "We were wrong to begin with".

Fllay begins to cry like a fountain -> Kira says "stop" (and repeat it)
>PAUSE<
New sentence and here there is the plural (bokutachi) "We were wrong to begin with." (so he knew she was wrong and she went to him just because he had the power Sai didn't have..... there was a whole episode about this!)

He knew and still loved her. Yes, because he was kind. Now, if YOU think he was TOO kind that's fine. It's your personal opinion. But Kira choosed to love her. Fullstop. In your mind he is still an idiot cause he was in love. Fine It's your personal opinion.

Pay a little attention to the audio.
I cannot believe this.... i had to actually spell every single word one by one!
Do i need to explain every single word until the end of the world? I explained more than enough in previous posts despite the constant efforts to change and forget lines and scenes. Just go back and read or watch the actual scenes without adding fantasy words when needed and without being biased by your clear objective in mind ("Fllay must die!").

It can be very tiring to repeat me so much and try to explain such simple things like as character's line. Over and over again....:

I don't mean to spoil your "matter of fact" rant but just keep in mind the Japanese language is different from English.

First of all, I agree with the translation with the subject "we" in both sentences. In Japanese, subjects are often dropped in favor for shorter spoken sentences. But the meaning is still there. Because "Boku tachi" was spoken in the second sentence, it is implied in the first too. You cannot translate Japanese sentence word for word and expect to get the full meaning. You need to translate it in context - especially for spoken dialague.

Thats the reason why phrases like "genki desu" can be translated into "I am well" even though there is no "I" in the sentence.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

@ Anh_Minh (please refer to your anwering post to what I wrote in the last page before this...)

- I only make those phrases out in bold so it would be easier for you to read what I'm trying to get at. And I also make the phrases in your own posts as bold so you know what I'm replying to.

It actually makes it harder to read the rest. Bold font is to be used parsimoniously.

- What are you trying to get at? I only said if Fllay didn't like or didn't know Kira that much as to say something beyond a simple hello, then she could just simply avoid him, try making up excuses so she won't get to talk to him, etc., etc.

And I find it weird to think like that. Why go out of your way to avoid someone you don't find repellent? It's not like Kira ever made a pest of himself. On the contrary, he seemed to be self-effacing in her presence.

Saying "hello"'s nothing. I've had whole conversations with people I neither liked nor disliked, and actually knew less than I claim Flay and Kira knew each other. Haven't you ever made conversation with strangers, or semi-strangers?

- And the fact remains that she STILL noticed him.

Yeah, well, I don't call merely remember someone's face (and maybe not even his name) "noticing" someone.

- They knew enough that Kira had a crush on Fllay. And maybe because of those group date things, or group outings, if Ssigh was bold enough to ask Fllay out to hang out with them that is why they got to know her a little, Kira most especially. You really don't need to be able to make a score or whatever it is to get to know somebody you like. It could also be by trying to get closer to that person by just being with him, and try finding out what he or she likes best, and does he or she likes talking to you, etc., etc.

What are you trying to get at? That they've sometimes hung out together with a large group? I'm not trying to deny that.

Since this is all assumptions on my part, because it was never really explained in full detail, only hinted at it, you also have no right to say that it couldn't have happened.

True enough, I suppose, but you can't deny my guesses either.

- Well, she actually made sure they were alive in the Desert Arc.

What?

And what can you expect from a very important official's spoiled daughter who was sheltered from everything, even war? She changed not just because of the circumstances, but because she also had to. Which could be interpreted as trying to fit in with whatever situation she was in, FAST. She wasn't a narrow minded bitch at the end, and that is what counts the most. She changed.

Yeah, ok, she changed. Give her a cookie. But I still fail to see what's so great about what she became in the end.

- She just realized Kira went MIA and well, maybe for her own comfort's sake, or whatever it is that you're trying to get at here. But Ssigh saw through it. And she denied heatedly that she wasn't in love with Kira or whatever. But it was there.

What was there? Denial?

Love? Maybe. But, as I've tried to explain, while she no doubt came to care for Kira in the end, just calling it "love" and accepting it without reserve as a great, pure, selfless thing is... unwise.

- And you are convinced of LACUS'?

Not really. Whatever made you think that?

Seriously, what's with you guys and Lacus? Why does she appear in that discussion at all?

I have to admit that it is "teenagers' love", but it was a relationship that was quite normal for any teenager out there.

Normal teenager relationships are short lived. They end, and the kids get over it. They're not the unending love stories you're trying to ascribe to Kira and Flay.

Kira and Fllay went through a relationship that was far from perfect, because really, no relationship is perfect. You get to argue about certain things all the time, and married couples drift apart even though they were so deeply in love before. So what is wrong with their (Kira Fllay) relationship? It was given enough depth that both characters suffered greatly because of it; we all have to admit that everything isn't so lovey dovey when we're in love. We have to go through the heartaches, the pain, the tears. Then if after everything else that person is still with you, then that's it.

They didn't get a chance for that. They started out using each other, and Flay didn't even care for Kira. And Kira never saw it. If she'd come clean, as she'd intended to, and Kira forgave her, then maybe you could really say they loved each other and shit. (Which is more than she deserves, but whatever.) But Rau saw to it it didn't happen.

- It was a love that actually developed from hate or whatever. It was something that went through all things "teenagers' love" went through, in the real sense of the word or phrase (in this matter). They didn't get from point A to point B that ridiculously fast without any development on both their parts, whatsoever. So how could you claim that it hasn't any depth?

Because it seems to me that they hardly knew each other at all. Hardly looked at each other for what they were. To her, Kira was first her weapon, then her protector, then her... I'm not sure I can express it correctly. Her cross? Her penance?

- Her passiveness could be attributed to her confusion, and given if she was still a rabid Coordinator hater, she STILL would try doing something stupid rather than be in a ship filled with them.

I don't think her hate for coordinators ever ran bone deep. The initial yuck probably came from her aping her dad and her peers, as kids will do. It was worsened when Zaft killed her father, of course, but she never was that heroic about her death.

If you will, she's like a KKK member who's all contempt and murderous intent when she's holding the shotgun and the Black man is alone, but wouldn't say a word when alone, unarmed in a roomful of Black men.

- And you can't also make that claim on Fllay. I am not going by that "war is just all about people in different uniforms killing in other" bit. It's not just about killing, it's also about changing, it's about knowing something more of those things you were formerly prejudiced about and acting foolish for even try thinking it after. It's not because of one idealism that should outweigh ALL others just for the sake of bringing order, or the various other reasons why there IS a war, and NOT just because they're wearing different uniforms. And Fllay saw through it all: she changed because of the war, made her rethink about her former prejudiced idiotic thinking about war and Coordinators, and most probably, her beliefs. Instead of a just there Lacus, we have an in there Fllay. And that shows part of the beauty of her character's strength.

I don't see what you're getting at. Yes, Flay saw some of the war. Yes, she finally came to see it was a Bad, Horrible Thing. Maybe she even saw that the Bastard Them are actually the same as the Righteous Us. But from there to claim "she understands all about war"? Especially since she never struck me as a great thinker of her times...

- If their asking of her opinions still don't show that MUCH...

What? I'll have to relook at my post.

- And you can't CLAIM that Fllay already was a psychotic bitch pre-SEED, because you also don't know if she actually WAS.

Did I? I didn't mean it like that, then. Not the psychotic part, anyway.

In the abscence of more data, I'm working by stereotypes (doesn't work so well IRL, but since it's a story...) Flay's seem to be "rich, spoiled girl. Pretty and popular, knows it, likes it, uses it."

War brings change in people, good or bad. Fllay changed to being bad, then after going through a series of situations that she was in, changed into somebody who started to realize the things she probably never imagined as being there before and finally admitting it and striving to make up for them for good.

As I told Otacu: it's nice she grew up some, but when all's said and done, I'm not that impressed with the end result.

- What's with those quotation marks then?

Same, I'll have to reread.

It was shown throughout SEED that Kira and Fllay shared much, not just the sex. Their relationship began from one way, to two way (almost). And I also said that getting over someone isn't that easy as you think, unless of course you have already experienced something like it so that you could actually say that it IS easy.

Yeah, I'm sure seeing her shot like that was pretty traumatic and deprived Kira of closure. But heh, two years. Maybe medication. (That'd explain his expressionlessness throughout GSD. He was half-sedated all that time. )

- Um, seeing Fllay in most of his flashbacks give me enough evidence to guess...

And oddly enough...Athrun's.

- It's for this reason that is why Lacus is such a one dimensional character for me. Granted that she cried, and...um...threw herself into Kira's arms...it's as if nothing major happened when she led the Clyne Faction and Three Ship Alliance later. It's as like the Copernicus shopping spree.

Must reread!

- Wow, and Lacus could read minds too?

No, why?

It wasn't hinted at, or there isn't any evidence (unless it's part of the Astray manga) tha Siegel Clyne put up the Clyne Faction; it was Lacus.

I find that implausible. The whole thing seemed to have been set up well in advance of Sygel's death. Contacts were made with his close associates. And it's called the "Clyne" faction, not the "Lacus" faction, while most everyone call her "Lacus-sama", not "Clyne-sama".

Also, he was a powerful politician. She was just an idol and a powerful politician's daughter.

All that to say, I think she inherited the faction, she didn't create it.

(Also, I read somewhere that in the manga, the one who gave Kira Freedom was Sygel, not Lacus. Which makes slightly more sense.)

And unless Lacus was doing astral body projections while her dad talks to Mr. Zala, then there is no way in hell woyuld she know that he wanted all out annihilation for the Naturals; it only became very obvious when he fired the GENESIS and started rambling like mad.

Hm, no. He was already talking about it far before that, though not in as obviously crazy a way. And, quite simply, her father could have told her afterwards.

- Isn't it weird for a supposedly perfect Pink Princess to act SO out of character just because she wanted a particular man to come back to her?

What?



EDIT: after rereading my post, those parts I didn't understand at first still don't make sense.

[otacu]

Originally Posted by epyon96

I don't mean to spoil your "matter of fact" rant but just keep in mind the Japanese language is different from English.

First of all, I agree with the translation with the subject "we" in both sentences. In Japanese, subjects are often dropped in favor for shorter spoken sentences. But the meaning is still there. Because "Boku tachi" was spoken in the second sentence, it is implied in the first too. You cannot translate Japanese sentence word for word and expect to get the full meaning. You need to translate it in context - especially for spoken dialague.

Thats the reason why phrases like "genki desu" can be translated into "I am well" even though there is no "I" in the sentence.

I'm fully aware that subjects can be implicit. But if you recall
Fllay cry -> Kira says "stop"
PAUSE
"We were wrong to begin with".

Thats' the context.

If the subject was the the same in both sentences he didn't need to make it explicit in the second one. It was in the context, right? But he needed to make it clear the subjects were different.

Your post about Japanese language was accurate but translation was already taken into context.

And later actions, behaviours and scenes of Kira were absolutely not the ones of a man who has just dumped a girl like a bitch as someone tried to imagine. Like, for example, the scene in ep32 where Kira kindly ask Fllay to wait and leaves while smiling at her. These actions are just a confirmation.



I REALLY hope this will be the last one .... It's fine if YOU don't like her but let Kira free to love her.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Since this is going to take up a lot of space, I put it in spoiler tags...

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It actually makes it harder to read the rest. Bold font is to be used parsimoniously.

The point is to read the ones in bold, as it is what I am trying to say to you.

And I find it weird to think like that. Why go out of your way to avoid someone you don't find repellent? It's not like Kira ever made a pest of himself. On the contrary, he seemed to be self-effacing in her presence.

Well, believe it or not, there ARE people who are just like that... And it's not because she finds Kira repellent or whatever. She just doesn't find him interesting to talk to, if she went ahead and tried avoiding him.

Saying "hello"'s nothing. I've had whole conversations with people I neither liked nor disliked, and actually knew less than I claim Flay and Kira knew each other. Haven't you ever made conversation with strangers, or semi-strangers?

Yes, I talk to strangers and semi-strangers as I could talk to other people who I'm close with; it's not any different, they're still people. And I talk to people I like and I dislike. But I'm a girl who doesn't dislike people, even if they don't like me.

But the fact that Fllay hugged Kira when they met (like a "thank goodness" hug), it would make you think that they could also be sharing more than just hellos when they talk. Not unless Fllay acts like that whenever a cute guy's around... I mean, Kira knowing Fllay would never do something like that that was why he was surprised...

Yeah, well, I don't call merely remember someone's face (and maybe not even his name) "noticing" someone.

um, I think you are getting it all wrong. Maybe in the start, they were just mere acquaintances, which evolved into something that was deeper. Isn't it annoying/self-esteem draining when you talk to your crush and then he or she forgets all about you 10 seconds later? Well, maybe he or she had a lot on his mind. But, if your crush noticed you enough as to remember your name/face/even the things you talked about in the last 4 hours and you're not just some random fly on the wall...WOW...he/she NOTICED me! Unless, of course, you're a close friend of the person they REALLY like. But anyway, just think about it. Remember that Fllay isn't part of their group per se; she belongs to the younger batch. And with many people Ssigh introduced to him as his friends, she noticed Kira as to remember his name and how he looked like. It was heaven for him. And if Fllay wasn't interested in any of Ssigh's friends and only go out with her clique, would she make an effort to remember all Ssigh's friends, and Kira, in particular? And given that Fllay was extremely popular at their technical college (with the male population maybe), it was hinted enough that she already noticed Kira in spite of all those boys who had huge crushes on her.

What are you trying to get at? That they've sometimes hung out together with a large group? I'm not trying to deny that.

Yes, they might have been doing things like that. They are friends, right?

True enough, I suppose, but you can't deny my guesses either.

That they didn't know each other well enough as to develop some sort of interest in each other? Kira certainly was interested in Fllay (because it was already well established that he had a crush on her at the beginning of the series), and Fllay at first got interested in him because he was a Coordinator and she could use him to exact revenge on all those other Coordinators who killed her father. Which changed.

What?
Yeah, ok, she changed. Give her a cookie. But I still fail to see what's so great about what she became in the end.

Sigh...getting through that sort of shit is pretty tough for a spoiled brat, don't you think? She was forced to suddenly grow up without her daddy who was the center of her universe (and apparently, she was the center of his as well), being with people who could only hint at what she was going through right now, because their parents are alive/etc. and of course do not know the pain of her loss. Yes, we could feel sorry for a person going through that hell, but we really don't know what they're going through, BECAUSE we haven't been in a situation like that as to fully understand and grasp why the hell she or he's so pissed off at the entire world. It was something very new for Fllay, so she had no idea what she's going to do next. She decided to seek revenge by using Kira, in order to lessen her pain somewhat, and get the satisfaction of being able to repay what the Coordinators did, and she wanted to see that purpose to the very end until Kira himself dies in the process. But, after seeing Ssigh go absolutely nuts and tried taking the Strike out by himself and Kira sleeping in the Strike cockpit, she started having second thoughts about what she was doing. She still tried manipulating Kira, but this time it was starting to lose its steam, because she was now getting confused. That ep in Orb when Kira told her that what they were doing was wrong and that they had to end it, Fllay thought at first that she was going to lose the only chance she had to get back at the Coordinators whom she hated so much. But by then, she must've gotten very confused. She must've mixed up her feelings of revenge/hatred/guilt/regret pretty much. Fllay wanted to say something to Kira before he left for the Aegis showdown with Athrun after Nicol got killed, and she looked kind of worried/unsure and was the very picture of someone who wanted to say something to Kira. Maybe she wanted to say sorry and that she wanted them to get back together on a clean slate. It never happened that Kira would talk back to her later after he got back. She tried killing Dearka, because he was one of those Coordinators who killed Kira, which she must've thought was the one responsible for making her lose that last opportunity/chance she had for revenge on them. Miriallia stopped her. Fllay then sunk into deep depression or whatever that made her think of all the times that Kira was nice to her. She tried getting back with Ssigh, but Ssigh saw through her desperate need for a boyfriend (as it seemed) and told her that she was already in love with Kira. Which she violently denied. But it made her think of Kira's goodness to her and so she started to realize. And her reaction to hearing Kira's voice when they found out that they were both alive (or something) made Ssigh emotional. It was very evident in his facial expression and his voice that he was right about what those two felt about each other all along, and yes, of course, it hurt like shit.

Fllay went through a roller coaster of emotions, started out as someone evil in the beginning, thrust into situations that forced her to try to change and she changed, and eventually, accepting all the evil things that she did and came out of it a whole new person, a far cry from the spoiled brat she was in the first part of the series. It was great because she actually developed as a character. It was great because it was shown rather quite well how she reacted to the war normally and was made to suffer through all of those things and she tried to become a better person after all of it.

What was there? Denial?

Love? Maybe. But, as I've tried to explain, while she no doubt came to care for Kira in the end, just calling it "love" and accepting it without reserve as a great, pure, selfless thing is... unwise.

REALLY? Ever tried being so in love with one person so much you want to change everything that you were before? And admitting someone's mistakes and tried making himself or herself change so that the one person who had been in love with them all along would finally be happy? And since it wouldn't be possible that they would be together after everything else has happened, that they would promise to always look after them in thought or whatever celestial dimension they are now in in order to protect them with their truest feelings?

Yes, calling it love would be so unwise.

Not really. Whatever made you think that?

Seriously, what's with you guys and Lacus? Why does she appear in that discussion at all?

Yeah, well, Kira Lacus is teh heaven and teh perfection personified more so than Kira Fllay. I admit that Kira Fllay relationship is not teh heaven or teh perfection, but at LEAST it was very believable. And at least it was shown that they actually cared for each other, and because it was developed.

And since thread is about Fllay, there are people whou would always try to insert snippets of Lacus holiness and how she is the perfect match for Kira some of the time. Yes, Lacus would pop in time and again...

Normal teenager relationships are short lived. They end, and the kids get over it. They're not the unending love stories you're trying to ascribe to Kira and Flay.

What unending love story?

Not all teenager romances are short lived. Maybe a very tiny percentage actually survive all throughout highschool, college, and eventually, they end up getting married.

And of course, it doesn't help that Fllay was his first love...

They didn't get a chance for that. They started out using each other, and Flay didn't even care for Kira. And Kira never saw it. If she'd come clean, as she'd intended to, and Kira forgave her, then maybe you could really say they loved each other and shit. (Which is more than she deserves, but whatever.) But Rau saw to it it didn't happen.

Yes, they didn't. Kira never saw it. But he was more than willing to try it with Fllay again (as if his weird Freedom-get-an-almost-Heero-Yuy-treatment when he heard Fllay's voice isn't enough evidence), and his dispassionate treatment of Fllay's disappearance suddenly dissapears like magic... And Fllay was more than willing to try and start a new relationship with Kira, this time based on what she now truly felt for him. It's easy to see where this thing is headed if given the chance.

Want more evidence? It usually happens with RPG couples...

Because it seems to me that they hardly knew each other at all. Hardly looked at each other for what they were. To her, Kira was first her weapon, then her protector, then her... I'm not sure I can express it correctly. Her cross? Her penance?

So? Our parents started out like that (meaning that they barely knew each other and only noticed each other when they fell in love)...

She didn't think of Kira as her penance. Where the heck did you get that idea?

I don't think her hate for coordinators eer ran bone deep. The initial yuck probably came from her aping her dad and her peers, as kids will do. It was worsened when Zaft killed her father, of course, but she never was that heroic about her death.

Come to think of it, it was rather sketchy the way she hated Coordinators. Remember the ep when she helped the children make origami flowers for the dead Coordinators of Junius Seven? Knowing children are very honest about things, Fllay would rather have herself killed than do something good for the Coordinators if she actually hated them so much. But from the point that she didn't shake Lacus' hand to the time she was captured in the Vesalius, she was very pissed off about Coordinators... She only expressed mild amazement when Ssigh revealed to her that Kira was a Coordinator (before Lacus and her dad's death). See the loophole? If ever, Kuzzey was the one who hated Coordinators...

If you will, she's like a KKK member who's all contempt and murderous intent when she's holding the shotgun and the Black man is alone, but wouldn't say a word when alone, unarmed in a roomful of Black men.

I hardly think that would be the case. I mean, she hated these people so much because they killed her father, and she got crazy with trying to prod Kira into killing them, and even tried killing Dearka...yes, I think she'd really do something stupid...

But, the loophole is THERE.

I don't see what you're getting at. Yes, Flay saw some of the war. Yes, she finally came to see it was a Bad, Horrible Thing. Maybe she even saw that the Bastard Them are actually the same as the Righteous Us. But from there to claim "she understands all about war"? Especially since she never struck me as a great thinker of her times...

She does, she did. In her own little way, she understood it.

What? I'll have to relook at my post.

You were saying that it was never shown that Lacus was the leader of the Three Ship Alliance and Clyne Faction...

Did I? I didn't mean it like that, then. Not the psychotic part, anyway.

In the abscence of more data, I'm working by stereotypes (doesn't work so well IRL, but since it's a story...) Flay's seem to be "rich, spoiled girl. Pretty and popular, knows it, likes it, uses it."

Yeah, and add naive, selfish, narrow minded, small minded...

It wasn't really shown that she used her feminine charms to lure all the men in her college to become her love slaves for the rest of the school year.

As I told Otacu: it's nice she grew up some, but when all's said and done, I'm not that impressed with the end result.

Yes, it's you opinion. But then we also have ours...it's not just Fllay who is a bitch, it was Fllay who was a bitch.

Same, I'll have to reread.

It's your post as Kira Lacus love VS Kira Fllay "love".

Yeah, I'm sure seeing her shot like that was pretty traumatic and deprived Kira of closure. But heh, two years. Maybe medication. (That'd explain his expressionlessness throughout GSD. He was half-sedated all that time. )
Must reread!

No, he became a mindless, emotionless robot.

No, why?

Well, you said Patrick Zala wasn't secretive of his genocidal end to all of humanity's troubles in private conversations with Siegel Clyne...and somehow Lacus figured it out...

I find that implausible. The whole thing seemed to have been set up well in advance of Sygel's death. Contacts were made with his close associates. And it's called the "Clyne" faction, not the "Lacus" faction, while most everyone call her "Lacus-sama", not "Clyne-sama".

If it were named the Lacus Faction I swear I'm going to cry...

But take note that she is also surnamed Clyne, and since she is so "adorable" and "popular" with the masses she is called as Lacus-sama...

It's absurd. Siegel Clyne is very much against revolt, and would not have something like that in order to regain control over the situation. He still tried to resolve the crisis with Patrick Zala as diplomatically as possible until he was killed for it. So it's no go that he created that faction to go against Zala.

Also, he was a powerful politician. She was just an idol and a powerful politician's daughter.

CONVENIENTLY, I might add...

All that to say, I think she inherited the faction, she didn't create it.

Again, just an idea. Not necessarily what happened...

(Also, I read somewhere that in the manga, the one who gave Kira Freedom was Sygel, not Lacus. Which makes slightly more sense.)

No, it doesn't make even more SENSE. Why the heck would Siegel Clyne hand to Kira Yamato the Freedom which he knew was something going against his peaceful ways of dealing with crises and whatnot? And how the heck did he know Kira? And besides, isn't it risking too much?

Hm, no. He was already talking about it far before that, though not in as obviously crazy a way. And, quite simply, her father could have told her afterwards.

Why would he tell his daughter? Seriously, if your dad's targeted by mafiosi, for example, would he have told you? Of COURSE he wouldn't! You'll only get worried. Worse, if you knew, you could also get killed, instead of him. Some great parent he is, then.

What?

Going by her perfection, she wouldn't let something like this mar her perfect image of the cool, calm collected leader she is. And somebody with sense.

EDIT: after rereading my post, those parts I didn't understand at first still don't make sense.

Then read if you must.