Log Horizon - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by orion

He puts on a very good first impression of "Mess with me and you could get reincarnated at the Cathedral."which is prob what he wanted to do in the first place since he was already at the castle.

It came off more as I've got enough mojo that I'm worth meeting with then an actual threat Shiroe has probably gotten a lot of request for private meetings from mages and this entrance make's it clear it will be worth his time.

Well Log Horizon B team there struggling but hey there still at it at least considering that there both newbies and this as went from being a video game to a full world where they can feel pain it's expected that it will take some time to get the hang of things.

As for Krusty and Raynes I see it as mutually beneficial relationship for both of them even though Krusty is having drag Raynes into it. She's a princess that really doesn't like the royal lifestyle and he's the head of a guild that has more military might then the entire League of Freedom Cities Eastal so that I could see working out well for both of them.

[watisit]

It'll end up well for Crusty, for Raynessia however... She'll be bullied for the rest of her life

[Byakou]

Krusty is a prodigy at the art of social bullshit. His username though, lol. Is he a pie? /RHETORICAL

Now that he talked about his sister, I guess a romance would make him look pretty perverted. LOL. Oh and also the fact she's like a little kid, and an AI not an actual person...

I thought it was funny how all the lowbies were little kids. As if all adults would automatically be high lvls.

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by Byakou

I thought it was funny how all the lowbies were little kids. As if all adults would automatically be high lvls.

Well, apparently most of the little ones modeled their avatars after their real-life forms (at least, they did for sake of animation). But also, most adults playing the game probably started earlier and would be a) high-leveled and/or b) not playing anymore.

Also, Hamelin probably didn't seek out adult low-level players (if they could find any) because those guys would probably join a large guild like D.D.D rather than a small guild like Hamelin (which, as far as I'm concerned, only formed after the Catastrophe), or form a small guild with their friends (and if episode 6 is any indication, would probably have been absorbed by DDD anyways).

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by watisit

It'll end up well for Crusty, for Raynessia however... She'll be bullied for the rest of her life

Yeah but from looks of it being bullied by Krusty is going to be a lot more fun for her then a typical noble life of paraded around like inbreed show dog first by father then by her husband which would be decided by arranged marriage.

Originally Posted by Byakou

Now that he talked about his sister, I guess a romance would make him look pretty perverted. LOL. Oh and also the fact she's like a little kid, and an AI not an actual person...

Well to be fair her personality reminds him a bit of his sister as far as we know she not mirror image, her age however does make him rather pervy though.

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

Also, Hamelin probably didn't seek out adult low-level players (if they could find any) because those guys would probably join a large guild like D.D.D rather than a small guild like Hamelin (which, as far as I'm concerned, only formed after the Catastrophe), or form a small guild with their friends (and if episode 6 is any indication, would probably have been absorbed by DDD anyways).

Adult low level players probably would have been a lot hard to control more prone to rebel and might be a lot more sure of themselves since they would be more likely to be use MMO in general.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Byakou

Now that he talked about his sister, I guess a romance would make him look pretty perverted. LOL. Oh and also the fact she's like a little kid, and an AI not an actual person...

Landers aren't AI though, but real people.

[tsunade666]

isn't it already established that its an alternate world? even Roderick from Roderick firm said it. Its like people watching log hora aren't even watching and they aren't like Isaac which is just being tsundere on stuff.

THIS IS NOT SAO They aren't inside a game or playing a virtual game. Its getting irritating with its being mentioned again and again but people still keep on saying it.

[teja208]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

isn't it already established that its an alternate world? even Roderick from Roderick firm said it. Its like people watching log hora aren't even watching and they aren't like Isaac which is just being tsundere on stuff.

THIS IS NOT SAO They aren't inside a game or playing a virtual game. Its getting irritating with its being mentioned again and again but people still keep on saying it.

If some people still want to believe Landers are AI I don't think it has anything to do with how this world being more than just a game. I think it can be argued that Shiroe only claim that this is more then just ET the game, but nothing to prove whether they are in an alternate reality or just a trap in a highly advanced virtual world. They aren't in the ET game that's given but nothing to prove that Landers aren't sentinent AI.

[WhiteJoker]

Originally Posted by teja208

If some people still want to believe Landers are AI I don't think it has anything to do with how this world being more than just a game. I think it can be argued that Shiroe only claim that this is more then just ET the game, but nothing to prove whether they are in an alternate reality or just a trap in a highly advanced virtual world. They aren't in the ET game that's given but nothing to prove that Landers aren't sentinent AI.

This. What Shiroe concludes isn't that they're on another world or if they're in a game (which there are still compelling arguments for considering the overlays and what have you) but rather that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck you may as well treat it like a duck. The Landers act like people so the moral and ethical imperative is to treat them like people. Whether they actually are or aren't is, for the most part, irrelevant in the day-to-day sense.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Byakou

Now that he talked about his sister, I guess a romance would make him look pretty perverted. LOL. Oh and also the fact she's like a little kid, and an AI not an actual person...

As has been addressed in the show. The People of the Land actually have FAR more credibility than the Adventurers as far as being *real* people. They're more or less just regular people living in a fantasy world. They're not freakish inhuman immortals. The only we even entertain the possibility that they might not be real is the prejudice that comes with knowing what an NPC is in an MMORPG.

If you transported a regular person from say, the 1950's, into the world of Log Horizon, he'd find the automatic assumption by modern day Adventurers that the People of the land were not *real* to be literally incomprehensible. Without familiarity with the concept of how NPC's in RPG's function, the assumption that the People of the Land weren't real wouldn't make sense. And given how radically different this Elder Scrolls is from the actual game (especially with the People of the Land), citing familiarity with the original game isn't a very authoritative argument.

Originally Posted by teja208

If some people still want to believe Landers are AI I don't think it has anything to do with how this world being more than just a game. I think it can be argued that Shiroe only claim that this is more then just ET the game, but nothing to prove whether they are in an alternate reality or just a trap in a highly advanced virtual world. They aren't in the ET game that's given but nothing to prove that Landers aren't sentinent AI.

Here's the thing though. If we accept the idea that the people of the land are just AI simulations...why can't all the other adventurers be AI simulations to? How can any Adventurer know for certain that he isn't the only actual person in existence in this world?

Of course now we're just talking about Solipsim here. And the basic tenants of the philosophy apply just as much in our world as they do in the world of Elder Scrolls. And navel gazing philosophies about how everything and everyone might actually be fake aren't necessarily the best basis to determine practical laws/codes of conduct for running an orderly society should work.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Here's the thing though. If we accept the idea that the people of the land are just AI simulations...why can't all the other adventurers be AI simulations to? How can any Adventurer know for certain that he isn't the only actual person in existence in this world?

Of course now we're just talking about Solipsim here. And the basic tenants of the philosophy apply just as much in our world as they do in the world of Elder Scrolls. And navel gazing philosophies about how everything and everyone might actually be fake aren't necessarily the best basis to determine practical laws/codes of conduct for running an orderly society should work.

A better question is how do any of them know they're really real think about it if the People of the Land are AI and extraordinarily advanced ones it's possible they're all part of some AI experiment and not real flesh and blood people that would actually make more sense then either them being transported some alternate universe or being mysteriously sucked into VR version of an MMO they were playing.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by GundamFan

A better question is how do any of them know they're really real think about it if the People of the Land are AI and extraordinarily advanced ones it's possible they're all part of some AI experiment and not real flesh and blood people that would actually make more sense then either them being transported some alternate universe or being mysteriously sucked into VR version of an MMO they were playing.

Well that goes back to the thing I mentioned earlier. If you belive in the idea of just being a computer simulation, isn't that a theory you'd always have to worry about? Like, in your day to day existance? And not just when you end up tossed into some kinda super natural setting?

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Well that goes back to the thing I mentioned earlier. If you belive in the idea of just being a computer simulation, isn't that a theory you'd always have to worry about? Like, in your day to day existance? And not just when you end up tossed into some kinda super natural setting?

I suppose so but being an ultra advance AI in a computer simulation seems very improbable normally however in the situation of the people stuck in the Elder Tale game it actually would be the most well thought out possibility.

[hamazura]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

THIS IS NOT SAO They aren't inside a game or playing a virtual game. Its getting irritating with its being mentioned again and again but people still keep on saying it.

how you say this all mighty is irritating me lol
if u read SAO light novel until the last arc, this elder tale still being a virtual game IS possible

[monir]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

isn't it already established that its an alternate world? even Roderick from Roderick firm said it. Its like people watching log hora aren't even watching and they aren't like Isaac which is just being tsundere on stuff.

When was that established? Refresh my memory, please.

[DQueenie13]

I think it's the whole Noosphere stuff, which Mamare said was a heavy influence on the series. Pretty much, it's an essay about how everyone's collective consciousness/will, intentionally or unintentionally, causes an event to unfold; or at least, that's what I got from other people talking about it.

((I don't know if that counts as a spoiler or not, since nothing's been particularly confirmed yet.))

[WhiteJoker]

Originally Posted by monir

When was that established? Refresh my memory, please.

It never has been since they have no way to prove any of their theories regarding the nature of the reality they're in. What is established is that the Round Table and Akiba are treating it like an alternate reality and going forward on the assumption that their theory is correct because to do otherwise will likely lead to crap like Susekino. Their working relationship with reality and the actual nature of reality are not the same thing; frankly it's the most sensible answer because there is no downside to believing so even if they are wrong and plenty of issues if they do otherwise and are wrong.

Within the context of the world, the characters don't question whether the world is real or not at this point because there's really no point for them to do so. Let's assume they believe it all to be a game, then what? Well the answer is what we saw; the start of the series and the decline of Akiba and Susekino with a few guilds finding purpose in playing the game but the majority falling into apathy due to lack of purpose. What if they assume it's all real and the Landers are people? Well you have what they're doing now; trying to find their way because this is reality and they have no choice but to deal with it. Taking what the Adventurers are doing in order to stay sane as canonical fact on a mystery which they don't understand or know anything about is folly; they don't know and in most instances they aren't thinking about it because it's secondary to restoring some sense of normalcy and purpose to their existence. This is what the Round Table Conference was about.

Imagine you questioned your own existence. Imagine you can't tell if you're real or fake. Imagine that you can't tell if what you see is real or isn't. What do you do? It seems to me there's really only three choices: you become paralyzed with indecision, you assume it's all a lie and do whatever you want, or you assume it's all real and act accordingly. Which do you pick? In the end it doesn't matter what the "truth" is, what matters is what you do about it.

Shiroe's points about treating the People of the Land as fellow sentients are dressed up in tangible cost-benefit issues (war, hardship, and so forth), however the scene with the random farmers they stayed with on the trip back from Susekino is designed to highlight the fact that to Shiroe the Landers are indistinguishable from "normal" humans. Insisting Akiba treat them like people has little to do with potential harm the Landers can inflict to the Adventurers and everything to do with what is ethically/morally right. Furthermore I suspect that Shiroe saw the link between abusing the Landers and the situation in Susekino, namely that if you convince yourself that something that is, in nearly every single way, indistinguishable from a person is an object which you can do whatever you want with, how long before you start doing the same to people you know are "real?" If Demikas and Brigandia are any indication the answer is "not very long."

TL;DR: The nature of the Log Horizon universe has not been established but the Adventurers gain nothing from believing it is anything except real.

[monir]

Thank you for this articulated and well thought out response. And I agree with you completely. At least you didn't right out dismiss the in-your-face correlation about how the setting of this world is a virtual-copy of the online MMORPG. Based on what we've learned up to episode 13, it is still not clear whether these guys are stuck in virtual world or in an alternate universe. So outright dismissing (or showing irritation p) the notion that they still might be stuck in a virtual program would be a bit of a premature assertion.

[aohige]

You could walk around believing black people are goblins, indians are orcs, and east asians are alien invaders because your mama told you so, despite the behaviors suggesting otherwise.
But I would think that's gonna do more harm than good while living in the real world.

Originally Posted by monir

Thank you for this articulated and well thought out response. And I agree with you completely. At least you didn't right out dismiss the in-your-face correlation about how the setting of this world is a virtual-copy of the online MMORPG. Based on what we've learned up to episode 13, it is still not clear whether these guys are stuck in virtual world or in an alternate universe. So outright dismissing (or showing irritation p) the notion that they still might be stuck in a virtual program would be a bit of a premature assertion.

You see, here's the thing though monir. Unlike SAO where the environments of virtual reality was presupposed, the likelihood of hundreds of thousands of people, maybe even close to a million, from all corners of the Earth, getting trapped in a virtual world resembling a regular MMORPG is about as "fantasy" as you can get.
Keep in mind they were NOT playing a VRMMO like SAO. This was a regular game, just like we play in the real world.

Imagine some massive world-wide entity deciding to suddenly kidnap everyone logged on to World of Warcraft on the exact same time around the globe, strapping them to a virtual machine somehow created to simulate the world of Azeroth perfectly. This ridiculous notion was actually dismissed by Shiroe in the very first volume, but his monologues have been all but cut in the anime since that would be a boring first episode.

For this to be even conceived as an man-made virtual world, it would have to involve aliens or supernatural deities. Or time travelers and/or Matrix backdrop.
And at that point, it's kinda moot to even consider this not being an actual magical world, no?
It's Haruhi level of madness.

[WhiteJoker]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

I think it's the whole Noosphere stuff, which Mamare said was a heavy influence on the series. Pretty much, it's an essay about how everyone's collective consciousness/will, intentionally or unintentionally, causes an event to unfold; or at least, that's what I got from other people talking about it.

((I don't know if that counts as a spoiler or not, since nothing's been particularly confirmed yet.))

Unconsciousness and unintentional; Homesteading the Noosphere is definitely about how unconscious customs unintentionally change and influence goals even if the customs and the goal are completely contradictory. Namely it focuses on the open source movement and how human nature and human characteristics have made it less open then it should be given it's mission statement because human history has ingrained characteristics into us that make such a thing... really hard to do.

I'd really recommend reading it since it isn't written in high academia and his sentence structure tends to be less convoluted and meandering than mine! I don't know if you'll be able to draw direct parallels to Log Horizon from it though I can definitely see how it influenced Mamare's work. It also isn't terribly long since each section probably isn't more than a novel page or two in length; most of that length is taken up explaining things.