2020 US Presidential Election Discussion (primary & general)

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

The only real question now is whether he and his supporters once more pout and throw the election to Trump, like they did in 2016.

He never once pouted about it. A good percentage of his supporters, yes, but he himself did not.

Also, maybe if the DNC could run a campaign they'd have done better. Hilary had one of the worst campaigns ever, so it's not really surprising she lost. I expect similar from Biden with how out of touch he is and how... disturbingly close some of his gaffes are starting to seem like onset dementia.

Originally Posted by coded321

Hopefully trump burns America to the ground so we can finally reset the slate and truly make progress.

Yeah... if Trump and the GOP burn the country to the ground, there will be no "resetting the slate". Progress will not happen, as the coup will be complete.

Originally Posted by coded321

biden, who is basically trump lite

You really need to get some sleep. You're delirious. In no way is being an out of touch Reagan Republican the equivalent of being "Trump Lite".

[Guardian Enzo]

It's also ludicrous to call him a Reagan Republican, as anyone who knows anything about Reagan's impact on the country would attest to. One impact of Trump raising the bar for presidential atrocity is the whitewashing of Regan and GWB. They were awful.

Biden is basically an establishment, center-left, old-school "capital D" Democrat. Broadly pro-choice, interventionist, a believer in good government. And - unlike Sanders - actually a Democrat, which should matter. Hardly my first choice, but if he weren't 78 years old I would have a much easier time resigning himself to him being the standard-bearer. But he is and he is, so I hope for the best and a good pick (Abrams, maybe) as the VP.

[coded321]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

And now the racist crap kicks in.

The idea that Sanders - who can't even muster enough support in a Democratic primary campaign to be nominated - could possibly win a general election is laughable. His coalition has shrunk since '16, and it was too small then.

What's really striking is how Trump-like much of what comes out of the Sanders camp is, from the candidate on down. How much anger, how much hate, the racism and misogyny. The fact is that Trump can be nominated because that kind of reactionary populism has a much larger footprint in the Republican party than the Democratic. Sanders has pretty much maxed it out and it's not big enough (thank goodness) to carry the day.

Oh yeah, i'm racist for pointing out that black voters voted for biden who supported segregation,voted for numerous crime bills that disproportionally hurt black people, mocked anita hill, over bernie who marched against segregation, voted against those bills biden voted for, etc. Just another example of the political, corporate establishment that has brainwashed americans into always voting against their best interests in the name of a status quo. The establishment that makes youth voters apathetic and complacent to the political process. The establishment that just threw their full might behind biden right before super tuesday, giving him a momentum that he could never have achieved on his own, all to stop bernie. All that, just to support the most vulnerable candidate of the entire democratic field. All that, in the name of corporate interests.
But don't you worry, i'll vote for biden in november. At the same time, i'll be preparing emergency plans to migrate out of the U.S once it all goes to shit.

[Grifis]

I knew this guy who was all dramatic when Trump won. He said he was so depressed and he would move out of the US. He still hasn't moved yet and is doing quite well. I'm kind of disappointed especially after witnessing the drama queen reaction.

[coded321]

Originally Posted by GDB

Yeah... if Trump and the GOP burn the country to the ground, there will be no "resetting the slate". Progress will not happen, as the coup will be complete.



You really need to get some sleep. You're delirious. In no way is being an out of touch Reagan Republican the equivalent of being "Trump Lite".

1)Good, then they'll turn this country into a s-hole, and the other countries will finally stop treating the u.s t the moral, social leader of the world

2)Policy wise, they're completely the same on everything. the only difference is that biden doesn't send mean tweets.

[coded321]

Originally Posted by Grifis

I knew this guy who was all dramatic when Trump won. He said he was so depressed and he would move out of the US. He still hasn't moved yet and is doing quite well. I'm kind of disappointed especially after witnessing the drama queen reaction.

That's because, until yesterday, I had hope, hope that we could beat trump. Now that's gone, and if you thought trump was bad now, oh he's going to become so much worse in his second term. He going to make first term trump look reasonable. And the one who's suppose to save us from this fate, according to the dnc, is biden, who's clearly going through early stage dementia and has 0 plan or policy? So, you know, never hurts to be prepared, just in case.

[Key Board]

I've begrudgingly accepted that identity politics matter.

Bernie was a socialist
Warren was a woman
Bidden had Obama afterglow

Sure, there were a lot of young progressive voters this primary, but I also noticed that the older voters also came out in droves and voted for Bidden.

Perhaps nothing can change until all the boomers die out...

but while that's happening Trump is changing the rules and flooding the lower courts with Trumpian judges.

Yes, I am not happy.

//

[Ithekro]

Before, I think, two weeks ago, I didn't even know Biden was running at all. He has Zero campaigning going on anywhere I've been. Its been Bloomburg, Warren, and Sanders everywhere.

[coded321]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Before, I think, two weeks ago, I didn't even know Biden was running at all. He has Zero campaigning going on anywhere I've been. Its been Bloomburg, Warren, and Sanders everywhere.

Basically, everything the republicans failed to do to stop trump in 2016, the democrats have just done to bernie.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by coded321

2)Policy wise, they're completely the same on everything. the only difference is that biden doesn't send mean tweets.

Does Biden want to put kids in cages? Does Biden want to build a wall that is not only useless, but actively damaging to the environment? Does Biden want to alienate the US from its allies? Does Biden want to cozy up to dictators and tyrants?

You really need to get a grip on reality.

[Toukairin]

Without using the same fatalistic language that coded321 has posted to express his reaction, I also admit that the socio-political situation in the US is genuine stuff to be concerned about for the future. If it touches the US, there is a good chance it will touch anywhere else in the world as well.

Yesterday, I was having a small discussion on Reddit with someone from Europe as we watched the primary results live on TV from our respective parts of the world. We were both puzzled that so many Democratic-leaning Americans chose to revert to some form of statu quo in a context where social policies have not been ambitious enough for over 50 years, which coincided with the election of Richard Nixon. For most Americans who either saw or read about what kind of social safety nets exist in other top-tier countries, they are aware that the statu quo has deteriorated the social landscape while other countries did what they had to do to build upon social safety nets to protect the dignity of every citizen throughout new challenges.

I recently went back to read about Roosevelt's acomplishments, namely how he pulled America through from the Great Depression. By signing the Social Security Act and other initiatives during his first term, the misery brought on by the Great Depression was curbed. By taxing income on the wealthy up to 75%, FDR directly funded millions of government jobs at a time when people needed jobs. In many ways, it's safe to say that the kind of modern vision of the American Dream may not have been as widespread if it wasn't for FDR.

Of course, just like Bernie Sanders, FDR was strongly accused of being a socialist or even a communist. However, what history doesn't tell us is the motivation behind his decisions. FDR knew that the ideological threats of communism and of fascism were real, overtaking democracy in European countries. A commitment to the statu quo would be an invitation to extremists everywhere. By fulfilling the government’s obligation to assist its people, he was instilling confidence in the American system. Seriously, how many people here can genuinely say that they fully trust the American system as it is now in 2020?

The biggest regret in American history has to be the decision of not implementing Roosevelt's Second Bill of Rights after his death. The concluding remark from his 1944 State of the Union speech was meant to secure a postwar period without wars.

Originally Posted by Franklin D. Roosevelt

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being. For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.

When one looks at the bill, the main lines are the foundations for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948. People from the late FDR's administration exported those concepts to all countries in need of a rebuild. While Europe, Japan, Canada and many more countries went on to implement those concepts, the US never followed through as they should have. Even if Biden is considered to be center-left, neither he nor any presidential candidate who is not a firm believer of FDR's principles will ever finish what FDR started. Why is it so difficult to fulfill that dream? It's a genuine question that many people, Americans and non-Americans alike, have.

[coded321]

Originally Posted by GDB

Does Biden want to put kids in cages? Does Biden want to build a wall that is not only useless, but actively damaging to the environment? Does Biden want to alienate the US from its allies? Does Biden want to cozy up to dictators and tyrants?

You really need to get a grip on reality.

Sadly, most independents and all republicans in general will not give a damn about those issues you listed. look at the chart below, why the hell would an independent vote for biden over trump? Its going to be 2016 all over again. all they've done is push the weakest democrat candidate in hopes that, yet again, voters will vote for the lesser of two evils, instead of voting for policy. It didn't work in 2016, its not going to work now, especially not with biden. The only chance biden has at presidency is if the economy fails before election. Only hope now is that, unlike 2016, we hold the house and win back the senate. So that way, at least we can keep the 2nd trump term in check.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Toukairin

Without using the same fatalistic language that coded321 has posted to express his reaction, I also admit that the socio-political situation in the US is genuine stuff to be concerned about for the future. If it touches the US, there is a good chance it will touch anywhere else in the world as well.

Yesterday, I was having a small discussion on Reddit with someone from Europe as we watched the primary results live on TV from our respective parts of the world. We were both puzzled that so many Democratic-leaning Americans chose to revert to some form of statu quo in a context where social policies have not been ambitious enough for over 50 years, which coincided with the election of Richard Nixon. For most Americans who either saw or read about what kind of social safety nets exist in other top-tier countries, they are aware that the statu quo has deteriorated the social landscape while other countries did what they had to do to build upon social safety nets to protect the dignity of every citizen throughout new challenges.

I recently went back to read about Roosevelt's accomplishments, namely how he pulled America through from the Great Depression. By signing the Social Security Act and other initiatives during his first term, the misery brought on by the Great Depression was curbed. By taxing income on the wealthy up to 75%, FDR directly funded millions of government jobs at a time when people needed jobs. In many ways, it's safe to say that the kind of modern vision of the American Dream may not have been as widespread if it wasn't for FDR.

Of course, just like Bernie Sanders, FDR was strongly accused of being a socialist or even a communist. However, what history doesn't tell us is the motivation behind his decisions. FDR knew that the ideological threats of communism and of fascism were real, overtaking democracy in European countries. A commitment to the statu quo would be an invitation to extremists everywhere. By fulfilling the government’s obligation to assist its people, he was instilling confidence in the American system. Seriously, how many people here can genuinely say that they fully trust the American system as it is now in 2020?

The biggest regret in American history has to be the decision of not implementing Roosevelt's Second Bill of Rights after his death. The concluding remark from his 1944 State of the Union speech was meant to secure a postwar period without wars.



When one looks at the bill, the main lines are the foundations for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948. People from the late FDR's administration exported those concepts to all countries in need of a rebuild. While Europe, Japan, Canada and many more countries went on to implement those concepts, the US never followed through as they should have. Even if Biden is considered to be center-left, neither he nor any presidential candidate who is not a firm believer of FDR's principles will ever finish what FDR started. Why is it so difficult to fulfill that dream? It's a genuine question that many people, Americans and non-Americans alike, have.

What you leave out of your analysis is that Roosevelt kept the U.S. out of the war against fascism for far longer than most progressives wanted. And that he almost constantly faced opposition on his left, in his re-election campaigns, by candidates claiming he was too centrist, a closet Republican, not socialist enough. Romanticizing historical figures is not necessary to admire their more admirable accomplishments.

The idea of comparing Sanders, who - rather than try and unite the party whose nomination he covets claims its the enemy, and refuses to even join it - to FDR is laughable. Trump is a much better analog for Sanders, except he's a member of a party where his brand of populism and demagoguery has enough traction to get him nominated.

[Toukairin]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

The idea of comparing Sanders, who - rather than try and unite the party whose nomination he covets claims its the enemy, and refuses to even join it - to FDR is laughable. Trump is a much better analog for Sanders, except he's a member of a party where his brand of populism and demagoguery has enough traction to get him nominated.

Then, I hope you can tell me how different Sanders' proposals are any different from 1) what FDR proposed in 1944, 2) what has been implemented in Europe and Japan after the war by Americans, and 3) what is the backbone of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The riches and conservatives were bigger assholes to FDR than the far left was. Don't blame me for distorting or romanticizing facts when the man said himself that "they (the forces wealth behind the Liberty League and other like-minded groups) are unanimous in their hate for [him] and [he] welcome their hatred."

And just as I pointed earlier, it has been more than 50 years that America has not tasted profound changes to the fabric of their society. Don't you think it's about time they see another period of profound changes? If not, why not?

edit: I forgot to ask... Can mods change the title of this thread for "2020 US Presidential Elections thread"? I think it would be more appropriate since it's already kicked off.

[ramlaen]

Originally Posted by GDB

Does Biden want to put kids in cages?

You mean like when he was VP? I don't recall him complaining.

Originally Posted by coded321

Oh boy this one is a doozy.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Toukairin

Then, I hope you can tell me how different Sanders' proposals are any different from 1) what FDR proposed in 1944, 2) what has been implemented in Europe and Japan after the war by Americans, and 3) what is the backbone of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The riches and conservatives were bigger assholes to FDR than the far left was. Don't blame me for distorting or romanticizing facts when the man said himself that "they (the forces wealth behind the Liberty League and other like-minded groups) are unanimous in their hate for [him] and [he] welcome their hatred."

And just as I pointed earlier, it has been more than 50 years that America has not tasted profound changes to the fabric of their society. Don't you think it's about time they see another period of profound changes? If not, why not?

edit: I forgot to ask... Can mods change the title of this thread for "2020 US Presidential Elections thread"? I think it would be more appropriate since it's already kicked off.

I would love to see profound change. That's why I support a candidate (Warren) who's actually managed to execute some instead of one who's never managed to accomplish anything beyond relentless self-promotion.

[coded321]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

What you leave out of your analysis is that Roosevelt kept the U.S. out of the war against fascism for far longer than most progressives wanted. And that he almost constantly faced opposition on his left, in his re-election campaigns, by candidates claiming he was too centrist, a closet Republican, not socialist enough. Romanticizing historical figures is not necessary to admire their more admirable accomplishments.

The idea of comparing Sanders, who - rather than try and unite the party whose nomination he covets claims its the enemy, and refuses to even join it - to FDR is laughable. Trump is a much better analog for Sanders, except he's a member of a party where his brand of populism and demagoguery has enough traction to get him nominated.

What you do not note is that the Democrat party of today has gone far to the right of FDR. Despite what americans think, the democrat party of today is not a leftist party, but a conservative one. That's why Europeans find it laughable when americans call the Democrat party a leftist party. By European standards, the democrat party is a far right party. The Republicans are so far right they're not even on the spectrum anymore. It is not bernie who rejects the democrat party, it's the party who rejects bernie. Corporations aren't funneling billions of dollars into the dnc for nothing you know. If the dnc truly wanted to win this race, they would have rallied around bernie, a true populist to go against trumps fake populism. However because Bernie's policies are not agreeable to the the DNC's corporate donors, the dnc rallied behind biden to give him the momentum he could never have gained on his own. Why would pete and Amy drop right out before super Tuesday? Why would pete, a gay relative progressive candidate, endorse the extremely conservative biden who voted for doma? Why does the media refuse to address biden blatant physical and mental health issues? His bad voting record? Why does bernie recieve almost no airtime? Because the dnc would rather have trump gain a second term than bernie winning one term. If FDR was running today, the current dnc would have rallied against him just like they did bernie. 2016 has shown, a corporate elite will not beat a fake populist, so I hoped you're prepared for trump 2020. For the sake of stopping bernie, they rallied behind the worst possible candidate to beat trump.

[coded321]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I would love to see profound change. That's why I support a candidate (Warren) who's actually managed to execute some instead of one who's never managed to accomplish anything beyond relentless self-promotion.

Yes, bernie begging warren to run in 2016 because he didn't think Hillary would win, was simply self promotion. The guy who, after losing to Hillary, rallied across the country on her behalf while she sat cozily within the dnc, was surely done just to promote himself.

[Key Board]

So then, what kind of "getting things done" is Warren trying to achieve now?

her path will only open if it's a contested convention and Joe Biden literally dies during campaign. Then, they will pick her because she'll tax billionaires a few percent less than Bernie.

outside of that, she and Bernie are outsiders.

You might argue that she's staying so she can make sure her demands are inherited by the nominee, but as her supporters said themselves, her platform overlaps a lot with Bernie, but she just "has a more realistic plan"

What's the realistic plan now?

The way I see this is she's staying there because she harms Bernie more than she harms Biden and she's getting something in return for that.

Probably not a VP seat, though, since i'm almost certain Joe will pick Kamala Harris.

edit: I'm sorry, I'm just annoyed at this "only warren can get thing done", propaganda
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/de...ss-bills-rate/

//

[Guardian Enzo]

What’s truly remarkable is that Sanders supporters think that the way they can get Warren to drop out and support him is by heaping abuse on her and her supporters. She’s not going to be bullied at of the race, and if she does eventually get out a lot of her support will go to Biden. Why? For a number of reasons, but in large part because of the Trump-like behavior of Sanders and his online troll army.

Bernie stayed in the race long after he had no chance at the nomination in 2016, further dividing the party. He had his supporters chant and heckle during Clinton’s acceptance speech at the convention. They’re the last people who should be lecturing anybody on leaving the race for the good of the party (which they say is the real evil in the first place).

I’m any event, it’s over. Neither Warren or Sanders is going the nominee, Biden is, unless he drops dead before Milwaukee. And since unlike Dear Leader he’s actually released his medicals we know there’s no reason to expect that to happen. Bernie had his chance to try and unite the party after his tepid NH win, and squandered it by doubling down on the same toxic demagoguery he’s always traded on. Super Tuesday was the result, and Biden is what all of us are left with.