Schniezel's viewpoints on war and how to obtain peace

[Bonzo]

But schneizel planned his "perfect order" and the damocles construction before to speak with black knight and unmask Lelouch, then considering we wanted to fire freya against every place with a war or a rebellion...
The black knight and japan will be one of first target.
This in the case Lelouch was dead.

Instead in the story, at episode 25 schneizel changed his mind about to destroy black knights, after all, Lelouch made it for him destroying all their armory.

[Levy]

But the Damocles system was not ready to operate untill the battle of Mt. Fuji, it was completed in the one month skip.

Schneizel needed time to finish that and anyway basically wanted to present himself like a somehow just supreme ruler rather than a bloodthirsty monster - and killing right on the spot the leading group of the enemy army would have not helped at all in this.
Also, if he had give back Japan to the japanese that would have no longer been a conflict area..

One thing he could have done quite easily if needed is, otherwise, expose Zero's identity and/or the betrayal of the leading group of the BK to mine the unity of the UNF. This is something that would have fit Schneizel's approach to such matters. The massacre of the people he went to met on his own will to set a truce, it would have just thrown gasoline on the fire of hatred toward Britannia, and this is the last thing Schneizel wanted.

[Schneizel]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

Look another point of view, if black knight success to kill lelouch in episode 19 after Schneizel revelation, 30 minutes and they were all dead.

A hypothesis made considering characters lineage.

Uhm, no.

If the "making examples" explanation was too hard to understand, think of it as giving 50% effort into situations, in which case it'd be too much effort to kill the Black Knights. The only time he wanted to really kill them was when he thought he could establish world peace through Britannian alliances in the China Arc.

[demon_god04]

Sorry I know it is late but I was gone for the weekend Just wanted to add a few things in addition to what Morbo already answered.

Originally Posted by Orga777

I know. Like I said, it doesn't mean the UFN would win.



So wait, just because of Lelouch's genius he would be able to beat SUPERIOR forces, with superior mechas, with superior numbers, and superior resources? Dispite Schneizel being just as smart and as he proved in the final battle with Lelouch and even better than Lelouch in the realm of combat tactics since Lelouch went all gun-ho and got his defenses shattered by Schneizel's forces... Heh, yeah, right... You want to know why Lelouch took over the entire world? It was more than just his skills, charisma, and Geass. It was because he had control of freaking Britannia itself with its superior forces, numbers, and resources. Oh, and because he captured everyone.

Either with or without Lelouch, their chances were always slim. He just gave them more hope than normal. The smartest move Lelouch made was taking over Britannia from the inside instead of sticking with the BKs and the UFN.

Be that as it may, Lelouch was their only real chance against Britannia.

But you do not fight a war with just soldiers and weapons. Lelouch's plan involved taken Japan and inducing the other conquered areas to rise up and rebel against Britannia. Kinda like what Xingke's plan was in the Chinese Federation that Lelouch hijacked. Britannia may have more military resources then the UFN but because of Britannian policy of discrimination against the conquered numbers, those areas are not exactly loyal to Britannia so much as kept in line through military power. With the resources being poured into the invasion of the UFN territories, if the conquered areas were to revolt, Britannia would be forced to divert their military to trouble spots all over their empire. The idea is force the Britannian military to spread their military too thin.

Originally Posted by Levy

I don't think that the Mt. Fuji move was to show Lelouch was a great strategist, rather, that he was ready to do anything to accomplish his goal. Killing all your ground forces to blow up part of the enemy fleet is not something I'll put under the label 'good strategy' , and Lelouch himself during that battle aknowledged that the BK are a very though match and they forced him to use that plan in advance repect to his own prediction.

So no, I don't think that the show wants to give us the idea that Lelouch is onnipotent and everyone else sucks, and I don't think that he won because he was so much better in warfare than the UNF and Schneizel. He was both very daring and very lucky.

If it was obvious that Lelouch got such an advantage in terms of ability he could just win and win and win again, then it would have been quite a boring series to watch. The greatness of it was that Schneizel and Lelouch were almost at the same level and that Schneizel really gave him a hard time, mostly bringing Nunnaly on his side.


On a side note: I haven't understand if you think that Emperor Lelouch forces are superior or inferior to UNF forces at Mount Fuji's battle. Your answers a are a bit contraddictory on this.

Mount Fuji was a decisive move by Lelouch. It may have wiped out his ground forces but the Black Knights bore the brunt of the attack and lost a good number of the units they were holding in reserve as well as their command ship. Without the Ikaruga to provide coordination and with the senior staff of the Black Knights escaping the burning hulk of the Ikaruga, it has the benefit of instilling confusion amoungst the troops until the secondary chain of comand could be established. Not to mention the Druid system and the Hadron cannons that were on the ship. And all that at the cost of his land units that were not exactly all too well suited to contribute too much to the aerial battle being fought.

Well considering, as Morbo pointed out, how Lelouch can predict how people will respond and record a video conversation ahead of time to distract them is pretty 'omnipotent'. I mean doing that against Mao is one thing, but against someone like Schneizel? And really, the reason why Lelouch's plans fell apart is usually because of the Hax Suzaku coming in to save the day. Kind of like how the conniving villian who had their carefully laid plans disrupted by the unpredicable abilities of the hero. I mean, what does it say about Lelouch's plans if the only reason they failed is because a hax person in a hax knightmare shows up to foil him?

[azul120]

^^ Or screw things up, depending on how you looked at it.

[Bonzo]

With Schneizel's success and the beginning of his peace made with freya terror, UFN could be the first to oppose him, it was a form of dictature too, with the classic result "kaboom!".

[demon_god04]

Schneizel also insinuated that in the final battle it would be a great opportunity to get rid of the Black Knights as well as Lelouch and then chided himself for being too greedy. That at the very least hints that at some point he would have to confront them.

[bladeofdarkness]

actually is a point in his favor
the guy is presented with a golden chance to get rid of both lelouch AND the OOBK
he is already trying to kill lelouch, but at the moment the OOBK are his allies
any villain with his sult would have fired without thinking about it twice
by not doing so he shows himself as a NON-villain

[demon_god04]

I am not saying he was a villain, only that he realised that at one point or another, the Black Knights will become his enemies.

Frankly I do not really see any character in CG as a "villain" that word is altogether too constricting and many characters just do not fit that mold.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

I am not saying he was a villain, only that he realised that at one point or another, the Black Knights will become his enemies.

Frankly I do not really see any character in CG as a "villain" that word is altogether too constricting and many characters just do not fit that mold.

Charles, Marianne?

[Kid Ying]

Originally Posted by yvj

Charles, Marianne?

Well, their plans were really crazy, but you can even say they were trying to make a better world... In a horrible and selfish way, but i think they were just like Lelouch, but with a more twisted definition of what is true peace.

[FruitsPunchSamurai]

Originally Posted by yvj

Charles, Marianne?

They were merely misguided and became well insane. That's the only way I can put it since she essentially almost changed Charles plans to rid the world of lies like he originally promised, I'm not denying what they did was ultimately selfish but you can't deny that both were ultimately warped into doing so especially since Marianne was the one to change Charles so it seems kind of off that she was all for it when she's introduced. Honestly the only character with true villainous tendencies was V.V. since he was essentially the cause of everything and escalated it even further as the series went on. He was afraid that Marianne was changing Charles (for the better) so he kills her thus traumatizing Lelouch and Nunnally, then again with SAZ incident by triggering Lelouch's geass to send Euphie on a killing spree thus pitting Lelouch and Suzaku against each other, sends Orange to kill Lelouch, and let's not forget his Geass cult which consists of mostly children that he was willing to exploit, in the end V.V. was the closest to a straight villain in the series and even with all his evil tendencies his intentions was for his brother's well being.

[azul120]

Did V. V. trigger Lelouch's geass at that very moment?

[Bonzo]

Seems very strange about it, I used that motivation like lie told by C.C, but in the original anime, Lelouch's geass activated alone without external help, C.C confirmed it to lelouch later, because he used it too much times.

[Levy]

Originally Posted by azul120

Did V. V. trigger Lelouch's geass at that very moment?

mh... I've never heard of Code users being able to trigger the Geass of other people, moreover it would not make that much sense since VV was not the one to give Lelouch his Geass.

Anyway, I agree with FruitsPunchSamurai, he's the one that is presented like the most plainly evil character of the whole series.The others had at least some dubious elements if not redeeming qualities....

[Schneizel]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

actually is a point in his favor
the guy is presented with a golden chance to get rid of both lelouch AND the OOBK
he is already trying to kill lelouch, but at the moment the OOBK are his allies
any villain with his sult would have fired without thinking about it twice
by not doing so he shows himself as a NON-villain

Uhm, this is because Schneizel is only after what his immediate goal is. It's like the kid in school who goes, "Well, a 70% = C = Passing Grade. Good enough. No need for me to try harder if that's all it takes."

He had golden opportunities all throughout the series. If he had some selfishness outside of being OCD about how he wants things to be done, he would've had a tighter grip on Nina and not let her escape so easily, same goes for Sayoko. He also would've just taken the opportunity to blast the fuck out of the mountain in China w/Anya and just crushed the Black Knights there. Why not take over all of Europe? Etc.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the proper trope name for this kind of battle tactic is "we have reserves"
usually when a character does this it makes them a complete monster in the eyes of most viewers (begging for a karmic death)
in lelouch's case it simply made him look cool
so either lelouch is really THAT awesome
or the fanbase is really THAT dumb (or just blind)

That's one of the numerous problems I had with the last few episodes, where they couldn't make up their mind if Lelouch was a villain or a hero. So they have him do outrageous things like killing more people than Britannia's reign of Terror in two months, but present him as Jesus, a genocidal Jesus but Jesus none the less.

They want to show him as willing to do anything but do it in such an outrageous matter that you don't care.

[bladeofdarkness]

i agree with Charred Knight
they couldnt decide of Schneizel is a well intentioned extremeist, noble demon, or evil overlord so he kept flipping in between all three
however he also came down with a bad case of "evil is dumb" character derailment owing (IMO) to his new doom fortress
i was half expecting him to breakout into an evil laugh in some scenes

[Schneizel]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i agree with Charred Knight
they couldnt decide of Schneizel is a well intentioned extremeist, noble demon, or evil overlord so he kept flipping in between all three
however he also came down with a bad case of "evil is dumb" character derailment owing (IMO) to his new doom fortress
i was half expecting him to breakout into an evil laugh in some scenes

What are you talking about? Schneizel's characterization and actions were consistent all throughout the show.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the proper trope name for this kind of battle tactic is "we have reserves"
usually when a character does this it makes them a complete monster in the eyes of most viewers (begging for a karmic death)
in lelouch's case it simply made him look cool
so either lelouch is really THAT awesome
or the fanbase is really THAT dumb (or just blind)

Or maybe the fanbase is as amoral as a rabid Clovis fangirl.
Errr...

I go for "Lelouch is really tHAT awesome".
And I don't really like it when people go all "omg, character x is so evil, he/she must die a slow, horrible death!", so I'm quite happy with that.

Originally Posted by Schneizel

What are you talking about? Schneizel's characterization and actions were consistent all throughout the show.

Agreed.
Lelouch could have beaten him in a less "unrealistic" way, but that's really the only case where I can understand it when people say Schneizel was acting out of character and/or being fooled too easily.