Macross Delta - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[zeross87]

i liked freyja solo version of giraffe blues better

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

What happened to Windermere is pretty much Gramia's fault creating a cult of personality and cult ideology.

Common, you know it's going to turn out that Gramia was in love with an human woman and she rejected him.

and this isn't a joke, I'm totally expecting that is what happened at this point...

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Thess

I find Tomino's shows and most Gundams to be heavily on those moral fundamentalism even with peace-theme, they are explored in a complete different manner, because they have opposite philosophical views of things.

Gundam shows feel heavier coz the conflicts are between humans with an already-accepted values (at least most of them). By the time the people in Gundam series encounter aliens that don't understand the concept of humanity and want nothing but to destroy/assimilate them Borg-style (like in the Gundam 00: Trailblazer movie) the theme also became "understanding and mutual feelings", much like Macross .

[Tak]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Significant today as nationalists are portraying as if Japan did not do anything wrong at all in WWII and is pushing the limits of its constitution with JSDF.

This may be just a side note:

Ultra-nationalists are portraying Japan as a victim who did nothing wrong in WWII, but nationalists are hoping Japan's status as a nation would be normalized and become more independent in its capacity to exercise foreign policy. Instead of always asking the United States for opinions. That and for crying out loud, stop sending every new prime minister to the US after each election, its Fing shameful.

In the 2014 - 2015 revision of article 9, the Japanese military is simply moving towards a direction of practicality, a practicality that normal countries, including Germany, enjoy.

Besides, its not as if this came out of nowhere. Certainly Japan has to contend with a modernized China and subsequent second best funded military in the world, as well as a fickle & unpredictable North Korea. I can care less about Chinese opinions, and if the South Korean want to BMW (bitch, moan & whine) about these changes, then maybe they should keep the North in check, a role the South had failed spectacularly (the Sunshine initiative basically amounts to horse $h!t).

So there, my two cents. The esteemed Kawamori-san might not agree, but imo, after exercising 'restraint' for the past 70+ years, enough is enough.

- Tak

[ryllharu]

Hasn't the entire franchise always been about trying to communicate and understand your enemy through culture, and then brutally destroying them if you can't reach that or they actively oppose that?

This isn't Gundam where they spout about pacifism while doing the opposite.

Macross is about meeting your enemy on the battlefield and attempting to understand one another, actually talk to each other, and end it when you can't. In certain cases, it is about using culture as a weapon. Your enemy won't want to fight you if they want to be a part of what you create.

The Windermereans are attempting to dominate and control the mutually peaceful culture of the cluster and the human/zentradi alliance. Our songstresses (including an emissary from their culture) will now be trying to reach Heinz through music. Frejya was converted to pop music by finding what appears to be a NUNS soldier's forgotten portable music player. The wind song by comparison is very sterile and emotionless.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

This isn't Gundam where they spout about pacifism while doing the opposite.

That is a false concept. Gundam's message is "War is Hell", and the shows portrayed it just like that with many characters suffering from the war. In most Gundam shows, those who beg for peace are not the ones who is doing the war. Those who beg for peace are actually the helpless, the victims of war, the neutral countries/factions and the MCs (because most of them are kids who got forced into doing battles and killing people) who are fed up with war, much like what happened (and still happening) in our real world.

[Annorax]

Well Tomino was clear what the zeon was representing and being anti war... but then the whitewashing from fans and other creator came.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Annorax

Well Tomino was clear what the zeon was representing and being anti war... but then the whitewashing came.

That was started by the fans, then Tomino hopped on the bandwagon. Thus Earth came with a worse alternative in the Titans, where I was cheering for Haman Karn (best Gundam female char, evar!) for pissing everyone off in Z.

Still, I feel much more sympathetic towards Zeon than I prpbably ever will for the Wind, assuming things are progressing as is atm.

- Tak

[Annorax]

Never really felt tomino was on the whitewashing badnwagon started by others, but then I dont understand half of what Tomino is doing anyway....

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Was there really a need for this tone?

Originally Posted by Thess

I'm ready for the whining to begin like happened with the Vajra.

Yes, yes there was and is a need for this tone.

Originally Posted by Thess

Windermerians do not think Earthlings as people, period. So slaughtering them isn't morally wrong to them.

Still wrong. Freyja certainly does think of them as people. Hence, your entire argument is based on a wrong assumption.

Originally Posted by Thess

What point exactly she disapproves? Her personal ethics were appealed based on her feelings. She's not helping people "because it's right", but because of her personal desire to help them. It's all about her sensibilization and because she never felt personally pressured as she doesn't think about the future (but Keith does, for example). It's all subjective. Not something you can put as a blanket statement and try to use Kant when Freyja is extremely emotional in a good way. I certainly see her as an example of how a more kinder, open Windermerian person can be, but the way Aerial Knights act remind me to Rorty's speech about those destitute of safety and sympathy which aren't lacking in anything rational necessary, except they aren't the right circumstances that would make they sympathize with others more. Freyja's experiences are Freyja's experiences. One in a million because she had contact with external world. But how many of them do you see with mp3 given by someone else?

Your entire argument is bad. You are basing it entirely on "I think I know how Kawamori is viewing those things", which is a giant assumption on your part. You think that the Knights, which are also only six people, plus their two bosses, represent the entire morality of the Windermeran race and Freyja is the one outlier in millions of people? Based on WHAT?

It is entirely more plausible that Freyja presents the baseline of the civilian population of Windermere and the Knights represent the nobility, which have other priorities than the normal civilians (but still should interact enough with them to know better).

The whole philosophy undergraduate debate you are trying to make here is not interesting to me at all. I've seen that kind of talk so often before and find it as repulsive as ever.

[Annorax]

At the risk of restarting some old war I must nevertheless satisfy my curiosity, what whining started with Vajra?

[magnuskn]

I have no idea what Thess is going on about there, to be honest. People did complain about the Vaijra being personality free for the entirety of the series. I honestly don't remember people being pissy that they were not wiped out. Some people (including me) were a bit pissed, however, that they got off scot free for all the atrocities they committed because they "just did not understood that humans were people" and saw killing them as stepping on ants. Although apparently giving their home planet to the people of Frontier was a sort of apology, which could have been made a bit clearer by both the series and the movies.

Which has no relation to the Windbags, who certainly do recognize that humans (and catpeople and fishpeople) are persons.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Annorax

Well Tomino was clear what the zeon was representing and being anti war... but then the whitewashing from fans and other creator came.

Originally Posted by Tak

That was started by the fans, then Tomino hopped on the bandwagon.

- Tak

Both of you should probably watch (or rewatch) Mobile Suit Gundam TV series again. From the get go, Tomino already ventured into the gray area where he portrayed some Zeon soldiers being sympathetic and some Fed soldiers being douchebags:

TL;DR…

 

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I have no idea what Thess is going on about there, to be honest. People did complain about the Vaijra being personality free for the entirety of the series. I honestly don't remember people being pissy that they were not wiped out. Some people (including me) were a bit pissed, however, that they got off scot free for all the atrocities they committed because they "just did not understood that humans were people" and saw killing them as stepping on ants.

I look at it this way. Macross often has moments where reality ensues when its most inconvenient. As with Protodevlins, there is absolutely NOT A DAMN thing humanity can expect from the Vajara other than having the latter leave them alone, which again, is the most generous outcome. We see this all the time IRL. At the same time, the Vajra also ushered a period of huamn technological advancement.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Which has no relation to the Windbags, who certainly do recognize that humans (and catpeople and fishpeople) are persons.

The Wind OTOH, are given a human face, and have thus far exercised unrestrained douchebaggary.

Moreover, it is also a faction where finally, rules and regulations in terms of warfare may apply, and wnforced upon!

- Tak

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Both of you should probably watch (or rewatch) Mobile Suit Gundam TV series again. From the get go, Tomino already ventured into the gray area where he portrayed some Zeon soldiers being sympathetic and some Fed soldiers being douchebags:

TL;DR…

 

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I recall that very well, By whitewashing I was thinking of portraying Zeon in subsequent series in a more glory-seeking light. Being simply sympathetic or venturing into grey area is not enough to be whitewashing, imo.

Oh yes, I cheered for Haman, almost forgetting she was the antagonist at one point. By cheering, I am not being just sympathetic, I was actively rooting for the empire.

- Tak

[FlareKnight]

Credit to the show. Really did a nice job with the passing of Messer and basically the real funeral. Certainly it works like you'd expect. Everyone is far more united now than ever before. And most have their own share of guilt or regret that they got to put out there. From Hayate, to Mirage, to Freyja or Arad. They all had regrets about what happened and what could have been done differently to save Messer's life.

Frankly I think the captain underrates the loss of Messer. I'd put that as losing like 50% of their combat ability if not more. With no one to pin down Keith, he's going to massacre the rest of them on his own.

About the only time I could really respect the Windemere people was with Keith being angry at the putting down of Messer. At the very least he respected him as an opponent and didn't underrate how strong Messer was.

Of course if their planet actually was wiped off the map I still think the universe would be better off. The leadership has the mindset of both terrorists and dictators. These guys need to be put down hard, but I'm not sure how that's going to be possible with the gap of strength that currently exists.

[Annorax]

8Nice guy and rotten apple on both side sure,its not that I am talking about, but some latter things like 0083 and the "zeon ideal" going on and going. Zeon was definitly in a more positive light too. Or igloo protraitng desperate zeon fleet using zeon ball pilot(that weird orange thing) with kid soldier as disposable troops on the battlefield as heros and brave men dying for their country,

Speaking of Gundam and Macross D, now it might be that I am wrong but wasnt there a scene involving desert zaku(or some zeon mech) and some btown skinned guy(i think) and the dialouge touches on civilian casuality and attack on innocent inZZ.

[Annorax]

Maybe I am mistaken but didnt arad did pretty well kn ep6, the latest episodes are focused on messer and kaname so of course messer are hoging the spolight on the fight, not to mention the rivalry with Keith

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Frankly I think the captain underrates the loss of Messer. I'd put that as losing like 50% of their combat ability if not more. With no one to pin down Keith, he's going to massacre the rest of them on his own.

37% is a loss of 1,85 headcount of Delta Squad. That is already much for a small unit.
Beside. Messers fighting skill was boosted by Var disease in the last fights. My guesses here is that in the percentage not included is Messers berserk mode since it is not his normal status.

[CrowKenobi]

We're starting to stray from episode 11 discussion, so please wrap it up or move it to a more appropriate thread.

Thank you.