Re:Zero - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by amaterasu4

Yeah, but one of the last times he was so desperated to kill himself he threw him from a cliff. Of course everybody is afraid of dying, but Subaru had a lot of determination to hit reset.

Originally Posted by Jaden

We get it, dying is scary, at least for the first 10 times or so. He's gonna get over it eventually. This would be a good time.

Guys, he did ask. Remember? Then, when Betelgeuse tried, he remembered something (I guess? Maybe what he was fighting for? I dunno) and dodged. The will to live isn't something to be triffled with.

And, like someone said in another thread before, this isn't All You Need is Kill. This is another kind of story.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by amaterasu4

Yeah, but one of the last times he was so desperated to kill himself he threw him from a cliff. Of course everybody is afraid of dying, but Subaru had a lot of determination to hit reset.

That was when things somewhat worked out with determination. You can see how well that "determination" fares in this arc. Now Subaru lost Rem and probably permanently mentally scarred.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Just shows the difference of situation . Rationally it makes sense to hit a reset button when things go bad. But...people don't think suicide is that comfortable right? Subaru has only done that once and it required a serious effort and level of commitment to do it. The moment he starts killing himself at every inconvenience then his entire mental state might fall apart. Someone who easily discards his own life can hardly be expected to value the life of others.

He has to keep wanting to live. And it makes sense that he does. The previous arcs should make that clear. He does lose something every time he dies. The memories of those around him and his connections to them. After having to re-start his connection to Rem and Ram in the second arc....I'd expect him to value staying alive and allowing those connections to remain intact.

The second someone "gets over" dying they could easily become a monster. People are asking Subaru to become a sociopath here. Just get over the loss of bonds and relationships. Get over seeing the people you care about dead. Get over the pain of dying. Yeah, that sounds really simple.

Yeah, there are enough monsters around. Let him keep being a somewhat normal kid for as long as possible, please...

[Twi]

I wonder how long he sat there holding Emilia's corpse in the pool of blood...

[moridin84]

Some people are saying that they hope that Subaru is going to start "becoming more cold blooded". I don't want that at all. I want him to return to his original, more positive personality.


Some people are saying that he should be more willing to commit suicide but, you know, that wouldn't really help. He's gotten much, much more information by "playing until he dies". For example, he could have killed himself the moment Rem died. However, he'd ending up losing everything he learned in this episode.

[felix]

Originally Posted by SeaDoor

I think this is now drifting uncomfortable close to being torture porn.

It's been like this for a while.

Watch torture porn with sprinkle of awkwardness porn, then come to the thread and enjoy excuses porn.

I'm starting to seriously think most of the people defending Subaru to the death must have read ahead.

...or have been spoiled of future events.

Especially with everyone repeating the "this is some other kind of story" in ambiguity over and over. Okey what kind of story is it then?

While I can understand some sympathy, and Subaru isn't responsible for all the wrongs of the world, but holy shit does he make life miserable for a lot of people around him with his bad thinking—or rather, no thinking. Whatever future climax people are defending him for, at this point better be damn good, and I mean really REALLY damn GOOD, for wasting so much time on Subaru crying and being stupid for at least 5 episodes? 6 episodes? I lost count. We didn't even get much of anything for it, the negotiation tutoring is practically just as enlightening as the famous "People die when they're killed" quote, and everything else is just questions and series voodoo.

This is slowly making the series un-recommendable... "Go watch Re:Zero it's really good! Except for 2-6 episodes at a time when the character will behave like a complete moron and gracefully omit saying or seeing the obvious even when its so easy he should have said it by mistake by now... but it's good... kind of"

Also,

Both Emilia and Rem died this episode I honestly couldn't care less. Literally felt nothing.

If there's anything this Subaru madness loop has illustrated from a writing perspective, is that once you loop enough times everything starts to get devalued and devalued into nothing. You reach a point where everything in the story (except maybe the main character) has ZERO value while in the loop. Events, character actions, and so on only have value once a loop concludes or you KNOW you're in the "end loop." Which is frankly boring. Every single non-ending loop is just as important as good fanfiction, because it's essentially "it could happen" but "didn't actually happen in the canon".

Originally Posted by aohige

Next episode is titled "From Zero". Get hyped.
That was the chapter that turned normal novel readers into raving fans who won't shut the hell up.

That better not be "Subaru starts from Episode 1 checkpoint"

That would be essentially the author saying "Oh sorry guys got a little Lost there and actually I have no idea how to fix the giant mess I caused, opsie. Let me start over and make Subaru perfect. Let's ignore everything that happened ever had any meaning or significance. Look Subaru doesn't have uncurable-PTSD issues and uncurable-idiocy! Awesome right!"

Please NO shitty "Lost" ending.

Please NO shitty "Lost" ending.

Please NO shitty "Lost" ending.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

The second someone "gets over" dying they could easily become a monster. People are asking Subaru to become a sociopath here. Just get over the loss of bonds and relationships. Get over seeing the people you care about dead. Get over the pain of dying. Yeah, that sounds really simple.

I have an opposing view of this, personally. Human nature is not about clinging to all those things, but about adaptation. The sooner he is able to conform to his new reality where he'll need to experience death many times to move on, the better off he'll be.

The more he denies that reality, the more he suffers. We've seen plenty of that by now. It would be a good time for him to grow past that. There hasn't been any badass moments for him lately..

[frubam]

Originally Posted by amaterasu4

Yeah, but one of the last times he was so desperate to kill himself he threw him from a cliff. Of course everybody is afraid of dying, but Subaru had a lot of determination to hit reset.

Originally Posted by moridin84

Some people are saying that he should be more willing to commit suicide but, you know, that wouldn't really help. He's gotten much, much more information by "playing until he dies". For example, he could have killed himself the moment Rem died. However, he'd ending up losing everything he learned in this episode.

Both are true. However this time, its like on another scale. He loses Rem, who he knows loves him(and its feeling like the reverse is also starting to become true) AND the one he loves. That should be enough justification to kill himself immediately, compared to only Rem(Ram? forgot which one), whom he didn't care about as much as he does now. For him to hold back "until someone kills him", which may or may not happen, is somewhat understandable, but similarly nonsensical. I'm thinking Puck will do the job(hell, he did it the 'other' time, and it wasn't even Subaru's fault).

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by Twi

I wonder how long he sat there holding Emilia's corpse in the pool of blood...

It was sunny outside when she died and it was sunset when Betty walked in so I wouldn't be surprised if he was there for an hour or two.

[felix]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

The second someone "gets over" dying they could easily become a monster. People are asking Subaru to become a sociopath here. Just get over the loss of bonds and relationships. Get over seeing the people you care about dead. Get over the pain of dying. Yeah, that sounds really simple.

So what are you saying, Subaru needs to wait for a pie to drop from the sky?

Become the damn monster if that's whats required, worry about the stupid consequences when everyone is still alive.

What's exactly wrong with this? You're telling me that if face with the choice of saving the people around you from suffering or death you'd choose not to if it's inconvenient? Even if you lived forever, do you want to live forever with regret? And if you wouldn't regret that sort of decision then I don't know what to say... you're already a bigger monster then any sort of decision would make you into: "it's alright for everyone else to die and suffer so that I may remain pure".

Not all good decisions are warm and fuzzy. When faced with guaranteed disaster, protecting something is better then losing everything.

[SeaDoor]

QFT

Originally Posted by felix

...It's been like this for a while.

Also,

Both Emilia and Rem died this episode I honestly couldn't care less. Literally felt nothing.

If there's anything this Subaru madness loop has illustrated from a writing perspective, is that once you loop enough times everything starts to get devalued and devalued into nothing. You reach a point where everything in the story (except maybe the main character) has ZERO value while in the loop. Events, character actions, and so on only have value once a loop concludes or you KNOW you're in the "end loop." Which is frankly boring. Every single non-ending loop is just as important as good fanfiction, because it's essentially "it could happen" but "didn't actually happen in the canon"...

Hmm... reminds of a time when I watched a same episode repeat for eight weeks running! no, more like

I did come out of this episode more curious about Beatrice. She actually seemed a bit sadden by what was going on and appeared to know much more than I thought.

Now risking sounding like a broken record... Puck is a wildcard in this plot, IMO.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Well, he can see the hands now. I could see him start to take a supporting role when Reinhard or whoever goes up against the cult

Rem is dead and so is Emilia, and it looks like whoever's lost ends up wiped from memory. Though I wonder how Puck still remembers the latter

He could still use Return by Death to bring them back, but the way they died feels too permanent. Like, character deaths in previous episodes didn't linger for that long. And to be honest, this is starting to get a little over the top even for me; killing either Rem or Emilia is one thing, but both at once...

[Xical]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Guys, he did ask. Remember? Then, when Betelgeuse tried, he remembered something (I guess? Maybe what he was fighting for? I dunno) and dodged. The will to live isn't something to be triffled with.

And, like someone said in another thread before, this isn't All You Need is Kill. This is another kind of story.

More like this is not Saike Mata Shitemo

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

Rem is dead and so is Emilia, and it looks like whoever's lost ends up wiped from memory. Though I wonder how Puck still remembers the latter

Because Emilia didn't die to the Whale, but rather, the "dark hands" of the curse.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by felix

So what are you saying, Subaru needs to wait for a pie to drop from the sky?

Become the damn monster if that's whats required, worry about the stupid consequences when everyone is still alive.

What's exactly wrong with this? You're telling me that if face with the choice of saving the people around you from suffering or death you'd choose not to if it's inconvenient? Even if you lived forever, do you want to live forever with regret? And if you wouldn't regret that sort of decision then I don't know what to say... you're already a bigger monster then any sort of decision would make you into: "it's alright for everyone else to die and suffer so that I may remain pure".

Not all good decisions are warm and fuzzy. When faced with guaranteed disaster, protecting something is better then losing everything.

Umm there is a lot wrong with that. I mean if you want to become a soulless sociopath that's your choice, but I'm sure as heck not going to choose that route.

Your problem is that you presume that you'd decide to save the people around you in that situation. Once you become the person that doesn't care about your own life then why would you keep caring about anyone around you? The most logical choice then is to say "screw it, I'm out" and turn your back on everything. Though it seems like you've already reached that point from your own comments. And you wonder why that's a bad thing? You have all my pity.

That's the path you are suggesting taking. And what is the "stay pure" nonsense? You aren't staying pure in that scenario, but piling on more trauma to carry. There's nothing clean, warm or fuzzy.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by felix

So what are you saying, Subaru needs to wait for a pie to drop from the sky?

Become the damn monster if that's whats required, worry about the stupid consequences when everyone is still alive.

What's exactly wrong with this? You're telling me that if face with the choice of saving the people around you from suffering or death you'd choose not to if it's inconvenient? Even if you lived forever, do you want to live forever with regret? And if you wouldn't regret that sort of decision then I don't know what to say... you're already a bigger monster then any sort of decision would make you into: "it's alright for everyone else to die and suffer so that I may remain pure".

Not all good decisions are warm and fuzzy. When faced with guaranteed disaster, protecting something is better then losing everything.

And what would be the point of becoming a monster to save the people you care about if you end up not caring about them?
Subaru was trying to die this episode. He sought out Betelgeuse hoping he'd kill him.

[Seafoam]

Technically Betelgeuse found him. He didn't get the urge to want to die until Emilia died. Although since he jumped out of the way, you can assume that he still wasn't committed to that idea. So no, he hasn't truly wanted to die yet.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Going Seafoam

Technically Betelgeuse found him. He didn't get the urge to want to die until Emilia died. Although since he jumped out of the way, you can assume that he still wasn't committed to that idea. So no, he hasn't truly wanted to die yet.

He only dodged because Betelgeuse insulted Emilia.

[Haruyasha]

Welp, lets see... if we follow the pattern, this is the last time Subaru dies.

What I never understood is that this entire time, Puck could easily tell Emilia that Subaru is telling the truth, yet he doesn't ever show up until it's too late. His mind reading power is virtually useless.

[Wandering_Youth]

Wow, the Witch is a real bitch. It looks like she's done threatening Subaru himself and is now going after others anytime he tries to let out his secret. Pure evil....

Well Puck looks pissed and I'm pretty damn sure he's going to slice Subaru in half once he finds out that he killed her. Is it possible we can finally find out what kind of contract Puck and Emilia have?

On a bright side in this very dark time for Subaru is that he can now see the archbishops abilities which may give him an advantage in the coming battle. If his mind can really hang on for that long.