Anime Saimoe Tournament 2006: October Finals! [READ THE RULES]

[Skane]

To misquote a saying.

"I know moe when I see it."
~~~~ ~~~~

For today's matches, I will be supporting Shinku and Alice. I just simply adore Alice's character in ARIA.

Cheers.

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by Sushi-Y

For the record, I agree with Akamatsu Ken's definition of moe:
http://matthew.animeblogger.net/arch..._talks_moe.php

An intersting theory. I always welcome your insights, Sushi-senpai
If 萌え represents a latent paternal instinct though, you might expect that guys would be as moe for shouta's as they are for rori's. Since that is nearly non-existant, nor is the word limited to apply to children or even people, I will remain skeptical...

[Sushi-Y]

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

If 萌え represents a latent paternal instinct though, you might expect that guys would be as moe for shouta's as they are for rori's. Since that is nearly non-existant, nor is the word limited to apply to children or even people, I will remain skeptical...

Good point, although maybe it has to do with the violation of condition 2? Since male characters in animes/mangas are generally portrayed as being strong (a leading character, for example) and non-submissive, it makes them ineligible as targets of moe? The qualities required for moe is usually "available" for girl characters only, but if a boy character appeared with these "girlish" qualities, isn't it perfectly possible for guys to feel moe towards that character, even though the character is clearly stated as being a male? ("Bridget made me gay", for example ^^; ) In other words, male-looking characters are inherently "un-moeable" because of condition 2 ("boys are supposed to look strong and be strong to protect girls"), but as long as condition 2 can be met, whether the character is a boy or a girl doesn't really matter at all.

Since you're reading Owari no Chronicle you'll be able to test this theory out yourself soon too. Wait until you get to chapter 21 of vol.1.

As for the difference between the number of male shotacons and lolicons, that probably has nothing to do with moe, but the male sexual orientation (because lolicons prefer little girls for a sexual reason, which is a violation of condition 1).

[Furudanuki]

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

An intersting theory. I always welcome your insights, Sushi-senpai
If 萌え represents a latent paternal instinct though, you might expect that guys would be as moe for shouta's as they are for rori's. Since that is nearly non-existant, nor is the word limited to apply to children or even people, I will remain skeptical...

Can't speak for any other guys, but there have been male characters that I thought were moe. Good example would be Shouta from Aishiteruze Baby (he is Yuzuyu's classmate; the one who is beaten by his mother). It would happen a lot more often except there are not many male characters - in the series that I tend to watch, anyway - who are presented in a fashion that would cause me to have that reaction. IMO, Sushi-Y probably has the right idea: "Since male characters in animes/mangas are generally portrayed as being strong (a leading character, for example) and non-submissive, it makes them ineligible as targets of moe?" Only maybe not so much ineligible as rare and/or unlikely targets?

Oh well, that's all for tonight. If I don't get to sleep soon I'm not going to be feeling very moe about anyone in the morning....

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Furudanuki

Can't speak for any other guys, but there have been male characters that I thought were moe. Good example would be Shouta from Aishiteruze Baby (he is Yuzuyu's classmate; the one who is beaten by his mother). It would happen a lot more often except there are not many male characters - in the series that I tend to watch, anyway - who are presented in a fashion that would cause me to have that reaction. IMO, Sushi-Y probably has the right idea: "Since male characters in animes/mangas are generally portrayed as being strong (a leading character, for example) and non-submissive, it makes them ineligible as targets of moe?" Only maybe not so much ineligible as rare and/or unlikely targets?

I still can't buy that. Not when a certain Kaname Chidori has been in this tournament. Let's not forget last year's winner, Takamachi Nanoha... I'd strongly argue she's anything but weak and submissive. Karura, Asakura Ryoko, Midori, among others. The list goes on.

No, I'm still of the opinion that "submissive" has nothing to do with it. Obviously submissive types are the most frequent targets of moe, but that hardly means that moe characters must be submissive.

[Kikaifan]

Like I said in the last thread, the fact that Balalaika attracted a few hundred votes pretty much throws the idea that people are voting exclusively on cuteness or vulnerability out the window.

Of course, what attracts votes in the tournament and what's actually 'moe' are entirely different debates... and I already proved I don't have a clue about the latter.

[Arimfe]

lols at topic

Originally Posted by Aaeru

There were some great results in there. The two most amusing for me were Kimura-sensei from Azumanga making it to the second round in the first tournament, and Fate's Bardiche doing the same in the second (and getting more votes than Chrono).

My personal favorite would have been Wolfram from Kyou Kara Maoh, and he did make it to round two, at least.

That Kimura-sensei, he's just so moe! (Well, I do kind of like him...)

Hey...if even Kimura sensei can be moe for some people, completely defining this moe thing will be one of the most challenging thing in mankinds history.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by Arimfe

completely defining this moe thing will be one of the most challenging thing in mankinds history.

An interesting way of finding out what's moe and what isn't, would involve putting the character in question in front of Rena, If she decides to take that character home, Bingo, instant moe.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Sister Princess

In this case, what's your definition on moe~ for following characters?
Fate Tessarossa
Chikaru (Strawberry Panic)
Shana
Nagato Yuki
Suzumiya Haruhi
Does tsundere, sexy clash with the key concept of moe~?

I take my understanding of moe from that conversation in the Tsukuyomi thread back in 2004 referenced earlier in the link from Psieye, with kj1980 as our arbiter, and from the quote from Akamatsu Ken mentioned by Sushi-Y. (Both of these sources are Japanese, so I think that at least some Japanese see the "desire to protect" aspect of the term.) For me, it has always required that the object of the feeling seem weak and you feel atavistically inflamed to protect her.

By that standard, I don't regard any of the girls in your list as moe. They all have moments that could stimulate moe feelings (even Haruhi), but I personally really don't think of any of them in that way. They are all too strong, most of the time.

However, I just looked at the Japanese Wikipedia article on moe, and the definition section seems to me (with my imperfect Japanese) to say nothing about the object being weak or in need of protection. In a table at the bottom of the page, however, it gives characteristics of the object of moe feelings, basically describing every feature of every girl that has ever been called moe. Quite remarkable -- as you would expect from Wikipedia on a subject dear to the hearts of otaku. In the table cell describing her character (and it seems to only talk about girls, although I agree that male moe should theoretically be possible), it says she could appear weak, be simple, be heedlessly optimistic, be tsundere or hate to lose, be cool, be meek, be sadistic or masochistic, or be an idiot.

What I take from all this is that the object of moe feelings probably originally had to seem weak and in need of protection, but the term has broadened considerably, so that it really does just mean "turns me on" now. I regret this, but so be it. If anyone whose Japanese is better sees something in that ja.wiki article or elsewhere to rescue the situation, please post.

[Sushi-Y]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

I still can't buy that. Not when a certain Kaname Chidori has been in this tournament. Let's not forget last year's winner, Takamachi Nanoha... I'd strongly argue she's anything but weak and submissive. Karura, Asakura Ryoko, Midori, among others. The list goes on.

No, I'm still of the opinion that "submissive" has nothing to do with it. Obviously submissive types are the most frequent targets of moe, but that hardly means that moe characters must be submissive.

(This is all my personal take on "moe" (using Akamatsu's "theory"), just for the record)

Being submissive is only an expression, it doesn't really mean that the character has to be "a weak character".

Moe is something established based on situations, you don't look at a character just standing there and say "moe~". Rather, her moe-ness comes from the circumstances that surround her.

Having said that, why are "fighting girls" moe? It's quite simple when you think about it: although they are "warriors" on the surface, underneath it all, they're still "girls" (=vulnerable, needs love, protection). They're capable of kicking butt, yes, but they're also capable of being an obedient, cute girl in front of their special someone. It's true that Nanoha is a strong warrior in battle, but aren't there also moments where she exposes her vulnerable and weak side, just like the cute girl she is? Those are the moments that gets people going "moe~". In fact, the difference between their "kick butt" mode and their "submissive" mode is what makes them so popular: the image of them being strong and determined only contrasts against their feminine side, which strengthens its impact.

This is pretty much the logic that "tsundere" is built on too. Saber from Fate/stay night, for example, is certainly not a "weak girl", in fact, she's quite the opposite. But the important thing is that she's capable of being one (in front of Shirou, for example), and she does become one (regardless of frequency). The impression when that occurs is "ahh, this is Saber's true self underneath her tough exterior: a cute vulnerable girl", which leads to "moe~".

On the other hand, it's much harder to feel moe for characters who remain "strong" all the time and never show any sign of "weakness", whether they're male or female (think baddie roles)

It's interesting you brought up Asakura Ryouko (and I'd add Tsuruya-san too), because they're those odd ones who never showed any clear weaknesses, yet still are still considered moe. For this one, you have the doujin/net community to thank: moe otakus/doujin creators love to delude (妄想) about characters in moe situations, especially for those who didn't get a chance to be moe in the original creation (since it's more meaningful than imagining an already-moe character).

In the end, it's all about feeling a desire to love and protect (perhaps pamper) the character when they're weak and vulnerable, which may be a rare situation for "fighting girls", which makes it all the more rewarding and moe.


The other explanation for moe deals with feelings of affection for certain aspects of a character, such as body features, profession, personality, etc. (see this for examples). This, in my opinion, isn't really what moe is about. Rather, "moe element" and "moe properties" are simply unique nouns used to describe preferences types, nothing more.

Again, like I said earlier, there is no correct description for moe out there, even the Japanese wiki entry made it really clear that there are many different ways to define it, but none will ever be correct because everybody has their own definitions.

If you ask me, it's really not that big of a deal, as long as we're all moe over the same characters, who cares what it means? ^^;

[panzerfan]

To be honest, moe in this context can be applied to male protagonists as well... an actual will to protect the individual due to their vulnerabilities I think is not a neccessity though. One example would be how that I am emphatic to Kyon's plights when the whole burden of the situation is on his shoulders and he cannot spill forth his anxiety to the very cause of the problem directly and has to alude to them and to a 3rd party time and time again. I can understand his own pains and sees him in flesh and blood, but also cheering for him as he triumphs over those limitations. That said, I only feel like defending his perspective, not so much pampering/protecting the fellow.

With Nanoha, I only feel a sense of respect and liking her for that and not seeing her as someone that requires that kind of protection with her own strength in persona, actually I love seeing her raising to the challenges. Fate though I feel more inclined to the idea of 'protecting' the figure. Of course, there's Suzumiya Haruhi which makes me boil in anticipation of what she might do next and start wanting to pick at her brain, and I wouldn't use empathy even for any of her plights.

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Sushi-Y

(This is all my personal take on "moe" (using Akamatsu's "theory"), just for the record)

Being submissive is only an expression, it doesn't really mean that the character has to be "a weak character".

Moe is something established based on situations, you don't look at a character just standing there and say "moe~". Rather, her moe-ness comes from the circumstances that surround her.

Having said that, why are "fighting girls" moe? It's quite simple when you think about it: although they are "warriors" on the surface, underneath it all, they're still "girls" (=vulnerable, needs love, protection). They're capable of kicking butt, yes, but they're also capable of being an obedient, cute girl in front of their special someone. It's true that Nanoha is a strong warrior in battle, but aren't there also moments where she exposes her vulnerable and weak side, just like the cute girl she is? Those are the moments that gets people going "moe~". In fact, the difference between their "kick butt" mode and their "submissive" mode is what makes them so popular: the image of them being strong and determined only contrasts against their feminine side, which strengthens its impact.

This is pretty much the logic that "tsundere" is built on too. Saber from Fate/stay night, for example, is certainly not a "weak girl", in fact, she's quite the opposite. But the important thing is that she's capable of being one (in front of Shirou, for example), and she does become one (regardless of frequency). The impression when that occurs is "ahh, this is Saber's true self underneath her tough exterior: a cute vulnerable girl", which leads to "moe~".

On the other hand, it's much harder to feel moe for characters who remain "strong" all the time and never show any sign of "weakness", whether they're male or female (think baddie roles)

It's interesting you brought up Asakura Ryouko (and I'd add Tsuruya-san too), because they're those odd ones who never showed any clear weaknesses, yet still are still considered moe. For this one, you have the doujin/net community to thank: moe otakus/doujin creators love to delude (妄想) about characters in moe situations, especially for those who didn't get a chance to be moe in the original creation (since it's more meaningful than imagining an already-moe character).

In the end, it's all about feeling a desire to love and protect (perhaps pamper) the character when they're weak and vulnerable, which may be a rare situation for "fighting girls", which makes it all the more rewarding and moe.


The other explanation for moe deals with feelings of affection for certain aspects of a character, such as body features, profession, personality, etc. (see this for examples). This, in my opinion, isn't really what moe is about. Rather, "moe element" and "moe properties" are simply unique nouns used to describe preferences types, nothing more.

Again, like I said earlier, there is no correct description for moe out there, even the Japanese wiki entry made it really clear that there are many different ways to define it, but none will ever be correct because everybody has their own definitions.

If you ask me, it's really not that big of a deal, as long as we're all moe over the same characters, who cares what it means? ^^;

I think we all have a fair idea what moe is, but the challenge is trying to put that meaning into words and describe it to other people. I still believe that too many are taking the wrong attitude to defining moe and trying to be too specific as to what is moe and what isn't. You just can't be specific, IMO, since moe is different from person to person, as are the reactions. I still stand by what I said in the old thread, the best way I can think of to describe moe is just something one finds cute.

And I disagree with what you're saying about Nanoha. While I can see what you're saying about the fact that she has a side different to when she's not fighting, I'd hardly call it a weak side. I'd say it's more a non-hostile side than anything else, but she's rarely if ever in a situation she can't control or backing away from the face of adversity. She almost always makes short work of internal personal conflicts and rarely struggles with her conscience. When she's not fighting, she's cute, but I'd hardly say she's weak.

Also, I'd consider Asakura moe even without whatever she's done in doujins. Personally, I don't take any considerations of non-canon works into my opinion of a character, and I'd suspect not many people do. She may not be weak, and never does show any signs of weakness during the series, but she is cute.

Edit: Actually, this is the best definition of what moe is:

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

An interesting way of finding out what's moe and what isn't, would involve putting the character in question in front of Rena, If she decides to take that character home, Bingo, instant moe.

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

An interesting way of finding out what's moe and what isn't, would involve putting the character in question in front of Rena, If she decides to take that character home, Bingo, instant moe.

We'll call it the "You got taken home" test!

[ando]

Shinku and Alice won.

Today's result:

Spoiler:

The first match
1位　1056票　真紅＠ローゼンメイデン トロイメント(Shinku@Rozen Maiden ~Traumend~)
2位　657票　伊藤伸恵＠苺ましまろ(Itoh Nobue@Ichigo Mashimaro)


The second match
1位　858票　アリス・キャロル＠ARIAシリーズ(Alice Carol@ARIA series)
2位　807票　レベッカ宮本（ベッキー）＠ぱにぽにだっしゅ！(Becky@Pani Poni Dash!)

October 4th


<<朝比奈みくる＠涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱>>(Asahina Mikuru@The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi)
<<アリシア・フローレンス＠ARIAシリーズ>>(Alicia Florence@ARIA series)

Spoiler:

<<朝比奈みくる＠涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱>>(Asahina Mikuru@The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi)

• 1093(group 11, 2nd)/7.65%
• -/-

1. 834(block E, group 3)/51.42%
2. 996(block E, group 2-1)/50.56%

<<アリシア・フローレンス＠ARIAシリーズ>>(Alicia Florence@ARIA series)

• 626(group 12, 2nd)/6.54%
• -/-

1. 661(block E, group 5)/51.92%
2. 579(block E, group 2-2)/38.02%

<<シャナ＠灼眼のシャナ>>(Shana@Shakugan no Shana)
<<アナ・コッポラ＠苺ましまろ>>(Ana Coppola@Ichigo Mashimaro)

Spoiler:

<<シャナ＠灼眼のシャナ>>(Shana@Shakugan no Shana)

• 524(group 3, 1st)/6.74%
• -/-

1. 712(block F, group 1)/55.07%
2. 884(block F, group 2-1)/48.62%

<<アナ・コッポラ＠苺ましまろ>>(Ana Coppola@Ichigo Mashimaro)

• 609(group 9, 1st)/7.47%
• -/-

1. 635(block F, group 6)/55.85%
2. 574(block F, gropu 2-2)/38.94%

Current voting thread:
アニメ最萌トーナメント2006　投票スレRound194
http://etc4.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/vote/1159881368

[rooboy]

I'm quite sad about Becky.

Today I'm voting for Mikuru-Beam and Ana.

[Sheba]

Shinku litterally steamrolled Nobue.

It gets me worried about Chikaru. Really. I am counting on the Strawberry Panic legion and the revenge votes to give Shinku a run for her money.

Alice vs Becky was actually more thrilling to follow. I really doubted Alice's victory for a while. Sadly, she gonna get Desu-ed.

[Kinny Riddle]

Spoiler for Oct 2nd results:

Block C2 - Oct 3rd
Itou Nobue - Strawberry Marshmallow - 657
Shinku - Rozen Maiden ~Traumend~ - 1056

Block D2 - Oct 3rd
Rebecca Miyamoto (Becky) - Pani Poni Dash! - 807
Alice Carroll - ARIA Series - 858

Voting for blocks C and D is now complete.

Spoiler for Round 4 Blocks A to D:

Block A - Oct 10th
Sonozaki Mion - Higurashi no Naku Koro ni
Sawachika Eri - School Rumble Series

Block B - Oct 11th
Fate Testarossa - Magical Girl Lyrica Nanoha A's
Takamachi Nanoha - Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's

Block C - Oct 12th
Minamoto Chikaru - Strawberry Panic!
Shinku - Rozen Maiden ~Traumend~

Block D - Oct 13th
Suiseiseki - Rozen Maiden ~Traumend~
Alice Carroll - ARIA Series

Blocks E and F would begin today.

http://saimoe2006.hp.infoseek.co.jp/ef3.txt

Spoiler for Oct 14th entries:

Block E1 - Oct 4th
Asahina Mikuru - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu
<<朝比奈みくる＠涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱>>,<<朝比奈みくる>>
Alicia Florence - ARIA Series
<<アリシア・フローレンス＠ARIAシリーズ>>,<<アリシア・フローレンス>>


Block F1 - Oct 4th
Shana - Shakugan no Shana
<<シャナ＠灼眼のシャナ>>,<<シャナ>>
Ana Coppola - Strawberry Marshmallow
<<アナ・コッポラ＠苺ましまろ>>,<<アナ・コッポラ>>

Two Itou Noiji series today.

The first match sees what is basically the epitome of "moe" - Mikuru being challenged by Alicia. A strong showing from Haruhi-ists is needed to ensure a SuzuHaru spot for the quarter finals. (If Mikuru wins, she'll face off either Haruhi or Yuki, thus guaranteeing that one of them will be in the quarters. )

The other match would see Shana-tan take on Ana. While it would seem like an easy match for Shana, her fans must be wary of being too complacent.

Current voting thread
http://etc4.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/vote/1159881368/

Code
http://banana236.maido3.com/~bs5114/a06/

As ando and me seemed to be doing the same things, we have agreed from tomorrow onwards that ando will do the results and graph statistics and I'll be responsible for the new day's entries and posters as well as coverage.

[IchiKyo]

Ah Ah This time is for Asahina-san and Shana

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

Itou Nobue - Strawberry Marshmallow - 657
Shinku - Rozen Maiden ~Traumend~ - 1056

This is the problem with hope. You keep holding on to it until the very last minute and then BANG!!, it slaps you in the face.



Anyway, I have no doubts whatsoever about my votes today. So lets get that code and do what must be done.

Good luck Mikuru, Good luck Ana.

EDIT:

Oh yeah, just leave it to Rena as far as moe issues are concerned.

[rei]

885 ：れい ：2006/10/03(火) 16:32:53

<<真紅＠ローゼンメイデン トロイメント>>
<<アリス・キャロル＠ARIAシリーズ>>

Looks like I was wrong about Nobue giving Shinku a hard time. Eventhough Alice made it through, she seems to be less popular than Aika. But all in all, I'm just glad that 'Junior' surpassed 'The Brain'

Mikuru VS Alicia
Since I'm not into Haruhiism, I'll be supporting Alicia in this one. Ara~ara~

Shana VS Ana
Nothing against Shana but Ana for me in this one. She really amuse me when she pretend that she was unable to speak/understand Japanese.

Blondes + blue eyes again for me