Does fansubbing/scanslations hurt sales??

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Thank you - that was the main thrust of my earlier points, yes.

I'm aware that gaming piracy does go on, but I don't see it anywhere near to the same degree that I see anime piracy going on.

I really don't know about that... but whether it's true or not, there's a difference with the piracy. It's up for debate whether fansubs hurt or help the industry (heck, that's what the topic is about) but we have agreed that at least some people use fansubs as a way to sample series, learn about series, and find series that they like. They later buy these series when they become available. Games are a bit different. I've heard of people using the same line of reasoning - they pirate the game to sample it and then buy the real thing later, but I think it's a bit different. With a game, you have the game to play. If you can play it and even finish it, why buy it? To a certain degree the same could be said of fansubs, but fansub quality is generally not yet on a level that can compete with the legit releases. Packaging and other physical material aside, a game is a full copy - no extras, whereas there are usually specials added on to an anime DVD.

One thing to keep in mind is that video games first become available to people in the actual material marketplace - in video game stores, basically.

That means that if you want to play a desired game ASAP (and most hardcore gamers do), then you either have to buy the game legitimately, or have some sort of video game disk-burning distributor as a friend that'll sell you a burned disk dirt cheep.

It depends what types of video games you're talking about. PC games are increasingly being sold online - you pay and download it, and you're provided with a CD key. I don't know how popular these services are compared with buying it in stores, but the option has been there for a while and it's still there to this day.

As for getting the game and playing it ASAP, the methods you mentioned are not used often. Since games shifted over to using optical media people simply distribute the ISOs and burn their own copies. That requires modding your system to run it. Another method (now sued out of existence) was boot loader software for the PS2. You didn't even need to burn the ISOs, just hook up an external drive to the PS2, run the bootloader software, choose your game, and that's it. One of my friends had that; load times were a heck of a lot faster than if we'd been using the DVDs.

The piracy of games may be a bit more involved than simply downloading and watching a fansub, but the scene is alive and well. I suppose that first copy has to come from somewhere, so sure, assuming there wasn't an internal leak then there's at least one sale made whereas fansubs are derived from one taping of a TV show.

It also doesn't help that anime is available in fansub format long before it's available in legal, licensed format - hence, the same "Get it ASAP!" drive that helps the gaming industry actually hurts the anime industry.

There are people who either import or pirate the Japanese copy of a game because they have that mentality, too. Not all of them speak Japanese (don't ask me why they do this if they can't understand what's going on) but it happens.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Umm, there's a specific amount of money added to the DVDs in order to pay for the middlemen's salaries. They don't do it for free, you know. If I could pay the Japanese companies directly without paying for the middlemen's salaries, it'd be cheaper.

I don't know that it'd be any cheaper. For certain there's a fee added on any time another company does a bit of processing, but have you seen the costs of anime DVDs in Japan? I was mad when I saw US companies releasing three episodes per disc; I figured we should have been able to fit five or six! But in Japan, if I remember right and last I checked (it was a long time ago) they were basically doing two episodes per disc and each disc was around $60 (? probably misremembering that). I wanted to buy a TV drama and the entire series (11 episodes) would have been $120. I don't know how much these things usually cost but that seemed pretty steep. Unless the Japanese companies viewed the foreign markets as something worth going after, I sort of doubt that the prices would get much lower than they currently are.

[WanderingKnight]

It's probably because the cost of living is much more expensive overall in Japan. Everything is heaps more expensive.

At any rate, if you don't lower the cost, it'll still mean Japanese companies will get more money than before.

[Ledgem]

Eh, is that really true? Someone said that the terms of licensing have changed, but in the past the American companies would have to front the licensing fees, regardless of sales. If they took a loss it didn't hurt the Japanese companies and the Japanese companies were the ones setting the price of the license, so I presume they were happy. On the other hand, making the Japanese companies market directly will force them to undertake the costs of localization and printing separate copies and such, all while taking a greater risk (possible unfavorable return on the investment)... hmm, I don't know.

[WanderingKnight]

On the other hand, making the Japanese companies market directly will force them to undertake the costs of localization and printing separate copies and such, all while taking a greater risk (possible unfavorable return on the investment)... hmm, I don't know.

Subs and distribution through the internet don't require a heavy investment (again, what Gonzo seems to be trying out right now). At least, it's thousands of times cheaper than dubbing and distributing via DVDs. Of course, American companies aren't going away (people are still gonna buy DVDs and dubs), but it opens an easier way to pay the Japanese companies directly, with little investment.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

At least, it's thousands of times cheaper than dubbing and distributing via DVDs.

From the various cost leaks we have seen, the large majority of the costs for an anime company are dubbing and licensing fees. The catch is that the dub is necessary thing in order to make back the licensing fees. Of course it is cheaper to do it without having to deal with the main costs. However, your profit is also going to be a fraction of what you would make through the normal channels.

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by tripperazn

I'd also contest that reading is easier than listening, I have much less difficulty with raw anime than manga. If the manga is seinen, without furigana, I likely wouldn't even bother trying.

Oh, really? Written texts allow you to use dictionary and to re-read as many times as you wish. I have much difficulty in listening foreign dramas while I understand them if written (though possibly because of my own linguistic incapacity).

Originally Posted by Ledgem

My teachers told me their experiences and this was also in my Japanese textbook (put out by the Japan Times, "An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese" I believe is the title). Of course, that doesn't make it true. But the understanding is that you study like hell when you're in high school to get into a big-name university, and then you have it made. You get your job more based on the reputation of your university than the work you've done in it. I believe you're Japanese, so I'll trust you if you say that such a thing isn't true or doesn't apply to the majority, but those are some interesting sources you're going up against.

OK, see the curriculum of the Japanese university. For example, here is a timetable of the computer science course in Tokyo University. Red bars are obligatory, other colors are selectable necessary options. In fact I have no experience in the US universities so I am not qualified to compare the two educational systems. MIT or Caltech might be far more strict.

There is one point to be cared about;

Japanese students are separated into two categories since the second year of the high schools; humanity and social science (bun-kei / 文系) on one hand, technology and natural science (ri-kei / 理系) on the other hand.

In bunkei courses in university (literature, sociology, history, law, political science...) it is usual that the majority of students work relatively not so hard. It's because most of them will become businessmen/women and the future employers do not regard such knowledge as critically important for their commercial activity. Exceptions are those who are going to be legal professionals, national bureaucrats, economic analysts and so on.

In rikei, students are required to study, do experiments and write tons of reports everyday. They often boast masochistically how little they sleep (I have heard some of them being proud of the ability to work three days without a nap). They have advantage in the job hunting because the companies offer certain number of seats to the laboratories. Japanese otaku-s tend to prefer rikei -- I don't know exactly why, they are absorbed in techniques and metal instruments and all geeky things.

[catrlgirl]

Really I don't think the affect of fansubbs and scanlations can be discussed without discussing the differences between the cultures. The reason manga and anime are so much cheaper than japan is of course because that is where they are made. However it is also because Anime and Manga are seriously not that popular with adults and teens lie it is in America. I have many japanese friends living in japan(I am learning it) and they are around my age. Thye find it wierd that I still like anime at my age (17) some people do but majority are ounger viewers so the fansub community really does help by opening it up to older viewers. Also they make it possible to see without all the annoying censorship an re-writing to protect feeble American minds from the complicated ideas of sex(uality)
There are big differences and the market doesn't recognize that os it seems stressful to actually buy the anime. I bought my favorite series and watch it often. I also plan to start a collection in college (THANK YOU SCHOLARSHIP) So fansubs may hurt the American production by cuting the middle man out but it actually help the Japanese companies quite a bit by exposing it here and raising the demand for export.

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by catrlgirl

The reason manga and anime are so much cheaper than japan is of course because that is where they are made. However it is also because Anime and Manga are seriously not that popular with adults and teens lie it is in America.

Are you sure?

Mangas are sold in Japan at lower price than in other markets overseas. Yes, in general. Animes are not. For example,

- 灰羽連盟 TV-BOX 12600 / 10210 (JPY)

- Haibane-Renmei: Complete Vols. 1-4 79.98 / 71.99 (USD)

And today's rate is that 1 USD = 101.60 JPY. You can calculate which is higher.

By the way, if "Anime and Manga are seriously not that popular with adults and teens" in Japan, who do you think sustains the million market?

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

OK, see the curriculum of the Japanese university. For example, here is a timetable of the computer science course in Tokyo University. Red bars are obligatory, other colors are selectable necessary options. In fact I have no experience in the US universities so I am not qualified to compare the two educational systems. MIT or Caltech might be far more strict.

There is one point to be cared about ...

I don't want to go too far off-topic, but I did just want to respond to this and say that it varies greatly. I wasn't aware that the science students in Japan work just as hard as they do in the US (according to you), and that makes sense. My Japanese language instructors weren't science types, and who would be writing my Japanese textbooks? Probably language/culture specialists, not scientists.

The US has a similar distinction with major types. Often, science specialists have to work incredibly hard and always have class, while people focusing on business, communications (not communication technology, but things like public relations, journalism, broadcasting, etc.) and fine arts are much freer. However, it also depends on what university you go to. Lower-tier universities tend to be easier, but some of the upper-tier universities are rather easy, as well (they engage in grade inflation to make their student body seem incredibly smart).

So the stereotype about Japanese universities may be biased due to the people who share their experiences. I'm friends with a Japanese dentist - I may ask her about her and her husband's university experience to verify what you said and see how she thinks it compares with the experience of American universities. Otherwise, I'm inclined to believe you, since it more or less matches universities here.

Originally Posted by catrlgirl

Really I don't think the affect of fansubbs and scanlations can be discussed without discussing the differences between the cultures. The reason manga and anime are so much cheaper than japan is of course because that is where they are made. However it is also because Anime and Manga are seriously not that popular with adults and teens lie it is in America. I have many japanese friends living in japan(I am learning it) and they are around my age. Thye find it wierd that I still like anime at my age (17) some people do but majority are ounger viewers so the fansub community really does help by opening it up to older viewers. Also they make it possible to see without all the annoying censorship an re-writing to protect feeble American minds from the complicated ideas of sex(uality)
There are big differences and the market doesn't recognize that os it seems stressful to actually buy the anime. I bought my favorite series and watch it often. I also plan to start a collection in college (THANK YOU SCHOLARSHIP) So fansubs may hurt the American production by cuting the middle man out but it actually help the Japanese companies quite a bit by exposing it here and raising the demand for export.

I don't think that anime is always cheaper in Japan, actually. I've said it before, and now I'm going to pull out evidence.

Please take a look at CDJapan's base anime DVD page. Take a look at those prices. If we convert it on the basic grounds that 100 Yen = 1 US Dollar (actual conversion is probably around 95¥ to $1 now), those prices are insane. Limited editions and special sets aside, you're looking at $40 for some of those DVDs. The Gurren Lagann DVDs, each containing three episodes, are going for around $60.

Just for kicks, now compare this with the prices for Gurren Lagann from American shops (only one DVD seems to be available, it is delayed). AnimeNation has it listed for close to $30 originally. That's essentially half the price!

I have no doubt that manga is cheaper, because I've bought "raw" manga from Kinokuniya and it's considerably cheaper than the American releases ($2-3 cheaper; given that manga can cost ~$7 that is a good amount). I'm really not sure where this idea that anime is always cheaper in Japan is coming from, though...

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by catrlgirl

The reason manga and anime are so much cheaper than japan is of course because that is where they are made.

With manga, it has to do with how many they print and the quality of the paper they are printed on. Japan prints and sells more books by a factor of 2x to over 10x depending on the title. They can afford to sell it for less because they have far more people buying it. Also, they use a lower quality paper in Japan for the manga thus helping to further decrease the price while increasing profits.

As others have said, anime is more expensive. We can probably count the exceptions on 1 hand.

However it is also because Anime and Manga are seriously not that popular with adults and teens lie it is in America.

Manga is pretty well accepted around Japan. I have seen older ladies reading Monster and business men reading some titles on the trains before. I've heard from other people that it is pretty common for adults to be seen reading it in public.

Also they make it possible to see without all the annoying censorship an re-writing to protect feeble American minds from the complicated ideas of sex(uality)

Please name one title that was purposely censored on DVD for the american market that was not targeted at kids. Hint: We are talking a total of ~3 out of over 150 titles in 2-3 years.

So fansubs may hurt the American production by cuting the middle man out but it actually help the Japanese companies quite a bit by exposing it here and raising the demand for export.

No, fansubs hurt the Japanese companies too. If you look at some of the shows on nico douga, many are taken from fansubs. They are too easy for Japanese people to get instead of having to buy or rent the DVD. Also, it can devalue a property for licensing fees.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Please take a look at CDJapan's base anime DVD page. Take a look at those prices. If we convert it on the basic grounds that 100 Yen = 1 US Dollar (actual conversion is probably around 95¥ to $1 now), those prices are insane. Limited editions and special sets aside, you're looking at $40 for some of those DVDs. The Gurren Lagann DVDs, each containing three episodes, are going for around $60.

MSRP is the best example to demonstrate your point, good job. However, there are much cheaper Japanese anime DVD outlets both online and offline; lots of stores in Japan don't sell at MSRP. Just take a look at HMV or Amazon JP online stores, please. But yes, R2s are more expensive than R1s, high R2 DVD prices are also the reason why their rental business is booming. It managed to get another 10-20% annual increase in sales, while the anime DVD market for general audiences managed to produce virtually the same sales numbers as last year's.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by bayoab

No, fansubs hurt the Japanese companies too. If you look at some of the shows on nico douga, many are taken from fansubs. They are too easy for Japanese people to get instead of having to buy or rent the DVD. Also, it can devalue a property for licensing fees.

That's weird that they're showing up on Nico but I have a hard time believing that Japanese are downloading fansubs in large quantities. The Japanese P2P networks have plenty of capped episodes (unsubbed, commercials removed) - this is where most of the fansub groups are getting their raws from. Why would the Japanese bypass their own networks, which are likely very fast for them, and navigate foreign sites to download the episodes with subtitles? I've seen Japanese IPs on fansub torrents before, rare as it was, but I always figured that those were foreigners visiting or residing in Japan.

Originally Posted by Toua

MSRP is the best example to demonstrate your point, good job. However, there are much cheaper Japanese anime DVD outlets both online and offline; lots of stores in Japan don't sell at MSRP. Just take a look at HMV or Amazon JP online stores, please. But yes, R2s are more expensive than R1s, high R2 DVD prices are also the reason why their rental business is booming. It managed to get another 10-20% annual increase in sales, while the anime DVD market for general audiences managed to produce virtually the same sales numbers as last year's.

Well of course you can get these DVDs cheaper - you can pick up entire series for around $14 from RightStuf when they're having special sales. I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese companies also have special deals and discounts. I'm ignoring those not only because it gets tricky to make a comparison, but it doesn't really matter, either. The fact is that the price cap (prices rarely go above MSRP) is much higher in Japan than in America. Unless you can prove that companies in Japan always or even often ignore their own MSRP and sell at or below American MSRP, mentioning sales isn't worth much - anime is more expensive over there than it is over here, despite what people seem to want to believe.

[catrlgirl]

Oh I did forget about the difference in worth point proven. I was just saying that anime has an older audience here and that it may be why the marketing is so affected.

However, I can admit when I am wrong thanks for setting me strait.

[zephyrus]

all i know is that by watching fansubs and reading manga scans, i don't have to buy the stuff from stores, so if there are even 100 people like me in the world that are doing the same thing, then its still hurting sales, even on a minute scale

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by zephyrus

all i know is that by watching fansubs and reading manga scans, i don't have to buy the stuff from stores, so if there are even 100 people like me in the world that are doing the same thing, then its still hurting sales, even on a minute scale

But then, if there were no fansubs/scans, would you even buy them?

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

That's weird that they're showing up on Nico but I have a hard time believing that Japanese are downloading fansubs in large quantities. The Japanese P2P networks have plenty of capped episodes (unsubbed, commercials removed) - this is where most of the fansub groups are getting their raws from. Why would the Japanese bypass their own networks, which are likely very fast for them, and navigate foreign sites to download the episodes with subtitles? I've seen Japanese IPs on fansub torrents before, rare as it was, but I always figured that those were foreigners visiting or residing in Japan.

More and more I've seen Japanese IPs on fansub torrents. It's grown from maybe 1/20, to more like 1/4th the downloaders for older batch torrents especially.

There's even a book out there published about how to use torrents to download shows, using Gundam Seed and this very website as examples that you can buy AT A SEVEN ELEVEN. (Not kidding, it's part of a "easy computer hacks" series that covers a lot of stuff like google tricks, etc, and there's a newish volume all about bittorrent).

Furthermore, have you ever used share or winny? It's not simple. Even for Japanese people. The reason they use torrents is the same reason that fansub watchers use torrents, because it's simple and it's fast. Also, they might think foreign torrents are safer than using domestic p2p due to recent prosecutions of winny uploaders. So although it hasn't been too much of an issue until recently, I think it's just going to get worse. There have been more and more raws uploaded to youtube as well lately, directly from Japanese users. People in Japan are following the same trends as people in the US, it's not like they all go out and buy those crazy-priced DVDs.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Umm, there's a specific amount of money added to the DVDs in order to pay for the middlemen's salaries. They don't do it for free, you know. If I could pay the Japanese companies directly without paying for the middlemen's salaries, it'd be cheaper.

How would it be cheaper?

And, in fact, if you eliminate the middleman in this particular business model you might actually end up paying more money.

Getting rid of ADV, Viz, et. al means no localization.
Which means no dubs.
Which means no TV exposure.

Which means no TV revenue and a smaller fanbase across the board, which itself leads to less volume of DVD's and paraphernalia such as T-shirts and dolls action figures being sold.

There's fewer people to sell to, which means that in order to make the same amount of money, price must go up.

[WanderingKnight]

Okay, let me get this straight, people love dubs, that's why they buy DVDs... and still fansubs are extremely popular and are killing the industry?

I can't seem to connect the dots here.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

I can't seem to connect the dots here.

You're threading in circles. A few of us have already expressed the possibility of fansubs devaluing the product. Scroll through the thread, I'm sure you'll find those posts quickly if you've paid enough attention. Also, while the majority of people do buy DVDs for English dubs, a sizeable portion of the market buys them to get a quality shelf-space product. If they're not the majority it doesn't make them any less important.

[Ermes Marana]

Fansubs (from tv source) do not hurt sales. They are just a replacement for tv. If not for fansubs, there would be much less interest in anime in the first place. Even in Japan people can watch a series on tv without buying it, and that is what builds the desire to buy it.


DVD rips on the other hand do hurt sales. They are high enough quality that people collect them. DVD rips also devalue DVDs.


You have to recognize the difference between the two IMO.