2006-08-20, 07:42 | Link #62 | |
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Gundam... It's just an action series with giant robots which usually features a militaristic theme for its designs and factions. I wouldn't classify any of the tv series as a "war drama". The OVAs usually are closer to that genre (or, at least, to war series in general), but they are held back by the set up of the tv series.
There just isn't a demand for that kind of series, and, the target audience of those tv series, in America and Japan, probably really doesn't care about that theme. Gundam's success is quickly explained because it isn't really about war, it's about the characters and robots. War is just a way to get robots around while avoiding Super Robot-type plots. Only after Eva, Gundam-type series seem to have noticed that a real war isn't necessary to avoid becoming a Super Robot show... Quote:
Most of the episodes which were cut seem to have been eliminated because they were too much "Super Robot"ish, though that's just my conjecture, but it does seem to common link between the cut episodes and scenes, especially in Eva's second half. Stuff like Asuka never having visited an amusement park before, Evas suddenly flying around to fight against an Angel, Unit-01's upgraded armor, and Shinji saving Asuka several times... |
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2006-08-20, 08:19 | Link #63 | |
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The thing about Gundam is it GAVE BIRTH to the Real Robot genre; no Gundam and all shows would pretty much be still Super Robot shows. War fit the bill nicely for the pattern, and basically, apart from terrorist or special op (eg. police) type plots and can be adapted to different situations like a rebellion against an empire or prince of a destroyed kindgom claiming back his land (L-Gaim, Panzer World Galient), or being pursued by your former employer after being betrayed/conspiracy (Votoms) are a couple of things that have been done in the war setting. |
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2006-08-20, 08:46 | Link #64 | |
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I'm not saying that Eva was the first to do it. There had been Real Robot-style series before Eva without wars, and series which constantly used Super Robot elements in a RR-style plot (like Dunbine), but only after Eva it seems to have become common place. I mean, currently, Gundam seems to be the only giant robot series which has traditional wars with traditional technology- the technology doesn't have some weird alien/magical/ancient origin- of course, Gundam's technology isn't realistic either. |
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2006-08-20, 10:28 | Link #65 | ||
Knight of Cheome
Join Date: Aug 2006
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If Eva has RR execution, Zeorymer must be as Real-Robot executed as you can get, which incidently predates Eva as well...
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2006-08-20, 13:08 | Link #66 | |||||
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I'm not saying that Eva created anything completely new, unrelated to anything released before, and that newer series are copying it. No. However, mecha series have changed. I mean... Look at RahXephon, Aquarion, Fafner and Eureka 7... There's hardly any series that can be considered a pure RR show anymore. Everything is mixed with other elements. Even Macross, which used the ancient technology plot, had alien enemies and a musical focus was more like Gundam than the lastest mecha series. Quote:
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FMP actually is comparable to Gundam. Well, at least, the episodes I've watched. Sure there are some mysterious elements and some weird technologies, but Gundam has its newtypes too. If those strange elements don't become the focus of the show later on, then it's actually a good example of fairly "pure" RR show (even though it's not particularly based on Gundam either, just like every other current mecha series). Last edited by NeonZ; 2006-08-20 at 15:17. |
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2006-08-21, 14:25 | Link #67 | ||||
Knight of Cheome
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You're pretty much right about Zeorymer, that was a bad example. I guess Dancougar would be better, where the heroes aren't kids but military people with a very gritty appearance, but it is a very hot-blooded Super Robot show. Maybe the J9 series where the whole setting is very 'real' except for the main characters and villians and their respective robots.
I must bring up, however: Quote:
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Of these: RahXephon, Aquarion, Fafner and Eureka 7. RahXephon is clearly a super robot, as is Eureka 7. RahXephon is Yuusha Raideen anew, Eureka 7 is a giant robot on a flying skateboard with a mysterious girl who crashes into the main character's house. I can't really comment on Fafner or Aquarion, so I'll leave it as two. There have been new shows of the old Super Robot classics too. Your point about FMP seems to hold true, so you can say that that is a recent 'hard' Real type, although with a comedy plot. There is also GaoGaiGar, which is very much a Super type, along with Betterman which is in the same Universe. Also, there is Godannar which is definitely a Super Robot show. On the real side again, we have Gasaraki. Then there is the (very) Super Robot show, Gear Fighter Dendoh. It seems that most modern shows are Super Robot, with a couple of 'hybrids' and a few Real Robot shows including the latest Gundam. This is very similar to what was around before; all in all, mecha series haven't changed that much at all post '96 in that light. There have always been more Super Robot shows than Real Robot shows, even in 80s though they really pushed it in that decade. Mystical elements don't push a show into either being Real Robot or Super Robot anyway, it's in the plotline and presentation. Same with angst, where I hear it was in Super Robot before Gundam and others were made, in the series Daimos. Anyway, I think we've digressed too far from the original topic; to me, Gundam is the beginning of the Real Robot genre but there's a bit more to it than that. |
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2006-08-21, 15:01 | Link #68 |
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Other than the philisophocal and psyco-semantic elements, I thought what EVA brought to the Super ROBOTs genre that's different from Gundam was that it humanized the Robots for the first time and in the context of a waring machine it gave them somewhat of a soul seperate from the association with the pilot exclusively. It also brought a strict physiological element to the mecha that has never quite been duplicated.
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2006-08-21, 16:32 | Link #69 |
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On the super/real robot discussion:
The 2 separate types of mecha are quite clear cut in the past, but recently the wall between them has started to break down. Even SRW has officially recognised 'hybrids' as a type of mecha along super and real. Its either super robot anime getting more realism or real robots getting more advanced and exotic technologies. Even pilots themselves are changing. Super pilots are hot blooded, while reals have angst, but now hot bloodedness and angst may be found in both types of anime or be absent from both. Those characteristics of super and real robots are starting to become cliches and because of that, the entire mecha anime has started to evolve into something that's no longer divided by super or real robots.
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2006-08-21, 19:58 | Link #70 |
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I agree with C.A. Outside of Super Robot Wars, there should really be no distinction between Super Robots or Real Robots; the distinction should simply be how relatively realistic the mecha are in their respective series.
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2006-08-22, 13:05 | Link #71 |
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I would say that's juat about true on the RR/SR divide, but don't go on like it's something recent that's evolving. Shows have always been in between the two extremes, but the 'real' extreme was defined by Gundam (the first one), even though it had a load of super elements to sell the kits.
Angst and a dark plot were in things like Daimos and Zambot 3 long before these newer series. The newer shows look flashier, more mysterious and all of these things; that's to be expected of more developed and recent animation and design techiniques. |
2006-08-24, 22:16 | Link #72 | |||||||
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1) either extremely generalized. Define your measurement for "extremely". According to the oxford dictionary a theme can be defined as: theme • noun ... 3 an idea that recurs in or pervades a work of art or literature. 4 ... So according to defintion 3. They are themes that occur in both seires. 2) aren’t particularly similar to Evangelion at all. The human instrumentality projects return people into LCL where their minds and body will be connected. Returning into something equivalent to the womb. The Angel Halo is a psychoframe that would in a sense enable all minds to connect and understand each other. But with the effect of returning people's mind into an infant state. I can't see how more similar you can get without being an exact copy. Quote:
1. You made yourself look more knowledgeable about Japan than you really are. 2. You are too lazy to even bother reading the short articles I posted to get a general idea of what I am talking about. Sure I guess I can read for you as well. Quote:
Another connection perhaps would be people like Katejina who, although serverly underdeveloped, has shown that she is in fact a lonely girl that just wants attention from people and to depend on. This is shown plainly in the final fight between Chronicle, Uso and her. Quote:
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2006-08-24, 23:07 | Link #73 | ||||
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<SNIP lots of stuff> Those correlations are extremely vague and can be applied to any number of other shows or other periods of history. You have yet to give me any compelling reason to think there's anything more to it than that. Quote:
Based off of what I know of Tomino, his works, and the like, I would very much stand by that initial assessment. While he seems to have mellowed over the last few years, I haven't seen anything to make me revise my impression. I don't really see what difference it makes exactly how many works of his I've seen, or how insightful Tomino is to having an impression of the man. To elaborate, I don't necessarily judge a man by his work per se, but I do judge a director by what he manages to put on screen. In this regard, I liked some of what he did, and I disliked some of what he did; as far as anime goes, isn't that all that's really important?
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2006-08-25, 02:47 | Link #74 | ||||||
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Even their motives are quite similar, to reduce human race to a lasting peace, an "evolved" unity either in the form of psychowave merging people's mind or in the physical form of LCL Quote:
Certainly a large number of shows will apply. As I have said, popular media reflect the people's mentality. V gundam is just part of it. Eva is another part of it and so are many more. Again what particularly do you find that a problem here? Quote:
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2006-08-25, 07:42 | Link #75 | ||
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And if you didn't think that there were only insignificant similarities between Victory and Evangelion, then what's the point of bringing it up in the first place? I could probably find that kind of commonality between Victory and Sailor Moon, or Rose of the Versailles, or Nausicaa, or any number of other shows. Quote:
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2006-08-25, 15:12 | Link #76 | ||
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I used the quantifier "How", to designiate that there exist similarities between them. But that statemetn does not indicate how much similarities are there. As long as there exist similarties that is beyond the trivial, I believe that statement is still considered true. Also the you might want to define "significant" abit. I generaly don't like this sort of qualifiers beucase they mean different things to different people. Must it be MSG-SEED kind of similarities for 2 shows to be "significantly" similar? If that is the case, then I have nothing to argue with you about. In my dictionary, SEED is pretty much half a clone. I am not quite sure how V gundam and Eva, both having the main plot driver being an organization that is bent on creating a new order through mechanisms that will reduce people into an infant state of mind to unite them can have the same level of correlation as say V gundam to Sailormoon. I would really like to see you point out similarities between Victory And Sailor Moon in any meaningful ways other than how some of the girls dressed skimpily? Or cite other similarities between those aforementioned titles and V gundam. Give me some insight. Quote:
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2006-08-26, 17:00 | Link #77 | |||||
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My point is that there aren't any real similarities between Sailor Moon and Victory. I'm sure that if I tried hard enough, I could find some convoluted argument to show some, but that's called desperation. Quote:
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2006-08-28, 15:03 | Link #78 | |||||
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provide any read arguments . You cliam that those "insignificant" similarities can be found in various other show. Why don't you show me how it is? Quote:
If you dont' find the significance, then I don't see why you have to 1. force such a word into my argument and make straw-man arugments. 2. response and OBJECT to a topic that isn't of any significance to you as if you are saying "no your significance is invalid beucase I don't find signficance in it" Quote:
Just to entertain you with more evidence anyway, The main architect of Angel Halo, the old guy that was pulling the strings at the back, such as putting Maria as a puppet figure such, has already spoken his real intention in the show near the end, which almost has the same vibe as Lorenz of Seele. Even in Eva we see various people using the situation to achieve thier various objectives. I could look up the episodes and quote them, if that is really needed. Quote:
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2006-08-29, 22:27 | Link #80 | ||||
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I finally found it! This link sums up most of my arguments in an amusing format:
http://www.eyrie.org/~dvandom/misc/Gundam.html Quote:
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