Fate/Apocrypha - Episode 1 Discussion / Poll

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

It's funny how this is all started by discussing/complaining about Mordred's Transformer-helmet .

Yes, it started about Mordred's helmet and somehow turned into "I am going to voice my grievances about Nasu and his narrative choices, especially gender-related, dictated by the necessity to cater to those godamned otaku.", I have a lot of grievance to voice regarding certain franchises, like Gundam and its super prototypes every once in a while dictated by Bandai wanting more toy promotion, but you dont see me in the Gundam subforums. Last thing mods and forum users want is another heated argument of that sort, like it happened every single time with KyoAni.

Spoiler for on complains about genderswap:

Good thing you didnt play FGO then, because a certain famous swordman whose life is the subject of a manga have been genderswapped, but had the excuse of coming from another universe where he is actually a girl. When this happened, Reddit have had a hilarious meltdown. And yes, FGO, like Apocrypha, is yet another parallel universe. Gotta accomodate the Mage of Kaleidoscope from Tsukihime.

Spoiler:

Just seeing Darnic bring me horrible memories of terribad rolls in FGO.

It's just too bad that it's not a longer episode. Introducing 14 Servants AND 14 Masters, not to mention Jeanne d'Arc was going to be a tall order. Akira Ishida did differently in his Apocrypha manga to give away Mordred's identity. I'd rather have seen that instead.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Yes, it started about Mordred's helmet and somehow turned into "I am going to voice my grievances about Nasu and his narrative choices, especially gender-related, dictated by the necessity to cater to those godamned otaku.",

Hey, I like Fate anime in general (probably except for Prisma Illya). I enjoy them right down to the absurd ones like Carnival Phantasm (it helps that I’m familiar with Tsukihime & Melty Blood before watching it). If I don’t like them, I wouldn’t be here. But even if I like something, I sure can voice my grievances with the franchise once in a while. I’m not bashing Fate, more like having fun with it by making fun about certain aspects of it (and how fans treat things too seriously sometimes) just like Carnival Phantasm, F/Z Omake episodes and some Fate spoof/comedy/omake mangas did. For that matter, I only brought up genderbend/swap in Fate because I see someone brought up authenticity regarding Fate’s servants and their techs.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I have a lot of grievance to voice regarding certain franchises, like Gundam and its super prototypes every once in a while dictated by Bandai wanting more toy promotion, but you dont see me in the Gundam subforums. Last thing mods and forum users want is another heated argument of that sort, like it happened every single time with KyoAni.

If you like Gundam and is passionate about it, you’re very welcomed to voice your grievances in the subforums.

TL;DR…

 

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We can have a good discussion from it. Most Gundam fans in Asuki are not blind fans who put Gundam anime on a pedestal.

Originally Posted by Sheba

Spoiler for on complains about genderswap:

Good thing you didnt play FGO then, because a certain famous swordman whose life is the subject of a manga have been genderswapped, but had the excuse of coming from another universe where he is actually a girl. When this happened, Reddit have had a hilarious meltdown. And yes, FGO, like Apocrypha, is yet another parallel universe. Gotta accomodate the Mage of Kaleidoscope from Tsukihime.

Spoiler:

Just seeing Darnic bring me horrible memories of terribad rolls in FGO.

Good thing indeed. I think I know what character you're talking about and I certainly don't want to see a (lazy) genderbend of him .

Originally Posted by Sheba

It's just too bad that it's not a longer episode. Introducing 14 Servants AND 14 Masters, not to mention Jeanne d'Arc was going to be a tall order. Akira Ishida did differently in his Apocrypha manga to give away Mordred's identity. I'd rather have seen that instead.

I also think the execution of this episode left me wanting. Something tells me it could've been (a lot) better even without Ufotable. I voted "average" on the poll not because I'm hating or bashing, but merely because I felt somehow underwhelmed by it.

[Tenzen12]

Yes, it's pretty much staple of Fate franchise take huge liberties in characterisation and powers of famous "heroes" though even definition of that is inconsistent. You can like it or hate (I like it), but what you can isdeny it. Only difference between Sengoku basara and fate is that Fate use lot of words to explain why these people are ridiculous, where later just take it and run with it.

[DemonneoPT]

I mean, Fate has magic. Just by that, why even expect something realist from it's characters to begin with? Just because they share the name of famous people of our world? If King Arthur can fight like Goku and throw beams out of his sword, "him" being a "she" is the least of my worries here..lol

I see Fate as a fun battle royale match with cool powers, badass characters and nice dialogues between them. That's why i love this so much. And Ufotable animation took it to the next level. I just hope A-1 can at least keep the same animation quality used in the first episode. It would be nice

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

I mean, Fate has magic. Just by that, why even expect something realist from it's characters to begin with? Just because they share the name of famous people of our world? If King Arthur can fight like Goku and throw beams out of his sword, "him" being a "she" is the least of my worries here..lol

That’s actually my point when people are addressing and complaining about Mordred’s Transformers-helmet being too advanced for the period when we have Gilgamesh flying around in an aircraft and a female Arthur spamming destructive beams like Goku. I mean, if people are okay with those, Mordred's "futuristic" helmet should be nothing .

From a story standpoint, I have no problem with genderswap Arthur. I'm just not a fan of it from the meta perspective (aka. marketing stunt) especially when many other servants gets to keep their "correct" gender XD

[germanturkey]

crazy that netflix isn't releasing this week by week. thank god utw reformed for this..

[Dengar]

I think there's a bit too much hubbub. I always marvel at how well researched the actual mythology often is in these stories, even with the deliberate changes. The story often refers to some obscure references that actually do exist that not everyone knows about. The aztec flying machine has some actual basis in legend.

While I doubt there's something all that interesting said about Mordred's armor... A magical armor that can remove its helmet like that isn't really all that law defying. Using magic to make things move is like one of the most basic things magic can do.


Also, I'd like to point out that Oda Nobunaga (as well as Souji Okita) is a joke character, so it's not really fair to use her as an example.


There are a fair amount of women in legends and myths, sure... But most of them are sorceresses or witches. Just saying.

The fact that some of the gender bent characters are actually very well written and likable also helps.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Dengar

There are a fair amount of women in legends and myths, sure... But most of them are sorceresses or witches. Just saying.

But not all of them are sorceress or witches. That's the point. I would've given the writer(s) of the Fate series an extra accolade if they actually use legendary/historical warriors who are actual females (complete with their background stories) precisely because they are rare. Asia's history and literature alone have a notable number of female warriors (Hua Mulan and Tomoe Gozen being two of the obvious ones). Heck, Re:Creators that's airing this season has a version of Hangaku Gozen as Stand-ish guardian spirit for one of the protags. IMHO Genderswapping a heroic male figure (one of the most famous and well-known at that) is both an easy/lazy way out (for obvious reasons) and also a hassle because it will produce unnecessary convolution once you take it seriously. For example, I bet Mordred's origin in Fate is more complicated/convoluted than the actual legend, all because Arthur (sorry, Arturia) is now a girl .

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

(Hua Mulan and Tomoe Gozen being two of the obvious ones)

My retort to this is very simple and obvious.

"Who?"


Also, I'm sure you are aware how the practice of genderswapping well known people actually started. It's just a ball that started rolling and kept going.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Dengar

My retort to this is very simple and obvious.

"Who?"

You don't even know Mulan even though she's already widely known all over the world thanks to Disney?

You can't use lack of popularity as an argument because Nasu & friends can make those female warriors famous figures if they want. Also, if they can make Shiro (who is a totally made-up character) a servant, they sure as hell can make the rarely-known historical/legendary female warriors servants too.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Also, I'm sure you are aware how the practice of genderswapping well known people actually started. It's just a ball that started rolling and kept going.

Just because it's a ball that started rolling and kept going doesn't mean it's good.

[DMurphy]

Petition to have Grace O'Malley show up as Servant in something. The best servant.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

Petition to have Grace O'Malley show up as Servant in something. The best servant.

Where do I sign up?

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

You don't even know Mulan even though she's already widely known all over the world thanks to Disney?

You can't use lack of popularity as an argument because Nasu & friends can make those female warriors famous figures if they want. Also, if they can make Shiro (who is a totally made-up character) a servant, they sure as hell can make the rarely-known historical/legendary female warriors servants too.

Just because it's a ball that started rolling and kept going doesn't mean it's good.

I don't know, I don't really think being in a disney movie is enough by itself to qualify for being well-known. Plus you know, I would hardly call Mulan iconic. And I'm not just talking about in-universe here. I'm talking about in general. I don't think any of these would qualify as being the protagonist's servant.

And I merely countered your argument for them being "lazy". King Arthur in the original concept was in fact male (and the protagonist was female). The genders were flipped for marketability.

Originally Posted by DMurphy

Petition to have Grace O'Malley show up as Servant in something. The best servant.

Who?

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Who?

Irish queen who took to life as a pirate. Kidnapped a man's son because he was inhospitable. Nearly wiped out an entire clan because they killed one of her lovers. Once had an audience with Queen Elizabeth I where they both spoke Latin, because O'Malley didn't speak English and Elizabeth didn't speak Irish. A very well-remembered figure in Irish and British history.

Top tier Servant material.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

Petition to have Grace O'Malley show up as Servant in something. The best servant.

Best? The characters from the Mahabarata would beg to differ. There, this is a fcking shounen manga, and canon games showed them powerful enough to give Gil a run for his money.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I don't know, I don't really think being in a disney movie is enough by itself to qualify for being well-known. Plus you know, I would hardly call Mulan iconic. And I'm not just talking about in-universe here. I'm talking about in general. I don't think any of these would qualify as being the protagonist's servant.

That's what you think. Mulan is a great protagonist which already proven not only by the Disney movie, but also in Chinese/Hong Kong movies. And like I said, lack of popularity is not a factor once Nasu decided to make a servant.

Originally Posted by Dengar

And I merely countered your argument for them being "lazy". King Arthur in the original concept was in fact male (and the protagonist was female). The genders were flipped for marketability.

That was my point since my post in previous pages. I don't like the "genderswap for marketing stunt"-aspect. It's lazy to me. They should've either kept their decision of using the male Arthur or used actual female figure without going the easy way for marketing if they are confident with their story, and not succumbing to the generic market demand.

Originally Posted by Sheba

Best? The characters from the Mahabarata would beg to differ. There, this is a fcking shounen manga, and canon games showed them powerful enough to give Gil a run for his money.

As long as they use actual female figures, I'm down with it.

[MeoTwister5]

TBH I am not exactly a fan of the alternate stories of the Fateverse. I'm a bit of a purist you see and pretty much prefer the original continuity of Stay Night and Zero. The onyl other side story I got into was Extra.

That said the episode kind of started similar to how the first episode of Zero went so that's a good thing. Kind of hard for me to gauge my potential appreciation here since this is one of the parts of the Fateverse I'm not familiar with

At least I can say that Jean and Mordred are hot AF. And voiced by Maaya Sakamoto and Miyuki Sawashiro no less.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

As long as they use actual female figures, I'm down with it.

None of the Mahabarata guys got genderswapped. Done with the genderswap topic yet?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Look, there is already a Mahabarata character in Apocrypha and he is a guy. Done with the genderswap topic yet?

If he's not genderbent then yes, I'm done (until another genderbent character appears). Still, isn't your post above a spoiler?

[Tenzen12]

Yes it is.