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View Poll Results: Macross Delta - Episode 23 Rating
Perfect 10 4 23.53%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 2 11.76%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 5 29.41%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 5.88%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 11.76%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 11.76%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 5.88%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2016-09-06, 03:15   Link #61
Mistyclear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HirouKeimou View Post
Um... NUNS covered up all the information regarding this incident and considering Windermere showcased it, I'm less inclined to believe their side at this point given a) how Gramia rebuilt said wreckage as a continuous reminder of a sin which is never proven on both sides and b) how Roid is using it to encourage the Aerial Knights into action (including Keith, and especially Bogue).

There are two sides to this story and while Windermere could be right, I also argue the other side is untold.



All your post is explaining is where he a) received the bomb and b) decided to do with it. Again, what is his motive for doing this!? All we know is he receives a dimensional weapon, drops it on a NUNS base, and kills hundreds or thousands of civilians in the process. It's all we're given because he's dead. You're arguing it's his motive but it's really not. A motive is where he believed he'd be doing something for a grander picture and/or for personal gain and I argue he does not gain a thing for this. In fact, I argue he's ruining his son's life and relationship with Freyja because he did it (even if he didn't know it would be so bad), and oh yes is ruining millions of civilizations because this bomb incident became a catalyst for Windermere to begin a universal war with every other civilization in the universe which is under NUNS protection/law.



I'll agree on it possibly being how his plane crashed; dimensional bombs and/or even nuclear ones in real life cause all kinds of issues for escaping impact.

However, I'll argue even if they did find his wreckage, how could Windermere identify it? It's not one of their planes so it'd be a question of how their system could identify this plane and in its state of wreckage be rebuilt so it's like it's so-called "original version". It's a mass produced Valkyrie which is built specifically for NUNS soldiers; so I don't believe this is the original plane belonging to Wright. This is my logic because Arad and Kaname are on a NUNS base in this episode and it's completely bare and no military during an "abandon ship escapade" will ever grab all of their units and/or weaponry. In other words, this could be a Valkyrie grabbed on the abandoned base which resembled his Valkyrie. Again, it'd be logical: Why spend money and/or resources you don't really have on rebuilding something which is a continuous reminder of why Windermere has so little when you could take a Valkyrie from the base and claim it's the one from that time? Less time and money and resources.

I'll believe his body is found in the cockpit of the original wreckage though.

It's not that I'm arguing your interpretation of this is wrong, it's just there's a lot of facts up in the air on this subplot.

I'm not likely to believe either side at this point because NUNS cares little about their soldiers and hides screw-ups entirely for their own reputation and Windermere only wishes for revenge so screwing around with truths could benefit them in both grabbing their peoples' support and also gaining attention from the NUNS by bringing up a screw-up they buried which affected their reputation.

@Vallen_Chaos_Valiant: The problem with said motive is the whole point of the Windermere independence is to not be associated with NUNS at all, not begin World War III in space with other civilizations which had nothing to do with Windermere at all! This, of course, is something implied in episode 17. After all, if dropping a bomb on Windermere will spur all of Windermere to needlessly attack every species in the world and/or mind control them for so-called "independence" then this is not so much a logical motive since the endgame of said motive is against everything the Independence Force stood for (releasing Windermere from NUNS and peacefully resolving the conflict so Windermere is able to live in peace again).
First your question was how is Windermere so positive that it was Wrights plane was the one that dropped the bomb and I answered the video, if someone edited it so be it but the average Windermere citizen and the Aerial Knights (and I believe Roid as well) believe that video to be true. I did not take your question as asking for the truth on what actually happened.

Second I never said anything about Wrights personal motive (the guy is dead how am I supposed to know) I simply repeated what Arad stated happened.

Last I'm sincerely hoping it was the crash that killed him and not some random third party, since I'm sure we all agree Delta doesn't need anymore parties .
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Old 2016-09-06, 06:56   Link #62
Forever
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Simple. Someone decided that the best way to give Winderemere their independence is by destroying the base with the bomb.

And to do that, they used a Human pilot who could be blamed for working with NUNs, so the civilian deaths could be blamed on NUNs.

The result is Windermere got their independence, and the civilians get their outrage against NUNs which is useful for justifying the next war.

From the prospective of the Windereme government, it is win-win to kill these civilians.
Yup just VAR the pilot, spike the plane with the bomb and he will drop the bomb.
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Old 2016-09-06, 08:56   Link #63
Mistyclear
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Pfff. JUNNA wishes because Keith is her favorite and she always gushes about him. But I don't think either Mikumo or Keith are interested in romance, both have bigger stuff to deal with and there's only three episodes left. Mikumo's storyarc seems to be about connecting with Walkure to humanize her and Keith with his brother. Admitably, if Delta were overhauled to focus on an actual plot related love triangle, it would be Roid/Mikumo/Keith, IMO. Because those are so far the only characters with Heinz with some plot weight...

Yeah... the writing has been so bad for the actual main characters because they feel like guest stars lately.

Yeah.... Keith, Roid and Mikumo are taking center stage at the current moment, their screen time certainly went up since episode 18 and onwards. As for a romantic triangle between the three.... Keith and Mikumo I don't really have an opinion on, Roid and Mikumo-- he's starting to really scare me so no (Run Mikumo Run! There's a scary man whose into bondage and proceeds to tell you he'll spread his wings for your sake... While you're still tied up no less!).
Yeah sorry if she has to pick between these two, then I'd go with Keith... At least he's straight forward with no hidden agenda... Probably (At least he doesn't touch a person and change an unconscious woman's clothes without permission).
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Old 2016-09-06, 10:51   Link #64
Benigmatica
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By the way, if Wright Immelman supposed to drop a dimensional bomb onto a NUNS base, how come there's another one that Arad and Kaname found on this episode?

Unless NUNS has two or more garrison base in Windermere, bombing one base might be enough to rally the Windermereans into hating the New United Nations but it wouldn't be enough to stop the troops from another garrison base... unless the NUNS ordered them to retreat.

Also, I think what Freyja saw was that her village got caught in the dimensional explosion instead of dropping the bomb onto the supposed target.
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Old 2016-09-06, 11:57   Link #65
Mistyclear
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Originally Posted by Benigmatica View Post
By the way, if Wright Immelman supposed to drop a dimensional bomb onto a NUNS base, how come there's another one that Arad and Kaname found on this episode?

Unless NUNS has two or more garrison base in Windermere, bombing one base might be enough to rally the Windermereans into hating the New United Nations but it wouldn't be enough to stop the troops from another garrison base... unless the NUNS ordered them to retreat.

Also, I think what Freyja saw was that her village got caught in the dimensional explosion instead of dropping the bomb onto the supposed target.
Ya they had multiple bases on Windermere just like they have multiple bases on other planets as well.
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Old 2016-09-06, 16:35   Link #66
Random14
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Finished watching the sub, and ugh, back to the slow pace. The first half was decent, with Freyja and Mirage almost actually discussing the triangle (as well as Freyja reminiscing about her homeworld), but the second half felt like stalling, with that tour of misery and guilt or whatever. Doesn't help that Hayate is on the dense side, so he says stuff like he won't actually believe until he sees the blast crater, then he actually believes them.

Why couldn't Arad have died instead of Messer? Then again, if Arad had died, we might not have noticed. Even with Walkure already having lost their two most powerful (and thus important) members, he still just says head for the meeting point. Not even a "trust in them to escape and meet up with us" line. At least I don't think there was a line like that? After that picnic, they ceased to be important again.

Its cute seeing Mikumo loosen up a bit, but its hard to care this late. She spent a while in a coma, and now there's no time to enjoy a more casual Mikumo when we're almost at the finale. Walkure and Delta really aren't good at this infiltration thing. It would probably be too much to hope for Macross Elysion to show up in orbit and attack as a distraction, huh?
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Old 2016-09-06, 21:33   Link #67
Benigmatica
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Originally Posted by Mistyclear View Post
Ya they had multiple bases on Windermere just like they have multiple bases on other planets as well.
Okay, but my concern is why did Wright drop a bomb onto Freyja's village instead of his intended target unless something fishy is going on?
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Old 2016-09-06, 21:37   Link #68
Mistyclear
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Okay, but my concern is why did Wright drop a bomb onto Freyja's village instead of his intended target unless something fishy is going on?
He didn't drop it on her village, Ravengras, he dropped the bomb on Carlisle where the base was located.
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Old 2016-09-06, 21:50   Link #69
HirouKeimou
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He didn't drop it on her village, Ravengras, he dropped the bomb on Carlisle where the base was located.
I believe Benigmatica is referring to her original home, not her current one. It's more than implied by Freyja (in prior episodes, especially episode 16) that her parents were killed in the explosion so I believe that's what Benigmatica is asking about.

Her birth town is never specified (unless I missed something) so... there is a possibility her parents were in Karlisle during the explosion and she was adopted/raised by villagers in Ravengras...

I don't know; Thess, is it ever specified in the novels that Freyja was born in Ravengras or not?
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Old 2016-09-06, 22:01   Link #70
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@HirouKeimou
I think the possibility that she saw her hometown Karlisle being destroyed. Of course, since they're many garrison bases in Windermere, it could be that one of them is located near Karlisle. If not, it's basically just putting a bomb onto a village whether it was an accident or it was purposely dropped it.

Still, the only question remains is whether Freyja Wion's music player contains evidence that the whole bombing thing was set-up by either the Windermere independence faction, the Epsilon Foundation, some corrupt NUNS officials, or all of the above.
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Old 2016-09-06, 22:12   Link #71
Convoy
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If Mikumo is an android replica of the Windermereans' Star Singer, then when did Chaos get ahold of all the necessary data? Pre-war of independence?
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Old 2016-09-06, 22:28   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Convoy View Post
If Mikumo is an android replica of the Windermereans' Star Singer, then when did Chaos get ahold of all the necessary data? Pre-war of independence?
Maybe it was Lady M who took it and give the information to Chaos, I think.

On the other hand, I'm suspicious is to why Lord Roid knows about Hayate's father.
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Old 2016-09-06, 23:32   Link #73
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If Mikumo is an android replica of the Windermereans' Star Singer, then when did Chaos get ahold of all the necessary data? Pre-war of independence?
Mikumo's not an android. She's a clone. So I guess the question is, where did Lady M get star singer DNA?
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Old 2016-09-07, 00:13   Link #74
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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If Mikumo is an android replica of the Windermereans' Star Singer, then when did Chaos get ahold of all the necessary data? Pre-war of independence?
Protoculture do use robotics, but it isn't their preference. Protoculture prefer bio-engeneering and organic synthesis. Star Singer was never a mechanical robot, because it is literally easier for Protoculture to build living designer organisms.
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Old 2016-09-07, 03:07   Link #75
encia
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Mikumo's not an android. She's a clone. So I guess the question is, where did Lady M get star singer DNA?
Sara and Mao Nome has enough DNA fragments for high subspace(bio-fold) field emission level humans.

Since the end of space war 1, Lady M of Chaos was researching the power of music and Dr Mao Nome is a candidate to be "Lady M".

Lady M is responsible for Mikumo and Chaos.

Mikumo doesn't know if She is a clone or natural human.

Last edited by encia; 2016-09-07 at 03:39.
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Old 2016-09-07, 07:56   Link #76
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Here my theory who true culprit if based on Macross Plus plot and past episode

I think Keith are the one who drop the bomb although most likely not knowing what's the payload, My theory is that Keith was giving mission to drop bomb at NUNS base to end the war and bomb supply by Roid who claimed that this bomb will guarantee victory and win independence. What Keith doesn't know was that bomb is really Dimensional bomb which Roid purchase from other source which most likely Epsilon Foundation. During bombing run Wright somehow found out about the bomb and fly to stop the bomber. However when he found out the bomber is Keith, he fly at the side of Keith and try to convince Keith to stop due to he unable to shoot down child. However Keith rather trust Roid and drop the bomb. The reason Keith does not remember is I think due to his head injuries. After all he did crash his SV and receive head injuries after bombing and possible trauma block that memories. Then Roid use that as propaganda and achieve goal of independence. After all Roid did not denied that Voldor elder accusation on Windermere the one drop Dimensional bomb on their own planet.

Or Wright got Var by Roid to drop bomb or Roid himself the one who drop the bomb. Or Wright found out the dark secret weapon that potentially destroy planet Windermere and forced to use dimensional bomb to stop awakening of terrible weapon.

What do you guys think?
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Old 2016-09-07, 08:10   Link #77
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Keith was, like, eight years old at the time? We already had a flashback to him weeping at the crater.
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Old 2016-09-07, 08:25   Link #78
HirouKeimou
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I agree with magnuskn; Keith is a child during the bombing incident. And also, nor could it be Roid, who is about his age, too (even if it'd fit his character at this point in the story).

Of course, it could be a member of the Aerial Knights because we do have two senior members (one is dead now though). However, I don't believe it'd go unnoticed and even more so I don't believe Gramia would let it go without execution (he's really adamant about not harming his planet). And finally, if it is an Aerial Knight, boy did they edit the footage for that show-and-tell video of the bombing (unless they stole a NUNS plane).

It's not a member of Windermere who dropped the bomb, or not so far could it be proven. We'll more than likely find out (and if not, I'll kill this show for this damn subplot which is really full of holes).
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Old 2016-09-07, 08:40   Link #79
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The flashback shows that he was piloting SV and crash landed after bombing.
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Old 2016-09-07, 09:17   Link #80
Kazu-kun
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Sara and Mao Nome has enough DNA fragments for high subspace(bio-fold) field emission level humans.
Yeah but there's the fact that Mikumo remembers Windermere. I think an actual protoculture Star Singer lived in Winderemere in the distant past and Lady M somehow got a hold of her DNA and used it to create Mikumo.
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