F/SN UBW TV - Episode 22 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I'm still quite unsure how bathing isn't family friendly. Not like anything "mature" happens.

Just wanted to make sure, monster has been saying that bathing scene is more family friendly compared to an actual sex scene, that makes you guys more or less on the same side (unless you don't think sex scenes need censoring either! ).

Though I guess someone only need to point out Prisma Ilya to prove the point of erotic bathing.

[Levani]

I have a question.

Did Kirei have the Magic Crest of the Tohsakas? Or did he transplant it from Tokiomi's corpse? And can't Rin take the Crest back after Shirou is done using it?

People who are blaming Ufotable for something that the source material also had are ridiculous. If there's someone to blame, it's the person whose idea was the transplant thing. And I think I read somewhere that Nasu confirmed RN version to be canon?

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Levani

I have a question.

Did Kirei have the Magic Crest of the Tohsakas? Or did he transplant it from Tokiomi's corpse? And can't Rin take the Crest back after Shirou is done using it?

People who are blaming Ufotable for something that the source material also had are ridiculous. If there's someone to blame, it's the person whose idea was the transplant thing. And I think I read somewhere that Nasu confirmed RN version to be canon?

Originally Posted by Fate/Zero Vol. 4

Rin just nodded in silence hearing those words of praise for her. Her left wrist had already been carved with the Magic Crest of the Tōsaka family. Her body was still not used to the Crest that had only recently been grafted and kept on inflicting pain on her. But there was no sign of agony shown on the young girl’s face, and she endured the funeral until the very last minute. Indeed, this willpower of hers didn’t match her age.

The letter that Tokiomi wrote, which entrusted everything to the Association after his death, was almost perfect; it was truly a real portrait of the man himself. The transfer of the body and the extraction of the Crest were all entrusted to the Association’s headquarters in London by Kotomine Kirei, Rin’s guardian. The Crest was handed to Tokiomi’s friends to be guarded securely to ensure that it would be impeccably transplanted onto Rin’s body in the future.

Transplanting a Crest into someone will cause a great burden to the body, therefore it was best to transplant it to the family successor before his or her secondary sexual characteristics have developed completely. However, when the previous Head suddenly passes away, many unthought-of difficulties often would occur. But Tokiomi had overcome this and made impeccable preparations. He had passed the essence of magecraft that the Tōsaka house had complied over the generations all unto Rin without omitting a single thing.

And Rin disabled the function of the magic crest. The magic in it is lost forever.

[Levani]

It's somehow in-character for Rin to completely middle finger the work of her ancestry.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Levani

It's somehow in-character for Rin to completely middle finger the work of her ancestry.

Considering she immediately decided to save Shirou with a century-old heirloom... Yeah, I'd say it's in-character.

Well, she's a genius, so she shouldn't have any problems. Touko also didn't get the crest and she is awesome in everything. It's just her descendants will have to start anew, if they intend to become magi (and Rin receiving the crest, and not Sakura, was part of the reason why Tokiomi gave one child away for adoption, so yeah...). Starting from scratch doesn't really sound like a good idea, if the alternative is having sex with the person you love.

[Levani]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Well, she's a genius, so she shouldn't have any problems. Touko also didn't get the crest and she is awesome in everything. It's just her descendants will have to start anew, if they intend to become magi (and Rin receiving the crest, and not Sakura, was part of the reason why Tokiomi gave one child away for adoption, so yeah...). Starting from scratch doesn't really sound like a good idea, if the alternative is having sex with the person you love.

Rin sacrificing something so important for Shirou also speaks volumes about how much she cares for him.

So, now that Rin doesn't have this, how does it affect her power as a Mage?

[Fizix]

This was a good episode IMO. We needed a cool down before the final battle, especially after all the action beforehand. I think when its released as a DVD/Blu Ray or if people are watching it in blocks after its aired then it will feel very well placed.

The only criticism I have is about the "sex scene". I agree with others who have said that it would be better if it were cut out entirely (it doesn't work, even symbolically) and if they were to have sex, it should be because they care about each other / want to do so. The idea of "mana transfer" is grotty no matter how you work it, it has the connotations of a juvenile gag and has the subtext of "we have to have sex" which isn't good.

The way Rin and Shirou were interacting and Rins decision to sacrifice her crest (which I assume means she has sacrificed her position as a Mage?) was well written and developed their relationship nicely. Rin actually had quite a few sweet moments and the flashback to her memories was very well done.

I'm surprised that people are saying them having sex can't/wouldn't be done because they are minors though, they aren't *that* young are they? How old are they? (I've assumed them to be about 16/17 as they are high schoolers).

We've had characters that are supposed to be their ages have sex in regular TV shows in the UK before. As long as its tasteful it shouldn't be a problem. I thought Japan was more relaxed than us where this stuff is concerened.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Fizix

This was a good episode IMO. We needed a cool down before the final battle, especially after all the action beforehand. I think when its released as a DVD/Blu Ray or if people are watching it in blocks after its aired then it will feel very well placed.

The only criticism I have is about the "sex scene". I agree with others who have said that it would be better if it were cut out entirely (it doesn't work, even symbolically) and if they were to have sex, it should be because they care about each other / want to do so. The idea of "mana transfer" is grotty no matter how you work it, it has the connotations of a juvenile gag and has the subtext of "we have to have sex" which isn't good.

The way Rin and Shirou were interacting and Rins decision to sacrifice her crest (which I assume means she has sacrificed her position as a Mage?) was well written and developed their relationship nicely. Rin actually had quite a few sweet moments and the flashback to her memories was very well done.

I'm surprised that people are saying them having sex can't/wouldn't be done because they are minors though, they aren't *that* young are they? How old are they? (I've assumed them to be about 16/17 as they are high schoolers).

We've had characters that are supposed to be their ages have sex in regular TV shows in the UK before. As long as its tasteful it shouldn't be a problem. I thought Japan was more relaxed than us where this stuff is concerened.

They adapted it from the Realta Nua version of the VN which is an R 13+ version of the eroge. I read something about Sony forcing the hand of type-moon to remove even the slightest reference to sex and Nasu not really being a fan of the sex scenes himself.

The only censored scene in the VN that was left vague enough for there to be a "hidden" sex scene is the last one from Heaven's Feel.

[TwilightsCall]

Officially speaking, everyone is 18. Shirou's 18, Rin's 18, Illya's 18, Sakura, who is rather directly implied, though never outright stated, to be one year younger than Shirou and Rin, is 18. Otherwise, the original VN would technically break Japanese law or something...

Realistically speaking though, I don't think we have a precise statement of how old everyone is, but we know at least that Illya is 18, and we know she is slightly older than Shirou. Shirou is stated to be in Class 2-C in the extra material, and Year 2 of High School in Japan is 16 going on 17. Rin is in the same year as Shirou, and we know her birthday is February 3rd, so she actually turns 17 during the story.


Aside from those three, Sakura is a year younger than her sister, so she would be 15 going on 16. Her birthday is March 2nd, so she would turn 16 a couple weeks after the end of the story. I don't know how old King Arthur was supposed to be before he died, but from what I know of Medieval Europe, I suspect Saber would be in her 40s (of course, she stopped aging when she was around 15~, iirc)

[Fizix]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

They adapted it from the Realta Nua version of the VN which is an R 13+ version of the eroge. I read something about Sony forcing the hand of type-moon to remove even the slightest reference to sex and Nasu not really being a fan of the sex scenes himself.

The only censored scene in the VN that was left vague enough for there to be a "hidden" sex scene is the last one from Heaven's Feel.

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

Officially speaking, everyone is 18. Shirou's 18, Rin's 18, Illya's 18, Sakura, who is rather directly implied, though never outright stated, to be one year younger than Shirou and Rin, is 18. Otherwise, the original VN would technically break Japanese law or something...

Realistically speaking though, I don't think we have a precise statement of how old everyone is, but we know at least that Illya is 18, and we know she is slightly older than Shirou. Shirou is stated to be in Class 2-C in the extra material, and Year 2 of High School in Japan is 16 going on 17. Rin is in the same year as Shirou, and we know her birthday is February 3rd, so she actually turns 17 during the story.


Aside from those three, Sakura is a year younger than her sister, so she would be 15 going on 16. Her birthday is March 2nd, so she would turn 16 a couple weeks after the end of the story. I don't know how old King Arthur was supposed to be before he died, but from what I know of Medieval Europe, I suspect Saber would be in her 40s (of course, she stopped aging when she was around 15~, iirc)

Well this is what I don't really understand. Ufotable have two options, both can be done naturally and should be fine.

1. Do the crest thing without the sexual undertones.
2. Rin and Shirou have sex without the "mana transfer" thing making it tacky. Split the two elements so while they both happen, they are distinct from each other.

The former works just fine if they want it to be completely clean and the latter is fine as they are both above the age of consent in Japan and most Western countries. So provided they do it appropriately it shouldn't be a problem.

The crest thing with sexual undertones and the stupid "dolphins" which are obviously alluding to sperm are so much worse than the alternatives. It was really cringeworthy, but it didn't need to be.

[Levani]

I know this is unlikely but I hope they give Gilgamesh his armor in the final episodes, he's so much more badass and divine with that thing.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Fizix

Well this is what I don't really understand. Ufotable have two options, both can be done naturally and should be fine.

1. Do the crest thing without the sexual undertones.
2. Rin and Shirou have sex without the "mana transfer" thing making it tacky. Split the two elements so while they both happen, they are distinct from each other.

The former works just fine if they want it to be completely clean and the latter is fine as they are both above the age of consent in Japan and most Western countries. So provided they do it appropriately it shouldn't be a problem.

The crest thing with sexual undertones and the stupid "dolphins" which are obviously alluding to sperm are so much worse than the alternatives. It was really cringeworthy, but it didn't need to be.

Which makes me hope that somebody asks about this change to Nasu (and hopes that he answers this to calm down the storm this brought). The crest thing didn't really need the sexual undertones (it could've at least just left only Shirou being topless).

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Levani

So, now that Rin doesn't have this, how does it affect her power as a Mage?

Drops considerably, as well as her status beyond mere name recognition. Look how Waver was treated in Fate/Zero because of his lack of a family crest.

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

I don't know how old King Arthur was supposed to be before he died, but from what I know of Medieval Europe, I suspect Saber would be in her 40s (of course, she stopped aging when she was around 15~, iirc)

I calculated/estimated King Arthur to be around 56 at age of death. But supposedly, Nasu condensed Arthur's timeline so it's about 10% as long as it was in real lore, which is stupid as hell and doesn't make any sense, so I'm sticking with Saber being about 56 in a 14 year old's body.

[Levani]

Drops considerably, as well as her status beyond mere name recognition. Look how Waver was treated in Fate/Zero because of his lack of a family crest.

But I hear Waver has changed this mentality in the Mage's Association? Or at least trying to.

I calculated/estimated King Arthur to be around 56 at age of death. But supposedly, Nasu condensed Arthur's timeline so it's about 10% as long as it was in real lore, which is stupid as hell and doesn't make any sense, so I'm sticking with Saber being about 56 in a 14 year old's body.

It's pretty weird how a mentally grown woman falls for a teenager in the Fate Route. One of the reasons I dislike their romance, as well as the route itself xD

[Fizix]

Originally Posted by Levani

But I hear Waver has changed this mentality in the Mage's Association? Or at least trying to.



It's pretty weird how a mentally grown woman falls for a teenager in the Fate Route. One of the reasons I dislike their romance, as well as the route itself xD

What's weirder is that I thought she was a grown woman in her 20's, at the very least. You sure about that though? She looks, speaks and acts nothing like a 14 year old. Anime and ages are always odd though. I guess it's because they think teenagers in Japan can only relate to other teens in fiction.

[JustThisOne]

Originally Posted by Levani

I know this is unlikely but I hope they give Gilgamesh his armor in the final episodes, he's so much more badass and divine with that thing.

Ummm....You do realize that Gilgamesh not wearing his armor was one of the reasons Shirou beat him

[Levani]

Originally Posted by JustThisOne

Ummm....You do realize that Gilgamesh not wearing his armor was one of the reasons Shirou beat him

No, I didn't realize that...

[The Green One]

Dumb jokes about dolphins aside, in all seriousness I'd say it was a good episode. Shirou and Rin were able to have an intimate mood together without having to get too overtly sexual about it.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Levani

No, I didn't realize that...

It's said that if Gilgamesh had had his armor on, Shirou wouldn't have been able to cut off his arm, since Gil's armor is apparently uber tough and resistant.

So yeah, we won't be seeing the fully golden king in this route, which I agree is a shame and I already found disappointing in the VN, especially since it seems completely arbitrary that he puts it on in Fate but not in UBW.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Levani

But I hear Waver has changed this mentality in the Mage's Association? Or at least trying to.

He's trying, and changing small pockets of it, but he's been working on it for less than 10 years. At an organization that's likely around 1,000 years old (it existed in the middle ages).