F/SN UBW TV - Episode 19 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Shyni

Maybe he remembers the Guardian stuff but not the times he's summoned for the Grail war...? I mean, otherwise he should remember one of the other routes too, considering he's not bound to any particular timeline.

My theory is that Archer experienced UBW before Fate and HF. Because of the epiphanies he had in UBW, in the other routes he is sympathetic and even protective of Shirou.

Yeah, he exists "outside of time", so when he jumps between different universes and time periods working as a guardian, outside observers can't tell what the order of events was. But in Archer's frame of reference, there should still be a clear order.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Levani

If that's true, shouldn't Heroic Spirit Emiya know that this is the second time he's in 5th HGW?

We have EMIYA who sees EMIYA in his HGW, EMIYA later becomes Heroic Spirit - is summoned in EMIYA's timeline, but he wasn't trying to kill his past self, then does his guardian work and now he's summoned in Shirou's timeline.

Or am I looking at this wrong? I dunno, it just works better if we assume that in EMIYA's time-line the Archer class servant was Ajax.

In Fate and HF, Archer has better things to do than kill Shirou, so the timeline EMIYA comes from he may not had to have dealt with his former self. He might not even have known his identity.

Judging from Archer's past, the timeline he came from was rather similar to the Fate route.

Anyway, you are assuming the EMIYA that EMIYA saw was a different EMIYA when it's just the same guy every time.

[TwilightsCall]

With regards to EMIYA having memories of his appearances as a Counter Guardian:

Yes, it is a copy of him that appears. The real "Heroic Spirit EMIYA" never leaves the Throne of Heroes at any point after Shirou's death.

He has memories of what those copies do because he is able to access the knowledge his copies obtain from the Throne of Heroes. The VN describes it like reading a book. So while the true EMIYA won't experience the events that happened, he is aware of them.


As to EMIYA not appearing during the HGW in his timeline, I believe somewhere Nasu said that any timeline in which Shirou encounters EMIYA eliminates the possibility of him becoming Archer? I can't find the reference to it atm, so I could be mistaken though. At the very least we know the path leading to EMIYA isn't in Fate, UBW, or HF. So there's that I suppose.

What we do know is that EMIYA participated in the 5th Holy Grail War sometime in the past, whether as a Heroic Spirit or as Shirou, because Archer very clearly knew all about the details of Godhand.

EDIT because super ninja'd:

Yeah, in Fate, Archer died long before he had a chance to deal with Shirou, and in HF Shirou was so radically different from Archer's own past there was no point in actually killing him. I don't think we can claim any sort of order that he experienced them. Though it is interesting to realize that the EMIYA at the Throne of Heroes has memories of all three routes.

[Side-streetdog]

I little confuse at the opening scene but understood quite quickly.
I glad that this episode give us some more detail about EMIYA .
They never give us much information about him only small details despise he is one of main characters.

I was expected fight scene in this episode but Archer past aren't bad either.

About few counter guardians.
I believe there would be only few mages can reach "World",
and even more few among them that can make "World" a contract.
Lastly, even those few mages.
There should be only some condition for those to take insane contract to be Counter Guardian.
Someone like Emiya Shiro who so idealistic almost idiotic.
But even so, I think only EMIYA will make a contract not main time-line Emiya.

And oh yes

Spoiler for Not again!:

Oh my god! They kill Lancer!
You bastard!!

[Levani]

As to EMIYA not appearing during the HGW in his timeline, I believe somewhere Nasu said that any timeline in which Shirou encounters EMIYA eliminates the possibility of him becoming Archer? I can't find the reference to it atm, so I could be mistaken though. At the very least we know the path leading to EMIYA isn't in Fate, UBW, or HF. So there's that I suppose.

Ohh!! That's interesting... if you can find a reference, please link it to me.

Though it is interesting to realize that the EMIYA at the Throne of Heroes has memories of all three routes.

How about Saber and other servants?

Oh and, what about regular servants? Why does Alaya store them if she isn't going to use them for humanity's benefit like Counter-Guardians?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

What we do know is that EMIYA participated in the 5th Holy Grail War sometime in the past, whether as a Heroic Spirit or as Shirou, because Archer very clearly knew all about the details of Godhand.

It was as Shirou. If I recall, his actions indicate that he summoned Saber, and he states that he gave her back Avalon, as was done in the Fate route. However, he also says that he was "unable to save her", so unlike the Fate route and UBW, he wasn't able to convince her to give up her wish.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Well this did put some perspective into things. So Shirou's final wish was to stop a nuclear disaster...

OMG, thanks. I wondered that why they show Archer-Shirou in a nuclear plant. Now it makes sense.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Well this did put some perspective into things. So Shirou's final wish was to stop a nuclear disaster...

No it is NOT. That was the moment he made a contract (and "got the compensation now"). His death was obviously many, many years later. When he dies he looks like Archer, because he doesn't age and probably wouldn't change appearance as a Guardian. So his appearance had to change while he was still alive, and that is supposedly because of Projection over-use.

They seem to have changed the moment he made the contract though. His voice actor for the contract scene in the VN was Archer's while in the anime it is Shirou's.

[Lorhand]

Archer doesn't know how often he has participated in the 5th War as a Servant. He is stuck in a place where everything is already recorded. The records are there and he can access them, but he can't measure time anymore. The moment he ascended to the Throne of Heroes he learned that he became a "cleaner", who was summoned over and over again to kill and secure humanity's survival.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Dengar

... That's not true. He could have met himself in his own timeline just the same.

And don't tell me that "EMIYA Archer couldn't possibly have existed at that time" stuff. This very episode has established that time is meaningless.

I know it's possible he could've been summoned into his own timeline, thank you very much. I just also believe that concept to be utter fucking bullshit and think it'd make far more sense that EMIYA wasn't summoned as Archer in EMIYA's own originating timeline/universe.

[Haak]

Didn't Nasu already establish that Archer EMIYA is the future of Fate Route Shirou?

[GDB]

No, just that the Fate route's Shirou is the closest of the three routes to how Archer's plays out. But he specifically said none of the Shirous we've seen become Archer.

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Haak

Didn't Nasu already establish that Archer EMIYA is the future of Fate Route Shirou?

Or from a nonexistent Ilya route.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Levani

And had Ajax as Archer, which is how Shirou witnessed Rho Aias~

That's my headcanon anyway xD

As much as I generally loathe the "first time around" time travel trope because people so often use it as the basis for their "this time travel is wrong" or "I hate time travel" arguments, I like this idea. Ajax is one of those heroes who could qualify as multiple Servants, even though it was his brother Teucer (protected by Ajax with Rho Aias), who was better known as an archer.

Speaking of Teucer, he's another option. He was disowned after his brother's suicide, and exiled from his home kingdom, but reportedly never let that get him down, which would have made him a nice contrast to the nihilistic EMIYA.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I know it's possible he could've been summoned into his own timeline, thank you very much. I just also believe that concept to be utter fucking bullshit and think it'd make far more sense that EMIYA wasn't summoned as Archer in EMIYA's own originating timeline/universe.

Care to elaborate? Or do you have anything other than "It's bullshit" and "it doesn't make sense"?

Because I can think of a very important reason why it's far more likely for Archer in his own timeline to be the very same:

Rin was destined to summon Archer due to the fact that he had the pendant and Rin had used no catalyst. Something like that doesn't just randomly change.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Care to elaborate? Or do you have anything other than "It's bullshit" and "it doesn't make sense"?

Because I can think of a very important reason why it's far more likely for Archer in his own timeline to be the very same:

Rin was destined to summon Archer due to the fact that he had the pendant and Rin had used no catalyst. Something like that doesn't just randomly change.

If Archer was summoned into his own timeline or not is not relevent, what matters is if and for how long ArcherShirou met Archer. For all we know Archer could have been completely killed off by Saber instead of only critically wounded (Fate&HF) or saved by Shirou's Command Spell (UBW) in ArcherShirou's timeline.

[Geburah]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Well next week is titled "Unlimited Blade Works"... and the preview pics on

http://www.fate-sn.com/story/21.html

actually show the RM as well... I wonder how they will explain that Archer has enough prana to use it again... or better said if they will attempt to explain it in the first place.

Maybe is Saber battle of Camlann as background

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Geburah

Maybe is Saber battle of Camlann as background

Nope, there are Archer!UBW gears as well.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

If Archer was summoned into his own timeline or not is not relevent, what matters is if and for how long ArcherShirou met Archer. For all we know Archer could have been completely killed off by Saber instead of only critically wounded (Fate&HF) or saved by Shirou's Command Spell (UBW) in ArcherShirou's timeline.

Oh I know, it's part of my original point that there's zero reason to believe that somehow in EMIYAs own timeline there magically was a different Archer for no reason.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Oh I know, it's part of my original point that there's zero reason to believe that somehow in EMIYAs own timeline there magically was a different Archer for no reason.

Well there is still the "Rin summons a 2nd Gilgamesh" possibility.