F/SN UBW TV - Episode 8 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Kuzuki being able to kill Rider head-on makes sense, though, because he's able to fight Saber and come out on top in a direct fight--in the VN, she was literally a single hit away from death when the battle between them ended. Word of God calls him a Saber-class opponent, like Assassin. While many a person would be utterly outclassed facing a Servant, Kuzuki is not one of them.

As for the Saber/Caster confrontation this episode... by using Rider's appearance, Caster keeps Saber and her Master from thinking that there's other forces at play. She likely revealed herself at the end because Kuzuki had already killed Rider by then, so there was no need to hide her involvement anymore.

As for Sakura, well... in the episode we saw Rin and Shirou resisting the Blood Fort's effects by generating mana, right? Well, I don't see how Zouken's worms couldn't protect her the same manner. As for Rider obeying Shinji, isn't that spellbook of his acting like a Command Seal, so she can't really disobey him while he has it?

And if those tumblr kids can't handle Rider's twisted head, I can imagine the shitstorm that'd happen if ufotable had been really faithful and had the victims horribly disfigured by the Blood Fort like in the VN.

From what I've been hearing and reading, Kazuki was supposed to be some professional assassin wasn't he? If he had some buffs from Caster (who's supposed to be good at using Age of God magic), then I guess it's possible.

As for the Sakura bit, wouldn't Blood Fort's effect affect the worms?

[R.LocK]

Originally Posted by GDB

He's no Ichika, at least.

Sorry, it can't be used for reference.

[Tormenk]

I was thinking Rider died of an explosive heart attack until I read the thread. Then I remember Kuzuki, who's had like two scenes thus far, was responsible. So magic is able to buff him to the level of killing servants?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Tormenk

I was thinking Rider died of an explosive heart attack until I read the thread. Then I remember Kuzuki, who's had like two scenes thus far, was responsible. So magic is able to buff him to the level of killing servants?

Yes, but only really the first time they fight. After that, they can anticipate his movements and take preventative measures. However, his tricky moves amplified by Caster are enough to kill Servants.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Wah wah they changed it now it sucks.

So it begins....

People are forgetting the fact that Ufo gets permission from Nasu for all the changes...

And btw, Kuzuki could literally stomp Saber in their first encounter, there is no reason he couldn't do the same thing with Rider, who is a much weaker Servant under Shinji.

[AntonKutovoi]

You know, now when I'm thinking of it, Nasuverse have way too many people, who can deal with servants, who supposed to be unstoppable killing machines.

[Rising Dragon]

... there's not that many. Shirou needed extenuating circumstances in the form of coming across a Heroic Spirit version of himself. Rin was only able to have an advantage over Caster because she knew martial arts and Caster didn't. Kuzuki had the skill, but still needed buffs from another Servant to fight on even footing. Bazett is only able to do so because she has a Noble Phantasm herself.

'bout the only human in the Fate/stay night/Tsukihime 'verse capable of defeating a Servant on their own without extenuating circumstances would be Aoko.

[Jerseykid]

I don't have any problem with Rider getting stomped but it would have been nice to actuallly get to know these beings before they get stomped

[Rising Dragon]

That's what Heaven's Feel is for.

[Nayrael]

Originally Posted by Jerseykid

I don't have any problem with Rider getting stomped but it would have been nice to actuallly get to know these beings before they get stomped

FSN is a story consisting of multiple routes. In these cases, you do not give all characters the full treatment in a single route.

[AntonKutovoi]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

... there's not that many. Shirou needed extenuating circumstances in the form of coming across a Heroic Spirit version of himself. Rin was only able to have an advantage over Caster because she knew martial arts and Caster didn't. Kuzuki had the skill, but still needed buffs from another Servant to fight on even footing. Bazett is only able to do so because she has a Noble Phantasm herself.

'bout the only human in the Fate/stay night/Tsukihime 'verse capable of defeating a Servant on their own without extenuating circumstances would be Aoko.

The fact that Shiro needed "special circumstances" doesn't change the fact that he killed the most powerful servant possible in one-on-one duel. Then there's also Kirei. He maybe not exactly human anymore, but he still kicked a crap out of Assassin. Kuzukui killed one servant and kicked the ass of the other one. Yes, he was buffed, but still.
Then, there's also Ryogi, Aoko and a number of non-humans, like 27 ancestors and Kouma. Oh, and Ciel, who can fight against them as well (even if that is defencive battle). I think it's more than enough characters.
Oh, and if we'll go into Fate/Extra territory there's also Miss Hellish Vagina.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Levani

No, DEEN's version was garbage. They have fucked up all of their adaptations, not just FSN. They fucked up Tsukihime, fucked up Higurashi, fucked up Umineko, turning them into shit stories when they're one of the best VNs out there.

What???

[Rising Dragon]

Shirou and EMIYA killing Gilgamesh isn't as special as you'd think it is. Their skillset is practically tailor made to killing Gilgamesh--it wouldn't be nearly as effective against any other Servant. Gilgamesh is not that skilled in hand to hand combat like Saber and Archer are, so it's not that surprising that Shirou could overwhelm him in a sword duel.

Ryougi isn't in the same universe as the Holy Grail War, so I didn't include her. True Ancestors and Dead Apostle Ancestors also weren't included in my statement because they aren't human and are already beyond the vast majority of humans. And even then, the most powerful of the True Ancestors winning is highly circumstantial.

[AntonKutovoi]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Ryougi isn't in the same universe as the Holy Grail War, so I didn't include her.

Nah, she is still there. Events still happened, but in a different time that is listed in KnK novels. The only difference between KnK and Fate/Tsuki universes are dates.

[Rev Okkin]

Originally Posted by Kimiko Khan

could you perhaps elaborate on that? I fail to see how that conclusion could be made

Basically, Rin was set up to be a capable mage, she isn't as fazed when seeing the "coma incidents" that are caused by Caster but now, Rin's just trembling at the sight of students under the Bloodfort which seems to be lovingly coincided when Shirou becomes "competent" and taking the spotlight in badassry while Rin is shaken up behind him.

Originally Posted by AntonKutovoi

The fact that Shiro needed "special circumstances" doesn't change the fact that he killed the most powerful servant possible in one-on-one duel. Then there's also Kirei. He maybe not exactly human anymore, but he still kicked a crap out of Assassin. Kuzukui killed one servant and kicked the ass of the other one. Yes, he was buffed, but still.
Then, there's also Ryogi, Aoko and a number of non-humans, like 27 ancestors and Kouma. Oh, and Ciel, who can fight against them as well (even if that is defencive battle). I think it's more than enough characters.
Oh, and if we'll go into Fate/Extra territory there's also Miss Hellish Vagina.

The thing about Nasuverse battles is that it's situational battles rather than "Hey, my strength rank is 5 times yours, so I wreck you in any state just because of that" "Special circumstances" would always be in play. The support, the battle plan, the mindsets, everything is taken to account.
And yeah, you listed basically the ones with real special circumstances. And HS are nerfed when summoned under the classes of the HGW. Basically, special circumstance.

Originally Posted by HtwoN

People are forgetting the fact that Ufo gets permission from Nasu for all the changes...

And also the fact that Deen got permission from Nasu as well. (Actually, I don't know, can anyone confirm?)

And lastly, ANN review claims that Shinji not being killed by Kuzuki is a plot hole. Team Caster is ruthless, so why let go of a Master if Caster herself is well versed with Command Seals due to her doing something to her Master and summoning herself a Servant? Discuss.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by AntonKutovoi

Nah, she is still there. Events still happened, but in a different time that is listed in KnK novels. The only difference between KnK and Fate/Tsuki universes are dates.

No, there's some stupid Nasu logic that has KnK and Tsukihime in different realities (with Fate/ connected to Tsukihime) because only one pair of Mystic Eyes can exist in the world, and there's a set in both of those series so they're in different realities.

Though theoretically she could still exist, just not as the character we know and as such not one capable of fighting Servants.

[AntonKutovoi]

Originally Posted by GDB

No, there's some stupid Nasu logic that has KnK and Tsukihime in different realities (with Fate/ connected to Tsukihime) because only one pair of Mystic Eyes can exist in the world, and there's a set in both of those series so they're in different realities.

Though theoretically she could still exist, just not as the character we know and as such not one capable of fighting Servants.

Is it? I thought he almost openly said "I'm too bored to fix all those problems with timelines, so I'll just put them into the different universes". Guess it's my imagination + the fact that Touko and Mikiya appears in Fate franchise (OK, in Mikiya's case it probably was Nasu's joke).

[Rising Dragon]

It's not that there can only be one set of those particular Mystic Eyes, the actual statement is that two pairs of Mystic Eyes of Death Perception existing at the same time is so unlikely as to effectively be impossible.

Having looked up Ryougi in her capabilities against Servants, she's stated to be on the same level as Ciel. Ciel's already stated to be able to go up against Servants only in a defensive battle, so take that as you will.

Looking up statements on the 27 Ancestors, even word of god says that for the most part, Servants would have a slight advantage. Saber in particular would be extremely tough for them to defeat, because of her possession of Excalibur gives her an advantage against opponents who overwhelm with material quantity and alienness. There are some who'd be able to tank Excalibur, but those are stated to only just have absurd levels of HP... and that those same opponents would have a hard time against Lancer.

[Rev Okkin]

So this is what Saber meant of Shirou copying Archer...

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by Rev Okkin

So this is what Saber meant of Shirou copying Archer...

Archer's left hand. Shirou's stab remind me really of Archer's stab at Assassin previous ep.