Log Horizon - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Tales

Question: Is it right for a nobleman (Lord Marves) to sniff up the princess hair (Lenessia)?

No, its a sign of disrespect and Marves is humiliating her or trying to get a reaction from her. If Reinessia reacts then it will reflect on her standing as an ambassador of Eastal which is why Reinessia is just trying to take it all in stride and let him do whatever he wants but the villain in glasses is arrive to deal with the treat

[Netto Azure]

This is why the Western conception of personal space is so appealing. Having to endure such humiliation for the sake of diplomatic niceties and class reverence really can be grating in today's society.

[The Green One]

Originally Posted by Tales

Question: Is it right for a nobleman (Lord Marves) to sniff up the princess hair (Lenessia)?

He's being deliberately insulting to try to provoke the princess and/or the adventurers to cause a scene. Basically trying to undermine the cities leadership by trying to show them as incompetent to drive a wedge between them and the Eastel League so that the west can make inroads on Akihabara and try to secure contracts and technology.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by The Green One

He's being deliberately insulting to try to provoke the princess and/or the adventurers to cause a scene. Basically trying to undermine the cities leadership by trying to show them as incompetent to drive a wedge between them and the Eastel League so that the west can make inroads on Akihabara and try to secure contracts and technology.

Which is akin to slamming a gigantic sleeping dragon with a sledgehammer, in hopes some scales fall down.
Sure, it might work, or you might get eaten.

Let's remember, Eastal and Westelande are neighboring areas, and continued existence of Eastal (which were part of a unified empire once) as an independent entity means that Westelande lacks the means of taking control of it.

And Akiba is, at least as powerful as Eastal when it comes to military might (conservative estimate at best, Black Sword Knights or D.D.D could probably lay waste to all of Eastal on their own).

A case of Bullying A Dragon

[Marcus H.]

Which is akin to slamming a gigantic sleeping dragon with a sledgehammer, in hopes some scales fall down.

That's the thing: Marves doesn't know that the Round Table is a dragon, not a lizard make a pet out of.

[Ickarium]

Marves is basically making the same mistake Eastal did, just much, /much/ moreso. He is thinking of the Council as non-nobles and people to be manipulated. After all, they aren't nobles, so what can they do? They're stupid. Think about how shocked Reynessia was about how smart the adventurers were, and she has an open mind. Marves doesn't. He's pretty stereotypically the arrogant, evil noble.

He's screwed.

[Benigmatica]

Well, I agree with Ickarium... Oh wait, everyone is agree that Lord Marves is doomed to fail in a spectacular finish by the Villian-in-glasses.

Still, dealing with Lord Marves isn't enough to solve what's happening in the Westlande region, especially in Minami. Maybe he was controlled there, or just fed up and decided to screw Akihabara and the Eastal region.

[J4n1]

The thing is though, that unless Marvin here is an utterly insane, ignorant or idiotic, he would be have to know that adventurers are immortal demigods when compared to landers, at least on intellectual level.
At which point one would assume he would have some level of, self preservation, while in their territory, which he has not been showing.

[Irisiel]

Originally Posted by J4n1

The thing is though, that unless Marvin here is an utterly insane, ignorant or idiotic, he would be have to know that adventurers are immortal demigods when compared to landers, at least on intellectual level.
At which point one would assume he would have some level of, self preservation, while in their territory, which he has not been showing.

If ET world is truly based on a feudal/medieval society, then no matter how many or powerful adventurers are, they aren't nobles, and therefore cannot act.

Basically, in this situation, with him creeping on Lenessia, I can see two possible conclusions available in the society of ET:

Chivalry Romance Conclusion [aka the Ideal that troubadours wrote songs about]: Father, Guardian, Brother, Fiance, Husband or Champion shows up and challenges Marves to a duel (which can sub Marves for a champion of his choice, and if Lenessia isn't being defended by her champion, her relative can pick one as well) for the insult.

If Marves win, he's seen as being in the right but can "magnanimously" apologize for the ruckus, and demand some form of compensation.

If Marves loses, Westelande nobility will make him out as innocent and demand reparation (can come in various forms, from money to political hostages to contracts and servitude), and/or declare a war on Eastal (they wont see Akiba as a separate entity, since, again, there are no Akiba nobles and therefore Akiba is not sovereign/real).

Or it could go the other Conclusion (aka, what mostly happened back in those days): Everyone looks the other way. Marves creeps some more on Lenessia. Everyone manages to deal with the minor paperwork mishaps. Keep their heads down as they're called incompetent. Gets through Libra Festival and they're home-free.

Basically; Adventurers are not nobles, therefore not worthy of consideration as fully human beings and the ability to react against nobles to a feudal noble. If Lenessia had her father or grandfather around, Marves would act more appropriate because in his eyes, nobles have more power and are more troublesome to provoke than peasant-adventurers.

Hence, Marves isn't suicidal or battling with his sense of self-preservation. To him, he's as safe as ever (y'know, barring political assassinations and some nephew wanting to inherit a title early and likes). To him this is logical and rational and any considerations of the adventurers are foolishly quaint, at best.

As an added note, this is probably why Eastal thought they were bestowing a boon of freedom and power, and not restraints and trouble, to the Round Table when they were about to title them.

[ACDNeo]

Originally Posted by Nvis

Soujirou....like a BOSS.

Those Marves bodyguards think they can beat everyone in the banquet hall? Hah!

One two shield tank
One Kanagi
One Samurai/parry tank

They only need resist until royal guards appear, 1/2 seg

PD.
Marvestroll is trolling.
are u mad?

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

If ET world is truly based on a feudal/medieval society, then no matter how many or powerful adventurers are, they aren't nobles, and therefore cannot act.

Basically, in this situation, with him creeping on Lenessia, I can see two possible conclusions available in the society of ET:

Chivalry Romance Conclusion [aka the Ideal that troubadours wrote songs about]: Father, Guardian, Brother, Fiance, Husband or Champion shows up and challenges Marves to a duel (which can sub Marves for a champion of his choice, and if Lenessia isn't being defended by her champion, her relative can pick one as well) for the insult.

If Marves win, he's seen as being in the right but can "magnanimously" apologize for the ruckus, and demand some form of compensation.

If Marves loses, Westelande nobility will make him out as innocent and demand reparation (can come in various forms, from money to political hostages to contracts and servitude), and/or declare a war on Eastal (they wont see Akiba as a separate entity, since, again, there are no Akiba nobles and therefore Akiba is not sovereign/real).

Or it could go the other Conclusion (aka, what mostly happened back in those days): Everyone looks the other way. Marves creeps some more on Lenessia. Everyone manages to deal with the minor paperwork mishaps. Keep their heads down as they're called incompetent. Gets through Libra Festival and they're home-free.

Basically; Adventurers are not nobles, therefore not worthy of consideration as fully human beings and the ability to react against nobles to a feudal noble. If Lenessia had her father or grandfather around, Marves would act more appropriate because in his eyes, nobles have more power and are more troublesome to provoke than peasant-adventurers.

Hence, Marves isn't suicidal or battling with his sense of self-preservation. To him, he's as safe as ever (y'know, barring political assassinations and some nephew wanti
2000
ng to inherit a title early and likes). To him this is logical and rational and any considerations of the adventurers are foolishly quaint, at best.

As an added note, this is probably why Eastal thought they were bestowing a boon of freedom and power, and not restraints and trouble, to the Round Table when they were about to title them.

He IS being utterly foolish here, because unlike a real-world situation where nobles command powerful army that will eventually take down even the strongest and most skilled of fighters in real life (remember, no immortals, magic, or superhumans):

1) Adventurers are immortal whereas Landers are not. He is a Lander noble (unless someone managed to grant him the same subclass as Rudy received from Shiroe).

2) The only non-Adventurer force capable of matching Adventurers in power is mysteriously gone.

3) The majority of the so called army that they have seem to average at about lvl 30, maybe some royal guards going up to 50-ish. From looking at Rudy's progress, we know that Landers level up at an extremely slow pace. Even at a hardcore pace guided by adventurers, they will not be able to train up their troops to match against high leveled adventurers anytime soon. Again, this doesn't even take into account permanent death or being ambushed during training, etc.

Against a few full guilds of lvl 70-90s (DDD for example), his poor Adventurer bodyguards (which is supposedly non-canon as far as the novels go) or any other Lander Army he may sneak in simply do not stand a chance. Even the Eastal nobles know that their armies are no match against high-leveled adventurers. Marvin(?) would have to be willfully ignorant to not know these facts.

The situation is very much a reverse of "back in the day" (medieval times). Imagine back in medieval times if there were godly beings capable of leveling entire cities on their own, who would keep coming back no matter how much you kill them. Do you seriously believe that nobles back then would keep disregarding their power just because they are not nobles? Especially if they see other kingdoms that have been utterly crushed/controlled by them? (Susukino)

Remember, in their world, Adventurers have always been "immortal beings", its just that due to the most recent world event, they have now become "sentient".

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

This is why the Western conception of personal space is so appealing. Having to endure such humiliation for the sake of diplomatic niceties and class reverence really can be grating in today's society.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm quite certain both cultures were and somewhat still have the same standards for personal space.

[Irisiel]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

The situation is very much a reverse of "back in the day" (medieval times). Imagine back in medieval times if there were godly beings capable of leveling entire cities on their own, who would keep coming back no matter how much you kill them. Do you seriously believe that nobles back then would keep disregarding their power just because they are not nobles? Especially if they see other kingdoms that have been utterly crushed/controlled by them? (Susukino)

Non-nobility have always been more numerous, and many times when they've attacked the ruling classes in large groups they've either won (French Revolution style), or done enough damage to make it to legend (Boudicca vs. Roman Empire is a good example, keep in mind that even though Boudicca was acknowledged as dangerous, her actual threat was minimized as being of lesser status than the Romans). Just as how adventurers are a stronger force by virtue of level and immortality, peasants could sack seats of power by being a huge number.

This is why the mentality I described is so ingrained. If the brainwash is so thorough that even most nobles believe it, peasants should as well. Curtailing education is another way to stop peasants from ever getting the idea that they deserve better (the "don't go and give them any ideas" school of thought). After enough generations of this, it's a system that self-perpetuates itself. And lets not even go into the whole god-given/religious right to rule thing... (do the Landers have some sort of religion?)

Plus, as you said, adventurers are only recently acknowledged as sentient beings. Which is why Akiba is being tested right now, but being tested is very different from passing the test, or being expected to pass the test (most traditional nobles would probably think this is all a formality, nobles with their eyes opened might see an opportunity, and nobles who have completely woken up will see a possible threat).

Well, we know that Marves' provoking the adventurers is stupid on a huge level (and it could be argued that Marves and Lenessia have no idea just how much Marves is provoking the adventurers' modern sensibilities when it comes to creeping on young women). The question is if Marves thinks outside of the nobility/traditional box (and thus have a proper plan), or if he thinks he can manipulate the adventurers by using a medieval social structure.

[ACDNeo]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

He IS being utterly foolish here, because unlike a real-world situation where nobles command powerful army that will eventually take down even the strongest and most skilled of fighters in real life (remember, no immortals, magic, or superhumans):

1) Adventurers are immortal whereas Landers are not. He is a Lander noble (unless someone managed to grant him the same subclass as Rudy received from Shiroe).

2) The only non-Adventurer force capable of matching Adventurers in power is mysteriously gone.

3) The majority of the so called army that they have seem to average at about lvl 30, maybe some royal guards going up to 50-ish. From looking at Rudy's progress, we know that Landers level up at an extremely slow pace. Even at a hardcore pace guided by adventurers, they will not be able to train up their troops to match against high leveled adventurers anytime soon. Again, this doesn't even take into account permanent death or being ambushed during training, etc.

Against a few full guilds of lvl 70-90s (DDD for example), his poor Adventurer bodyguards (which is supposedly non-canon as far as the novels go) or any other Lander Army he may sneak in simply do not stand a chance. Even the Eastal nobles know that their armies are no match against high-leveled adventurers. Marvin(?) would have to be willfully ignorant to not know these facts.

The situation is very much a reverse of "back in the day" (medieval times). Imagine back in medieval times if there were godly beings capable of leveling entire cities on their own, who would keep coming back no matter how much you kill them. Do you seriously believe that nobles back then would keep disregarding their power just because they are not nobles? Especially if they see other kingdoms that have been utterly crushed/controlled by them? (Susukino)

Remember, in their world, Adventurers have always been "immortal beings", its just that due to the most recent world event, they have now become "sentient".

1.-for their goals, getting Marves killed is good aswell
2.-The royal guards will appear if you mess things in a non-pvp zone
3.-They came of the west, Minami is there, anyway your DDD guild will be one shoted, see Akatsuki-Nogutsu in Ep 23, those guards can teleport, that's why Shiroe can walk safely in susukino streets(being surrounded).

[J4n1]

Boudicca's low threat level had shit all to do with her status, and all to do with numbers (romans had them).

And the point here is, that Marvin can die, and is in a city full of people capable of killing him with no sweat.
Even if they are merely thought of as Mercenaries, they are still immortal mercenaries with near godlike power.
And the very fact that Marvin is here, would require him, assuming he is not downright moronic, to have done some background studies (remember those spies? let's assume Westelande has some as well), leading him to understand that, at least, they are on the level of simple mercenaries (or, more likely, utter unknown), meaning that they are capable of turning on him if he pisses them of.

Which is not to say that Marvin is unrealistic character, that is not what i am saying, i am saying that Marvin is, a complete and utter MORON.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by ACDNeo

1.-for their goals, getting Marves killed is good aswell
2.-The royal guards will appear if you mess things in a non-pvp zone
3.-They came of the west, Minami is there, anyway your DDD guild will be one shoted, see Akatsuki-Nogutsu in Ep 23, those guards can teleport, that's why Shiroe can walk safely in susukino streets(being surrounded).

1. For Marvin, getting killed is not good as well.
2. True, Marvin would still be dead though (and he can be forcefully dragged outside the guardian zone, or Raynesia can turn pvp on), adventurer would just get some light exercise as he or she walks back from the Cathedral.
3. Does not help Marvin, he is not in Minami.

[Tales]

Ahh... I see, so Marves is doing this in order to humiliate Eastal or Round Table.

He is not a perverted noble (but I'm sure those people exist in ET) for sniffing Lenessia hair but is simply treating Lenessia/Eastal as inferiors. Right?

I assuming Lord Marves has diplomatic immunity so none of the adventurer are attacking him. So what's the point of bringing 4 adventurers to protect him when they are entering a town full of adventurers?

[Marcus H.]

If Marves win, he's seen as being in the right but can "magnanimously" apologize for the ruckus, and demand some form of compensation.

If Marves loses, Westelande nobility will make him out as innocent and demand reparation (can come in various forms, from money to political hostages to contracts and servitude), and/or declare a war on Eastal (they wont see Akiba as a separate entity, since, again, there are no Akiba nobles and therefore Akiba is not sovereign/real).

This reminds me of that one scene in Horizon...

Spoiler for Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon season 1:

when Nate, herself a knight, has to fight her classmates to represent the nobility who refuses to take a positive stand in Toori's "fight against the world". If she wins, Toori loses the noblemen for good, and if she loses, the reputation of the knights will be undermined, creating another problem. Toori ends up losing by pitting a helpless girl against Nate, but it also triggers Nate's "gentlemanly" spirit by catching the poor girl as she trips. Despite the loss, Nate's rep as a knight remained intact and she decides to join Toori's cause anyway.

[ACDNeo]

Originally Posted by J4n1

1. For Marvin, getting killed is not good as well.
2. True, Marvin would still be dead though (and he can be forcefully dragged outside the guardian zone, or Raynesia can turn pvp on), adventurer would just get some light exercise as he or she walks back from the Cathedral.
3. Does not help Marvin, he is not in Minami.

1.-He's just a pawn
2.-"Raynesia can turn pvp on""Marvin, getting killed"
everyone will lose in many ways if this happens.
-Lossing her position as ambassador, and she will be punished as a Noble
-Eastal Nobles will blame Crowen family
-Round table will lose a lot points for put Raynesia in danger
-Akiba and Eastal will distrust Roundtable
3.-I mean the aftermath

West-Minami VS weakened Akiba-Eastal

Eastal destroyed without the adventures aid and Akiba left in anarchy or conquered without a fight

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by ACDNeo

1.-He's just a pawn
2.-"Raynesia can turn pvp on""Marvin, getting killed"
everyone will lose in many ways if this happens.
-Lossing her position as ambassador, and she will be punished as a Noble
-Eastal Nobles will blame Crowen family
-Round table will lose a lot points for put Raynesia in danger
-Akiba and Eastal will distrust Roundtable
3.-I mean the aftermath

West-Minami VS weakened Akiba-Eastal

Eastal destroyed without the adventures aid and Akiba left in anarchy or conquered without a fight

1. So? He is still a sentient being, he has his own wants and interests, whatever those are.
2. Again, so? turning pvp on is, at best, a minor factoid in my point, that Marvin could still get killed easily, and any adventurer killing him would have little to no consequences for them.
Raynesia is "just a girl", she isn't seen as important, or even capable of competence, by the lander nobility, if Marvin was to die, she would not be held responsible except in the most superficial way.
And either way, Marvin would still be dead.
3. Once more, so? Marvin would still be dead.

Akiba has half the adventurers in the server, rest are split between other player cities. Akiba also has 4 top combat guilds in the server (D.D.D, Black Sword Knights, West Wind Brigade, Honesty).
In a defensive war, Akiba would almost certainly win, in an offensive War, Akiba would, at minimum, survive. Westelande, in either case, would be devastated.

I'm not saying that killing Marvin would be a good thing, or lack consequences.
What i am saying that killing Marvin would be easy, and require just 1 peeved of adventurer, therefore Marvin, through his actions and arrogance, shows himself to be an idiot.