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View Poll Results: Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 24 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 11 | 22.45% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 20 | 40.82% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 13 | 26.53% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 3 | 6.12% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 1 | 2.04% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 1 | 2.04% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll |
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2013-03-17, 11:37 | Link #61 |
Guess what time it is?
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Age: 38
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I actually see a bit of a parallel between Kiroumaru's stated plans for WMDs and where he, Saki and Satorou find themselves right now. Kiroumaru claims (and we have little reason to disbelieve him now) that he was trying to create a MAD scenario between his tribe and the humans to prevent the Giant Hornets from ever being wiped out. The humans would still retain all of the power, since there's still no other way for bakenezumi to fight them, but the psychobuster would give the humans pause if they ever wanted to actually wipe out his tribe, because then Kiroumaru would have nothing to lose. As things currently stand, the Giant Hornets' very existence depends on the whims of a fickle and fearful tribe of mortal gods. The assurance of a future for the clan would probably be worth the lives of a great many scouts.
Interestingly enough, this is exactly the situation they find themselves in now: Yakomaru has them beaten. He holds all of the cards (or so he thinks), but he doesn't dare to actually finish them off because if he did, they would bring down the caves and kill him too. |
2013-03-17, 11:38 | Link #62 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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Kiroumaru and Yakomaru DO have some pretty strong similarities, shown from this reveal. They're both willing to be dishonest and show loyalty to the humans while plotting in secret. The big difference between them is that Kiroumaru seems to value a peaceful status quo and Yakomaru is looking to carve out an empire of his own. Even then, we're giving Kiroumaru the benefit of the doubt in saying this - we don't know what his course of action would be if he had actually found WMDs when visiting.
The main differences lie in their personalities, I think. Yakomaru doesn't care for giving an air of chivalry and will do whatever it takes. Kiromaru does value these traits, but as a leader his loyalty was to his people above his loyalty to humanity, so he felt it was more 'noble,' if you will, to plot in secret. In both situations, I think humanity was asking for trouble with the way they lord over the rats. Yakomaru seems to be a Julius Ceasar of sorts; taking advantage of the hostile climate to propel himself into a position of prominence, but there's no denying that if you were in either colony, the humans must have seemed to be a huge threat to your well-being. |
2013-03-17, 11:41 | Link #63 | |
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2013-03-17, 11:45 | Link #64 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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Are you telling me every character in the series is the same just because they are capable of lying for their own self-interest? His soldiers put their own lives on the line to protect Kiroumaru in the same way Inui died to protect Saki. Unless you are telling me Saki doesn't care about others either, you are wrong. |
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2013-03-17, 11:45 | Link #65 | ||
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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The line between fantasy and science-fiction in most anime sci-fi always seems weak to me once you move beyond space operas. I had the same reaction to Noein despite its appeal to the "many-worlds" hypothesis of quantum theory.
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2013-03-17, 11:50 | Link #66 | |
Guess what time it is?
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Age: 38
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2013-03-17, 12:01 | Link #67 | |
Kana Hanazawa ♥
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 37
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It's interesting to note Inui used the oil and fire from his lamp to scare off the weird creatures lurking in the caves two weeks ago. Couldn't he just lit them on fire with his mind?
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2013-03-17, 12:05 | Link #68 | |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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2013-03-17, 12:17 | Link #69 | |||||
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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And he told them when technically speaking if they get out of this situation, in the future he might still attack the humans if it comes to that. Quote:
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I don't see how you can say only Yakomaru's had necessity on his side. Kiroumaru was looking for the weapons in case his tribe was in danger. I don't see how that is not a necessity. Yakomaru's reasoning might be a necessity as well but again he tried to butter it up to make what he did look more admirable than it was. Quote:
No to me that would actually make him exactly the same as Yakomaru just that they are fighting on different sides. This episode showed why Yakomaru and Kiroumaru are completely different in personality. Quote:
Kiroumaru might have called the humans gods, might have shown them respect, but he never outright lied to them. Sure he was loyal to the humans as long as it was good for his tribe but he didn't purposely mislead them either. Kiroumaru's tribe was first to him that is all.
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2013-03-17, 12:45 | Link #71 | |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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As for the insect breeding scheme; I believe they are based on naked mole rats, which actually do breed that way. They're the only known mammals with this insect-like system... really fascinating creatures. (Also, regarding Kiroumaru's genitalia, there are many mammals that have reproductive organs retracted into the body until times of 'use...' humans are actually pretty unique in this regard.) I would classify SSY as fantasy, most certainly. There's really nothing sci-fi about it, right from the beginning when people suddenly had these powers we were delving completely into fantasy territory... They just use the backdrop of the 'real world' having happened in the past, which is similar to many sci-fi stories. |
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2013-03-17, 13:02 | Link #73 | ||
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2013-03-17, 13:15 | Link #74 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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I also want to add I don't blindly hate Yakomaru. I think he is a fantastic character but I see him as villain and I don't agree with the defense of his character.
Now when I say he is a villain I don't think he is your mustache twirling one dimensional type. I do see him as more complex than that. I never bought that he was a "hero" to his people but I always thought he was intelligent and highly capable antagonist. As for Kiroumaru he might have been the antagonist in another situation but his character type would still have made him an honorable one in my opinion.
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2013-03-17, 14:46 | Link #75 | ||||||||||
DRRR!!
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2013-03-17, 15:39 | Link #76 | ||
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Yakomaru didn't just act loyal he kowtowed and denied he was anything but. Has Kiroumaru ever outright said I would never turn against the humans because I can't recall that? Kiroumaru speaks matter of factly, Yakomaru manipulates.
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2013-03-17, 16:08 | Link #77 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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I don't think it's actually meant to be anything more than "magic" to begin with. From my impressions, since their cantus is a result of them extending their unconscious and concious thoughts, I've always assumed they were just reality warpers.
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2013-03-17, 16:37 | Link #78 | |||
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So yes, technically it may be more fantasy than hard sci-fi, but it's not treated as ~magic!~ (Also, don't forget that it's called "psychokinesis" but it's not really that - originally it was, but as the minoshiro library said, its scope extended hugely after a while.) (As for Noein, by the way, I think it did the "many worlds theory" well? Obviously scientifically it was kind of sketchy, but it was never meant to be scientifically accurate, the many worlds theory was basically a backdrop to the main theme of the show, that is, "in such a world what defines a person?" And in this it was, I think, very effective.) As for the Kiroumaru vs Squealer/Yakomaru debate, I can already see the battlefield here next week... In any case, I stand by what I said earlier: there are people who are just assholes, regardless of the circumstances, regardless of their goals. To me, Squealer is one of these people (bakenezumi). No doubt, he's a well-developed, very intriguing character - but that doesn't mean I have to like him. Also, I still think most people are approaching them from the wrong POV - their differences lie in their worldview as bakenezumi, not in their relationship with humans. Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-03-17 at 16:48. |
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2013-03-17, 16:44 | Link #79 | ||||||||
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What some of us have pointed out is that there are notable similarities between Kiroumaru and Yakomaru. That doesn't mean they're "two peas in a pod", but it does mean that they're not complete opposites either. Quote:
In fact, it suggests that if circumstances were just slightly different, Kiroumaru could have conceivably been doing much the same thing as what Yakomaru is doing now - Using a WMD to indiscriminately kill humans and/or destroy their villages. Quote:
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I never said he was being dishonest. You can sweeten the truth without being dishonest. Contrary to popular belief, politicians do tell the truth sometimes. Sometimes they simply put the sweetest possible spin on the truth, but it's still not technically a lie. Quote:
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Be careful here - If your argument is that the humans were so arbitrary or whimsical in their decisions to wipe out Queerat tribes that they simply couldn't be trusted, then that adds a great deal of credibility to Yakomaru's actions as well. Quote:
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"I am deeply ashamed I could not do as promised." - Kiroumaru to Saki, Episode 17 Kiroumaru is clearly leading the humans to believe that he is entirely loyal to them. Look, that is deceitful on his part unless he really is entirely loyal to the humans. To be fair, Yakomaru has definitely done some monstrous and horrible things. But now it sounds like Kiroumaru was at the very least contemplating the same. I think that Kiroumaru is somewhat more noble and trustworthy than Yakomaru, but I also think both men are hard-boiled pragmatists. It might be nice if Saki wasn't the only idealist in this work (especially since she's probably going to win in the end). Yakomaru will dress up his pragmatism in sugary language, and Kiroumaru will try to make his pragmatism sound "honourable" (and in Kiroumaru's case, I think he has himself convinced of it too), but both men are willing to crack a lot of eggs to make omelettes, if you catch my drift.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-03-17 at 16:55. |
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2013-03-17, 16:53 | Link #80 | ||||
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Location: Austria
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Yeah, the analogy isn't foolproof, or even very good. It's just hard to express my hunch. Also, "understanding the value of trust and collaboration" doesn't make one a collaborateur; they have to work together in this situation simply to survive. (The question of who is whose handler [as addressed by Theremin Vox and you later in the thread] is an interesting take on this theme. Power dfferentials are certainly relevant, and right now it's experience vs cantus, and I'd say that experience has the upper hand.) Quote:
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I have this theory (and you've mentioned this theory yourself) that the bakenezumi are actually the hunter-gatherers the minoshiro mentioned in episode four. I think they've been deliberately modified; humans with mole rat genes vs. humans with bonobo genes, so to speak. I think the core difference is that Kiroumaru accepts that he is now a bakenezumi, but Yakomaru thinks they have to transcend their biology - as, even if they kill all humans, their social structure is still a legacy of human oppression. I have a hard time believing that Yakomaru would go to Tokyo without considering the possibility of his death. Here's a question: do you think his plans account for the possibility? Does his second in command have orders as to what should happen if he shouldn't return? Or are they on their own, until someone else takes over? I'm halfway between you and Triple R on this issue; I'm not sure about Yakomaru's motivation at all. I can see him go either way. As for Kiroumaru's honour, I'm not convinced enough to trust him. For example, when he told Saki and Satoru not to answer Yakomaru, I did buy his reasoning (assuming smell-tracking isn't possible in the current situation). But I also wondered whether Yakomaru might have something to say to them that Kiroumaru doesn't want them to hear. Ultimately, honour doesn't seem to me to be the most important, or most interesting, or even greatest difference between Yakomaru and Kiroumaru. Finally, it's not very important, but I feel I should adress it, lest there be misunderstandings in the future: Quote:
Last edited by Dawnstorm; 2013-03-17 at 18:35. |
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