AnimeSuki Forums

eXistenZ · 2004-04-16, 21:40

a question about where ya draw the legality.

fansubs are in themselves illegal. wheter they are just the subtitle files or a digi sub.

the raws in themselves are illegal, after all, the recording and mass distribution of digital recordings of tv shows goes beyond the limits of fair use.

now to the point. geneon themselves said that because they help co produce a show doesnt neccessariy mean they are gonna license it. what if the show is unpopular. doesnt bring ratings and they see no financhial gain in subbing and dubbing the series. what if thier is no interest in the fansub community for said series. do they really wanna take a chance of dubbing and subbing it. i may not run a business but i know i have enough sense that it is not good to do bad business.

my guess for geneons co producing of the series, they get first bidding rights for distribution and translation of the series in north america. but like i said, if geneon doesnt see gain in thier distribution of the series they they will decline to make an offer. and then the japanese company can shop it around to other companys. mebbe AN entertainment would like to do it if geneon declines. who knows. another thought to add that this is that maybe geneon is co producing the new series because the deal they made to get license translation and distro rights to another series, was to help co produce a new series. mebbe they co produce to make money off the advertising rights.

take naruto. its owned by tv tokyo<i think>, yet it is sponsored by sony. has sony who has obviously paid money to help produce and put the show on tv cause hey its advertising, caused a huge ruckus about the amount of the fansubs produced and how many groups are fansubbing it. not that i know of.

by urban visions own words the anime industry of america takes the matter of licensing very seriously. so if they own the licensing rights they are very vocal to the fansub community about them stopping subbing and distrobution of said series.

should geneon co produced shows be listed? yes

should officialy announced licensed shows for NA distro be listed? Thats entirely up to you. which by current site policy is no.

bayoab · 2004-04-16, 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXistenZ

what if thier is no interest in the fansub community for said series.

Fansubs have NO bearing on the licensing of most new series. They invest money in the project because they believe that they can sell what they were shown in america. They can choose to sell the rights to another company if they don't believe it is profitable. They probably can still be out bid if the right price is paid. That is actually how I understood the geneon comment that its 90-95%. They used the example of bandai and gits:sac to be the counter example. My guess is what this means is another company can snatch the rights, but otherwise they have it.

All the name in the commercial break means is that the company has paid to put its advertisements after the opening and in the middle and at the end of the show.

And the % numbers are based on the official announced licenses (except a few which are unofficially announced).

eXistenZ · 2004-04-16, 23:58

i would think fansubs and the popularity of a series in fansubs would have a huge bearing on whether its licensed or not.

if i was a company who imported and translated and bought licenses for anime and i saw say over 4000+ people consistently downloading naruto, to me thats a market potential of over 4000 customers who have seen the series and would be willing to share word of mouth to increase that base of customers, id license it. it would be good business.

now if ya take a little known anime such as Urda, i didnt even know of this series till i just looked on the series list, which from all probability isnt a very popular anime, it may have a few die hard fans, but nothing significant to garner a whole lot of interest. so as a company i wouldnt buy the rights even if it is new because my potential market for this is small and it would cost me money to do this series.

i know john from animenations website watches fansubs, and probably gets asked for his opinion and observance on anime from the AN entertainment division on if a series should be licensed. he may even recommend some to them without thier asking him.

why? because he himself is a leecher in the fansub community.

as for series say like gundam which will all probably be licensed because of the huge exposure and popularity it already recieves on television. with gundam its not if, its when. that i can see being unoffically announced.

editted to add.

the anime companys would be full of fansub leechers would they not. why get into a business if you have no interest in the material. that would be like me trying to sell you on the latest car, and i have no interest in them. i wouldnt do a very good sell job.

fansub + popularity = license? i think so

fansub + no interest = unlicensed and dead in the water. why spend money when you arent gonna make money.

geneon may only co producing to make money from advertising. because the anime may be very popular in japan. but garner no interest here.

Yebyosh · 2004-04-17, 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXistenZ

i would think fansubs and the popularity of a series in fansubs would have a huge bearing on whether its licensed or not.

If you claim what you say is true, then automobile distributors must be finding out from car theft statistics to learn what type of automobiles to sell in that region.

LynnieS · 2004-04-17, 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

If you claim what you say is true, then automobile distributors must be finding out from car theft statistics to learn what type of automobiles to sell in that region.

It's also difficult to determine the correlation between the number of times a series's digisubs have been downloaded - given the fact that a digisub can be distributed in so many ways - and the amount of sales legitimate DVDs would bring to the distributor. I believe that this argument had been made in the past by others on the forum.

It's far better, IMHO, for the distributor to project expected sales based on historical numbers from other titles in the same genre. Those should be available to those in the business; marketing departments love these things for some reason.

Adjust for slippage and theft - does it really matter if sales are cannibalized by shoplifters who steal from a physical store or leachers who download using BT, IRC, Usenet, and etc.? - and pray that the number is reasonable.

To be totally honest, I see us as just insects to these guys. A few mosquitoes buzzing around and taking the occasional drinks are an annoyance; you can live with them if necessary. A horde of these little buggers is a danger to life and limb and is to be aerosol-bombed as quickly as possible. We're not Robin Hood and his merry band of men - heroes to the poor and the downtrodden - or whatever romantic ideas people think of when talking about leaching.

Perhaps we do contribute somewhat to the sales of DVDs and such by word of mouth, if nothing else. Possibly the companies see us as the cattle that were used to separate wheat from chaff, and you don't muzzle the kine for fear of their eating the grain. What of it? If you lose too much grain to the cows, instead of bread, you'll just slaughter a few heads of the greedy animals and have hamburger for dinner.

zalas · 2004-04-17, 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXistenZ

i would think fansubs and the popularity of a series in fansubs would have a huge bearing on whether its licensed or not.

if i was a company who imported and translated and bought licenses for anime and i saw say over 4000+ people consistently downloading naruto, to me thats a market potential of over 4000 customers who have seen the series and would be willing to share word of mouth to increase that base of customers, id license it. it would be good business.

Uh no.... These are 4000 rabid fanboys who've already seen the series. They'll only buy the DVD if they were actually interested in supporting the anime, but I'm pretty sure a good bunch of them would just not buy the DVD or buy "imports" because the domestics were "too expensive." Out of 1000 people downloading Naruto, probably only around 10 would actually buy the DVD. Now compare this to how many people (read: kids convincing parents) would buy the DVD if they aired this on Cartoon Network...

AnimeFangirl · 2004-04-17, 13:32

Slightly off-topic but still relevant, it seems like fansubs are coming under increasing scrutiny nowadays. I read in an article that the Brown University anime club got into trouble for showing both licensed and unlicensed anime without permission from the owners. What sort of trouble and what happened afterwards I don't know - all it said was the anime club was "facing legal scrutiny over its questionable adherence to international copyright law." Under the circumstances I don't think anyone should blame Animesuki for wanting to err on the side of prudence, no?

MrMonkey · 2004-04-17, 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

If you claim what you say is true, then automobile distributors must be finding out from car theft statistics to learn what type of automobiles to sell in that region.

Hello Mr. Straw Man.

Gold_Rogers · 2004-04-17, 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

If you claim what you say is true, then automobile distributors must be finding out from car theft statistics to learn what type of automobiles to sell in that region.

I dunno man, that sounds like comparing apples to oranges. Selling media and selling automobiles is significantly difficult. I still agree with you that I don't think companies pay huge attention to the fansubbing scene before they license titles, but the analogy just kinda sounded off for me.

Suikun · 2004-04-19, 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

If you claim what you say is true, then automobile distributors must be finding out from car theft statistics to learn what type of automobiles to sell in that region.

This is an interesting analogy, but as Gold_Rodgers said, I don't think it's completely relevant here. In the case of automobile theft, there are a lot of factors to take into account - how easy it is to break into the automobile, how much it stands out in the crowd, etc. etc.

I mean, it seems pretty obvious to me that more thieves would want to steal a car that can easily be broken into and started (and can be done so more quickly) and a car that doesn't stand out because the car thief, I would imagine, would want as little chance of being caught as possible. It seems entirely more likely that something like an old Jeep Cherokee would be broken into and stolen with the ease of getting into one and the fact that there are bound to be many of them on the road at the same time, as opposed to breaking into an H2, where fewer people own them, the securty of them is slightly greater, and they stand out more.

Anime is much different and doesn't contain those factors. The only real factor there that most people think about is whether it's licensed or not - mostly, whether there's going to be a US distributor that could send them a nasty letter if they're IP is listed as being connected to the BitTorrent tracker of a licensed anime. And although this single factor does affect the popularity of something, it doesn't do so quite as much as the factors in cars do.

I think there's a fine line between most people's opinions as to how much attention distributors pay to fansubs. Realize that many higher-ups at Bandai and ADV got their start as being fansubbers back in the VHS days, and they all do exhibit some form of respect for fansubbers in general. And I also have a hard time beliveing anyone could just ignore how insanely popular Fullmetal Alchemist and Naruto are right now - they're about as popular as anything that airs only on TV in Japan possibly could be. If you told me 1 1/2 years ago that unlicensed anime could be as popular as Naruto or FMA are, I'd have never believed you. So, I think in many cases distributors would be pretty foolish not to look towards fansubs as some gauge of popularity - otherwise, they might be just looking at FMA and saying "the story of a guy with no body but just armor" or "the story of some ninja who can turn into a girl at will won't interest Americans - we can't make any money off of this" and thus not licensing something that, obviously, could turn huge profits.

Obviously, the mainstream kids/teenagers who watches Dragon Ball Z on Toonami and the teenagers/adults who watch Inuyasha on Adult Swim will account for SO much higher DVD sales than the fansub viewers could possibly give them, and as another said in another post, the English dub viewer (who usually gives 0 craps about faithfulness to the original) is nearly every anime distributor's main target audience; but still, I think it's fair enough to say that if anime fansub viewers really really like something, then most mainstream DBZ/Inuyasha dub viewers will really like something as well. I mean, look at all the past examples - Dragon Ball Z, Sailor Moon, Cowboy Bebop - those all had huge followings with fansub viewers before coming to the states, and all of those shows enjoyed a lot of success here. The only example to the contrary I can think of is Pokemon - but even that, believe it or not, had some degree of fanfollowing (through the games) way back when it was presumed that Nintendo of America would think it too strange and wierd for the US.

So, I think it's pretty fair to say that if something does well within the fansub community, it'll do well with your average DBZ/Inuyasha loving joe. Whether anime distributors do look towards fansubs or not as a guage I don't know, but they'd be stupid not to, no matter how small a chunk of their audience we represent.

lordwu · 2004-04-19, 15:18

Per posts in another thread, most of the anime buyers are dub fans (I think the number is like 80% based on VHS dub vs. sub sales). Since fansubs are sub only (duh!), I don't think fansubs affect the anime industry a lot, either positively or negatively. But that's beyond the point of this thread. There was another thread on this debate if you want to talk about this.

I support not listing Geneon USA produced anime on animesuki. Actually, I don't really care if they list it or not since there are always other ways of obtaining these anime and I don't quite understand what the fuss about this. Since I like the forum quite much, I'd like to see animesuki free of trouble. It's always better to be on the safer side of the err.

Yebyosh · 2004-04-19, 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suikun

This is an interesting analogy, but as Gold_Rodgers said, I don't think it's completely relevant here. In the case of automobile theft, there are a lot of factors to take into account - how easy it is to break into the automobile, how much it stands out in the crowd, etc. etc.

My analogy was more of a sarcastic remark at a certain stance. It seems like quite a few people don't really get it or it was pretty much off the mark. It is relevant in the fact that companies don't look to criminal activities as research for their product's distribution, irregardless what the crime is. There are no perfect analogies in the standard commercial business models to what P2P piracy is this day. That pretty much creates the consternation between the companies and consumers because it is a new situation that none have faced. What happens when your physical product is transformed into an intellectual property?

I had more to say then but did not post it since I was worried how they would come across. LynnieS however worded almost exactly what I felt, in a more civil and succinct manner. Read his post (which was below my previous remark).

emessen · 2004-04-19, 21:12

i'll say my piece agn...

even with geneon helping to co-produce... they still admit it's not 100% certain.. that its 95%
even if it's 95% possibility of a liscence... there is still 5% that it is not going to be

that 5% is what people are arguing for... because of this slight margin there is a chance it
wont be... thats why there is still room for debate on the topic...

at least with an announcement of a liscence.. it is indisputable... you cant argue it anyway...

the question is to list these titles or not...

i say list them... because it is arguable... until it's confirmed to be liscenced.. in which case
you can't make a case for listing it....

microlith · 2004-04-19, 21:58

It's not arguable. Your "room" for debate leaves people gasping for air.

That 5% possibility does not validate ignoring the name on the screen, when we cannot possibly hope to know what that 5% will be. Especially considering that it's in Geneon USA's interests that the show get licensed, that 5% if not licensed by them will be licensed none the less.

Suikun · 2004-04-19, 22:21

Personally, I don't care whether Animesuki lists Geneon co-produced shows or not so much as I want them to make a very clear line as to what they will or won't list.

As many others stated, if AnimeSuki were to not allow Geneon USA titles to be listed, then there really isn't any reason for them to list things like the Gundam titles or shows like Prince of Tennis or Fullmetal Alchemist or One Piece (all of which have domain names registered to FUNimation, and all of which we know FUNi is interested in) because, although there is a small chance that Bandai won't get Gundam X or that FUNimation won't get One Piece, it's basically a really good bet that it'll happen.

Basically, the way I see it, seeing Geneon USA in the credits is just hard evidence that Geneon has the show licensed, the same as FUNi registering the Prince of Tennis domain is hard evidence that they have or are working really hard towards getting Prince of Tennis. It doesn't always work out, but in the end there's evidence pointing towards a US license on all those fronts. Basically, my point is if AnimeSuki isn't going to list shows with Geneon in the credits then they shouldn't list ANY show that has hard evidence that it's licensed - like One Piece or Prince of Tennis. Or Gundam X, etc. etc.

But, if AnimeSuki continues to list shows like Prince of Tennis despite all the evidence that it's licensed, then they should list shows with the co-produced indicators because, like I said, the whole co-produced thing is merely evidence - albeit very hard and good evidence - used towards speculation that the show has been licensed.

Either way, I don't care - the only thing that bugs me is that, as it stands, AnimeSuki seems to have a huge gray area of certain things they won't list (Hi No Tori, Tenjou Tenge) and things they do list (Prince of Tennis, Gundam X) that all are on the very same verge of being licensed by a US company. The people here at AnimeSuki need to decide where that line - a good, hard, clear line, and not this gray stuff - where this line stands. Are you going to list things that have considerable amount of evidence pointing towards a license, until the actual official announcement stands, or are you going to dispand all things that have considerable evidence towards being licensed.

That's what it comes down to - which side will you draw that line? Either way, I don't care. I just think, as it stands, that the current line you have is completely gray and shakey and confusing.

Either way, the leechers can decide for themselves what they will and won't download - some by personal choice won't download things with considerable evidence that it's licensed whether it's listed on AnimeSuki or not, and others will seek out fansubs of things that are fully licensed, no if's and's or but's, again whether it's on AnimeSuki or not. We all have our own code of ethics we follow, and what AnimeSuki believes and what they list isn't going to change that with anyone. And regardless of what AnimeSuki decides here, they need to be consistent... cause right now it seems to inconsistent and gray.

bayoab · 2004-04-19, 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suikun

As many others stated, if AnimeSuki were to not allow Geneon USA titles to be listed, then there really isn't any reason for them to list things like the Gundam titles or shows like Prince of Tennis or Fullmetal Alchemist or One Piece (all of which have domain names registered to FUNimation, and all of which we know FUNi is interested in) because, although there is a small chance that Bandai won't get Gundam X or that FUNimation won't get One Piece, it's basically a really good bet that it'll happen.

Gah, suki ate my full response, oh well, ill just make a short version:
Funimation: "we are doing ethical cybersquatting, we may or may not have those shows" != Geneon "9/10 times we have the show" != bandai "when it comes to gundam, it is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when."

emessen · 2004-04-19, 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by microlith

It's not arguable. Your "room" for debate leaves people gasping for air.

That 5% possibility does not validate ignoring the name on the screen, when we cannot possibly hope to know what that 5% will be. Especially considering that it's in Geneon USA's interests that the show get licensed, that 5% if not licensed by them will be licensed none the less.

that is ALL speculation.... valid yes.. but still speculation...

all im saying is that with a CONFIRMED liscence... the topic is closed to further debate

i think Suikun put it best in his latest post...

NoSanninWa · 2004-04-20, 02:42

Concerning the cybersquatting issue, this is really little more reliable than a rumor. For instance AnimeNation registered the domain name HaleGuu, but shortly afterwards confessed that they didn't get the show, they were just being hopefull. We just can't consider this evidence as more than marginally reliable.

Ganeon USA in the credits really is a much more reliable indicator than cybersquatting since so far they have all turned out to be licensed by Ganeon USA. Gundam on the other hand....

***GHDpro*** · 2004-04-20, 07:19

I'm getting sick of all people posting "What's wrong with AnimeSuki for not listing these anime?"
(referring to anime where a US company is listed in the credits)

Well, guess what, WE'RE JUST DOING WHAT ALL* OTHER ANIME SITES DO!!!
(* The ones that care about licenses that is)

Need examples?

Tenjo Tenge is also considered licensed by:
- AnimeOnDVD license list
- EnviroSphere

Full Metal Alchemist (~.com) is not considered licensed by:
- AnimeOnDVD license list
- EnviroSphere (they list it as just a rumor)

Gundam Mk (I/II/III/IV) is not considered licensed by:
- AnimeOnDVD license list
- EnviroSphere (not even as rumor)

So let me repeat:
CHANGE THE OPINION OF THE GENERAL ANIME WORLD*, THEN ANIMESUKI WILL FOLLOW.
But I doubt you'll be able to change general opinions on these matters easily...
(* Again only referring to those people who take licenses seriously)

If you round of 95% probability, you get "YES, it's licensed (100%)",
not "NO, it's unlicensed (0%)". Do your math...

Gold_Rogers · 2004-04-20, 08:43

I dunno what you mean by 'general opinion of the anime world.' It seems to me that this term is being used in referencing people who are in 'power' in the anime community, ie. those that run these sites that list whether or not things are licensed (or that house large popular anime forums). I am certain that you do not mean 'simple majority' in this case, or else we would've had a simple poll (maybe one on the front page so that all visitors could participate) in deciding this issue.

There are people who argue for the listing of Geneon USA co-produced titles and those that argue against it. In terms of raw numbers of people who've posted on this thread alone, it seems to me that both sides have sizable numbers of supporters. What would it take to convince Suki to list them? An overwhelming majority? An indisputable 100% vote? I am confused as to what 'convincing the general' means in this context.

The argument seems to have run its course. No one's opinion has changed, and all the points raised have been raised time and time again. The thread might as well be closed, unless someone can argue a brilliant point or come up with some information that us normal people do not have access to.

2004-04-16, 21:40	Link #61
eXistenZ pls..crac...anime need Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Canada	a question about where ya draw the legality. fansubs are in themselves illegal. wheter they are just the subtitle files or a digi sub. the raws in themselves are illegal, after all, the recording and mass distribution of digital recordings of tv shows goes beyond the limits of fair use. now to the point. geneon themselves said that because they help co produce a show doesnt neccessariy mean they are gonna license it. what if the show is unpopular. doesnt bring ratings and they see no financhial gain in subbing and dubbing the series. what if thier is no interest in the fansub community for said series. do they really wanna take a chance of dubbing and subbing it. i may not run a business but i know i have enough sense that it is not good to do bad business. my guess for geneons co producing of the series, they get first bidding rights for distribution and translation of the series in north america. but like i said, if geneon doesnt see gain in thier distribution of the series they they will decline to make an offer. and then the japanese company can shop it around to other companys. mebbe AN entertainment would like to do it if geneon declines. who knows. another thought to add that this is that maybe geneon is co producing the new series because the deal they made to get license translation and distro rights to another series, was to help co produce a new series. mebbe they co produce to make money off the advertising rights. take naruto. its owned by tv tokyo<i think>, yet it is sponsored by sony. has sony who has obviously paid money to help produce and put the show on tv cause hey its advertising, caused a huge ruckus about the amount of the fansubs produced and how many groups are fansubbing it. not that i know of. by urban visions own words the anime industry of america takes the matter of licensing very seriously. so if they own the licensing rights they are very vocal to the fansub community about them stopping subbing and distrobution of said series. should geneon co produced shows be listed? yes should officialy announced licensed shows for NA distro be listed? Thats entirely up to you. which by current site policy is no. Last edited by eXistenZ; 2004-04-18 at 14:51.

2004-04-16, 23:58	Link #63
eXistenZ pls..crac...anime need Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Canada	i would think fansubs and the popularity of a series in fansubs would have a huge bearing on whether its licensed or not. if i was a company who imported and translated and bought licenses for anime and i saw say over 4000+ people consistently downloading naruto, to me thats a market potential of over 4000 customers who have seen the series and would be willing to share word of mouth to increase that base of customers, id license it. it would be good business. now if ya take a little known anime such as Urda, i didnt even know of this series till i just looked on the series list, which from all probability isnt a very popular anime, it may have a few die hard fans, but nothing significant to garner a whole lot of interest. so as a company i wouldnt buy the rights even if it is new because my potential market for this is small and it would cost me money to do this series. i know john from animenations website watches fansubs, and probably gets asked for his opinion and observance on anime from the AN entertainment division on if a series should be licensed. he may even recommend some to them without thier asking him. why? because he himself is a leecher in the fansub community. as for series say like gundam which will all probably be licensed because of the huge exposure and popularity it already recieves on television. with gundam its not if, its when. that i can see being unoffically announced. editted to add. the anime companys would be full of fansub leechers would they not. why get into a business if you have no interest in the material. that would be like me trying to sell you on the latest car, and i have no interest in them. i wouldnt do a very good sell job. fansub + popularity = license? i think so fansub + no interest = unlicensed and dead in the water. why spend money when you arent gonna make money. geneon may only co producing to make money from advertising. because the anime may be very popular in japan. but garner no interest here. Last edited by eXistenZ; 2004-04-18 at 14:52.

2004-04-17, 13:32	Link #67
AnimeFangirl Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The dog gossips too much.	Slightly off-topic but still relevant, it seems like fansubs are coming under increasing scrutiny nowadays. I read in an article that the Brown University anime club got into trouble for showing both licensed and unlicensed anime without permission from the owners. What sort of trouble and what happened afterwards I don't know - all it said was the anime club was "facing legal scrutiny over its questionable adherence to international copyright law." Under the circumstances I don't think anyone should blame Animesuki for wanting to err on the side of prudence, no? __________________

2004-04-19, 21:12	Link #73
emessen Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003	i'll say my piece agn... even with geneon helping to co-produce... they still admit it's not 100% certain.. that its 95% even if it's 95% possibility of a liscence... there is still 5% that it is not going to be that 5% is what people are arguing for... because of this slight margin there is a chance it wont be... thats why there is still room for debate on the topic... at least with an announcement of a liscence.. it is indisputable... you cant argue it anyway... the question is to list these titles or not... i say list them... because it is arguable... until it's confirmed to be liscenced.. in which case you can't make a case for listing it.... __________________ Hook'em

2004-04-20, 02:42	Link #78
NoSanninWa Weapon of Mass Discussion Fansubber Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New York, USA	Concerning the cybersquatting issue, this is really little more reliable than a rumor. For instance AnimeNation registered the domain name HaleGuu, but shortly afterwards confessed that they didn't get the show, they were just being hopefull. We just can't consider this evidence as more than marginally reliable. Ganeon USA in the credits really is a much more reliable indicator than cybersquatting since so far they have all turned out to be licensed by Ganeon USA. Gundam on the other hand.... __________________ There's not that fine a line between willing suspension of disbelief and something just being stupid.

2004-04-19, 15:18	Link #71
lordwu Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003	Per posts in another thread, most of the anime buyers are dub fans (I think the number is like 80% based on VHS dub vs. sub sales). Since fansubs are sub only (duh!), I don't think fansubs affect the anime industry a lot, either positively or negatively. But that's beyond the point of this thread. There was another thread on this debate if you want to talk about this. I support not listing Geneon USA produced anime on animesuki. Actually, I don't really care if they list it or not since there are always other ways of obtaining these anime and I don't quite understand what the fuss about this. Since I like the forum quite much, I'd like to see animesuki free of trouble. It's always better to be on the safer side of the err.

2004-04-19, 21:58	Link #74
microlith Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Folsom, CA Age: 41	It's not arguable. Your "room" for debate leaves people gasping for air. That 5% possibility does not validate ignoring the name on the screen, when we cannot possibly hope to know what that 5% will be. Especially considering that it's in Geneon USA's interests that the show get licensed, that 5% if not licensed by them will be licensed none the less.

2004-04-19, 22:21	Link #75
Suikun Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Michigan Age: 37	Personally, I don't care whether Animesuki lists Geneon co-produced shows or not so much as I want them to make a very clear line as to what they will or won't list. As many others stated, if AnimeSuki were to not allow Geneon USA titles to be listed, then there really isn't any reason for them to list things like the Gundam titles or shows like Prince of Tennis or Fullmetal Alchemist or One Piece (all of which have domain names registered to FUNimation, and all of which we know FUNi is interested in) because, although there is a small chance that Bandai won't get Gundam X or that FUNimation won't get One Piece, it's basically a really good bet that it'll happen. Basically, the way I see it, seeing Geneon USA in the credits is just hard evidence that Geneon has the show licensed, the same as FUNi registering the Prince of Tennis domain is hard evidence that they have or are working really hard towards getting Prince of Tennis. It doesn't always work out, but in the end there's evidence pointing towards a US license on all those fronts. Basically, my point is if AnimeSuki isn't going to list shows with Geneon in the credits then they shouldn't list ANY show that has hard evidence that it's licensed - like One Piece or Prince of Tennis. Or Gundam X, etc. etc. But, if AnimeSuki continues to list shows like Prince of Tennis despite all the evidence that it's licensed, then they should list shows with the co-produced indicators because, like I said, the whole co-produced thing is merely evidence - albeit very hard and good evidence - used towards speculation that the show has been licensed. Either way, I don't care - the only thing that bugs me is that, as it stands, AnimeSuki seems to have a huge gray area of certain things they won't list (Hi No Tori, Tenjou Tenge) and things they do list (Prince of Tennis, Gundam X) that all are on the very same verge of being licensed by a US company. The people here at AnimeSuki need to decide where that line - a good, hard, clear line, and not this gray stuff - where this line stands. Are you going to list things that have considerable amount of evidence pointing towards a license, until the actual official announcement stands, or are you going to dispand all things that have considerable evidence towards being licensed. That's what it comes down to - which side will you draw that line? Either way, I don't care. I just think, as it stands, that the current line you have is completely gray and shakey and confusing. Either way, the leechers can decide for themselves what they will and won't download - some by personal choice won't download things with considerable evidence that it's licensed whether it's listed on AnimeSuki or not, and others will seek out fansubs of things that are fully licensed, no if's and's or but's, again whether it's on AnimeSuki or not. We all have our own code of ethics we follow, and what AnimeSuki believes and what they list isn't going to change that with anyone. And regardless of what AnimeSuki decides here, they need to be consistent... cause right now it seems to inconsistent and gray.

2004-04-20, 07:19	Link #79
*GHDpro* Administrator Administrator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Netherlands Age: 45	I'm getting sick of all people posting "What's wrong with AnimeSuki for not listing these anime?" (referring to anime where a US company is listed in the credits) Well, guess what, *WE'RE JUST DOING WHAT ALL OTHER ANIME SITES DO!!!** (* The ones that care about licenses that is) Need examples? Tenjo Tenge is also considered licensed by: - AnimeOnDVD license list - EnviroSphere Full Metal Alchemist (~.com) is not considered licensed by: - AnimeOnDVD license list - EnviroSphere (they list it as just a rumor) Gundam Mk (I/II/III/IV) is not considered licensed by: - AnimeOnDVD license list - EnviroSphere (not even as rumor) So let me repeat: *CHANGE THE OPINION OF THE GENERAL ANIME WORLD, THEN ANIMESUKI WILL FOLLOW.** But I doubt you'll be able to change general opinions on these matters easily... (* Again only referring to those people who take licenses seriously) If you round of 95% probability, you get "YES, it's licensed (100%)", not "NO, it's unlicensed (0%)". Do your math...

2004-04-20, 08:43	Link #80
Gold_Rogers Famous Dead Pirate Join Date: Mar 2004	I dunno what you mean by 'general opinion of the anime world.' It seems to me that this term is being used in referencing people who are in 'power' in the anime community, ie. those that run these sites that list whether or not things are licensed (or that house large popular anime forums). I am certain that you do not mean 'simple majority' in this case, or else we would've had a simple poll (maybe one on the front page so that all visitors could participate) in deciding this issue. There are people who argue for the listing of Geneon USA co-produced titles and those that argue against it. In terms of raw numbers of people who've posted on this thread alone, it seems to me that both sides have sizable numbers of supporters. What would it take to convince Suki to list them? An overwhelming majority? An indisputable 100% vote? I am confused as to what 'convincing the general' means in this context. The argument seems to have run its course. No one's opinion has changed, and all the points raised have been raised time and time again. The thread might as well be closed, unless someone can argue a brilliant point or come up with some information that us normal people do not have access to.