Mobile Suit Gundam AGE - Episode 43 Discussion/Poll

[Rising Dragon]

I don't think he was actually comparing the two of them and saying he'd turn out just like Flit, just that he certainly wouldn't turn out the way he did in the canon if Zeheart had murdered Romary.

[Revolutionist]

So, Second Moon came to Earth, and people never bothered to think, why if the ycould this all along, did it take Ezelcant 70 effin years to do so? So many lives could have been saved, hell it's not like the Federation could've done anything to them before Flit built the DODS rifles...Knowing Zeheart he won't even question it, clearly Ezelcant-sama could never be wrong...

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I don't think he was actually comparing the two of them and saying he'd turn out just like Flit, just that he certainly wouldn't turn out the way he did in the canon if Zeheart had murdered Romary.

Even if Zeheard did murder Romary, Asemu probably would have arrived at his "keep both sides at a balance" answer.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

So, Second Moon came to Earth, and people never bothered to think, why if the ycould this all along, did it take Ezelcant 70 effin years to do so? So many lives could have been saved, hell it's not like the Federation could've done anything to them before Flit built the DODS rifles...Knowing Zeheart he won't even question it, clearly Ezelcant-sama could never be wrong...

Well from Ezelcant's perspective, we know the reason. If you want a more credible reason overall, I'd go with tech limitations. Moving something that large over interplanetary distances isn't easy.

[FlareKnight]

I really wonder what Zeheart was thinking taking that hit. I mean this person is trying to kill all of you. Let the Super Pilot do his thing. I mean geeze that lance has been next to useless let it kill some people . No matter how sorry he felt for her, she had to go down. Only ended up getting his own unit busted up and she was shot down anyways. Maybe doing it so Asemu wouldn't do something negative in Kio's eyes or something.

No surprise that Flit got the job done. A few similarities to Girard at least when it comes to their losses creating that need to defeat the other side. Made sure that crazy woman wasn't going to get any of them killed.

Was kind of nice to have all the Gundams out fighting. Though when it comes to Kio he was doing more whining than fighting. In the end have to agree if he did ass kicking while constantly complaining at his enemies maybe people would care to listen to him. Plus what's even the point of grieving for Girard? In the end he knew absolutely nothing about her other than the fact that she wanted to kill him. A tragic person, but she was absolutely insane. This kid is going to be a pain to endure.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

First it was genocide, apparently that was ok,

Who has justified genocide now? Again Flit has done no such thing and accusing him now of committing genocide would be accusing him of thought crime. Ezelcant and the Vagan miltary on the other hand CAN be accused of genocide but we never see you have a go at them, so if anything it is you who thinks that actually committing genocide is ok but merely thinking about it is the big no no. So who's got the bigger issue of whitewashing? All signs shows that it's you.

and now it's trying to shoot people in the back who have no intention of fighting back.

Which again is a common thing during wartime, and as pointed out happens a lot in Gundam. if you haven't figured it by now we are having issues with your double standard of just calling Flit out while letting everyone else off the hook.

Go rewatch MSG, the Zeong head was still firing back at Amuro, Zeheart and Fram weren't shooting back at all. Flit intended to shoot them in the back like a coward.

Ok how about the scene in MSG when Amuro found his mother in a village, hid in the make shift hospital and killed one Zeon soldier through the bed sheets, and when the other ran for his life he gave chase to the doors and try to kill the other until his mum stops him? By your standard you judge Flit that would make Amuro doing the same coward act as Flit, thus making Flit not the first Gundam protagonist to do so, therefore proving my point of either you haven't watch many Gundam or that you are just spewing Flit-hate BS by being selective with your points. Your attempt at making Flit the sole bad Gundam protagonist is just showing more irrational bias with every post.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Who has justified genocide now? Again Flit has done no such thing and accusing him of committing genocide would be accusing him of thought crime. Ezelcant and the Vagan miltary on the other hand CAN be accused of genocide but we never see you have a go on them, so if anything it is you who thinks that actually committing genocide is ok but merely thinking about it is the big no no.

Your reading comprehension is abysmal. I never said he had committed genocide, I said he is inciting people to commit genocide by openly talking about Vagans as subhumans and calling for their extermination. That's hate speech, it leads to genocide, and it's wrong. Shame on you for defending that shit.

Which again is a common thing during wartime, and as pointed out happens a lot in Gundam. if you haven't figured it by now we are having issues with your double standard of just calling Flit out while letting everyone else off the hook.

wtf do you know about what's common in war time? Have you served? have you had people try to shoot you or blow you up? Don't presume to know what it's like. It's nothing like you see in movies or tv.

Ok how about the scene in MSG when Amuro found his mother in a village, hid in the make shift hospital and killed one Zeon soldier through the bed sheets, and when the other ran for his life he gave chase to the doors and try to kill the other until his mum stops him? By your standard you judge Flit that would make Amuro doing the same coward act as Flit. Your attempt at making Flit the sole bad Gundam protagonist is just showing more irrational bias with every post.

Amuro was 16, of course 16 year olds do irrational things. Flit is 60, he should know better. Fram and Zheart posed no threat whatsoever to him, and trying to shoot them in the back is a dick move anyway you look at it. Just because war today has lost any honor it had, doesn't make it right to shoot the enemy in the back as they retreat. That's the whole point.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Your reading comprehension is abysmal. I never said he had committed genocide, I said he is inciting people to commit genocide by openly talking about Vagans as subhumans and calling for their extermination. That's hate speech, it leads to genocide, and it's wrong. Shame on you for defending that shit.

Really? Is he holding mass rallies and inciting the general populace to destroy all Vagans? Is he writing books to talk about it?

In any case he really doesn't need to even if he was serious about it. The Vagans are giving the Federation more than enough reason that they cannot be reasoned with. The fact that the Federation offered them a truce/peace treaty and was rejected (because Ezcelant is not interested in it) would show the public that peace isn't possible.

wtf do you know about what's common in war time? Have you served? have you had people try to shoot you or blow you up? Don't presume to know what it's like. It's nothing like you see in movies or tv.

Have you? You've served in enough wars and times to see that soldiers act with honor and don't shoot others in the back? I've had several friends serve in Afghanistan and the battlefield isn't exactly a place of honor and one of them almost didn't make it back. War is ugly. We see it in the memoirs of generals, historic books, and even movies and TV shows.

Amuro was 16, of course 16 year olds do irrational things. Flit is 60, he should know better. Fram and Zheart posed no threat whatsoever to him, and trying to shoot them in the back is a dick move anyway you look at it. Just because war today has lost any honor it had, doesn't make it right to shoot the enemy in the back as they retreat. That's the whole point.

So because he's 16 it's okay for him to do things like that? Say we go with that argument, what about the dozens of other protagonists and other nameless grunts that did the same thing? You keep ignoring it so =

War's always been ugly. There's plenty of memoirs, books, etc. about hundreds of battles where generals would do whatever it took to win a battle by destroying as much of the enemy as possible.

Our point being is that it's ridiculous for you to single out Flit when his actions are in line with what everyone else has done in past Gundam series and even in this show. When the Vagans lost their battles, the Federation soldiers still fired on them as they ran away and yet you never said a thing. Hell a Clanche took a pot shot at a disabled Vagan suit and you never said anything about it. As Kaoshin said, the second you step onto the battlefield all bets are off. The enemy won't give you a second chance.

What happened here was that Flit was not willing to let Zeheart go because he's the main commander and it's standard warfare practice to cut off the head. He only stood down because Kio told him to as he later realizes there was a ceasefire in effect. If he was as crazy as you implied he would've thrown Kio off and still have gone after Zeheart and THEN you would have a case.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

wtf do you know about what's common in war time? Have you served? have you had people try to shoot you or blow you up? Don't presume to know what it's like. It's nothing like you see in movies or tv.

You fail at History.

Soldiers are allowed to shoot a retreating enemy. Except during a ceasefire.

It is civilians that are not allowed to shoot people who are retreating. As civilians are only allowed self defense.

[kk2extreme]

No one is giving Flit enough credit, if it wasn't for Flit, Earth sphere would be under vagan's control long ago and countless more innocents would die because of that...

Besides, have we ever see Flit doing anything close to genocide? He is just expressing his hate of vagan everytime we see him... He even tried to make peace to vagan in the first place after the first arc but got rejected outright

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by kk2extreme

Besides, have we ever see Flit doing anything close to genocide? He is just expressing his hate of vagan everytime we see him... He even tried to make peace to vagan in the first place after the first arc but got rejected outright

whoa whoa whoa where was that?

Are you talking about the 2nd Arc? Because I'm pretty sure Flit was not in charge of diplomacy there.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Really? Is he holding mass rallies and inciting the general populace to destroy all Vagans? Is he writing books to talk about it?

No, he's just telling captains to arm WMDs to wipe out a base they're trying to capture, is all...

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

No, he's just telling captains to arm WMDs to wipe out a base they're trying to capture, is all...

If they lose the base. Flit doesn't like loosing. Algreaus implies Flit left him a third option by leaving the photon blaster warm.

Then it all came to Seric's skill. He intimidated the Vegans with the Plasma Diver missile if they don't surrender.

If they lost the base it become a viable military target as it would be used as a Vegan staging ground and beachead.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

You fail at History.

Soldiers are allowed to shoot a retreating enemy. Except during a ceasefire.

It is civilians that are not allowed to shoot people who are retreating. As civilians are only allowed self defense.

Well, there was a deal there to let the vagan soldiers go and imprison the officers.

Zeheart is probably higher ranked than the vagan who accepted the deal so it's like whatever lol

I suppose Flit should'ved warned them b4 shooting them.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Have you? You've served in enough wars and times to see that soldiers act with honor and don't shoot others in the back? I've had several friends serve in Afghanistan and the battlefield isn't exactly a place of honor and one of them almost didn't make it back. War is ugly. We see it in the memoirs of generals, historic books, and even movies and TV shows.

I have as a matter of fact. Iraq 2006-2007. I still have nightmares 5 years later, and I don't think they'll go away.
Terrorists are a different type of enemy, they shoot at medics, and use underhanded tactics. In WWII that wasn't the case, it was easier to relate with the enemy and show some compassion when they were helpless than with people who use children as human shields, don't have uniforms and try to kill you with ieds, or shoot you in the back.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

Well, there was a deal there to let the vagan soldiers go and imprison the officers.

Those caught in the base. Zeheart does not fit that condition.

The one who did well was Aaron Simmons. He was so afraid the Vegans would kill him if he stayed at the Fed side that he defected. He still gets killed by the Vagans.

Karma got to him for being a self serving idiot.

Too bad Spriggan died without knowing Simmons played her. He sabotaged the test an set up Spriggan as an offering to the Vagans. That recording use to convince her likely a forgery.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Those caught in the base. Zeheart does not fit that condition.

I think that goes for all. They didn't specify.

But I agree, Zeheart is not covered by that. He is an official and should have stayed.

[Revolutionist]

It seemed like Flit was counting on Algreus' plan not working and then having to resort to the Plasma Diver Missile anyway, which is why he said "I'll leave the final decision to you". He knew Algreus would've had no choice but to fire it. To think that he always intended Seric to work his magic like that is quite silly. That was an unexpected outcome. Unlike Seric, who wanted to minimize casualties even if they are enmies, Flit just wanted to shoot it and be done with it. EXTERMINATE THE VAGANS AT ALL COSTS!

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Your reading comprehension is abysmal. I never said he had committed genocide, I said he is inciting people to commit genocide by openly talking about Vagans as subhumans and calling for their extermination. That's hate speech, it leads to genocide, and it's wrong. Shame on you for defending that shit.

Again you are showing your priorities to be all screwed up.
I call shame on you for defending the shit the Vagan military and Ezelcant is doing to the civilian population first - hate speech is nothing compared to the actions of what those guys are actually DOING. Fix this double standard of yours before trying to accuse others of doing shameful acts.

wtf do you know about what's common in war time? Have you served? have you had people try to shoot you or blow you up? Don't presume to know what it's like. It's nothing like you see in movies or tv.

Irrelevant of whether I've served or not, you are now attacking me personally as a last resort because you are backed into a corner, an ad hominem. As said the practice of giving chase to retreating enemies is even studied upon in detail in the The Art of War, which we know is a military text book that many great tacticians have drawn upon even today, so we know that it is definitely a part of military tactic history as a historic fact. In war time you don't treat the enemy as non-lethal until they surrender - retreat is not a signal that "you've won and can relax", and in some instance could possibly even turn out to be a lure to a trap. So no, shooting at retreating enemies is not a "dick move" or "low". To think otherwise is just being ignorant or stupid.

Also it just happens that I've got friends in the army who went to Afgan, one of my friend was even a high level tactician, he tells me shit all the time and I know that wiping out the enemy when they are retreating but not surrendering is definitely not off the tactician's rule books. All this is irrelevant anyway but I'm throwing it out just as a FWIW.

Amuro was 16, of course 16 year olds do irrational things. Flit is 60, he should know better. Fram and Zheart posed no threat whatsoever to him, and trying to shoot them in the back is a dick move anyway you look at it. Just because war today has lost any honor it had, doesn't make it right to shoot the enemy in the back as they retreat. That's the whole point.

Spin spin spin, you are just moving the goal posts. Pro tip: stop digging your hole any deeper.

I've just shown the facts that Flit is not the first nor the lowest as you claim he was, the rest is irrelevant. Trying to make it out like Amuro and others had reasons which Flit did not doesn't makes you look any better or wiser either. In fact in terms of military tactic Flit had way more justification in targeting Zeheart, the field commander, than Amuro for shooting at a grunt, but you'll just ignore that too.

Also funny you think war had honour back then, seriously you are really deluded and should take your own advice of not trusting the movies or war novels. If anything war today is more honourable than before when you see the types of horrific weapons humans made. Just take for instance the banning of some usage of land mines, or the banning of use of cluster and incendiary bombs etc. We've also learnt that targeting civilians is wrong, which for some reason the Vagan's never learnt and you keep glossing over in favour of attacking, in comparison, mere hate speech. Priorities people.

[BladeEntity]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

It seemed like Flit was counting on Algreus' plan not working and then having to resort to the Plasma Diver Missile anyway, which is why he said "I'll leave the final decision to you". He knew Algreus would've had no choice but to fire it. To think that he always intended Seric to work his magic like that is quite silly. That was an unexpected outcome. Unlike Seric, who wanted to minimize casualties even if they are enmies, Flit just wanted to shoot it and be done with it. EXTERMINATE THE VAGANS AT ALL COSTS!

If that were the case, he might as well just ask Algreus to fire the missle right away considering it seemed like they were losing instead of waiting to the last minute where the Federation would have lost much more casualties. So from Algreus POV I guess this indication gave him a idea that it was all part of his plan.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Again you are showing your priorities to be all screwed up.
I call shame on you for defending the shit the Vagan military and Ezelcant is doing to the civilian population first - hate speech is nothing compared to the actions of what those guys are actually DOING. Fix this double standard of yours before trying to accuse others of doing shameful acts.

Except I never defended it, you however have defended Flit's hate speech and subsequently tried to downplay genocide. Again, shame on you.

Irrelevant of whether I've served or not, you are now attacking me personally as a last resort because you are backed into a corner, an ad hominem. As said the practice of giving chase to retreating enemies is even studied upon in detail in the The Art of War, which we know is a military text book that many great tacticians have drawn upon even today, so we know that it is definitely a part of military tactic history as a historic fact. In war time you don't treat the enemy as non-lethal until they surrender - retreat is not a signal that "you've won and can relax", and in some instance could possibly even turn out to be a lure to a trap. So no, shooting at retreating enemies is not a "dick move" or "low". To think otherwise is just being ignorant or stupid.

Considering that you defend genocide, I shouldn't be surprised you find no issue with Flit trying to shoot a disabled mobile suit, in the back no less. What trap were they going to lure him into? The battle was won, that was a dick move.

Also it just happens that I've got friends in the army who went to Afgan, one of my friend was even a high level tactician, he tells me shit all the time and I know that wiping out the enemy when they are retreating but not surrendering is definitely not off the tactician's rule books. All this is irrelevant anyway but I'm throwing it out just as a FWIW.

LOL. This is the biggest joke I have read from you. "high level tacticians" are out of touch with the real situation on the ground, they make up ridiculously restrictive R.O.E that put us at risk and just plain get people killed. There's a lot of threat assessment going on, lots of can you should you. The biggest one is you can't even fire unless fired upon first, which pretty much the enemy always gets the first strike

Spin spin spin, you are just moving the goal posts. Pro tip: stop digging your hole any deeper.

I've just shown the facts that Flit is not the first nor the lowest as you claim he was, the rest is irrelevant. Trying to make it out like Amuro and others had reasons which Flit did not doesn't makes you look any better or wiser either. In fact in terms of military tactic Flit had way more justification in targeting Zeheart, the field commander, than Amuro for shooting at a grunt, but you'll just ignore that too.

Also funny you think war had honour back then, seriously you are really deluded. If anything war today is more honourable than before when you see the types of horrific weapons humans made. Just take for instance the banning of some usage of land mines, or the banning of use of cluster and incendiary bombs etc. We've also learnt that targeting civilians is wrong, which for some reason the Vagan's never learnt and you keep glossing over in favour of attacking, in comparison, mere hate speech. Priorities people.

This is even more asinine than the previous comment. Back in WWI soldiers would meet in no man's land to play soccer on holidays during ceasefires. It was a brutal war, but it was still honorable in the sense that it was two clearly defined armies fighting each other, and there were rules to conducting warfare that were followed. War today is the least honorable. The enemy doesn't follow the geneva convention, they wear civilian clothes and take advantage of that by blending into the population, they fight with IEDs, suicide bombings, they use women and children as human shields (I actually saw this happen myself).

This hole is actually pretty comfy.