U.S. Politics Thread (2017 going forward)

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

Guys I think you're being too hard on man-made climate change deniers. We're just not getting the message across well enough, so here

And how? When I see climate change deniers using the same shitty arguments as people who claim vaccines cause autism or Jehovah's Witnesses who reject blood transfusion even though lives are at stakes, I hold every single card in my hand to nail them in public because people have died. It's the kind of position where denying the shedload of scientific facts will lead people to die, and it's totally unacceptable by any standard.

Ignorance doesn't forgive.

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by OH&S

^
I'll briefly respond to the easy things because I'm short on time.

Firstly, could I kindly ask you to put all of that in tldr tags as we are now talking about the science rather than the politics?

TL;DR…

frivolity

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I still consider our discussion to be fully relevant, but I'll reconsider about the TLDR in the next post, if there's one. Happy to wait for your full reply, and have a great weekend

Originally Posted by Haak

Not that there's really any point to this particular argument anymore (since it's already been established that Cook's 2016 paper relies on more than just the abstracts), but your paper about chemistry papers is super weaksauce. Data and conclusions are different things. It's easy to imagine data being inconsistent between abstracts and the full papers. It's much harder to imagine conclusions/opinions being inconsistent. In any case, even the study you linked to acknowledged that "The majority of data inconsistencies were minor".

If your lesson was not to rely on abstracts in research then that would make sense if it was about proving hypotheses and not relying on abstracts from other papers because the underlying methodology could be bad. But that has little relevance when talking in terms of consensus.

If we're talking about Cook's (2016) paper that replied to Tol (2015) in defence of his 2013 paper, then all he did was to say that his 2013 paper is consistent with the findings of other studies. However, the 2016 paper makes it clear that the 2013 paper was based on abstracts, and only referred to conclusions if the position could not be identified.

If your position is that abstracts are an accurate way to measure opinions then that's your call, but again I note the criticism made in Powell (2015), which Cook (2016) cited.

The chemistry paper is simply the result of a quick search. Sorry for not being able to remember a paper introduced to me 5 years ago

Listen, this kind of evasiveness is really tiresome. If you can't link John Cook to any Green Energy Industry money (like I did with your sources and petro dollars) then either say that or nothing at all. Don't try and change the subject.

In any case, I'll same thing I said last time: Take a look at the other authors. John Cook is completing a PhD is Cognitive Psychology and perceptions on climate change fall well within that realm. If any part of his research requires more expert opinion on climate science then he has plenty of it at his disposal.

My criticism of John Cook was about the fact that he discounts the views of a whole array of scientific experts in fields other than climate science, when he himself isn't an expert working in the field of climate science. This was the exact criticism I made in earlier posts. I don't see what's evasive about that.

If what you're seeking is an explicit statement, then sure: there is no evidence linking John Cook to Green Energy Industry money aside from the research institution that he works at.


Edit: Just saw this.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

And how? When I see climate change deniers using the same shitty arguments as people who claim vaccines claim autism or Jehovah's Witnesses who reject blood transfusion even though lives are at stakes, I hold every single card in my hand to nail them in public because people have died. It's the kind of position where denying the shedload of scientific facts will lead people to die, and it's totally unacceptable by any standard.

Ignorance doesn't forgive.

I consider the other side of the coin to be just as bad: people who rush to spend billions of dollars of public funds without fully understanding the situation are leading even more people to die.

As Jaden pointed out, there are several stages of the climate change argument:

1) The earth is warming overall
2) Fossil fuels are the main contributor to recent trends
3) How bad is it going to be for humanity?
4) What should be done about it?

I'm of the view that (1) is settled, while (2) to (4) are not. Jaden is of the view that (1) and (2) are settled, while (3) and (4) are not. OH&S, as far as I can tell, holds the same view as Jaden (maybe that (3) is settled too?). Akuma probably considers all four to be settled, and I don't know about Haak.

Decisions on funding the green energy industry should be made when (4) is settled. Prematurely devoting billions of taxpayer money to green energy without fully understanding what's the best way to go about it is what will actually cause people to die. And I'm not talking about people dying 300 years from now, but people actually dying over the next few years from misallocation of resources.

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by frivolity

I still consider our discussion to be fully relevant, but I'll reconsider about the TLDR in the next post, if there's one. Happy to wait for your full reply, and have a great weekend

Cheers.

I'll make these quick comments as it doesn't involve a lot of thinking:

TL;DR…

Akuma Kousaka, KiraYamatoFan and anyone else who cares

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[MCAL]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/politi...inkId=33075834

Who knew Trump Supporters were the real Mexicans all along...

[Sugetsu]

An egotistical spoiled man-child with racist and authoritarian tendencies that can't think before he tweets... And of top of that he has filled his cabinet with the worst possible choices to regulate each post, all under the watchful eye of the Kremlin.

Exciting times ahead indeed, almost too exciting, might want to buckle up first.

[ChuckE]

Regarding climate change...I bet no matter how much money governments will spend it won't be enough. Because it is basically a black hole. How effective are the current measures?


The Earth will be burn as long as we won't deal with the Sun anyway

[Honoakari]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

An egotistical spoiled man-child with racist and authoritarian tendencies that can't think before he tweets... And of top of that he has filled his cabinet with the worst possible choices to regulate each post, all under the watchful eye of the Kremlin.

Exciting times ahead indeed, almost too exciting, might want to buckle up first.

You really hate Trump, do you? Just insult after insult, with no arguments at all. For example, you say he has racist tendencies. What's your basis for that?

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Honoakari

... you say (Donald Trump) has racist tendencies. What's your basis for that?

You are in total denial mode. Here we have a person that from day 1 of the announcement he would seek the presidency has labeled a whole group of persons as (mostly) rapists and criminals due to their ethnicity. He is looking to build a fortified wall at times when net illegal migration is negative. He wants to deport millions of hard working people because they do not fit his visions of a wasp USA.

Of course you are going to say "he did not meant that", which is all colors of odd since people expect politicians to do as they promised (and feel betrayed when they don't), you don't get to personally choose what things he really mean and which he did not.

[Honoakari]

Here we have a person that from day 1 of the announcement he would seek the presidency has labeled a whole group of persons as (mostly) rapists and criminals due to their ethnicity.

You know, I'd really like if you or someone else could provide some quotes. Something that you consider to be direct proof of Trump's racism.

He is looking to build a fortified wall at times when net illegal migration is negative. He wants to deport millions of hard working people because they do not fit his visions of a wasp USA.

Illegal immigrants are breaking the law by being in US. Therefore, they must be found and punished (imprisonment, deportation, etc.). Whether they're hard-working or not is irrelevant.

[ChuckE]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

You are in total denial mode. Here we have a person that from day 1 of the announcement he would seek the presidency has labeled a whole group of persons as (mostly) rapists and criminals due to their ethnicity.

Well if 10 people of raceX do 3 crimes and 10 people of raceY do 7 crimes, guess what race has the most criminal activity?

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

He is looking to build a fortified wall at times when net illegal migration is negative. He wants to deport millions of hard working people because they do not fit his visions of a wasp USA.

If you are a citizen with all corresponding attributes - ID, etc. nobody is gonna deport you.

I am laughing out loud every time when I hear that people does not want to deport illegals. I mean - WTF? Why? They are ILLEGALs. They are not legal and basically violate the law

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

Of course you are going to say "he did not meant that", which is all colors of odd since people expect politicians to do as they promised (and feel betrayed when they don't), you don't get to personally choose what things he really mean and which he did not.

If we assume that the amount of blacks and white are the same and extrapolate the criminal activity by race - guess who will be the winner?

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Honoakari

You know, I'd really like if you or someone else could provide some quotes. Something that you consider to be direct proof of Trump's racism.

Is that your final answer? Well, I am not going to google for you something that Donald Trump has repeated on numerous occasions (that has printed in several news media outlets), if you want to bury your head in the sand go ahead, but this is no obscure quote open to various interpretations.

Illegal immigrants are breaking the law by being in US. Therefore, they must be found and punished (imprisonment, deportation, etc.). Whether they're hard-working or not is irrelevant.

People that are providing paid work to illegal immigrants are the real culprits here (no one would risk going into the USA otherwise), but no one ever mentions them, no one ever asks that the full force of the law be used on them, whether it is hefty fines or time in prison. The hard cold truth is that racists use the "they are breaking the law" excuse to cover themselves up and the people profiting from 21st century slave labor.

Originally Posted by ChuckE

Well if 10 people of raceX do 3 crimes and 10 people of raceY do 7 crimes, guess what race has the most criminal activity?


If we assume that the amount of blacks and white are the same and extrapolate the criminal activity by race - guess who will be the winner?

This is so old it is not even funny. Thinking in the 21st century that a certain ethnicity is more prone to commit crimes is so stupid. *jonathan josestar* you will say that the statistics support you. They support you because you are using them wrong (you can also cut yourself with scissors if you do not know how to use them). Check the crime statistics by income level, you will then realize that people with the lowest income commit most of the crimes (whether they are white, black, asian, latino, etc. is irrelevant). The higher you are in the income piramid the least likely you will commit crimes and the less likely they will be violent crimes. I f you have food and other basics, it is hard to tempt you to break the law to get money, it is that simple.

It used to be in the 20th century that the italians were blamed for commiting crime. Nowadays italians are better off, so no one ever mentons them even if they have seen the Godfather movies. Latinos are doing the same so racists know they have to do something now since if they wait another decade they will not be able to blame crime rates on latinos because their income on average would have improved enough.

[Honoakari]

Well I don't have the time to google stuff either. You claim something => you have the burden of proof.

People that are providing paid work to illegal immigrants are the real culprits here (no one would risk going into the USA otherwise), but no one ever mentions them, no one ever asks that the full force of the law be used on them, whether it is hefty fines or time in prison.

Personally, I blame the loose border security. Had the borders been secure, no illegals would have entered US to get those jobs in the first place.

The hard cold truth is that racists use the "they are breaking the law" excuse to cover themselves up and the people profiting from 21st century slave labor.

I do not care what races the illegals belong to. If they're breaking the law, they should be punished.

Or do you disagree with the idea that the rule of law should be upheld?

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Honoakari

Well I don't have the time to google stuff either. You claim something => you have the burden of proof.

There is such a thing as "common knowledge" so no, I am not going to spoon feed you nor you are going to get a free pass with you "give me a link" attitude.

Personally, I blame the loose border security. Had the borders been secure, no illegals would have entered US to get those jobs in the first place.

You have a land border 3200 km long and you seriously blame border security? As I said before, no one would have ever the border (even if it was plain open like a century ago) if there was no paid work waiting for them on the other side.

I do not care what races the illegals belong to. If they're breaking the law, they should be punished.

Or do you disagree with the idea that the rule of law should be upheld?

As I said before, punish *harshly* anyone giving even one dollar payment to said immigrants and you will not need to deport anyone, everybody will leave the USA in droves since there is no longer paid work for them. Truth is the USA needs fresh influx of immigrants to keep their population young to pump the economy with those low paying jobs, that is why no real attempt to punish people hiring illegal labor has been done since the Reagan amnesty.

[ChuckE]

Originally Posted by Honoakari

I do not care what races the illegals belong to. If they're breaking the law, they should be punished.

Or do you disagree with the idea that the rule of law should be upheld?

If you are not white - then yes I mean everybody makes mistakes you know

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

People that are providing paid work to illegal immigrants are the real culprits here (no one would risk going into the USA otherwise), but no one ever mentions them, no one ever asks that the full force of the law be used on them, whether it is hefty fines or time in prison. The hard cold truth is that racists use the "they are breaking the law" excuse to cover themselves up and the people profiting from 21st century slave labor.

Well personally if those guy won't have that "illegal" resource they won't be able to provide the work for them. It is not that there is not human trafficing lol

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

This is so old it is not even funny. Thinking in the 21st century that a certain ethnicity is more prone to commit crimes is so stupid.

In 21st century we've got guys who kill infidels Century means nothing. I mean in 19th people consider themselves modern society too

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

*jonathan josestar* you will say that the statistics support you. They support you because you are using them wrong (you can also cut yourself with scissors if you do not know how to use them). Check the crime statistics by income level, you will then realize that people with the lowest income commit most of the crimes (whether they are white, black, asian, latino, etc. is irrelevant). The higher you are in the income piramid the least likely you will commit crimes and the less likely they will be violent crimes. I f you have food and other basics, it is hard to tempt you to break the law to get money, it is that simple.

So? I mean nobody is asking them to come and not doing everything you can to earn money. How many refugees for example are even trying to learn the language of the country they are in? Yet people expect from government some benefits and support just because.

You know I have been always wondering why it is often the people have more children when they have less money. I mean it does not make any sense...

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

It used to be in the 20th century that the italians were blamed for commiting crime. Nowadays italians are better off, so no one ever mentons them even if they have seen the Godfather movies. Latinos are doing the same so racists know they have to do something now since if they wait another decade they will not be able to blame crime rates on latinos because their income on average would have improved enough.

Let's do nothing! I mean, let the show go on! Killing, robbering, raping, bombing! Let's not stop and touch it all. Let them continue. When it stops everybody will forget about it after all. Let's take for example the guy who was shooting in the airport. Ok. Let's do nothing. One, two such events etc. I believe in 50-60 years it will stop. And you? ROFL

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

Truth is the USA needs fresh influx of immigrants to keep their population young to pump the economy

We can see how current youth are pumping the economy. Also we can release some youth from prison - they can pump the economy too.

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

that is why no real attempt to punish people hiring illegal labor has been done since the Reagan amnesty

That is simply because too many people benefit for it (cheap labor - big profit, corruption etc.). And that cannot be simply resolved.

[Sugetsu]

Originally Posted by Honoakari

You really hate Trump, do you? Just insult after insult, with no arguments at all. For example, you say he has racist tendencies. What's your basis for that?

I have made plenty of arguments, perhaps I haven't been put a lot effort into many of them because I simply believe that Trump's faults are very self-evident and quite easy to see if one applies a little logic and reasoning.

I invite you to deconstruct every word of my last post and analyse every claim by looking for any examples. Let me help you:

Why is Trump a spoiled person?
Why is Trump a man-child?
Why is Trump a racist?
Why is Trump a person with authoritarian tendencies?
Why Trump doesn't think before he tweets?
Why Trump has chosen the among the worst people to fill his cabinet posts?
Why is the Kremlin so involved in this whole mess?

I can argument every question with plethora of evidence and logic based arguments, and I am sure most users in this forums can do the same. If you don't bother to answer these questions yourself then I'll do it in my next post.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by ChuckE

Well personally if those guy won't have that "illegal" resource they won't be able to provide the work for them. It is not that there is not human trafficing lol

There is human trafficking because there is a market for them, remove the market and there will be none. To do so you have to harshly punish those people paying for illegal labor. As simple as that.

Let's do nothing! I mean, let the show go on! Killing, robbering, raping, bombing! Let's not stop and touch it all. Let them continue. When it stops everybody will forget about it after all. Let's take for example the guy who was shooting in the airport. Ok. Let's do nothing. One, two such events etc. I believe in 50-60 years it will stop. And you? ROFL

Obviously you believe in Trump words that hispanics are rapists and criminals. That is why you think immediate action is needed. *yawn*

Also we can release some youth from prison - they can pump the economy too.

*double facepalm*

That is simply because too many people benefit for it (cheap labor - big profit, corruption etc.). And that cannot be simply resolved.

You can *gasp* apply the law on those wasp slave drivers you know.

[ChuckE]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

Obviously you believe in Trump words that hispanics are rapists and criminals. That is why you think immediate action is needed. *yawn*

We should open the borders for hispanics! I believe that way the amount of criminal records will be less. Beautiful idea!
Wow! Suddenly I realize that we should not punish criminals too! After all they might not commit crimes anymore!

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

You can *gasp* apply the law on those wasp slave drivers you know.

Do the minimum labor pay 15$ and stil you will have those who pay less but in documents set 15$. You cannot stop human greed. In my country people even can steal your 5$ package at post office.

Law does not work if you are deep underground or have deep pockets

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by ChuckE

We should open the borders for hispanics!

As a matter of fact you have done so for decades, that is the reason miami is full of cuban exiles, yet I do not see crime records boom in florida.

Wow! Suddenly I realize that we should not punish criminals too! After all they might not commit crimes anymore!

Yep, in your world view latinos = criminals, it is clear as the light of day that trump did not invent that idea, he simple profited politically from it.

Do the minimum labor pay 15$ and stil you will have those who pay less but in documents set 15$.

That is against the law and therefore a crime, what happened to all that bravado of "Law should be applied, only non-whites think otherwise".

You cannot stop human greed.

YES WE CAN! That is one of the reasons laws are created.

In my country people even can steal your 5$ package at post office.

Which is a federal crime in the USA, simple as that.

Law does not work if you are deep underground or have deep pockets

That is true if you are a country where the rule of law does not apply. ATM the usa is in 18th place (out of 113), but I am positive that Trump will make that go lower with each year he is potus.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

And how? When I see climate change deniers using the same shitty arguments as people who claim vaccines cause autism or Jehovah's Witnesses who reject blood transfusion even though lives are at stakes, I hold every single card in my hand to nail them in public because people have died. It's the kind of position where denying the shedload of scientific facts will lead people to die, and it's totally unacceptable by any standard.

Ignorance doesn't forgive.

Pssst, you missed the joke

But moving on now that we've established the fact of anthropogneic climate change, I hope Trump isn't as dangerous with nukes as he lets on. Wouldn't it be funny for the largest nuclear arsenal to just suddenly get turned loose?

Seriously, guys. None of us are going to be making light of his shit when he throws shit your way. Scare tactics? You bet; Hillary's flaws as a politician will never have been as dangerous as Trump's flaws as a human being (thank you based Sam Harris)

[ChuckE]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

Pssst, you missed the joke

But moving on now that we've established the fact of anthropogneic climate change, I hope Trump isn't as dangerous with nukes as he lets on. Wouldn't it be funny for the largest nuclear arsenal to just suddenly get turned loose?

Seriously, guys. None of us are going to be making light of his shit when he throws shit your way. Scare tactics? You bet; Hillary's flaws as a politician will never have been as dangerous as Trump's flaws as a human being (thank you based Sam Harris)

Hillary's hands are dirty. Being in politics for so many years she basically in cahoots with a lot of group of interests. Moreover she's backed by different organizations. She is a puppet for certain groups. Every politician is puppet - it is a given though. Now for example running for New York mayor position I highly doubt she will do it out of her own volition (if she does of course).

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

As a matter of fact you have done so for decades, that is the reason miami is full of cuban exiles, yet I do not see crime records boom in florida.

Aren't those cubans were basically the refugees? And also...How many are those cubans?

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

Yep, in your world view latinos = criminals, it is clear as the light of day that trump did not invent that idea, he simple profited politically from it.

Those who work in companies and look like civilized person (not some street junk) won't be as suspicious for me as others. I do not care actually about the race - if person learnt the language and adapted to customs of the country - welcome.

Another issue that I happen to see is that all the races are much more forgiving towards the same race criminals. (also there are some priviliged groups too)

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

That is against the law and therefore a crime, what happened to all that bravado of "Law should be applied, only non-whites think otherwise".

YES WE CAN! That is one of the reasons laws are created.

Which is a federal crime in the USA, simple as that.

That is true if you are a country where the rule of law does not apply. ATM the usa is in 18th place (out of 113), but I am positive that Trump will make that go lower with each year he is potus.

The are different kind of laws. One for peasants - one for elites. For elites it is simple - if your pockets are deep and you are not in conflict of interests with another influental person - you will live free from law forever (though it is up to person whether violate or not).

How many politics were caught by hand being corrupted? It is not that every politician is pure lol it is just that there are no conflicts of interests. One influental person backed by another influental person. But peasant should follow the law and cannot avoid it. Well if he does not have some connections Or was not caught red handed