Log Horizon S2 - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

No definition I've found for that term matches anything they did. Try again?

Originally Posted by Metaneo

They didn't wall hack anything, all they did was separate the bosses so they wouldn't help each other. The monsters might be able to ignore Dungeon/Raid rules, but they still can't ignore combat rules..

But they pretty much did.
The anime didn't explain it, but the move he used to cut the steel bars was actually not supposed to be able to do that.

It was a party-trick skill, sort of like how "toys" work in WoW.
Zantetsuken, same name as the famed Goemon's sword that cuts steel, was a move that can be used out of combat to showcase cutting summoned objects.
Objects such as stone statue will appear out of nowhere, just to be cut.

But after the world started becoming real, some players found out the move can actually cut real objects now. That's how they "cheated" their way out of the room, by cutting an object that's not supposed to be destructible.

It is closest thing to wall hack as you can get.

It's all fair and games since the Raid bosses cheated first though.

[kukuru]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

They didn't wall hack anything, all they did was separate the bosses so they wouldn't help each other. The monsters might be able to ignore Dungeon/Raid rules, but they still can't ignore combat rules.

Wallhacking:

Spoiler for Definition:

Wallhacking allows a player to see through solid or opaque objects and/or manipulate or remove textures, to know in advance when an opponent is about to come into targeting range from an occluded area. This can be done by making wall textures transparent, or modifying the game maps to insert polygonal holes into otherwise solid walls.

As with the aimbot, wallhacking relies on the fact that an FPS server usually sends raw positional information for all players in the game, and leaves it up to the client's 3D renderer to hide opponents behind walls, in plant foliage, or in dark shadows. If the game map rendering could be turned off completely, all players could be seen moving around in what appears to be empty space. Complete map hiding offers no advantage to a cheater as they would be unable to navigate the invisible map pathways and obstacles. However if only certain surfaces are made transparent or removed, this leaves just enough of an outline of the world to allow the cheater still to navigate it easily. Wallhacking is more widely used than aimbot as it provides an almost undetectable consistent hack, it is also much more dependable as in you will know where every player is before and can pre-aim or pre-fire and would not give constant headshots and would look less like a bot, it is well known in such games as Halo and the Call of Duty series.

When used in conjunction certain wallhacks allow the player to shoot through solid objects, which is known as "opk" (One Place Killing) in such games as Combat Arms, because the killer can generally stay in one spot. A subset known as WhiteWalls removes the color/texture from objects in the surrounding environment, providing distinct contrast to opposition character models, which remain colored/textured. A subset of wallhacking is also called "chamming."

That's FPS....wow I see people don't really MMO history as much these days. This is the classic of classics

Wall hack is a general term for using background objects to bypass game mechanics as they were intended. Especially in MMO that has advance over the decades, and more so since they popularized "jump".

The first wall hacks in MMO abused the use of of too simple AIs that follow and attack in a straight line. Players generally use the semi transperent walls and terrain to squeeze pass a wall and attack the enemy without getting hit back. Ragnarok Online it was almost a life since they took advantage of the engine's incredible basic AI(there wasn't even a hate system in RO) and the developers lack of response to any type of cheating.

Thus a invisible "wall"

This advance as other forms of texture abuse was made. Such as trees, pillars, or doorways. This was the goto method for encounters since developers hadn't yet "invented" "monster territories" in which a monster will either reset or switch AI patterns when it can't attack a target.

It is popular when a certain MMO start having players solo seemly impossible bosses by slowly maneuvering boss into objects slowing them down or completely bugging their A.I. to farm them.

In semi modern MMOs, this is the 1st trick MMO raiders try to strategized and exploit and depending on the group shun such thinking.

Some are semi legit tactics, such as using the now 3D terrain to avoid AoEs or certain attack.

AkA a range players standing on a piller/tree/wall because the engine can't make spherical attacks. (most developers end up either banning and removing them in patches).

Some are complete hacks, such as here, where you take aggro and lure a boss pass a door/platform, and bug their AI. FF11 had a very famous one...very famous.

And there are still more nasty ones like intentionally falling off a platform or do something with the terrain to bug an AI script. FF14, GW, etc had a rash of them.


Basically Shiroe did something every two bit MMO gamer would have done in 10 minutes.

[Random Wanderer]

...He wasn't using the terrain to avoid attacks. They were using skills to tank them. They just kept the bosses far enough apart so that their aoe attacks wouldn't overlap.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by aohige

But they pretty much did.
The anime didn't explain it, but the move he used to cut the steel bars was actually not supposed to be able to do that.

It was a party-trick skill, sort of like how "toys" work in WoW.
Zantetsuken, same name as the famed Goemon's sword that cuts steel, was a move that can be used out of combat to showcase cutting summoned objects.
Objects such as stone statue will appear out of nowhere, just to be cut.

But after the world started becoming real, some players found out the move can actually cut real objects now. That's how they "cheated" their way out of the room, by cutting an object that's not supposed to be destructible.

It is closest thing to wall hack as you can get.

It's all fair and games since the Raid bosses cheated first though.

Not to mention that Ruseato "cheated" in return by creating minions without any external "help"

Originally Posted by kukuru

Basically Shiroe did something every two bit MMO gamer would have done in 10 minutes.

Doesn't matter. If it works, it works. They're pretty desperate and if there's a good idea, they'll take it. Something every two bit MMO gamer would have done? Even better! Then there's no need for further explanations =3

And Lucy- I mean Ruseato bypassing the combat rules effectively shows that the Adventurers can continue to apply MMO common sense but the monsters are no longer obliged to humor them any more.

[Strikefreedom117]

because i havent read the LN, how is the girl in DemiDemi flashback his wife? i thought it was just the maid who gave no fucks how strong he was.

im missing something important now and im pissed

[Krono]

Originally Posted by Strikefreedom117

because i havent read the LN, how is the girl in DemiDemi flashback his wife? i thought it was just the maid who gave no fucks how strong he was.

im missing something important now and im pissed

I haven't gotten around to reading volume 7 yet, but back in episode two Tetra is telling Naotsgu all about what's been going on in Susukino and she mentions that Demikas is married now. Specifically he's married to a lander noble who he'd originally kidnapped to be his servant. It's not specifically stated to be his wife, but there's no reason to give screentime, a name, and a reasonably noteworthy VA to some random servant girl instead of showing Demikas's wife (or more likely future wife depending on when the flashback took place).

[Kafriel]

Welp, Luseat is a bloody cheat! The shadow vanguards were pretty weak this time around though...it was earlier stated that they are strong enough to require attention and Shiroe just one-shotted them with basic skills o_0

Anyway, amazing episode, zoning bosses is unbelievably difficult due to their size and having to calculate distances in a low-light cave should have made that even harder. For a raid with 3 bosses, they sure have a lot of HP, taking so much time for one of them really lowers their odds of victory...but the good ol' raiders keep trying, coz they're all game addicts, yay

Looking forward to the last boss, kinda expecting it to be a no-contest area though since there's only Shiroe around.

[ronelm2000]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Welp, Luseat is a bloody cheat! The shadow vanguards were pretty weak this time around though...it was earlier stated that they are strong enough to require attention and Shiroe just one-shotted them with basic skills o_0

Anyway, amazing episode, zoning bosses is unbelievably difficult due to their size and having to calculate distances in a low-light cave should have made that even harder. For a raid with 3 bosses, they sure have a lot of HP, taking so much time for one of them really lowers their odds of victory...but the good ol' raiders keep trying, coz they're all game addicts, yay

Looking forward to the last boss, kinda expecting it to be a no-contest area though since there's only Shiroe around.

Maybe the HP of the minions is dependent on the hit on the boss?

[Kafriel]

Well, Luseat was shown stabbing himself, so that's one of his basic attacks per minion he spawns - should be around 3-4k HP, based on what we've seen in the show so far. The rest of the vanguards can be just as weak as the first one's attack, but iunno, I saw them as elite mobs a couple episodes ago.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Well, Luseat was shown stabbing himself, so that's one of his basic attacks per minion he spawns - should be around 3-4k HP, based on what we've seen in the show so far. The rest of the vanguards can be just as weak as the first one's attack, but iunno, I saw them as elite mobs a couple episodes ago.

They all were running at high speed, and Shiroe was blasting them with stun/bind spells. They stop in their tracks, and instantly fall behind. Which makes it look to us with our overhead, following Demikas camera that they've been one shot rather than stopped in place.

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by Strikefreedom117

because i havent read the LN, how is the girl in DemiDemi flashback his wife? i thought it was just the maid who gave no fucks how strong he was.

im missing something important now and im pissed

The light novel went out of its way to say that she's his wife. He also says that he didn't see any sex appeal in her and that she was as thin as chicken ribs, so I think it implies that he didn't marry her out of love but rather to show that he's changed.

[Ickarium]

See, I interpreted that to be him being a male tsundere as he just cannot deal with his feelings.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Welp, Luseat is a bloody cheat! The shadow vanguards were pretty weak this time around though...it was earlier stated that they are strong enough to require attention and Shiroe just one-shotted them with basic skills o_0

Was re-watching the episode and took a closer look at this scene. The truth is that Shiroe had not taken down any of the Shadow Vanguards. The ones that looked as if they were one-shot by Shiroe were actually just knocked away.

Nice that the animation team remembered about how weak Enchanters are offensively and added in this little detail =3

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by Mubyoshi

I've noticed Tetora uses boku instead of watashi, might indeed be a trap lol.

That has probably to do with the fact she claims to be an idol. Female Japanese singers often use "boku" when singing because it's easier to fit in the lyrics than the longer "watashi". She probably thinks using boku is cool and it's another way to highlight her try-hard idol persona.

Although if she was a trap, that would be pretty hilarious.