Log Horizon S2 - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by kache

Next level collaboration between adventurers and landers!

If the Round Table doesn't start training People of the Land to defend themselves, I'll be disappointed. I would hope the adventurers offered to train the landers in return for pressuring Lenessia to turn off the defenses.

[Yan3242]

Next episode seems about motivational speech LOTR style, hope we get some action

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

If the Round Table doesn't start training People of the Land to defend themselves, I'll be disappointed. I would hope the adventurers offered to train the landers in return for pressuring Lenessia to turn off the defenses.

It looked to me more like Lenessia pressured herself. The Adventurers respected how important a decision it was, and that they didn't have the right to make it for her. They requested that she do it, because they believed it was important to complete the mission, however they also told her that they would not hold it against her even if she refused.

[NeonZ]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

I don't understand how the same studio that screwed up Lenessia's face so horribly last episode is capable of doing this here.

To be fair, Lenessia's problem is the new character designer himself, who gave her smaller eyes for some reason. It's not just a matter of animation quality, her new design itself is pretty bad.

[Definitegj]

Since rules no longer have to be strictly followed, can't they just sneaked pass the raid boss and enter the treasure rooms? Bring some explosive made from the production guild.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Definitegj

Since rules no longer have to be strictly followed, can't they just sneaked pass the raid boss and enter the treasure rooms? Bring some explosive made from the production guild.

It's not as if every game-like element has simply disappeared. Right now they don't know what rules can be broken and what ones cannot. Nor do they know in what ways they can be broken, which is undoubtedly important. Shiroe could (effectively) turn Rudy into an Adventurer, but he had to do it in a very specific fashion in order for it to work. Akatsuki spent several episodes knowing that the Teachings/overskills existed, but still was unable to use them until she performed exactly the right actions. Simply knowing that you can break the rules doesn't mean that you necessarily know how to do so.

Putting that aside, they simply don't know where the room they're looking for is. It may not even be findable in an ordinary sense until the bosses have been defeated.

[FRS]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

Yes, but you see, each of these Raid bosses have been balanced to fight a 24-man Raid party. 3 Raid Bosses would require a measly 72 Adventurers. If Raid bosses were to attack the now defenseless Akiba, they wouldn't survive long considering there's probably way more than just 72 adventurers who are lvl 90+ in Akiba. Hell, even if it's just 100 players, those few extra people would make a world of difference, not to mention, in raids you usually fight bosses in confined places, and fighting them in an open environment would make it that much easier as well.

As Random Wanderer sheer numbers is no sure way to take down a boss, especially when you have boss like the Serial Killer that have bonus based on the numbers of adventurers near them.

[kukuru]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

If the Round Table doesn't start training People of the Land to defend themselves, I'll be disappointed. I would hope the adventurers offered to train the landers in return for pressuring Lenessia to turn off the defenses.

All landers have a reduce XP gain rate. You can't really train landers especially when death is perma death.

This was shown when Rudy became an Adventurer. He got increased XP gain rate trait.

I doubt a lander can grind to level90 much less en mass.

Ancient level NPCs come pre-patch as high level but probably not others.

If anything increasing battle readiness would be to make all adventurer grind their levels instead of landers.

An average fighting force of lvl70 could easily be achieved in a short time and most likely repel anything in the overworld at this point.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

A single raid-boss can also wipe 24-man raiding parties, not just once, but over and over. 24 isn't the "you're guaranteed to beat it with this" number, it's the "you need at least this many to have a chance of challenging it" number. Bosses can use brutally unfair status-effects as well, and instant-kill attacks. A surprise attack against the city could kill far more than just a raiding party's worth of people, especially if they aren't prepared and don't know the boss's capabilities. Worse, it could kill some of the People of the Land, who would truly die. This isn't something to brush off. And if the monsters are thinking now, planning, coordinating... things could be very bad.

That is stupidly one sided cheerleading. How do you know how Raid bosses AI work, and how they keep themselves fully powered, etc. The lore has all been skewered.

A dozen raid boss running into akihabara would not only find themselves facing massive legion raid level parties with massive AoE status buffs and rotation CDs, but also guerrilla warfare by zoninng into housing(How nice i can reset my CDs lalala), and private areas, or any number of tricks we have used as MMO gamers over the years.

Heck given lore, can Raid bosses even survive outside of their raid dungeons. What powers are feeding them. The guardian was getting fed by the city power. How does each raid boss get it's power/rules/etc.

And if you really want to get nasty, adventures aka us, are way above and beyond the intelligence of a Elder Tales, as straight out said multiple times.

We can pull out infinite amounts of "cheating" tactics many many times more clever then Elder Tales. *watch it next week! The author totally copped out in classic cheats*

I can go in with 24 defender rotation on invincible wall, follow by legion raid DPS-support, then pull back with another wall of defender on invincible rotation, etc.

Heck with so many adventurers...I can do a time honor cheat with summoner pet sacs! We have abused this to "has to be patched" scenerio in so many MMOs, I bet it's a sure fire initial strat in Elder tales that has no GMs.

[Ickarium]

Originally Posted by FRS

As Random Wanderer sheer numbers is no sure way to take down a boss, especially when you have boss like the Serial Killer that have bonus based on the numbers of adventurers near them.

Issue is, in MMO that sort of bonus is fairly rare. Even more often, they have mechanics based on their -location-, so a lot of bosses would actually be nerfed attacking a city. Frankly, I think more MMO bosses have location-based mechanics than 'boosted by adventurer' mechanics.

I'm pretty sure unless every raid boss in the world or a great majority got together, the city'd be safe. The poor Landers outside the city or the ones hit before the adventurers got there, that's another story.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by kukuru

That is stupidly one sided cheerleading. How do you know how Raid bosses AI work, and how they keep themselves fully powered, etc. The lore has all been skewered.

A dozen raid boss running into akihabara would not only find themselves facing massive legion raid level parties with massive AoE status buffs and rotation CDs, but also guerrilla warfare by zoninng into housing(How nice i can reset my CDs lalala), and private areas, or any number of tricks we have used as MMO gamers over the years.

Heck given lore, can Raid bosses even survive outside of their raid dungeons. What powers are feeding them. The guardian was getting fed by the city power. How does each raid boss get it's power/rules/etc.

And if you really want to get nasty, adventures aka us, are way above and beyond the intelligence of a Elder Tales, as straight out said multiple times.

We can pull out infinite amounts of "cheating" tactics many many times more clever then Elder Tales. *watch it next week! The author totally copped out in classic cheats*

I can go in with 24 defender rotation on invincible wall, follow by legion raid DPS-support, then pull back with another wall of defender on invincible rotation, etc.

Heck with so many adventurers...I can do a time honor cheat with summoner pet sacs! We have abused this to "has to be patched" scenerio in so many MMOs, I bet it's a sure fire initial strat in Elder tales that has no GMs.

You seem to have missed my point. Clever tactics pulled against a boss require you to know it was coming before it attacks. That's why I said "a surprise attack against the city." Given the current level of organization of Akiba's Adventurers, a boss could get quite far into the city before a prepared group managed to confront it, meaning that a lot of people would die before it was stopped.

[Craxuan]

Actually, Akiba and the two (I think) other strong powers in Log Horizon are the only forces with the strength to stop a surprise attack from the raid bosses. Massive losses are expected, and even those with their magical barriers still up are going to get a nasty surprise if some of the raid bosses apparently have skills that let them just pass through them without a hitch or worse, absorb it as their own power. Heck, it would be a complete annihilation if that happens.

Like who knows, maybe Akiba was lucky to have stopped their magical barriers. Whatever's powering the city is still there and won't be lost to the enemy, and even the mechanism itself is still intact even though it's such a huge system that restarting it would take decades.

As for Landers becoming Adventurers, I personally see it as a curse. For Landers, to become an Adventurer is to become more or less than human, and no matter which side it leans he is no longer human. It's like he has willingly turned into an alien and renounced his identity as a human on Earth.

Can you imagine what will happen when the Adventurers found a way to go home? And what if they can never go back to Log Horizon? He will be the only person left in the world who doesn't belong anywhere, probably doesn't age and can't even die (because you get resurrected), and is all too likely doomed for a life of solitude way beyond what a human can stand.

[Ickarium]

Honestly, while I see your point, I don't entirely agree. The city has 15k adventurers. I'd guestimate that at least 10% of that are max level or nearso, so 1.5k maybe. Drop that further for those not available, but nevertheless. Numbers -matter-. Remember, they were doing patrols in Season 1 during the PK stuff, I doubt they dropped them, and it'd be even more important post-circle. Even if only 50-100 adventurers are hitting a raid boss, all that DPS /adds up/. Especially as there are no annoying 'Only 24 and you are in a small space' rules.

I think there'd be damage, but the main danger would be Landers getting hit beforehand, more than anything else.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

You seem to have missed my point. Clever tactics pulled against a boss require you to know it was coming before it attacks. That's why I said "a surprise attack against the city." Given the current level of organization of Akiba's Adventurers, a boss could get quite far into the city before a prepared group managed to confront it, meaning that a lot of people would die before it was stopped.

While I dont doubt the ability for a raid boss, in all their power, to surprise the city with an unexpected assault, I think it's very unlikely. The outskirts of the city and beyond are crawling with both high and low level adventurers trying to earn gold/make a living. I know not all raid level bosses are gigantic in size, like the ones Shiroe is fighting, but I seriously doubt the huge ones could get anywhere near the city without being spotted by a random group out grinding/etc.

Smaller, human size bosses would have a better chance, and even then, they would need to have enough intelligence to either sneak through unnoticed, or to casually walk into the city and then start wreaking havoc. Because even a human shaped/sized raid boss wouldnt be able to surprise them if he just starts killing everything in his path as he approaches.

All I'm saying is that, while it's possible to surprise Akiba, unless the enemy has the ability to simply teleport right in, I dont see it happening.

[Yan3242]

Lets hope raid boss doesnt get level up or else thing really get ugly if the boss keep spawn killing those adventures

[Hmm....]

I think many people here are thinking this too much from adventurer perspective thus only concern with our own(adventurers) well being.
Any adventurer casualty can be bruised off as a minor forgetfulness after all. The real casualty lies among landers.



It's akin to "the return of goblln king" event. While the goblin army itself is nowhere near a threat to 15k Akiba adventurers, it is a terror for landers. And they are just goblins. Even if we assume that all noble cities have their own magic barrier to protect themselves, all surrounding fields and villages will be burnt to ground, the city sieged and populace starving. In this case, unlike goblin problem where a few dozens adventurers can grind their way through it, a single raid boss can and will grind them in return. Imagine Marielle and Naotsugu parties facing a raid boss instead of goblin raiding party at Zanleaf. It is the end, the village gone, all of them returned to Akiba (well everyone except Rudy ). There is no stopping it. Krusty's legion raid won't make it in time.

Fortunately, I doubt a raid boss will specifically target or lay a siege on a city. If raid bosses start roaming the land. they will be more like a natural disaster. A force of nature that roam around aimlessly (think Tornado or Gozilla). That is already disastrous enough IMO. Akiba city is an adventurer city. It's economy relies on trading with adventurers. The impact may be minimal. But other lander city ? Things won't be pretty. They can't have a raid boss roaming around vicinity ravaging field and village along the way. They will need to deal with it, with adventurers, a capable raid at that. Can Akiba possibly respond to all call from just Eastal settlements alone ? Or will they leave them to their fate ? How long will it take for them to prepare the raid and travel to the scene ? days ? weeks ? It is true that on the field there is no limited space nor limited number of participated adventurer but unlike proper raid where adventurers can respawn in front of the instance, if they die on a field they will return to last major city they visited. Zanleaf village, for example, is a proper settlement. Yet, it has no valid spawn point. Reinforcement or even 2nd attempt would be very hard. I don't think zerg bump rush strategy work here. How many people they need to sent for such operaton ? how many tries they need to defeat the boss ? How long it take to accomplish all that, with all the travelling ? How much damage the boss does during that time ? Even Shiroe and elite raiders from silversword died repeatly to every single raid boss they encountered. They spent like a month and only defeated 2 bosses (may be more behind the scene). That was with proper preparation, supplies, members and spawn point. This situation is pretty grim when you think about it.



There is also a possible Minami invasion. I saw people discussed it a few episodes ago and they also bruised it off as some meaningless pvp. That is the case only if Minami is stupid(they aren't) and only target adventurers. It's already a thing in today RL MMO to target/kill/camp key NPC just to troll other faction. Try this in current Elder Tale and you should see how disastrous it will be to Akiba's functionality as a city. If minami is smart they should also realize that sending an army to confront Akiba directly would be less effective than sending some individual blending into population and start some serial killing just like what happen earlier but with lander victim. It'll be a pain in the ass if not impossible to deal with. With or without magic barrier. I believe Shiroe realize it and this is one of the reason he sent Akatsuki as Lenezia's escort in the first place.

However, I personally don't think Minami will do it though. I doubt they will go that far. I still see Minami not as a villian but a competitor, a rival. Competition is healthy to an advancement as a whole.... adventurer kind. I believe Shiroe also understand this. That's why he refuse to join force with Nureha. He said he can offer more as an enemy. Still, Shiroe is always better safe than sorry. If something ever happen in the future and Minami resort to this....well I hope they don't

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by Hmm....

There is also a possible Minami invasion. I saw people discussed it a few episodes ago and they also bruised it off as some meaningless pvp. That is the case only if Minami is stupid(they aren't) and only target adventurers. It's already a thing in today RL MMO to target/kill/camp key NPC just to troll other faction. Try this in current Elder Tale and you should see how disastrous it will be to Akiba's functionality as a city. If minami is smart they should also realize that sending an army to confront Akiba directly would be less effective than sending some individual blending into population and start some serial killing just like what happen earlier but with lander victim. It'll be a pain in the ass if not impossible to deal with. With or without magic barrier. I believe Shiroe realize it and this is one of the reason he sent Akatsuki as Lenezia's escort in the first place.

However, I personally don't think Minami will do it though. I doubt they will go that far. I still see Minami not as a villian but a competitor, a rival. Competition is healthy to an advancement as a whole.... adventurer kind. I believe Shiroe also understand this. That's why he refuse to join force with Nureha. He said he can offer more as an enemy. Still, Shiroe is always better safe than sorry. If something ever happen in the future and Minami resort to this....well I hope they don't

There's also the possibility of Minami allying with the Westlande Empire, which might want to re-conquer the lands that it had once held.

[kukuru]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

You seem to have missed my point. Clever tactics pulled against a boss require you to know it was coming before it attacks. That's why I said "a surprise attack against the city." Given the current level of organization of Akiba's Adventurers, a boss could get quite far into the city before a prepared group managed to confront it, meaning that a lot of people would die before it was stopped.

You missed the part in shrioe's raid. Raid bosses and monsters in general still follow reskin rule.

Aka mechanics are still re-hashed and re implemented with lore, etc.

Adventures aka us, are quite clever, and is by most respects superior still to Elder tale former NPCs.

Maybe long long term it will changed, but in any reasonable respect, all existing patterns, tactics and cheats work in Elder Tales. And there's no GM or emergency maintenance to stop adventurers all the same.

Experience raiders and even not so experience adventures are nothing to sneeze at in clearing trials. We are after all 3(?) generation gamers that regularly do "day 1" clears.

While not all are Shrioe level in dissembling, boss mechanics aren't that evolved enough where Adventurers are caught flatfooted.

Until A raid boss(or lander) can retain memories like adventurers through death, and evolve pass standard "reskin" mechanics. It would take very short time to take one down.

Originally Posted by Hmm....

There is also a possible Minami invasion. I saw people discussed it a few episodes ago and they also bruised it off as some meaningless pvp. That is the case only if Minami is stupid(they aren't) and only target adventurers. It's already a thing in today RL MMO to target/kill/camp key NPC just to troll other faction. Try this in current Elder Tale and you should see how disastrous it will be to Akiba's functionality as a city. If minami is smart they should also realize that sending an army to confront Akiba directly would be less effective than sending some individual blending into population and start some serial killing just like what happen earlier but with lander victim. It'll be a pain in the ass if not impossible to deal with. With or without magic barrier. I believe Shiroe realize it and this is one of the reason he sent Akatsuki as Lenezia's escort in the first place.

Depends on Drops. World bosses is not a new thing in MMO. We had them since the early early days of MMO. Whether a group will hunt them or not will depend on their loot.

If Elder Tales retains a "MMO" balance. Any World boss that spawns anywhere, will be quickly spawn camped and murdered within a inch of it's life within hours.

Not going into a long extensive dungeon to get phantasmal drops! Sign me UP!

It won't be poor Adventures, or even poor landers, it will be poor Raid Boss.


Maybe people haven't played as many MMOs these days, heh

[Hmm....]

Originally Posted by kukuru

If Elder Tales retains a "MMO" balance. Any World boss that spawns anywhere, will be quickly spawn camped and murdered within a inch of it's life within hours.

Last episode clearly show that Elder tale no longer retains any "balance" whatsoever. It never does ever since the apocalypse with people breaking rules left and right. New crafting method, Over skill, Favor text effect, Royal guard goes on rampage and now raid bosses leaving their area to help each other out. This is no longer a game. Raids & bosses are no longer designed to be beaten.

Originally Posted by kukuru

Depends on Drops. World bosses is not a new thing in MMO. We had them since the early early days of MMO. Whether a group will hunt them or not will depend on their loot.

Yes, world boss is nothing new in MMO. So does the return of goblin king event. A regular event that happen every month back when Elder Tale was still a game. Look at how it translate into Elder tale world post apocalypse. Krusty + Isacc + 1k Akiba army is still unable to finish goblin king off even now. It already took them months and it suppose to be low level raid that everyone can do. The logistic behind all this is also huge. If you underestimate it, you can easily end up like Silver Sword, going broke with most members retired.

Originally Posted by kukuru

Until A raid boss(or lander) can retain memories like adventurers through death, and evolve pass standard "reskin" mechanics. It would take very short time to take one down.

Yet, Shiroe&co still spent weeks and who know how many attempt to defeat these so called "reskin" bosses. And that was in proper raid zone with proper respawn point. Now imagine these reskin bosses roam outside where Shiroe's group has no "front of raid" to respawn on. Any death will result in respawn back in Sususkino which they spent like a week traveling from. 10 Attempts that could usually be done in one night back when ET was a game would easily turn in to months of traveling back and forth before one could figure out how to kill said boss. If there is any town along boss path, it would be long gone.

[Craxuan]

Actually regarding the raid boss, that's not true. It is entirely possible to set an algorithm where, if Raid Boss A's health drops below a certain %, then the other nearby Raid Bosses will also arrive to assist Raid Boss A. While I haven't played nearly enough MMORPG to make a judgment, I can't believe no one has ever figured out something like that and implemented it in our games.

[Ickarium]

Note that they actually say they can kill off the goblins easily. They -choose not to- because if they simply shatter them, the goblins will go running around and kill the Landers.

The Adventurers are explicitly doing a maneuver to group them all together and annihilate them en masse, rather than shattering them.

Yes, the current situation -is- dangerous, but I think people are being a bit overly deprecating of the Adventurer abilities.