Log Horizon S2 - Episode 3 Discussion / Poll

[Klashikari]

Real world time. He is speaking from experience of game ET, as it is the first time he is doing a large scale raid in "real" ET.

[kukuru]

That is probably much faster then something you can gestimate.

They lack the tools of a modern MMO raid world..

The first and most important is Video recording. Every raider uses it to analyses and break down who did what, what went wrong, and what the enemy does at what hp.

Silver sword also lacks the ability to change formation or change equipment(in excess). They have 2 tanks, that's it. If a fight required 3 tanks, well shit, gotta live with it.

Finally playing from a 1st person perspective, it is even more harder without video playback, because no only do you not know what's coming up, even if you do, you can't see it, or time it.

If I were stuffed into elder tales, I would give up raiding too. The amount of work and deaths of raiding new content is crazy difficult to the point of, let's just go farm something.

The biggest problem Silver Sword is, they're on a deadline, which means you can't brute force it. Many complicated strategy can be swapped for more simplier ones with brute force methods...if you can get the requirements for it.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Nah man, just git gud

[FRS]

That was another nice episode for me, it gaved explanations on how raids works for peoples that dont play MMORPG while giving players for once a fidele representation of a raiding guild.

As usual it's the little details that make me smile: like the salamender used as a firepit.

[RedKey]

The explanation about raids and raid bosses was pretty accurate and realistic, love it. It really shows the author did his research (and played his fair share of MMOs).

I think one month is actually pretty fast considering their situation - going in blind from a first-person perspective, with need for food and other provisions, having to learn the fights by observing and assessing while minimizing losses (and thus memory loss). Raiders out there, think of the hardest raid boss you fought and imagine fighting it not having any sort of guide or tip from (can't stress this enough) a first-person perspective, not a bird's eye one that shows what's happening all around you, and without nifty "ARMAGEDDON IN 5 SECS" alerts showing up on your screen. That doesn't sound pretty, huh? (though I'd really like to experience it once w)

I take it the next bad guy showing up in Akiba will be a Lander?

[Nvis]

Newfound respect for William. Before in S1, I thought he was an ass.

Tetra makes this show so much more enjoyable.

[Kamui04]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

it make me remember FFXI AV boss
(Final fantasy XI Absolute Virtue boss)

he destroy every ls(guild) that dare to challenge him,
in the end, top guild gather together to challenge him
and wasted more the 24 real life hour to try to kill him and failed

not failed and try again but fighting for 24h straight

in the end, game developer nerf the boss and make fight length just 2h, if you failed to kill him then the fight will end.
also, they told people how to kill him

You're mixing up Absolute Virtue with Pandemonium Warden

AV pretty much everyone gave up trying it, because each time they found a way to kill it SE came and patched it, arguing that it wasn't the intended way. They showed a video with the developers killing it, but most people agree that they were cheating and doing stuff that wasn't possible...

The 24hr thing was with PW, which was even featured prominently on the news since people fought it for more than 24hr straight, some getting fatigued and sick. Which lead to SE imposing a 2 hrs time limit for all bosses of that kind.

[M.A.D]

Is it just me or Demiqas seems like a tsundere in this episode? In fact, if this were a generic harem anime we would be seeing a loli ojousama with twintails acting exactly like that in Demiqa's place.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by Kamui04

You're mixing up Absolute Virtue with Pandemonium Warden

AV pretty much everyone gave up trying it, because each time they found a way to kill it SE came and patched it, arguing that it wasn't the intended way. They showed a video with the developers killing it, but most people agree that they were cheating and doing stuff that wasn't possible...

The 24hr thing was with PW, which was even featured prominently on the news since people fought it for more than 24hr straight, some getting fatigued and sick. Which lead to SE imposing a 2 hrs time limit for all bosses of that kind.

my bad, AV fight was more than 30hr and not just 24hr

and it's normal to patch him since people just used hidden wall to kill him
(he can't move past cretin area so people stay there and nuke him )

[BigFire]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

They killed two bosses and Shiroe said there were probably around four more.

In WoW, Firelands had seven bosses and Siege of Orgrimmar had 14.

Time-wise, first kill of Firelands was 20 days later, and they had some time on the PTR to learn the fights a bit.

So yeah, raids are still that big. Not exactly the same, as there are systemic differences, but still.

Shiroe's raid have one advantage over real life raiding. No real life. How many times does a raid have to be cancelled because the main tank have to study for final examination? Or does the lead healer have to prepare for her daughter's birthday? Here, they raid, and raid and raid. This IS their real life. Albeit, that can wear off the less dedicated, and as in this episode show, a lot is riding on William's shoulder. There are 20 people in his guild that's literally putting their life in his hands.

[Side-streetdog]

1 month actually was pretty short for first-time killing boss.
Unless you have plenty people to be choosen and willing for raid hunt.
In my case quite terrible since large scale boss is something player doesn't much interested in my country.
Even we encounter boss and have plan to defeat him, it not easy to find player with right class for the raid.
Luckily I'm healer and raid leader were tank so atleast we got some key classes.
Since most player in my country choose to play dps not tank or support role.

With that problem some bosses that need 100+ people, take a years before first defeated.

But lesser boss that can be defeat with around 20 people quite easy since we already have team, some boss were defeated in first day of new patch.

So I think Shiroe and other did a pretty good job for first time in this new dungeon and bosses with many disavantages.

[aohige]

They also have disadvantage that this world is far bigger than what we're used to in MMOs.
They kinda skipped over it, but it took days just to travel to the raid dungeon.

[Ickarium]

There were times in the past when bosses took a bit more time - but this is because the game developers kind of stacked the deck. There was a time when in WoW for instance, if they didn't want you to say get past Boss X yet because they weren't done, they simply made the Boss unkillable. They don't do that anymore. I won't get into the Cthun bug.

Also note this is talking about 'world class' raiders. Normal players can take months to finish a raid.

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by aohige

They also have disadvantage that this world is far bigger than what we're used to in MMOs.
They kinda skipped over it, but it took days just to travel to the raid dungeon.

Dinkuron did mention that accessing some raids had become difficult after the Catastrophe, although the anime did skip over the part where it took days to get there. They probably tried implying it with the camp scene from last episode.

[kukuru]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

Dinkuron did mention that accessing some raids had become difficult after the Catastrophe, although the anime did skip over the part where it took days to get there. They probably tried implying it with the camp scene from last episode.

supply is the worse thing. There's no easy AH and warps. Taking a week to travel back to town, even sending people with griffon...is very time consuming.

When taking on raids for the first time, expensive pots/ammo/buffs are used. Sometimes you can skip it on dry runs, but then when do you consider a dry run to a real clear scenario, in this case.

Silver sword is elite but they are also bad in this respect. They can't change out and rotate a proper supply line, that differs from MMO raiding, to real world logistics.

[aohige]

If this was DDD, Krusty would have had a support team set up supply chains that keeps continuous flow of stock to the raiding team.

[Hmm....]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

Dinkuron did mention that accessing some raids had become difficult after the Catastrophe, although the anime did skip over the part where it took days to get there. They probably tried implying it with the camp scene from last episode.

There is also a scene where Naotsugu and Tetra complain why they don't fly there. Shiroe had to explain that not all members have flying mount and William want to use this time to get accustom to new raid members & formation. So yea the journey do take quite awhile.

Originally Posted by aohige

If this was DDD, Krusty would have had a support team set up supply chains that keeps continuous flow of stock to the raiding team.

I think that is exactly why DDD is still messing around with Goblin raid (lvl30 ? lvl50 ?) They are not ready yet. Silver sword goes we aren't a wimp. We will aim for a big thing. Classic error.

[Spica]

Is falling from the cliff due to the sheer force of the boss's wings flapping a normal happening?

At least I don't remember any raid having a mechanic like that. This is because "reality' right?

[kukuru]

Originally Posted by Hmm....

I think that is exactly why DDD is still messing around with Goblin raid (lvl30 ? lvl50 ?) They are not ready yet. Silver sword goes we aren't a wimp. We will aim for a big thing. Classic error.

Well it's been mentioned before, but it'll happen over and over. Silver Sword people...are idiots... They just want to raid and win the impossible. That's probably why they lost so many members. Logistics, politics, negotiations, etc... pff who cares about that stuff. Get in there.

If William had more leadership qualities of running a guild instead of running a raid, then they wouldn't be in such a bad state.

It's also why Shiroe partly choose them. They are easy to convince, lots of skill and heart, and no one really cares what they do because they assume it's bunch of battle otakus blowing smoke.

The right man(guild) for the right job sometimes...where else do find 20 people to spend a month or two inside a death trap, and wasting their life savings.

[Hmm....]

Originally Posted by dithar

Is falling from the cliff due to the sheer force of the boss's wings flapping a normal happening?

At least I don't remember any raid having a mechanic like that. This is because "reality' right?

There are many raid boss with knock back ability and stage with OB mechanic. They are not exactly common but they are out there.

The one I can remember out of top of my head is this one.
Al'akir of Throne of Four Winds in WoW catalysm

PS. Imagine going in this blind. Have to figure out all the abilities one by one yourself without any outside source. Then formulate the plan that actually work. Lastly, make sure you can execute it perfectly without any one of twenty people messing up. Human error is the most fearsome thing