F/SN UBW TV - Episode 12 Spoiler Discussion / Poll [FIRST HALF FINALE]

[GDB]

The creator and writer of the FSN visual novel.

*edit*

Gah, didn't see there wasn't another page. Ninja'd!

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by GDB

What would tracing swords do? Saber and Rin just got finished explaining that trying to destroy the skeletons just increases their numbers, Fantasia style. He's too weak right now to be of any help against Caster herself, so the only thing he'd be able to fight are them. And it certainly wouldn't make the magic thread around Taiga's throat any less there. So what would tracing have done?

Honestly? I don't have clue what it would do. But there is several things Shiro could TRY at least and most of these (including direct suicide) are far better idea than giving caster powerful easily misused weapon... from idealistic point of view of course.

[MrTerrorist]

That was a great episode.
I enjoy the date between Shiro, Rin and Saber.
That CG when Caster confronts them.
And Kotomine being a badass.
And what a cliffhanger.
I didn't expect to hear THIS ILLUSION by LiSA. I haven't heard this song since 2006 FSN anime.
Can't wait for April for season 2 of UBW anime.
10 out of 10!

[Moekou]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Honestly? I don't have clue what it would do. But there is several things Shiro could TRY at least and most of these (including direct suicide) are far better idea than giving caster powerful easily misused weapon... from idealistic point of view of course.

But the risk of Taiga dying would be too great. I guess it would have helped if Taiga got a route or more serious scenes so less people see her as an expendable comic relief, but she's pretty much Shirou's mother figure and the only family he has left, who helped raise him after Kiritsugu died. And as she had a huge crush on Kiritsugu who in turn appreciated her because she reminded him of his childhood friend Shirley, had Kiritsugu lived she may have even officially become Shirou's mother one day. She's one of the most important people in Shirou's world that he needs to protect.

[Rising Dragon]

Guys, unless I'm mistaken, in this particular case it's not that he values her life more than others--I mean, yeah, he cares about her, that's not in question--but for Shirou, the loss of any life is unacceptable when he can do something to prevent it. Be it Taiga's life or a strangers, that's just how he thinks.

His valuing certain people over others is something that happens in Heaven's Feel, IIRC, as part of his breaking away from his ideals in order to save Sakura.

[GDB]

He still places more value on those close to him, even outside HF. It just doesn't conflict with his ideals until then. At least not directly.

[MCAL]

The wait for April is going to brutal isn't it? Besides some dodgy CG and an odd adaption choice, this was as good as a Fate episode could be.

Between the three hour long episodes and the 90 minutes of extra content the first cour was technically 20 episodes long. Aren't we Fate fans lucky?

[ShadowSamurai365]

I sort of got a question for those who read a lot of comments on other sites (I'm still deciding whether I should watch this episode): what was the basic reaction of the audiences when the "hostage" situation kicked in?

[Pegasai]

Great episode.

For the most part, I thought Shirou in the UBW route was much more
tolerable/competent than Shirou in the Fate route and infinitely more so than in the god-awful Deen adaptation. But this episode reminded me of the one time I got really annoyed with Shirou in the UBW route.

Shirou essentially wrapped Saber in a gift package to Caster--first by offering to give his last Command Seal and second by using that Command Seal to paralyze Saber in the middle of a battle. The first option was essentially abandoning Saber (remember, Shirou himself refused to give his Command Seals to Rin earlier in the route in order to "not betray Saber"). And the second option was arguably even worse as it could have even killed Saber had Caster been using a fatal weapon.

And then he has the gall to worry about Saber. SMH.

I get that he was trying to save everyone, but really...what does handing over his Command Seal and freezing Saber in the middle of battle accomplish anyway? He was f***ed once Fujimura became a hostage but went out of his way to make it even worse.

[Rising Dragon]

The usage of the Command Seal seemed accidental, just like when he used the first one.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The usage of the Command Seal seemed accidental, just like when he used the first one.

Pretty much this.

He really wanted Saber to stop. So the CS accidentally activated.

And well, if he handed Saber to Caster, she wasn't necessary in danger. Caster needed Saber, so she wouldn't kill her. There is still a chance that he or Rin could rescue her. Taiga, on the other hand...

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Pegasai

Shirou essentially wrapped Saber in a gift package to Caster--first by offering to give his last Command Seal and second by using that Command Seal to paralyze Saber in the middle of a battle. The first option was essentially abandoning Saber (remember, Shirou himself refused to give his Command Seals to Rin earlier in the route in order to "not betray Saber"). And the second option was arguably even worse as it could have even killed Saber had Caster been using a fatal weapon.

And then he has the gall to worry about Saber. SMH.

I get that he was trying to save everyone, but really...what does handing over his Command Seal and freezing Saber in the middle of battle accomplish anyway? He was f***ed once Fujimura became a hostage but went out of his way to make it even worse.

Shirou's options essentially boiled down to allow Saber to fall under Caster's control or to allow Taiga to die. Obviously, he was always going to choose the former. The situation with Rin was different, since Rin was only threatening Shirou himself and he doesn't care about himself. Caster was threatening the life of another (and a very important another at that) and she made it clear she didn't intend to kill Saber but rather use her, meaning Shirou could still save her later (which is what will indeed end up happening). But if he didn't acquiesce to Caster's demands, Taiga would die for sure. And if one is given a choice between putting somebody in a dangerous but not hopeless situation and letting somebody else die for certain, I don't think choosing the former is that condemnable.

Shirou basically trusted that Caster would follow through on her word that she would control Saber rather than kill her, as well as that she would let go of Taiga once he gave away his Command Spells. And guess what, he was right, because that's what Caster did. Shirou's judgment of character isn't always the best, but here it actually turns out he was right because Caster really isn't as monstrous as Rin and Archer believed her to be (Kirei himself pointed that out in this episode).

I don't see how Shirou worrying about Saber makes his character or actions more contemptible. Yes, he willingly gave her away, but that doesn't mean he enjoyed doing it. It was just the lesser of evils in a very difficult situation.

As for the Command Spell he ended up using, as Rising Dragon said it probably wasn't intentional, but either way it ended up saving Taiga's life because Caster was going to kill her out of spite with the negotiations having fallen through and Saber attacking her. So basically Shirou ended up saving Taiga at the cost of temporarily giving away Saber, and now that he has he's going to go rescue her (and succeed at it). Doesn't seem that bad to me.

[Kimiko Khan]

while they certainly deviated quite a bit (they at least maintained a skeleton of how the events transpired and the changes to caster's take over of the church are an improvement.) I'm more concerned about caster's attempted goading of shirou. While it may just be her using what little information she obtained from fujii and twisting it to anger him; it gives the impression that shirou knew about the grail war the whole time and knew it was the cause of the big fire that he survived. this makes little sense considering a. he doesnt find out till later in the vn and b. him knowing goes against all his actions up to this.

[DragonKing0117]

It was a great episode. For some of the major points, I was surprised by how good Kirei is. I mean, I know he's a badass fighter from the visual novel and from the bits and pieces I heard about Fate/zero, but hearing or reading about it is one thing, seeing it is another, and it was glorious. Also, the moment the remix of This Illusion started playing I was inwardly crying tears of joys. Screw what everyone else says, I actually enjoy LiSA's music so I had no problems with it at all. Like I said before, this was a gret episode, and a perfect place to end the first cour for the series.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Kimiko Khan

while they certainly deviated quite a bit (they at least maintained a skeleton of how the events transpired and the changes to caster's take over of the church are an improvement.) I'm more concerned about caster's attempted goading of shirou. While it may just be her using what little information she obtained from fujii and twisting it to anger him; it gives the impression that shirou knew about the grail war the whole time and knew it was the cause of the big fire that he survived. this makes little sense considering a. he doesnt find out till later in the vn and b. him knowing goes against all his actions up to this.

Didn't Kirei flat out tell him that the fire was caused by the last Grail War in the very beginning? I'm pretty sure the only reason he kept being a master was so something like that would never happen again, or am I wrong?

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Kimiko Khan

while they certainly deviated quite a bit (they at least maintained a skeleton of how the events transpired and the changes to caster's take over of the church are an improvement.) I'm more concerned about caster's attempted goading of shirou. While it may just be her using what little information she obtained from fujii and twisting it to anger him; it gives the impression that shirou knew about the grail war the whole time and knew it was the cause of the big fire that he survived. this makes little sense considering a. he doesnt find out till later in the vn and b. him knowing goes against all his actions up to this.

I believe that in episode 2, Kirei told Shirou about the Grail War being the cause of the fire 10 years ago (or at least had some connections to the great fire 10 years ago).

[The Green One]

Well that's the end of the first half. Cheer up, it'll be April before you know it. We'll see if season 2 lives up to the high bar set by the quality this time. Got to feel bad for poor Saber, being used this way is the ultimate humiliation for a prideful knight like her.

[Kimiko Khan]

it's seems you're right that kirei did tell him of it. However caster is painting this as knowledge passed down from kiritsugu and that kiritsugu had trained him as a mage to fight in the next grail war.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ShadowSamurai365

I believe that in episode 2, Kirei told Shirou about the Grail War being the cause of the fire 10 years ago (or at least had some connections to the great fire 10 years ago).

Kirei heavily implied in that discussion with Shirou in EP2, that "someone" wished for the great fire from the grail.


I still fail to understand how Shirou could be worried that Saber somehow gets taken by Caster in that situation. From what we knew before she used Rule Breaker is that Caster's attacks are useless against Saber, because of Saber's magic resistence... but it seems some people don't care that Shirou does not know that. I don't think Caster would have gained control of Saber just by taking Shirou's command spell(s). Usually Saber would just be "uncontracted". That Caster could force a contract on her after either taking his command spell(s) or using Rule Breaker was possible, but not confirmed until it actually happened.

[Tenzen12]

Command spell are used command servant. Even Shiro knew that much. Even if it wasn't confirmed one don't have to be genius get a hint.

Originally Posted by Amarantine

Shirou's options essentially boiled down to allow Saber to fall under Caster's control or to allow Taiga to die. Obviously, he was always going to choose the former. The situation with Rin was different, since Rin was only threatening Shirou himself and he doesn't care about himself. Caster was threatening the life of another (and a very important another at that) and she made it clear she didn't intend to kill Saber but rather use her, meaning Shirou could still save her later (which is what will indeed end up happening). But if he didn't acquiesce to Caster's demands, Taiga would die for sure. And if one is given a choice between putting somebody in a dangerous but not hopeless situation and letting somebody else die for certain, I don't think choosing the former is that condemnable.

Shirou basically trusted that Caster would follow through on her word that she would control Saber rather than kill her, as well as that she would let go of Taiga once he gave away his Command Spells. And guess what, he was right, because that's what Caster did. Shirou's judgment of character isn't always the best, but here it actually turns out he was right because Caster really isn't as monstrous as Rin and Archer believed her to be (Kirei himself pointed that out in this episode).

I don't see how Shirou worrying about Saber makes his character or actions more contemptible. Yes, he willingly gave her away, but that doesn't mean he enjoyed doing it. It was just the lesser of evils in a very difficult situation.

As for the Command Spell he ended up using, as Rising Dragon said it probably wasn't intentional, but either way it ended up saving Taiga's life because Caster was going to kill her out of spite with the negotiations having fallen through and Saber attacking her. So basically Shirou ended up saving Taiga at the cost of temporarily giving away Saber, and now that he has he's going to go rescue her (and succeed at it). Doesn't seem that bad to me.

...but didn't he tell caster go the hell, just few minutes before. Does that means he doesn't willing cooperate with Caster even if would kill Taiga, but doesn't gave problem offer Saber instead?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

...but didn't he tell caster go the hell, just few minutes before. Does that means he doesn't willing cooperate with Caster even if would kill Taiga, but doesn't gave problem offer Saber instead?

offering Command Spells =/= offering Saber

at least with the information he had at that point.