Mahouka - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[HandofFate]

Originally Posted by Esclair

There are actually 3 issues that are clearly systematically discriminatory, but the course 2 students in the debate for some reason were too stupid to bring up:

1. No magical teachers for the course 2 students
2. Different uniforms
3. Course 2 students cannot be on the student council.

All 3 things other than 3 don't really matter much, despite what so many people on this forum seem to think.

There was like 10-20 pages of debate over the teacher shortage when its such a non-issue. None of the students care that course 2 students don't have teachers. Course 2 students included. Self-study and personal responsibility for their education is the standard.

Uniforms, meh. Might slightly help, but a course 2 student is still a course 2 student, its an empty victory. Feels like they accomplished something, when it doesn't affect anything tangible.

#3 might be something, but its not like there's tons of spots in the first place in the student council.

The whole conclusion of the debate just showed what Tatsuya's been saying and his purpose for questioning Mibu's desires. Its just a bitter mob taking out their anger on others because of their own lack of ability. They don't want to listen to reason, they just want a pat on the head and will jump at anyone or group that feeds their own self-satification. They're just as bad as the couple discriminatory course 1 students we seen. Both sides have their own ignorant qualities.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Mibu thought talking about 1 would be "going too far". Her and her allies seem to grasp that 1 is not that easy a thing to fix, reflecting what some of us were saying during Episode 4 discussions on the general discussion thread (formerly the series thread).

Being impossible to fix (according to the show) actually makes it good point to bring up. Asking for something outrageous then settling for lesser concessions is pretty common in negotiations. It's more likely for them to get #2 and #3 addressed if they bring up #1.

Originally Posted by HandofFate

All 3 things other than 3 don't really matter much, despite what so many people on this forum seem to think.

There was like 10-20 pages of debate over the teacher shortage when its such a non-issue. None of the students care that course 2 students don't have teachers. Course 2 students included. Self-study and personal responsibility for their education is the standard.

Uniforms, meh. Might slightly help, but a course 2 student is still a course 2 student, its an empty victory. Feels like they accomplished something, when it doesn't affect anything tangible.

#3 might be something, but its not like there's tons of spots in the first place in the student council.

The whole conclusion of the debate just showed what Tatsuya's been saying and his purpose for questioning Mibu's desires. Its just a bitter mob taking out their anger on others because of their own lack of ability. They don't want to listen to reason, they just want a pat on the head and will jump at anyone or group that feeds their own self-satification. They're just as bad as the couple discriminatory course 1 students we seen. Both sides have their own ignorant qualities.

It's not about whether or not these issues are significant from the audience's perspective. My gripe is that the course 2 student's don't bring them up when they're given the chance to via the forum, and bring up a different point that has no merit (which is why it was quickly debunked by Mayumi). These are the issues that caused the course 2 students to feel discriminated against in the first place but are conveniently forgotten when they're given a chance to have the student council address them.

[HandofFate]

The thing is that the teacher issue, its not something they care about, as as said, magicians period are short supply, and it funnels down harshly on the number of teachers. It would have been just as easily refuted by Mayumi. The course 2 students nor the student council have the resources or knowledge to change this, since this ends up overhauling the entire magic infrastructure of the entire country/world, not just the school. Its good that the students are realistic enough about that to not bring it up

Uniforms might be the only thing worth talking about, but that's it.

[HandofFate]

As for the episode itself.
I really enjoyed it. Had really good dialogue that I enjoy much about the series.
Strong voice acting too with everyone trying to deal with this issue without it having go public and ruining everyones reputation. So much for that by the end of the episode though.

Looks like we're finally going to get some nice action. Looking forward to the cast showing their stuff next episode.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Esclair

Being impossible to fix (according to the show) actually makes it good point to bring up. Asking for something outrageous then settling for lesser concessions is pretty common in negotiations. It's more likely for them to get #2 and #3 addressed if they bring up #1.

You're probably right, but I can forgive the Course 2 students for simply being poor negotiators. Mibu strikes me as a decent girl with her heart in the right place, but I don't think she's all that smart. I feel a bit sorry for Mibu, because she's getting used by people smarter than she is, and I think she's a reasonably good person who's a bit of a victim in all of this.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

The course 2 students nor the student council have the resources or knowledge to change this, since this ends up overhauling the entire magic infrastructure of the entire country/world, not just the school.

If they are private schools, then it's all about money to appeal the teachers from other schools to their own.

The overall number of teachers stay the same in the country, but the richer schools will have more.

[rladls716]

Discrimination hurts, and it really hurts.

Miyuki, please do not complain everytime Tatsuya gets acquainted with an another female.
And let Tatsuya does his thing that he can do best because it is for his own good and MiyukI, for your own good too.

Shooting guns, and throwing bombs? Why? What went wrong?
I'm going to skip school if I knew that is going to happen.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

The thing is that the teacher issue, its not something they care about, as as said, magicians period are short supply, and it funnels down harshly on the number of teachers. It would have been just as easily refuted by Mayumi. The course 2 students nor the student council have the resources or knowledge to change this, since this ends up overhauling the entire magic infrastructure of the entire country/world, not just the school. Its good that the students are realistic enough about that to not bring it up

Uniforms might be the only thing worth talking about, but that's it.

Mayumi asked them for specific examples where course 2 students are treated in a inferior manner by the school, and those three points were direct answers. It doesn't matter if there's not enough teachers, or if most students self study, or if it's more beneficial to only give teacher resource to blooms. Not having access to teachers is inferior to having access to teachers, no matter how slight.

Having no emblem is inferior to having an emblem. Emblems and special markings are used to designate superiority. Whether it's right or not to separate the 2 uniforms is another topic, but you can't deny that the uniforms of the course 1 students are superior.

Finally, on the topic of the student council requirement. If it was purely based on meritocracy is there a need to ban weeds from applying? The superior blooms would always win anyways without needing any kind of restriction wouldn't they?

So these points should have been brought up by the course 2 student because Mayumi asked for them to bring them up, even if they're unsolvable.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You're probably right, but I can forgive the Course 2 students for simply being poor negotiators. Mibu strikes me as a decent girl with her heart in the right place, but I don't think she's all that smart. I feel a bit sorry for Mibu, because she's getting used by people smarter than she is, and I think she's a reasonably good person who's a bit of a victim in all of this.

The only reason that the course 2 student brought up at the forum was allocation of club funds, which turned out to be unsubstantiated. It'd be kind of strange if they can get so many course 2 students riled up for only this reason...

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by rladls716

Shooting guns, and throwing bombs? Why? What went wrong?
I'm going to skip school if I knew that is going to happen.

They read Marx.

[HandofFate]

Didn't they specifically say that one of the 'sneaky' thing they did was complying with the 'revolutionaries' and letting them have their open forum as they wanted, but was on so short notice, they couldn't properly plan up a proper debate and research though? lol.

[Kenju of the Right]

Originally Posted by GDB

It's already at a point where if you're caught, you're disciplined. How can you police it more? Discipline based on rumors? Thought police?



This one has some potential merit, but at the same time course 2 is course 2 for a reason. It's the same with normal high schools (at least around here when I went to high school). You had various levels of classes based on skill (we had a 1-4 system, with 4 being exceptional, 3 being above average, and so on). You don't mix that, because then you're just hurting the more talented students as a means of trying to be "equal", which will just incur further animosity.



How would this change anything? Everyone knows it happens already; they're part of it.

Basically, what Tatsuya said is 100% correct. Outside of course 1 students having actual teachers and course 2 students just having a curriculum (or however they're taught), the only actual discrimination comes from the students themselves. If it were so easy to fix that, then why is there a rich vs poor in the real world? Or racism? It's not something that you can just make rules for and have it go away.

OBVOUSLY no one said it would be easy
but like I said there should be an attempt at trying to fix it.
Like that bs Tatsuya talks about and in the next few episodes the other students.
basically saying ''deal with it''. Which is the rudest and most bs answer

about the 2nd paragraph, i wasn't referring to skill. I was reffering to anything that lets them work together

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

Didn't they specifically say that one of the 'sneaky' thing they did was complying with the 'revolutionaries' and letting them have their open forum as they wanted, but was on so short notice, they couldn't properly plan up a proper debate and research though? lol.

That'd be true if they brought up the points but be unable to defend them against Mayumi's rebuttals (I'm sure she's well researched on these issues), but they literally only had 1 complaint, which turned out to be a false complaint. You'd think it'd take a bit more than that to get all these course 2 students to rally under REVOLUTION! I mean, the way it went I'd thought this was how they recruited everyone:

Kinoe: Is your club getting enough funding?
Club President: I think so, we got enough to fund our trip to nationals last year.
Kinoe: But did you really? Did you know that the Blooms get to fly in private jets while drinking sake and being surved sushi by the finest chefs?
Club President: WHAT??!! This is OUTRAGEOUS! DOWN WITH THE BLOOMS!
Kinoe: Then join us, comrade! FOR GLORIOUS REVOLUTION!

[HandofFate]

Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right

OBVOUSLY no one said it would be easy
but like I said there should be an attempt at trying to fix it.
Like that bs Tatsuya talks about and in the next few episodes the other students.
basically saying ''deal with it''. Which is the rudest and most bs answer

about the 2nd paragraph, i wasn't referring to skill. I was reffering to anything that lets them work together

Thing is, the course 2 students are "deal with it" too.
Meaning, hey, course 1 students and student council, deal with it for us, and solve everything, because we can't figure it out ourselves either.

Its the entire point of Tatsuya's date questions with Mibu on two separate occasions. What do you want/How do you think it should be fixed? Both times, Mibu was at a lost for answers.

It be one thing if they had detailed and logical demands and ideas to go about it, but they don't. They're just blowing smoke and throwing tantrums,

Mayumi said if they were able to bring forth logical arguments to refute her, she wouldn't mind having these open forums method for future progress, but they couldn't. Its their loss.

[HandofFate]

And also, the reasons why the course 2 students are so ill-prepared and sucked at it, is shown at the end of the episode.

The terrorist organization is manipulating them and fanning the flames, and using the student's inferiority complex like pawns.

[rladls716]

The way some Course 1 students calling Course 2 students "Weeds" and badmouthing them is what this fuss started in the first place.
Where is this respect for each others as equals gone to?

Tatsuya already knows there is no hope for ending this discrimination all along and the way he said the word "unfortunate" is something that all is lost meaning to me.

Miyuki, you do not have to discuss with Tatsuya later about how he got Mibu Sayaka's phone number.

And Mibu Sayaka, just please be happy for the fact that you can use your smartphone.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Esclair

The only reason that the course 2 student brought up at the forum was allocation of club funds, which turned out to be unsubstantiated. It'd be kind of strange if they can get so many course 2 students riled up for only this reason...

They're riled up because they can feel the discrimination. They feel like 2nd class citizens (because they in fact are in this school). They hate this discrimination, and want to fight against it. However, they're not good at pinpointing what precise policies and circumstances are causing (or at least exacerbating) the discrimination. They haven't thought things through that far.

I think this is because they're being whipped up into a frenzy by a foreign entity that does not actually have their best interests at heart.

You ever hear the old saying about Stalin and his useful idiots? It's kind of like that (just for the record, I don't usually agree with the real life political commentary use of this saying, but it still kind of fits here in Mahouka).

The "useful idiots" (including Mibu) are sincere, but they're not that smart, so they're able to be easily lead around by "Stalin". Stalin is intentionally feeding them just enough to rile them up, but not enough to make them actually effective at what they're doing.

Because Stalin doesn't really care about these useful idiots, he just wants them to undermine "America" for him. If these useful idiots actually succeed in their goals, and do so reasonably peacefully, then how does that benefit Stalin? He wants "America" (i.e. the school, and wider Japan) to be fraught with internal divisions, the better for the great Soviet Union.

Do you see what I'm saying here? Remember, these students are being manipulated by a foreign force who's real goal is undermining Japan.

[HandofFate]

Yea, the cause is fine.
Tatsuya is...unique.

But Mayumi and Mari and the top brass do seem sincere in getting everyone to co-exist peacefully. And are willing to work at it step by step.

But this instance and attempt at it was doomed from the start due to the puppetmasters behind the whole thing.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

They're riled up because they can feel the discrimination. They feel like 2nd class citizens (because they in fact are in this school). They hate this discrimination, and want to fight against it. However, they're not good at pinpointing what precise policies and circumstances are causing (or at least exacerbating) the discrimination. They haven't thought things through that far.

I think this is because they're being whipped up into a frenzy by a foreign entity that does not actually have their best interests at heart.

You ever hear the old saying about Stalin and his useful idiots? It's kind of like that (just for the record, I don't usually agree with the real life political commentary use of this saying, but it still kind of fits here in Mahouka).

The "useful idiots" (including Mibu) are sincere, but they're not that smart, so they're able to be easily lead around by "Stalin". Stalin is intentionally feeding them just enough to rile them up, but not enough to make them actually effective at what they're doing.

Because Stalin doesn't really care about these useful idiots, he just wants them to undermine "America" for him. If these useful idiots actually succeed in their goals, and do so reasonably peacefully, then how does that benefit Stalin? He wants "America" (i.e. the school, and wider Japan) to be fraught with internal divisions, the better for the great Soviet Union.

Do you see what I'm saying here? Remember, these students are being manipulated by a foreign force who's real goal is undermining Japan.

I feel like the characters are made to act stupid due to 'plot reasons' and so the story can move onto the action with the terrorists. I'm guessing nobody wants to watch half an episode of people debating the various finer details of the discrimination issue, especially since it doesn't look like Mahouka is the kind of show that would spend the next couple of episodes detailing how the weeds slowly overturned the discriminatory systems that are in place. I'm predicting after they wrap up the terrorists next episode or 2 they're going to completely drop the discrimination storyline. Tatsuya had already voiced his opinion on the whole issue and the forum scene pretty much closed off any venue of continuation. There's no other character to provide an opposing point of view that isn't stupid or 'misguided'. The whole discrimination subplot and it's resolution just feels somewhat contrived to me.

[rladls716]

Mayumi does have a point.
Even though it is magic school, it is still like any other ordinary school.
And why do I have to run around like some extremist just to force other people do not discriminate?
I'm just scaring those people who wants to have fun at school.
It must be solved peacefully and smoothly.

And Tatsuya is already doing things smoothly, so Miyuki just try not freeze those smoothness.

[CatRules]

Originally Posted by Esclair

I'm predicting after they wrap up the terrorists next episode or 2 they're going to completely drop the discrimination storyline. Tatsuya had already voiced his opinion on the whole issue and the forum scene pretty much closed off any venue of continuation. There's no other character to provide an opposing point of view that isn't stupid or 'misguided'. The whole discrimination subplot and it's resolution just feels somewhat contrived to me.

I doubt it. The difference in uniform is too noticeable and it obviously marks class discrimination. It feels unnatural for this to have continued for many years without any change at all.

Currently, I have a theory that there may be more about the bloom/weed conflict later in the series. Right now, I'm believing that someone at governmental level had purposefully manipulated the whole conflict behind the scene with their objectives being creating divisions among mages and weakening magic community. I believe they were using Divide and Conquer principle to control magicians.

Of cause I could be totally wrong but with the way the story(both B/W conflict and the world-building) is right now it might not be completely improbable.

But if that was true it's definitely going disturbingly delicious.
My sadistic side is completely ready for this.