Attack on Titan - Episode 25 (END) Discussion / Poll

[BatouFTW]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

Honesty speak, no matter how Annie is experienced at using her titan form Eren still overwhelmed her. If not for her Harden-skin ability to give her some advantage over Eren, she will be devoured by Eren. Eren's blood lust seem to be the thing that fuel his titan, the more he want to destroy the stronger it become.

I don't agree. She made a big mistake trying to run away rather than finish him off when she had the upper hand. Not just the hardening and skill, her ultra-rapid regeneration is a huge advantage... it's the #1 thing that enabled her to defeat the Levi squad, in fact... they would have found a way around the hardening eventually.

Spoiler:

In fact, Annie would have escaped successfully after all that roaring by Eren if not for Mikasa.

By the way, my new favorite anime line of all time has to be, "Ochite." Take that, bitch!

[DevilHighDxD]

I disagree, Eren's first match with Annie will have a different outcome had he knew she is the female titan and I highly doubt that if she go 1 on 1 with Eren without her harden-skin ability she will win.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by BatouFTW

I don't agree. She made a big mistake trying to run away rather than finish him off when she had the upper hand.

I know I'm nipticking, but I disagree with the part in bold. Finishing him off isn't her objective, she needs to capture him alive and she still does even if she took the risk of killing him the previous episode. And trying to capture Eren when the scouting legion and Mikasa are near is an ever bigger mistake. However I do agree with the fact that Eren is technically no match for Annie.

Originally Posted by kitten320

Eren is nowhere near her level.

Now this is pure exaggeration, you're completely ignoring the fact that he can canonically put up a fight with her which he did in the manga as well, both during the forest scene and the town scene.

Originally Posted by kitten320

Annie takes him out literally in 2 kicks and one punch. First kick destroys his leg, second his head, and a punch frees her from his teeth grab.

This scene also happened in the anime in the exact same way, so what's your point?

Originally Posted by kitten320

He only lands one punch on her after church scene.

And that punch was in there too, in the exact same place as the one in the manga.

Originally Posted by kitten320

Eren was no match for her in manga while here anime team made Annie look weak.

They didn't make Annie look weak at all, they just made Eren crazier and madder. The only thing that changed during that fight is Eren going berserk Evangelion level of batshit mode ... which happened after he got overwhelmed by Annie's fighting skills, the exact same way he got beaten by her in the manga.

[kitten320]

Just because Eren can put up fight does not mean that he is on her level. Annie always won and over powered him in the end.

a) She gets tossed by Eren.

b) Eren crashes her face and eats her leg, in manga he never reached her.

She also uses her skin hardening ability more often here than in manga.


But over all I guess it really isn't that different. Anime team just like last time over dragged it a bit.


EDIT: Looks like subs are out.

[Klashikari]

Color me as "yet another" manga reader not exactly pleased by this episode. Really, I don't see the point for the changes at all either:

-Seeing the titan at the very end of the episode is really not a good idea, because the whole relevation doesn't stop there: having the characters react about this and trying to find out the answer is what makes the revelation powerful and really meaningful.
Having just the face of a titan will just make people wonder how it happened to be there, while in the manga, you are pretty much realizing in horror that the -whole wall- is made of titans and they are ALIVE in there.

-My biggest gripe: another change for Eren's character development. Frankly, the changes made Titan Eren too much akin to Eva 01 going berserk when circumstances are met, despite it arguably didn't happen in the manga, save when he went all out against Annie in the forest.
But the real issue aside of "berserk tendencies" is that it makes Eren even more emotional and unreliable than he is supposed to be. So far, Eren manages to get control over his titan form over time, but here, it just follows the law of "cool factor" without much an actual reason behind that.
In fact, it is exactly because Eren was calm in the manga that he could get a good grip on her so the recon corps could extract Annie before she encases herself with that crystal. Making Eren again changing his mind after seeing Annie's human form is yet again a huge problem: it makes Eren having another "psychologic block" despite it isn't even supposed to be there.


By the way, this episode recycled a LOT of stock animations from previous episodes, to the point they are obvious and not that suitable. The biggest examples of that are Annie running and looking behind her (same used when Levi is about to slash her in the forest) and Levi intervening at the end.

Speaking of Levi, I don't get why they had to involve him once again. The story is pretty clear that Levi is basically unable to fight due to his broken leg/ankle. Even Mikasa was affected that her mistake made humanity losing their best soldier (skipped in the anime, alas), so having Levi appearing out of nowhere is just moronic at best. It will be nonsensical for him not to save the day later in the series, while he -should be- unable to fight at all.


They will have to retcon the end of this season for S2, otherwise they will have huge trouble to explain things later on.

[desrtsku]

^ I think, I have no choice but to ask you people to give an explanation to me in details as why you think a retcon is absolutely necessary ... in the manga thread if too spoilerish, eventually.

Originally Posted by kitten320

Just because Eren can put up fight does not mean that he is on her level. Annie always won and over powered him in the end.

No, he is not on her level, I know that and I even said myself that he "technically is no match for her" in the same post. The problem is the "nowhere near" part with the following comments that implies she's not as strong as she actually is in the canon.

Originally Posted by kitten320

a) She gets tossed by Eren.

He did something similar during the forest scene, he is capable of doing something like that to her. It shouldn't be surprising at all.

Originally Posted by kitten320

b) Eren crashes her face and eats her leg, in manga he never reached her.

Because in the manga he didn't catch her off guard after she tried to run away just like this post here said. (after he went eva mode)

Originally Posted by kitten320

She also uses her skin hardening ability more often here than in manga.

Yeah, no, she uses that everytime she strikes Eren in the manga as well.

[normp571]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

SnK won't last more than 90-100 chapters though.
Also, shitstorm everywhere. God, it's priceless.

It is going to end at 20 volumes. NOT chapters. VOLUMES.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...-in-20-volumes

I'm so friggin' HAPPY more SnK/AoT!!! Although, I hope they come out with a season two of the anime!!!!

Anyway, that episode was so awesome!!!! I absolutely loved episode 25!!!!

[normp571]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Color me as "yet another" manga reader not exactly pleased by this episode. Really, I don't see the point for the changes at all either:

-Seeing the titan at the very end of the episode is really not a good idea, because the whole relevation doesn't stop there: having the characters react about this and trying to find out the answer is what makes the revelation powerful and really meaningful.
Having just the face of a titan will just make people wonder how it happened to be there, while in the manga, you are pretty much realizing in horror that the -whole wall- is made of titans and they are ALIVE in there.

-My biggest gripe: another change for Eren's character development. Frankly, the changes made Titan Eren too much akin to Eva 01 going berserk when circumstances are met, despite it arguably didn't happen in the manga, save when he went all out against Annie in the forest.
But the real issue aside of "berserk tendencies" is that it makes Eren even more emotional and unreliable than he is supposed to be. So far, Eren manages to get control over his titan form over time, but here, it just follows the law of "cool factor" without much an actual reason behind that.
In fact, it is exactly because Eren was calm in the manga that he could get a good grip on her so the recon corps could extract Annie before she encases herself with that crystal. Making Eren again changing his mind after seeing Annie's human form is yet again a huge problem: it makes Eren having another "psychologic block" despite it isn't even supposed to be there.


By the way, this episode recycled a LOT of stock animations from previous episodes, to the point they are obvious and not that suitable. The biggest examples of that are Annie running and looking behind her (same used when Levi is about to slash her in the forest) and Levi intervening at the end.

Speaking of Levi, I don't get why they had to involve him once again. The story is pretty clear that Levi is basically unable to fight due to his broken leg/ankle. Even Mikasa was affected that her mistake made humanity losing their best soldier (skipped in the anime, alas), so having Levi appearing out of nowhere is just moronic at best. It will be nonsensical for him not to save the day later in the series, while he -should be- unable to fight at all.


They will have to retcon the end of this season for S2, otherwise they will have huge trouble to explain things later on.

The anime people have already taking some liberties with the manga. Who is to say that the anime has to strictly follow the manga?

[BatouFTW]

Okay, either some people are collaboratively posting fake spoilers, or real spoilers, from the manga, but either way can a mod clean that up please? Just because the last ep aired doesn't mean everyone will read the manga. Some of us will wait for a second anime season.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by normp571

It is going to end at 20 volumes. NOT chapters. VOLUMES.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...-in-20-volumes

I'm so friggin' HAPPY more SnK/AoT!!! Although, I hope they come out with a season two of the anime!!!!

I don't get it. 20 volumes is worth about 90-100 chapters if you consider each volume has about 4-5 chapters.

[normp571]

I wonder why Annie didn't try to recapture him in the anime or the manga?

[desrtsku]

^ Because it's a delicate procedure that takes time and leaves her open to surprise attacks, which isn't really a good idea when Mikasa & Co are close-by.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by normp571

The anime people have already taking some liberties with the manga. Who is to say that the anime has to strictly follow the manga?

An adaptation has to follow the original source events in order to avoid conflict with the plot later on. Unless they absolutely know how the source material will deal with certain plot points, adding unecessary stuff will lead to contradiction.

So far, the adaptation of Shingeki was never meant to be a "spin off adaptation" (like Negima ones), so having glaring changes like this might bite them in the ass later on, which will most likely happen due to how they dealt the end of this episode.

If liberties/fillers are done to flesh out scenes or add new ones, I see no problem with that (such as the one done for the fallen recon corps soldiers after the battle in the forest).
But unecessary changes for existing scenes are really the worst idea in term of adaptation.
Really, I don't even understand why they made Annie's titan body merge with Eren's. But likewise, Levi being able to act like a boss despite his injury is just a major problem once again.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

I don't get it. 20 volumes is worth about 90-100 chapters if you consider each volume has about 4-5 chapters.

That's 20 volumes -overall-. Meaning the manga is already past halfway as we already got more than 11 volumes.

[BatouFTW]

I agree about the Levi thing IF he was truly seriously injured, but I thought all along that this was just Erwin sandbagging so he could keep an ace up his sleeve. I saw the Levi scene merely as proof I was correct. After all, in public, Erwin orders Levi not to deploy (to fool Niles, obviously), but then Levi shows up 3dMG-equipped and only walking with a slight limp. Just another bit of patented Erwin cloak and dagger stuff.

[DXMichael]

Well, I read from another post what the changes were. All I can really say for the scene after the credits is that, if they put it in there, they must have a way to explain it if they make another season. I'm sure they didn't go "Let's move this here, to here, and hope for the best". If they do make a second season, they can easily create another solution which could take maybe a minutes worth of animation and still stay on track and follow the manga.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

An adaptation has to follow the original source events in order not to lead to conflicting the plot later on. Unless they absolutely know how the source material will deal with certain plot points, adding unecessary stuff will lead to contradiction.

So far, the adaptation of Shingeki was never meant to be a "spin off adaptation" (like Negima ones), so having glaring changes like this might bite them in the ass later on, which will most likely happen due to how they dealt the end of this episode.

I already talked about this in one of my posts : nothing that happened this episode will lead to major contradiction later on. Really, the most important thing about that reveal has nothing to do with how that battle ended.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

If liberties/fillers are done to flesh out scenes or add new ones, I see no problem with that. But unecessary changes for existing scenes are really the worst idea in term of adaptation.

Those changes weren't unecessary, they were made for the sake of giving a proper closure to this season. Because just as you said, in your previous post : that reveal was practically nothing without the proper reactions from the characters. Some people here even missed to get what is was,, if it wasn't for others spoiling it. And that was exactly the point : that reveal wasn't supposed to create a major reaction at all (at least for now).

Originally Posted by Klashikari

But likewise, Levi being able to act like a boss despite his injury is just a major problem once again.

He is still injured though, you can see it from the way he walks. In the first place if his injury (mainly the fact that he can 3DMG here) poses so much problem in here, you guys should also be questioning how he could escape from the forest with Mikasa.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by BatouFTW

I agree about the Levi thing IF he was truly seriously injured, but I thought all along that this was just Erwin sandbagging so he could keep an ace up his sleeve. I saw the Levi scene merely as proof I was correct. After all, in public, Erwin orders Levi not to deploy (to fool Niles, obviously), but then Levi shows up 3dMG-equipped and only walking with a slight limp. Just another bit of patented Erwin cloak and dagger stuff.

And that's a major change in the anime, because he is really unable to fight due to his injury. If they don't "nerf" him with some anime original content in S2, things will turn out into a plot hole fast.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

I already talked about this in one of my posts : nothing that happened this episode will lead to major contradiction later on. Really, the most important thing about that reveal has nothing to do with how that battle ended.

-Eren mindset is already a contradiction compared to what has transpired in the manga, which will not make his character consistent if the rest of the plot is adapted correctly.

-Levi is -not- able to fight. That's a major contradiction.

Those changes weren't unecessary, they were made for the sake of giving a proper closure to this season. Because just as you said, in your previous post : that reveal was practically nothing without the proper reactions from the characters. Some people here even missed to get what is was,, if it wasn't for others spoiling it. And that was exactly the point, that reveal wasn't supposed to create a major reaction at all.

The plot twist -was- supposed to lead to a shock factor, otherwise they wouldn't even put that, especially after the ending that makes you think "well, things are sort of open ended so... huh what the hell?".
The biggest problem is that this scene is occuring in this fashion that would leave a bigger issue later on if not fixed.

He is still injured though, you can see it from the way he walks. In the first place if his injury (mainly the fact that he can 3DMG here) poses so much problem in here, you guys should also be questioning how he could escape from the forest with Mikasa.

I disagree. Levi had only to escape with Mikasa and Eren in the forest, compared to this episode. Levi basically had to use simple manoeuvres to get away without the need of straining his body, beyond somply carrying Eren.
Meanwhile, this episode clearly shows Levi lunging, which would add additional strain on his ankle upon landing. That's not what Erwin would let Levi do, if it could worsen his wounds. Erwin was thus far shown keeping his resources because he plays on the long term. Short term gain isn't profitable.

[desrtsku]

^ But he didn't "fight" though. He just cut Eren. It's no different from that time when he sliced open Annie's mouth.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

^ But he didn't "fight" though. He just cut Eren. It's no different from that time when he sliced open Annie's mouth.

You don't need to fight to strain your body. The way how Levi lunged is enough to make you wonder how he can land without worsening his wound.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You don't need to fight to strain your body. The way how Levi lunged is enough to make you wonder how he can land without worsening his wound.

Then again, how was he even capable of escaping that forest is that wound is that severe in the first place?
Actually, you can forget that. It's a no brainer to find the solution, because you posted it yourself. If one suppose his injury was actually severe but he still forced himself to act anyway, thus his wound must have certainly gotten worse : leading to why he ended up completely unable to fight later on.