3 years already and still shedding a tear

[idofgrahf]

Originally Posted by kodachrome

Yeah, whatever. Let's face it, Kira is destined to be some bitch's boy toy for his whole damn life, whether it's Fllay or Lacus. Kira is the sword and the women in his life are his resolve.

lol, he just can't say no to woman, the opposit of Heero I guess.

Have you thought about why he "let her", or are you not past putting 2 + 2 together yet? And both males and females put up with bullshit from people every day. Get your head out of your idealistic ass and wake up to how romance works on planet Earth and how not every relationship is Kira x Lacus-like. People use and abuse, whether they're male or female, using every resource they have from money to their body to guilt tripping. Fllay x Kira is a realistic relationship where someone was using someone else by controlling them with their sexual fantasies--things like these happen OUTSIDE OF ANIME, whether you like it or not.

Unfortunatley, true. Some people use one another to get what they want, money, blackmail, sex the list goes on. Kira x Fllay is more realistic then Kira x lacus, because a person like Lacus would not surivive more then a few years in the real world, far too idealistc, just like a certain peacecraft in W gundam.

[otacu]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Yes, Kira and Fllay were together. But with Kira being so mentally out of it, I'd think that being together with Lacus for perhaps several days, maybe a week, with time passing at a snail's pace with little to do besides the occasional news and just looking at the swans swimming around in the lake with the breeze blowing the grass...I'd think that whatever time Kira spent with Lacus in those several days was more than enough to get to know her as well as he knew Fllay (sex aside) when you're taking into account all the fighting, tension, drama, etc... and Kira's mental state.

Fllay was the one that healed Kira's isolation at first. And he was grateful to her till the end. Until the end of GS Kira loved Fllay and wanted to be with her... not with Lacus.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

As for Kira fighting much better when Lacus is around, do you people even bother looking at what comes out of Freedom's wings when she's around? Lacus dust. The Freedom's cockpit is inundated with that stuff when Lacus is around, and it makes Kira a much better fighter. That's half joke, half seriousness. When Lacus is around, Freedom has a ton of Lacus dust. In Kira's fight against Shinn, there was NO Lacus dust, hence he lost.

Lacus Dust? Not even Fukuda in his most insane moments could have thought of this crap. You are again blind by your view of supernatural-perfection Lacus... now she even gives .... Power Dust!

Originally Posted by Demongod86

As fro the Freedom theft, Lacus knew what she was doing. It was Kira that befriended her on AA and tried to protect everyone and suffered the most, so he got the Freedom so he could go and pwn up the baddies. And pwn them up he did. And Yzak probably WOULD have become Freedom's pilot. He WAS the second best in the entire ZAFT, next to Athrun.

Again supernatural Lacus knew that Kira was the right man.... why? Nobody knew he was ultimate coordinator she just felt like it. Princess Lacus can use ultrasecret elite zaft mecha as she pleases?

Originally Posted by Demongod86

And for the record, Kira isn't Lacus's mindless pawn. He can think for himself quite a significant amount, although it's less than Lacus's abilities by a significant amount, since he has his fighting skills to make up for it.

Kira can think for himself? doesn't seems so in GSD.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

As for Fllay, people are touting how she changed. That's like having a murderer reform after he slaughtered five children. By that point, it doesn't matter. Face it, people, THE DAMAGE WAS DONE. If Kira wasn't as much of a sweet guy as he was, he would have simply moved on with Lacus in a heartbeat. Measurements aside, whatever Fllay can provide, Lacus can do better. She is sweeter, smarter, more caring, the whole nine. Lacus is an angel, and an incarnation of what the perfect human being is. And yet, still has human qualities.

Again... ha ha ha that's why Lacus is just a stupid ideal girl. It's easy to make the perfect girl but that's just escaping from reality and from what real girl are. There is not even a single human girl like Lacus in the world. She is just too perfect and idealized... just read what you have wrote! An angel! She is just an unrealistic and artificial dream like Belldandy. I guess that's your taste but hey! Face reality!

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Fllay is completely off the wall. If you want to say that Lacus is miss perfect angel, then Fllay is nothing short of a demoness, be it a devilless or a succubus. She is a complete opposite to Lacus in her time with Kira. Selfish, un-understanding, stupid, angry, weak, manipulative, blind, hurtful...it was out of the goodness of his own heart and conscience that Kira put up with Fllay. Any other guy would have said "WTF did you expect me to do out there in a 4v1 with my best friend there? You honestly expected me to kill my best friend? GTFO."

That's the beauty of Fllay's character: a realistic character and development. Something that Lacus in her perfection completely lacks. Lacus is just a piece of stone... always perfect, unreal and allways the same. Fllay is the embodiement of human feelings and nature. She cry, she hate, she does wrong, she repent, she wants to change ... that's the beauty of a truly great character. And that's why Fllay is a GREAT character and Lacus is just mindless fanboyism material. Just as Kira in GS was a great main character and in GSD he was a mindless puppet to pleases hordes of fanboys who screams "yeaaah Kira pwns!" (reference to above quote)

Originally Posted by Demongod86

You people are giving Fllay far too much credit. The only reason she was able to get as far as she did is that Kira let her. Anyone more down to earth than sweet little Kira would have just dumped that shit, assets or no. Nobody deserves to put up with a Fllay.

That's only cause you stop at first impression. Kira wasn't so superficial and just before going MIA he has showed us that. He understood Fllay's character and wanted to restart a relationship with her with new basis. But Fllay was not ready, felt guilty at the moment and fled.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

I really can care less how Fllay changed. All of the damage she (and perhaps inadvertently Athrun) did, it was up to Lacus to repair. Up to the final fight with Rau, it was Lacus that should be solely accredited for Kira's survival, and past about the same point in Destiny as well...it was Lacus that kept everyone (well, except Mia ) alive with her intuition and supergundams.

See? You don't care less for Fllay's development all you see is just "Lacus is my ideal"! Wow so i guess every girl that goes around giving away supergundams deserves more love than other girls? Kira was bought! Btw if Fllay gave Kira sex and Lacus gave Supergundams (who weren't even Lacu's .... zaft paid the money!): i guess Kira was wise and choosed sex over some mecha.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

If you reallly want to compare who was better for Kira in the long run, the answer is undoubtedly Lacus, unless you see Fllay producing supergundams and beating out dictators in mental chess games.

So basically you are waiting for a girl who give you a limo as a present and is capable at the age of 16 to beat dictators at mental chess games.... get real!
Kira needed sincere love not some artificial angel to give him presents and say him when it's time to go to the toilet. In GSD Kira has as much initiative as a slime.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

As for convenience, I can understand Kira x Lacus a LOT better than Kira x Fllay. After Kira made the decision to dump Fllay and GTFO of that destructive relationship, I can definitely understand why he'd take solace in Lacus's embraces. I wouldn't be able to understand if he'd turn her down. Their personalities are a match made in heaven. He--and she--are both sweet, quiet, genuinely good people. As for Fllay, she took advantage of Kira the whole nine yards and wouldn't have lasted with any less decent individual.

What the hell are you saying ???? Kira dumped Fllay???? When??? He was talking about restarting their relationship. I suggest to get rid of your "lacus fanboyism vision" soon.


The real Lacus ... LOL

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

What are you answering to? What do you mean?

Um, if she didn't think Kira was worth any of her attention, then she'll avoid him like the plague.

Your point was, if you'll remember, they were surprised because they knew her very well, even before GS. That Kira, in particular, knew her before GS. I answered that what they saw of her during the trip was enough to make them surpirsed, even if they'd never exchanged a word before.

You were saying that Kira x Flay was something born of a long, friendly association predating GS. I disagreed with you.

Well, I wasn't saying that they WERE on friendly terms, I was saying that they knew well enough of each other as to actually get shocked about what she did.

It would be IMPOSSIBLE if they didn't know anything about Fllay at all. Ssigh probably knew her enough to write her that letter, and that their parents knew each other very well that was why they agreed to their engagement. As far as I know, one wouldn't really agree to the marriage or engagement until that they were pretty sure about each other's families and their children. Ssigh, in turn, is a friend of Kira, Miriallia, Tolle, and Kuzzey. So they probably know something about Fllay earlier part of GS, that maybe she was his crush or something, but not enough as to get all surprised (and in Kira's case, SHOCKED) when they learned about their engagement. And they also knew about Kira's crush on Fllay, that was why they all looked at Fllay and Kira funny, and Fllay got embarrassed about the letter. And maybe, since Fllay was part of the younger years of the technical college they went to (Fllay was younger than all of them by a year), they probably knew her well enough to be the school's most popular girl, or maybe she went out with dates with Ssigh, or probably joined their outings as a group.

I'm not. But she was no saint either, even at the end of the series.

Fllay wasn't a saint. But she didn't go through the entire series without actually trying to change for the better. She admitted she was wrong, she was at fault, that she hurt people, etc., etc., and finally realized that she had fallen in love with Kira at the end.

I think you are exagerating her feelings. And failing to take into account the rest of what she felt. Like guilt.

I wasn't exaggerating. She felt a lot of emotions: hate towards the Coordinators, and she was still selfish at the beginning of the series. She probably felt guilty when she had those flashbacks of Kira when she was about to kill Dearka. Then she tried getting back with Ssigh, and when he told her that she was in love with Kira, she refused to believe it. But she was thinking of him quite often after that. When she found out that he was alive, she was VERY happy. She realized that she was already in love with him and she wanted to tell him that she already was.

If you read carefully I wasn't exaggerating at all. I just went through the stages of how her feelings for Kira developed one step at a time, taking into account all the things she probably felt as she went through it.

Really understood war? When did that happen? She was naive before GS started, she was still naive when she left AA, still naive when she was recovered by Dominion... Heck, she was probably still naive when she tried to join AA, she just had run out of things to be deluded about.

She actually knew what war was all about at the end, not just because there are Naturals and Coordinators. If she didn't understand what it was all about, she would've probably demanded to be taken back to her house or whatever after the JOSH-A incident. It would be very easy at that point, no? Maybe her reason for trying to get back to the Archangel was something more of a childish reason at first, but as fate would have it, Rau found her instead, and so she was taken into a ship filled with Coordinators whom she hated at the beginning. And yes, if she didn't really understood what her position was at that moment, she would've probably done something very stupid as trying to kill off Rau or all Coordinators on board. And, being with the Coordinators made her think that they weren't all that bad as she was brought up to believe in: that they had their own valid reasons why they were fighting, as much as the Naturals did as well. She saw the 2 sides of the war she was in, so she understood it a little better at the end. If Fllay didn't change at all, she would still be probably hateful and resentful towards them, and would've been killed of as the super bitch that she failed to become in contrast to GODDESS Lacus. I mean, the early stages of Fllay would rather get herself killed before agreeing to get friendly with Coordinators...

She had been through a lot of first time experiences for her, and she learned from it. So she came through it all understanding what war was about, even if it was done in realistic but WTF terms. Not the idealistic war is bad shit, but war in its many different guises during it. Which is a whole lot understanding than what the GODDESS claims to know about it.

She only became useful after she died. Good job. Besides her afterdeath scene with Kira, she was pretty much a waste of air.

If I remember correctly she was VERY USEFUL in the Desert Arc... And what about Lacus? You could not claim that she was useful at all, other than she was the one who gave Kira the GOD SUIT of the CE...

Very possibly. Neither girl was entirely honest with him. Still, in GSD, he'd been with her for two years. And had seen what she'd wrought in the TSA. All he saw of Flay was her manipulative act, and did he ever see through it?

Um, if he DIDN'T, he would've probably not be crazy when he heard her voice again. Or had those weird hallucinations. Kira was still haunted by Fllay's death, which sent him staring at the sea for the last 2 years and all Lacus could say was "Kira..." RIGHT.

I never tried to claim Kira knew Lacus. Just that he didn't know Flay enough to be able to say he loved her.

There wasn't enough chemistry those 2 had on screen to be able to say that they actually cared for each other (Kira Lacus) in SEED, and what Fukuda said about Kira not liking either of them was killed off by their very obvious "together-ness" in Destiny. Lacus was the one who always made the first move in SEED, and in Destiny (she was so eager to be with Kira, and it was just SO obvious... ). Kira always acted so...well...un-emotional, so the scenes wherein the 2 of them together didn't really feel right; it's as if that they just to be there for some obscure reason, and it's because that they're the "canon-est couple of the CE". More so when Kira is shown becoming worried for Lacus. If it weren't for Athrun, Kira would'nt even BE IN SPACE to save the Eternal from those ZAFTies... The only canon couple I respect for this very obvious relationship loop hole would be Athrun and Cagalli. At least it was believable how they really cared about each other.

"Love so much"? We're not talking about someone he'd known and loved and lived with for years. We're talking about a girl he was with for a few weeks.

It wasn't really shown how much they bacame so "mature and realistic" in their relationship (Kira Lacus), so you really can't claim that he had loved Lacus after the events of SEED. I mean, if it was just THAT easy, it would've made much more sense if the first ep of Destiny wherein they were reintroduced that they were shown holding hands and being so damn lovey dovey with each other.

Granted that we have this relationship loophole of 2 years, it was quite obvious in the first eps of Destiny that Kira was still haunted by Fllay, a girl you claim that he had only known for a couple of weeks. What? Those few weeks made them go through typical situations normal, real couples get through in the early stages of their relationship, and it would've made much more sense if they were to spend it after starting the relationship over from scratch again, and so no Destiny. But Fllay got killed, an dwith it, a waste of a really undestimated character (as Last_Hope put it) who was such a strong one, to boot.

Her father's presence was a surprise to Flay. And even if she knew he was in danger, she was still too daft to think he might die.

Of course, he's her daddy, and her daddy can't die just being in the middle of a battlefield. I mean, if we were put in Fllay's shoes, we'd probably think the same. With those strong people gurading my daddy, who could say something could go wrong? But it was proved other wise. So what in the world do you expect her to think?

As for Lacus: she must have known they couldn't get away with the Freedom theft. And they'd know where the wind was blowing for a while, which is why they'd prepared. They'd been ready to go underground before Kira appeared. Her father stayed behind to get martyred, and she pretty much knew it was in the cards.

Well, it's ALL thanks to her supernatural abilities to predict the future and knowing when's the right time to declare war, and waging mental chess games with brilliant politicians at the side. And being such a good diplomat or whatever she was, if she already knew it, why did she even go ahead and do it? And that it would lead into something which her father didn't want to happen? Some omniscient GODDESS she is.

I'm not even sure what you mean.

Going by these perfect characteristics, you would think she would'nt do such a thing. But she did. And her "human" characteristics don't count.

[Anh_Minh]

First (and I say this without animosity), could you please stop with the bold font? If you must emphasize, can't you just use italics? They're much less obnoxious.

Second, are we even speaking the same language? Do you remember what you're trying to argue?

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Um, if she didn't think Kira was worth any of her attention, then she'll avoid him like the plague.

... So you feel a great aversion toward everyone you don't actually like? Seek psychiatric help.

Seriously, haven't you ever met someone you neither liked nor disliked, but just didn't connect with? Haven't you ever been introduced to some guy, shy in social situations (which is all I imagine Kira and Flay shared) who didn't say much, and whose name you forgot 30 seconds after?

I rather imagine that's what happened between them. They met, had some common friends, but didn't talk much. Kira noticed she was pretty and vivacious, Flay didn't notice much at all beyond "bland and shy".

Well, I wasn't saying that they WERE on friendly terms, I was saying that they knew well enough of each other as to actually get shocked about what she did.

And I'm saying that "well enough" isn't much at all, and that that knowledge could easily have been developped entirely on AA.

It would be IMPOSSIBLE if they didn't know anything about Fllay at all. Ssigh probably knew her enough to write her that letter, and that their parents knew each other very well that was why they agreed to their engagement. As far as I know, one wouldn't really agree to the marriage or engagement until that they were pretty sure about each other's families and their children. Ssigh, in turn, is a friend of Kira, Miriallia, Tolle, and Kuzzey. So they probably know something about Fllay earlier part of GS, that maybe she was his crush or something, but not enough as to get all surprised (and in Kira's case, SHOCKED) when they learned about their engagement. And they also knew about Kira's crush on Fllay, that was why they all looked at Fllay and Kira funny, and Fllay got embarrassed about the letter. And maybe, since Fllay was part of the younger years of the technical college they went to (Fllay was younger than all of them by a year), they probably knew her well enough to be the school's most popular girl, or maybe she went out with dates with Ssigh, or probably joined their outings as a group.

I never said they didn't know her at all. I said that Kira and Flay didn't know each other much beyond face and name. (Well, face, in Flay's case...) Sai no doubt knew her better than that, but the others? Kira, in particular? Sure didn't look like it.

Fllay wasn't a saint. But she didn't go through the entire series without actually trying to change for the better.

She didn't try to do much besides being pretty and manipulating her "friends". Change happened because of the circumstances. It has a way of doing that.

She admitted she was wrong, she was at fault, that she hurt people, etc., etc., and finally realized that she had fallen in love with Kira at the end.

Do you mean before or after she died?

(And the scene with Sai doesn't count - she was just trying to get him back for her own comfort's sake.)

I wasn't exaggerating. She felt a lot of emotions: hate towards the Coordinators, and she was still selfish at the beginning of the series. She probably felt guilty when she had those flashbacks of Kira when she was about to kill Dearka. Then she tried getting back with Ssigh, and when he told her that she was in love with Kira, she refused to believe it. But she was thinking of him quite often after that. When she found out that he was alive, she was VERY happy. She realized that she was already in love with him and she wanted to tell him that she already was.

Meh. She cared about him and liked him quite a lot. But I'm leery of teenagers' "love". And, frankly, I remain unconvinced of the depth of her feelings.

If you read carefully I wasn't exaggerating at all. I just went through the stages of how her feelings for Kira developed one step at a time, taking into account all the things she probably felt as she went through it.

And I disagree with your analysis. I think she just went from hate that blinded her to the wrong she was doing to "feeling guilty + seeing Kira for what he was and liking what she saw + caring about him because of the memories and the guilt". It is, I suppose, a kind of "love", but it's not that deep, and you could practically have substituted Kira for a trained monkey, provided that monkey was susceptible to Flay's manipulations and could pilot a MS.

She actually knew what war was all about at the end, not just because there are Naturals and Coordinators. If she didn't understand what it was all about, she would've probably demanded to be taken back to her house or whatever after the JOSH-A incident. It would be very easy at that point, no? Maybe her reason for trying to get back to the Archangel was something more of a childish reason at first, but as fate would have it, Rau found her instead, and so she was taken into a ship filled with Coordinators whom she hated at the beginning. And yes, if she didn't really understood what her position was at that moment, she would've probably done something very stupid as trying to kill off Rau or all Coordinators on board. And, being with the Coordinators made her think that they weren't all that bad as she was brought up to believe in: that they had their own valid reasons why they were fighting, as much as the Naturals did as well. She saw the 2 sides of the war she was in, so she understood it a little better at the end. If Fllay didn't change at all, she would still be probably hateful and resentful towards them, and would've been killed of as the super bitch that she failed to become in contrast to GODDESS Lacus. I mean, the early stages of Fllay would rather get herself killed before agreeing to get friendly with Coordinators...

Yeah, so she wasn't as ignorant as when she started out. But she wasn't exactly a well of wisdom either. It's not like there aren't a lot of intermediary positions between "bigoted, hatefilled moron" and "the second coming of Ghandi". "She really knew what war was" is a big claim, that I do not subscribe to.

And her passiveness with the coordinators I attribute not to any kind of friendly feeling, but to survival instinct. She'd rather submit than be killed, or even hurt. That's all there is to it.

She had been through a lot of first time experiences for her, and she learned from it. So she came through it all understanding what war was about, even if it was done in realistic but WTF terms. Not the idealistic war is bad shit, but war in its many different guises during it. Which is a whole lot understanding than what the GODDESS claims to know about it.

"War is about people in varied uniforms shooting each other"? That's what your great wisdom is?

And let me remind you: Lacus, too, has been on vessels on both sides of the war. The change (if any) isn't as obvious as in Flay because she didn't start as a prejudiced idiot, and because we didn't know her before she came aboard the AA.

If I remember correctly she was VERY USEFUL in the Desert Arc... And what about Lacus? You could not claim that she was useful at all, other than she was the one who gave Kira the GOD SUIT of the CE...

Lacus is presented as a string puller and an ideological leader. Her actions aren't obvious (besides what she did for Kira and Athrun) and are barely touched on at all. (What role did she fill do for the Klyne Faction? That's not really exposed.)

Um, if he DIDN'T, he would've probably not be crazy when he heard her voice again. Or had those weird hallucinations. Kira was still haunted by Fllay's death, which sent him staring at the sea for the last 2 years and all Lacus could say was "Kira..." RIGHT.

It's precisely because of those incidents I say he didn't see through her act. That he didn't see her for the manipulative bitch she was (or used to be. Whatever.) Thus my claim that he didn't know her at all.

There wasn't enough chemistry those 2 had on screen to be able to say that they actually cared for each other (Kira Lacus) in SEED, and what Fukuda said about Kira not liking either of them was killed off by their very obvious "together-ness" in Destiny. Lacus was the one who always made the first move in SEED, and in Destiny (she was so eager to be with Kira, and it was just SO obvious... ). Kira always acted so...well...un-emotional, so the scenes wherein the 2 of them together didn't really feel right; it's as if that they just to be there for some obscure reason, and it's because that they're the "canon-est couple of the CE". More so when Kira is shown becoming worried for Lacus. If it weren't for Athrun, Kira would'nt even BE IN SPACE to save the Eternal from those ZAFTies... The only canon couple I respect for this very obvious relationship loop hole would be Athrun and Cagalli. At least it was believable how they really cared about each other.



It wasn't really shown how much they bacame so "mature and realistic" in their relationship (Kira Lacus), so you really can't claim that he had loved Lacus after the events of SEED. I mean, if it was just THAT easy, it would've made much more sense if the first ep of Destiny wherein they were reintroduced that they were shown holding hands and being so damn lovey dovey with each other.

Lacus and Kira's relationship is completely irrelevant to Flay and Kira's. Proving (if such a thing can be done) that Kira and Lacus don't really love each other won't make Kira and Flay's "love" any deeper or purer.

Have you misinterpreted what I wrote? I wasn't trying to make a comparison between Flay and Lacus. (You're the one who like to do that. As if making Lacus look bad was going to make Flay look any better...) I was saying that, quite independantly of anything else, Kira and Flay hadn't shared that much, and that two years was enough to get over her death, tragic as it was.

Granted that we have this relationship loophole of 2 years, it was quite obvious in the first eps of Destiny that Kira was still haunted by Fllay, a girl you claim that he had only known for a couple of weeks. What? Those few weeks made them go through typical situations normal, real couples get through in the early stages of their relationship, and it would've made much more sense if they were to spend it after starting the relationship over from scratch again, and so no Destiny. But Fllay got killed, an dwith it, a waste of a really undestimated character (as Last_Hope put it) who was such a strong one, to boot.

It was obvious he was haunted by something. That it was by Flay is merely your own guess.

Of course, he's her daddy, and her daddy can't die just being in the middle of a battlefield. I mean, if we were put in Fllay's shoes, we'd probably think the same. With those strong people gurading my daddy, who could say something could go wrong? But it was proved other wise. So what in the world do you expect her to think?

Then we agree her dad's death was a surprise and a shock. It wasn't the case for Lacus, she reacted less.

Well, it's ALL thanks to her supernatural abilities to predict the future and knowing when's the right time to declare war, and waging mental chess games with brilliant politicians at the side. And being such a good diplomat or whatever she was, if she already knew it, why did she even go ahead and do it? And that it would lead into something which her father didn't want to happen? Some omniscient GODDESS she is.

What the hell are you talking about? (And I never called her goddess, or omniscient.) As for what I said about them knowing what was going to happen, it's more reasonable to think her father foresaw it and set up the underground Klyne faction, not her. And I'm not talking about precognitive flash. I'm talking about predicting Patrick Zala's rise to power and genocidal ambitions. It's not like the man was making any effort to hide them, in private conversations.

Going by these perfect characteristics, you would think she would'nt do such a thing. But she did. And her "human" characteristics don't count.

Again, WTH are you talking about?

[otacu]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

She didn't try to do much besides being pretty and manipulating her "friends". Change happened because of the circumstances. It has a way of doing that.

Well you should excuse her since she is not a rich princess, daughter of the chairman of the most powerful human nation, who has access to the most secret places of her army and can give the most secret and powerful mecha(paid and built by the taxes of citizens) to the guy she loves (as her fanboys claim). Fllay was honest enough to rely on her own power and that's a very human trait. But there is much more about her.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Do you mean before or after she died?

(And the scene with Sai doesn't count - she was just trying to get him back for her own comfort's sake.)

She realized she was wrong before Kira went MIA. When Kira was so kind to her knowing all what she had done so far.... Fllay felt that she was unworthy of his affection and fled crying and badmouthing him. He was telling her to restart their relationship on a new more honest basis and Fllay wasn't ready to accept this. In her need for a relationship she then went to Ssigh who was honest and smart enough to actually tell she was obviously in love with Kira. After that she finally learned to accept her feeling, he learned that coordinators are humans and not monsters like she thought and accepted her feelings for Kira. The scene with Natarle was clear.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Meh. She cared about him and liked him quite a lot. But I'm leery of teenagers' "love". And, frankly, I remain unconvinced of the depth of her feelings.

That's fine, it's your choice and opinion. But if you don't accept "this" love, frankly i guess it will be even more difficult to accept the artificial "love" between Lacus and Kira.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And I disagree with your analysis. I think she just went from hate that blinded her to the wrong she was doing to "feeling guilty + seeing Kira for what he was and liking what she saw + caring about him because of the memories and the guilt". It is, I suppose, a kind of "love", but it's not that deep, and you could practically have substituted Kira for a trained monkey, provided that monkey was susceptible to Flay's manipulations and could pilot a MS.

Is it so difficult to accept that Fllay's love was sincer and pure in the end? She wasn't searching a bodyguard anymore, she didn't want revenge, she wasn't searching for a pilot to manipulate in her own private plans (.... you know what i mean ).... she just wanted to be with Kira, plain and simple. Kira was the first one that accepted Fllay as a simple girl and went past the "spoiled girl" first impression. He accepted her flaws and all about her and that's why Fllay at first was afraid of this... because for the first time someone saw her true self and accepted it. Her heart was "nude" in front of him and not just naked.
And she want to restart from the beginning and just love him. And Kira was feeling the same, he always had Fllay in his mind (remember when he found out she was alive) and i doubt it was just because of sense of duty... when Lacus tried to kiss him he CLEARLY refused since he was still in love with Fllay.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, so she wasn't as ignorant as when she started out. But she wasn't exactly a well of wisdom either. It's not like there aren't a lot of intermediary positions between "bigoted, hatefilled moron" and "the second coming of Ghandi". "She really knew what war was" is a big claim, that I do not subscribe to.

And her passiveness with the coordinators I attribute not to any kind of friendly feeling, but to survival instinct. She'd rather submit than be killed, or even hurt. That's all there is to it.

"War is about people in varied uniforms shooting each other"? That's what your great wisdom is?

Fllay in the end realized that the coordinators weren't filthy monsters... from her small perspective she realized that there were humans on both sides. It didn't matter to her who was wrong or right: she just realized she was wrong in believing that EAF was right and Zaft was wrong. She just wanted to be reunited to Kira: the only one who was able to see her true self and love her.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And let me remind you: Lacus, too, has been on vessels on both sides of the war. The change (if any) isn't as obvious as in Flay because she didn't start as a prejudiced idiot, and because we didn't know her before she came aboard the AA.

Lacus is presented as a string puller and an ideological leader. Her actions aren't obvious (besides what she did for Kira and Athrun) and are barely touched on at all. (What role did she fill do for the Klyne Faction? That's not really exposed.)

That's why Lacus is a flat and uninteresting character. Because there is no development in her character.... she knew all along what prejudices and war was. When she went on AA for the first time she already was the "GODDESS" or "ANGEL" her fanboys love so much. She was already perfect at the beginning and didn't make a single error during the story.
And that's why it's so uninteresting and flat.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's precisely because of those incidents I say he didn't see through her act. That he didn't see her for the manipulative bitch she was (or used to be. Whatever.) Thus my claim that he didn't know her at all.

I think you completely removed the dialogue Fllay and Kira had before Kira went MIA. Kira DID see through her act and that's why Fllay was furious.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Lacus and Kira's relationship is completely irrelevant to Flay and Kira's. Proving (if such a thing can be done) that Kira and Lacus don't really love each other won't make Kira and Flay's "love" any deeper or purer.

There is no need to prove that Kira and Lacus didn't love each other in GSEED since there is no single proof that Kira loved Lacus and the only proof that Lacus loved Kira was just before the end when she tried to kiss him and got refused. Until that point for all that matters she could have been in love with Athrun.... but hey Athrun was already paired with Cagalli (since the obvious scene at the island) and Fukuda thought.....
"let's forget about all the development about Fllay+Kira i have done in the last 40eps and just pair together Kira and Lacus! After all Lacus is the most popular female character on Newtype so i guess it's ok.... i can come with a sorry excuse later on to justify this. Btw i have to get rid of Fllay.... her popularity is not high enough and her development is a threat to the perfect couple...."

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Have you misinterpreted what I wrote? I wasn't trying to make a comparison between Flay and Lacus. (You're the one who like to do that. As if making Lacus look bad was going to make Flay look any better...) I was saying that, quite independantly of anything else, Kira and Flay hadn't shared that much, and that two years was enough to get over her death, tragic as it was.

Kira and Fllay hadn't shared that much??? Did you completely skipped the episodes of GSEED?
I agree that after two years (TWO YEARS) Kira has probably recovered from the shock of losing his beloved Fllay.... but that's a completely different and sad story: Gundam Seed Destiny.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It was obvious he was haunted by something. That it was by Flay is merely your own guess.

Haunted by something? What was the trigger that made Kira REALLY mad against Raww? I think his guess is completely on target.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by otacu

Well you should excuse her since she is not a rich princess, daughter of the chairman of the most powerful human nation, who has access to the most secret places of her army and can give the most secret and powerful mecha(paid and built by the taxes of citizens) to the guy she loves (as her fanboys claim). Fllay was honest enough to rely on her own power and that's a very human trait. But there is much more about her.

Fllay was the daughter of a man powerful enough to get himself invited on a warship going to the front. She's no little matchgirl.

Also, the concepts of "Flay", "honest" and "rely on her own power" so don't go together... (Well, no problem with "honest" and "rely on her own power". It's when you try adding "Flay" in the mix that it comes apart.)

She realized she was wrong before Kira went MIA. When Kira was so kind to her knowing all what she had done so far.... Fllay felt that she was unworthy of his affection and fled crying and badmouthing him. He was telling her to restart their relationship on a new more honest basis and Fllay wasn't ready to accept this. In her need for a relationship she then went to Ssigh who was honest and smart enough to actually tell she was obviously in love with Kira. After that she finally learned to accept her feeling, he learned that coordinators are humans and not monsters like she thought and accepted her feelings for Kira. The scene with Natarle was clear.

She felt that something was wrong. The rest is speculation. Mostly, Kira told her "Gtg. Battle. TTYL."

That's fine, it's your choice and opinion. But if you don't accept "this" love, frankly i guess it will be even more difficult to accept the artificial "love" between Lacus and Kira.

I accept both as a kind of love. But neither as the pure, love-that-moves-mountain, till-death-does-us-part kind.

Is it so difficult to accept that Fllay's love was sincer and pure in the end?

Honestly? Yes. Any adolescent romance is hard to accept as "sincere and pure love". Doubly and triply so for Flay.

She wasn't searching a bodyguard anymore, she didn't want revenge, she wasn't searching for a pilot to manipulate in her own private plans (.... you know what i mean ).... she just wanted to be with Kira, plain and simple.

She was a sinner in search of redemption and forgiveness. Not to mention safety and fellowship, even as illusory a one as that found on Archangel.

Kira was the first one that accepted Fllay as a simple girl and went past the "spoiled girl" first impression. He accepted her flaws and all about her and that's why Fllay at first was afraid of this... because for the first time someone saw her true self and accepted it. Her heart was "nude" in front of him and not just naked.

Kira was naive enough to not see behind the facade. Even to the end he didn't know how she'd used him.

And she want to restart from the beginning and just love him. And Kira was feeling the same, he always had Fllay in his mind (remember when he found out she was alive) and i doubt it was just because of sense of duty... when Lacus tried to kiss him he CLEARLY refused since he was still in love with Fllay.

He wanted his fake Flay that was nice and thought of him. Because that's what he thought she was, which just goes to show what a dumbass he could be. Did Flay become like that, in the end? That's debatable. As for refusing Lacus - isn't that rather because:
- he wasn't in love with her,
- he hadn't had a clean break with Flay?
No big love necessary.

Fllay in the end realized that the coordinators weren't filthy monsters... from her small perspective she realized that there were humans on both sides.

Yeah. Took her fifty episodes to arrive to the knowledge all the good guys started with. Good job!

It didn't matter to her who was wrong or right: she just realized she was wrong in believing that EAF was right and Zaft was wrong. She just wanted to be reunited to Kira: the only one who was able to see her true self and love her.

The only one to not see through her. The one who made her feel safe. The one who could forgive her, once someone gets around to explain to him he was a tool. (Because he's the one sinned against, only his forgiveness is relevant.)

That's why Lacus is a flat and uninteresting character. Because there is no development in her character.... she knew all along what prejudices and war was. When she went on AA for the first time she already was the "GODDESS" or "ANGEL" her fanboys love so much. She was already perfect at the beginning and didn't make a single error during the story.
And that's why it's so uninteresting and flat.

So you like your characters selfish and confused. Got it. But see, I don't. You may like the idea of bad guys becoming good guys, but I'm not so enamored with it, myself. Especially if redemption is as cheap as it was for Flay. To me, redemption should involve more than some ambiguous epiphany. There also has to be commitment to do good. Conscious, deliberate choices to make sacrifices and take risks. Hard work and courage, both moral and physical.

Flay pretty much let events carry her. It's not "bad" in and of itself, but it cheapens her. Suddenly, without work on her part, she's supposedly a "good" person, and I'm supposed to applaud?

I'd have been a lot more impressed if she'd, say, bitten Azrael's gunhand off.


And again, Lacus being bad doesn't make Flay good.

I don't mind Lacus not being developped that much. GS wasn't about her. Neither was GSD.

I think you completely removed the dialogue Fllay and Kira had before Kira went MIA. Kira DID see through her act and that's why Fllay was furious.

Maybe. I rewatched their last conversation. It went
"Flay: Kira... Kira... Kira... I...
Kira: Sorry. Later."
Are you talking about something else?

And you forget her afterdeath scene. She asks for forgiveness, and Kira was confused as to why. Which means that, at best, he was subconsciously aware of her treachery and was hallucinating, at worst, that he sees dead people.

There is no need to prove that Kira and Lacus didn't love each other in GSEED since there is no single proof that Kira loved Lacus and the only proof that Lacus loved Kira was just before the end when she tried to kiss him and got refused. Until that point for all that matters she could have been in love with Athrun....

Er... No. She had an arranged bethrotal with him, and wasn't resisting it too much because she was a Good Girl.

but hey Athrun was already paired with Cagalli (since the obvious scene at the island) and Fukuda thought.....
"let's forget about all the development about Fllay+Kira i have done in the last 40eps and just pair together Kira and Lacus! After all Lacus is the most popular female character on Newtype so i guess it's ok.... i can come with a sorry excuse later on to justify this. Btw i have to get rid of Fllay.... her popularity is not high enough and her development is a threat to the perfect couple...."

There were hints of Kira x Lacus since they met. If you didn't see them blame your own damn self.

Kira and Fllay hadn't shared that much??? Did you completely skipped the episodes of GSEED?
I agree that after two years (TWO YEARS) Kira has probably recovered from the shock of losing his beloved Fllay.... but that's a completely different and sad story: Gundam Seed Destiny.

I don't count sex as that much.

Haunted by something? What was the trigger that made Kira REALLY mad against Raww? I think his guess is completely on target.

He might have been just as mad if that had been Kuzzey in that shuttle. Heck, he nearly killed his best friend because of Tolle's death. Are you going to argue for a Kira x Tolle x Kuzzey yaoi trio?

And I think what haunted him were all the deaths he'd seen and provoked, and his own occasional savagery. Guilt, not grief.

[Demongod86]

otacu, in Ep 28, I remember the sub saying "Fllay, it was a mistake. We shouldn't be together anymore." Unless someone can provide a screenshot of it saying otherwise...

And no, I really don't care for Fllay's changes. Would you care if a murderer repented after he slaughtered five kids? I don't think so. No, Fllay's sins aren't that bad, but cmon, everyone is just expected to forgive her for all the shit she did because she tried to change, and Lacus is completely unrealistic because she's good from the get go? Also, notice I said that Lacus STILL has human qualities. YES, she IS a very idealized version of a human being and isn't an everyday next-door girl. But there are people that possess some characteristics Lacus has. And I honestly do not think that a character that's a basketcase and a half makes for a realistic character. Yes, she cries, hates, screams, learns, changes, etc...but what the hell did Fllay change to anyway? As anh_minh said, she finally learned what everyone else did by episode 2. WAY TO GO! HURRAH, GO FLLAY! GO FLLAY!

Cut me a break. Fllay was completely destructive to Kira. Heck, look at Kira in GS (crying and blubbering all over the place, even after Freedom) to Kira in GSD (calm, collected, ascended thinking, and an all-around knight in shining armor--in this case a 60 foot tall suit of armor with more than a metal longsword for a weapon).

[Anh_Minh]

Hm. OK, so I see which conversation you guys meant, and you were right, Otacu: I'd forgotten it. I just rewatched it.

According to my sub, Kira said "Let's put an end to this. It was a mistake." I guess he meant he shouldn't have had sex with her while she was emotionally shaken and "vulnerable".

As for Flay - what I saw wasn't love, though she did feel sorry for him. I guess anger had worn off and didn't blind her anymore to the wrongness of what she was doing. What I saw was guilt, genuine compassion, and envy (because everyone felt sorry for Kira, but no one seemed to care about her problems, except Kira, whom she used so badly. Oh, and pride, too.

[otacu]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Fllay was the daughter of a man powerful enough to get himself invited on a warship going to the front. She's no little matchgirl.

Also, the concepts of "Flay", "honest" and "rely on her own power" so don't go together... (Well, no problem with "honest" and "rely on her own power". It's when you try adding "Flay" in the mix that it comes apart.)

FACT is that she didn't have a chance to use that little power she had at the beginning. She was all alone and she could rely only on her own power. She is no little matchgirl but it's almost a little matchgirl. On the other hand Lacus has EVERYTHING from the beginning like the little confindent Zaft princess she is. She has a little private army that follows her oders and protect her and can give top secret military mecha to the whoever she wants.

I know "honest" and "rely on her own power" sounds strange to you together with Fllay but that's a fact: she was all alone and with no support. Better open your eyes.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

She felt that something was wrong. The rest is speculation. Mostly, Kira told her "Gtg. Battle. TTYL."

Go check the scene with Natarle again... it's more than "something was wrong"

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I accept both as a kind of love. But neither as the pure, love-that-moves-mountain, till-death-does-us-part kind.

Honestly? Yes. Any adolescent romance is hard to accept as "sincere and pure love". Doubly and triply so for Flay.

Fllay's love was pure in the end. She recognized her sins and her errors and was eager to restart with Kira. It's no speculation she said that clearly.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

She was a sinner in search of redemption and forgiveness. Not to mention safety and fellowship, even as illusory a one as that found on Archangel.

I don't see a problem with seeking redempiton and forgivness. That's why her character was great because she recognised her errors and had the courage to admit it. That's why she changed and had one of the best character development in SEED. But Lacus fanboys still call her a bitch no matter what they see.... first impression is what they see: they don't want depth or evolutions in characters, they want ideals! Lacus was that: an perfect and ethereal ideal. No one cared for one of the most human and realistic characters in SEED since she was labelled as "BAD" from the beginning. So when she changed and underwent a solid development the fans all screamed "nooo stupid bitch you did wrong with poor Kira. Kira is better of with Lacus so she can give him uberstrong gundams to kick more and more ass!".

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Kira was naive enough to not see behind the facade. Even to the end he didn't know how she'd used him.

Are you kidding or are you serious? no really. How can you even say that? Fllay in episode 28 is aware that Kira has seen behind the facade and she tells CLEARLY that she has been used him so far. If you are trying being funny .... no you are not funny.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He wanted his fake Flay that was nice and thought of him. Because that's what he thought she was, which just goes to show what a dumbass he could be. Did Flay become like that, in the end? That's debatable. As for refusing Lacus - isn't that rather because:
- he wasn't in love with her,
- he hadn't had a clean break with Flay?
No big love necessary.

What's debatable? She was clearly in love with him. You have to remind that Fllay is selfish like every girl (a boy) on earth if she wanted to feel safe she could have just returned to earth. Natarle clearly said this and Fllay clearly refused the proposal: she wanted Kira! And that's a big thing for a girl that at the beginning was just trying to survive no matter what. The fact that she loved him is not debatable.
As for Lacus you give two plausible options but the second one is highly improbable. When we see Kira trying to get closer to Fllay i highly doubt that those are the actions and facial expressions of a man who is planning to a have a clean break with a girl.... THAT's highly debatable. The most probable reason is that he still loved her.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah. Took her fifty episodes to arrive to the knowledge all the good guys started with. Good job!

That's besides the point. You are just giving a judgement and not understanding the character. Characters in a story need development and changes.... there is no interest in watching flat, perfect and static characters (like GSD) ... except for fanboyism. Fllay was a truly great character who in the end showed us how much she has grown. Kira too. Cagalli too. Athrun too... everyone changed and learned something in 50 episodes.... the only one who didn't learn a thing was Lacus: since she already knew everything from the beginning!

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The only one to not see through her. The one who made her feel safe. The one who could forgive her, once someone gets around to explain to him he was a tool. (Because he's the one sinned against, only his forgiveness is relevant.)

As above check episode 28 again. Do i need to repeat myself ad infinitum? He saw through her. Do i need to give you the link to youtube?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So you like your characters selfish and confused. Got it. But see, I don't. And again, Lacus being bad doesn't make Flay good.

Yes i like charachters selfish and confused who grow and reedem themself in the end: just like Kira, Fllay, Cagalli and Athrun. What's wrong with that?
Is character development so strange nowadays?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I don't mind Lacus not being developped that much. GS wasn't about her. Neither was GSD.

Well... that's your opinion since everyone (fans and authors) think Lacus is one of the most important characters of GS and GSD.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Maybe. I rewatched their last conversation. It went
"Flay: Kira... Kira... Kira... I...
Kira: Sorry. Later."
Are you talking about something else?

Yes, ..... sigh.... episode 28 when Kira is waiting for Fllay in his room. The conversation you listed is AFTER that when Fllay was already beginning to accept her feeling for Kira but he had to go out in battle.... and went MIA.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And you forget her afterdeath scene. She asks for forgiveness, and Kira was confused as to why. Which means that, at best, he was subconsciously aware of her treachery and was hallucinating, at worst, that he sees dead people.

What "subconciously aware"??? .... sigh... oh well i guess you are at least slowly beginning to understand he was fully aware of her treachery since long ago.... it's an improvement i guess.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Er... No. She had an arranged bethrotal with him, and wasn't resisting it too much because she was a Good Girl.

So in case she didn't met Kira Lacus would have married Athrun just to be "good girl"? All in all it doesn't really matter since Lacus never showed she loved Kira before of that point. She was just nice to everyone. And that's not even an important point since the focus is Kira-Fllay. Kira never saw Lacus as a potential lover in GS. GSD is another matter.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

There were hints of Kira x Lacus since they met. If you didn't see them blame your own damn self.

Lacus was nice to Kira and had kind words for him and later helped him. So what's the difference between Kira and Athrun? Lacus in her perfection was just nice and kind to everyone. When you are nice to everyone in the world from plants to humans like some kind of saint or Goddess is a bit difficult to tell if you are really loving some "that way". I didn't missed the points of KiraxLacus i just don't see them as "hints" since they are overwhelmed by her nice nature to every single being.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I don't count sex as that much.

You should count the psycological scars of war, the fact that both they lost people important to them, the fact that they both were alone and isolated and found a safe "shelter" in each others embrace, that they shared love and hate.... KiraxFllay shared a LOT of things.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He might have been just as mad if that had been Kuzzey in that shuttle. Heck, he nearly killed his best friend because of Tolle's death. Are you going to argue for a Kira x Tolle x Kuzzey yaoi trio?

That's more than enough.... that just demonstrated that Kira really cared for Fllay despite all her flaws (and he knew about her flaws). Tolle was one of his closest friend. Fllay was his lover. That's why he went berserk.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And I think what haunted him were all the deaths he'd seen and provoked, and his own occasional savagery. Guilt, not grief.

That's true of course but given the fact that he still loved Fllay at the end of GS he was still mourning her death. After 2 years he was able to forget about her but that's it: only after 2 years of peace and meditation with a hot body like Lacus next to him that was only waiting for him to accept her feelings.


In the end most of people give a rather superficial judgement of Fllay's character based on the first impression and IGNORING the development later on. I guess people just don't like dynamic characters and are more attracted by "ideals" who can satisfy pure fanboyism. That's the case of Lacus and Kira (of GSD) who still are always at the top of Newtype polls.
I mean.... Lacus.... a static and flat character (this being a fact not an opinion: my opinion is that she is boring, fact is that she is flat and onedimensional) has huge fanbase and is the leading female character of the Gundam saga. On the other hand Fllay that showed us in her faults and errors one of the most interesting character development is not even in the first 10 positions. We really have to think about what Gundam fans are (or are looking for) right now...


EDIT

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Hm. OK, so I see which conversation you guys meant, and you were right, Otacu: I'd forgotten it. I just rewatched it.

According to my sub, Kira said "Let's put an end to this. It was a mistake." I guess he meant he shouldn't have had sex with her while she was emotionally shaken and "vulnerable".

As for Flay - what I saw wasn't love, though she did feel sorry for him. I guess anger had worn off and didn't blind her anymore to the wrongness of what she was doing. What I saw was guilt, genuine compassion, and envy (because everyone felt sorry for Kira, but no one seemed to care about her problems, except Kira, whom she used so badly. Oh, and pride, too.

Ok that's just the first step in understanding Fllay's character. The next one is just before Kira was going out to fight (and kill Nicol). Next step is Fllay being yet again alone and trying to get togeter with Ssigh again. After that there is the turning point and the scene with Natarle on Dominion is the peak and very explicit. I will now search the episode with Natarle.

I see we can come down to an agreement since you don't want to ignore character development on purpose like a Lacus fanboy. I was wrong in my judgment.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by otacu

FACT is that she didn't have a chance to use that little power she had at the beginning. She was all alone and she could rely only on her own power. She is no little matchgirl but it's almost a little matchgirl. On the other hand Lacus has EVERYTHING from the beginning like the little confindent Zaft princess she is. She has a little private army that follows her oders and protect her and can give top secret military mecha to the whoever she wants.

I know "honest" and "rely on her own power" sounds strange to you together with Fllay but that's a fact: she was all alone and with no support. Better open your eyes.

They're open. And what they see is a girl who resorted to high school tactics for getting a lackey. She probably did similar things before the war reached Heliopolis. She seems the type.

And no, I don't consider "using Kira and his friends" as "relying on her own power".

Go check the scene with Natarle again... it's more than "something was wrong"

*Sigh* Which scene? I don't know the whole show by heart.

Fllay's love was pure in the end. She recognized her sins and her errors and was eager to restart with Kira. It's no speculation she said that clearly.

Being used for redemption may not be quite as bad as being used for vengeance, but it's still being used.

I don't see a problem with seeking redempiton and forgivness.

Neither do I. But it makes your claims that her love was pure rather airy.

That's why her character was great because she recognised her errors and had the courage to admit it. That's why she changed and had one of the best character development in SEED.

Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. I won't recognize her "courage" till she actually comes clean with Kira, but of course now she'll never get the chance.

But Lacus fanboys still call her a bitch no matter what they see.... first impression is what they see: they don't want depth or evolutions in characters, they want ideals! Lacus was that: an perfect and ethereal ideal. No one cared for one of the most human and realistic characters in SEED since she was labelled as "BAD" from the beginning. So when she changed and underwent a solid development the fans all screamed "nooo stupid bitch you did wrong with poor Kira. Kira is better of with Lacus so she can give him uberstrong gundams to kick more and more ass!".

First, stop it with the Lacus fanboy comments. They're not helping your argument. Second, whatever Lacus is or was has no bearing on what Flay was. Third... before your answer, I edited my post to expand on what I thought of redemption. Let me quote it here:

So you like your characters selfish and confused. Got it. But see, I don't. You may like the idea of bad guys becoming good guys, but I'm not so enamored with it, myself. Especially if redemption is as cheap as it was for Flay. To me, redemption should involve more than some ambiguous epiphany. There also has to be commitment to do good. Conscious, deliberate choices to make sacrifices and take risks. Hard work and courage, both moral and physical.

Flay pretty much let events carry her. It's not "bad" in and of itself, but it cheapens her. Suddenly, without work on her part, she's supposedly a "good" person, and I'm supposed to applaud?

I'd have been a lot more impressed if she'd, say, bitten Azrael's gunhand off.

Are you kidding or are you serious? no really. How can you even say that? Fllay in episode 28 is aware that Kira has seen behind the facade and she tells CLEARLY that she has been used him so far. If you are trying being funny .... no you are not funny.

I'm quite serious. What set her off was the suspicion Kira didn't get with her because of her charms, but because he, being the nice guy he was, pitied her instead of thinking only of himself like her. She never said a word about using him, though she did acknowledge his pain.

What's debatable? She was clearly in love with him. You have to remind that Fllay is selfish like every girl (a boy) on earth if she wanted to feel safe she could have just returned to earth. Natarle clearly said this and Fllay clearly refused the proposal: she wanted Kira! And that's a big thing for a girl that at the beginning was just trying to survive no matter what. The fact that she loved him is not debatable.

What's debatable is that she became the nice, caring girl Kira thought she was. And yes, she wanted Kira. Maybe even loved him. But what I'm questioning is the purity and depth of that love.

As for Lacus you give two plausible options but the second one is highly improbable. When we see Kira trying to get closer to Fllay i highly doubt that those are the actions and facial expressions of a man who is planning to a have a clean break with a girl.... THAT's highly debatable. The most probable reason is that he still loved her.

They're not two options. They're two concatenating reasons, each being sufficient. They mean he didn't need to love Flay to refuse the kiss. And I wasn't saying he was planning to have a clean break with Flay. Merely that he thought that kissing other girls would be cheating on the one who was still, at the time, his girlfriend.

That's besides the point. You are just giving a judgement and not understanding the character.

I understand her and that's why I'm making a character judgement. You can understand her and still not like her. In fact, I find it helps a lot.

Characters in a story need development and changes....

Not necessarily. They need to give us reasons to care about them (either positively or negatively). Change is quite optional.

there is no interest in watching flat, perfect and static characters (like GSD) ... except for fanboyism. Fllay was a truly great character who in the end showed us how much she has grown.

In my self-quote I explained what I thought of her growth.

Kira too. Cagalli too. Athrun too... everyone changed and learned something in 50 episodes.... the only one who didn't learn a thing was Lacus: since she already knew everything from the beginning!

The problem with Lacus is that we don't know much of what she was at the beginning, and don't know much of what she is at the end. As I said, the story isn't about her, even if she plays a key-part. She's akin to the coordinator technology: it has an important role in making the story, but the story's not about it. It's about Kira, Athrun, the absurdity of war, courage, ideals...

As above check episode 28 again. Do i need to repeat myself ad infinitum? He saw through her. Do i need to give you the link to youtube?

Yeah, just rewatched it. And I don't draw the same conclusions you did.

Yes i like charachters selfish and confused who grow and reedem themself in the end: just like Kira, Fllay, Cagalli and Athrun. What's wrong with that?
Is character development so strange nowadays?

Neither Kira, Cagalli, nor Athrun are selfish. If Kira was selfish, he'd have taken Strike and gone to Zaft. It'd have been a lot simpler for him. The whole basis of Cagalli's character is that she put high minded ideals and the interest of the "little people" before hers, but doesn't think things through with the pragmatism she needs as a ruler or ruler's heir. Athrun, too, never really fought for himself.

Well... that's your opinion since everyone (fans and authors) think Lacus is one of the most important characters of GS and GSD.

See higher for what I think of Lacus' part in the story. At the end of GSD, she may be the most important person of the in-story universe, but the story wasn't about her. About her ideals, at most. Maybe.

Yes, ..... sigh.... episode 28 when Kira is waiting for Fllay in his room. The conversation you listed is AFTER that when Fllay was already beginning to accept her feeling for Kira but he had to go out in battle.... and went MIA.

See my last post.

What "subconciously aware"??? .... sigh... oh well i guess you are at least slowly beginning to understand he was fully aware of her treachery since long ago.... it's an improvement i guess.

That scene pretty much tells me he bought her act till the end, though.

So in case she didn't met Kira Lacus would have married Athrun just to be "good girl"?

It was the done thing in Plant. Haven't you paid attention to the discussion on Coordinator fertility?

All in all it doesn't really matter since Lacus never showed she loved Kira before of that point. She was just nice to everyone. And that's not even an important point since the focus is Kira-Fllay. Kira never saw Lacus as a potential lover in GS. GSD is another matter.

They weren't really what one would consider "hints" from the in-story persepective, no. But the way it was exposed (I'm thinking in particular of her conversation with Athrun where they talked about Kira) was what I viewer would call a hint.

Lacus was nice to Kira and had kind words for him and later helped him. So what's the difference between Kira and Athrun? Lacus in her perfection was just nice and kind to everyone. When you are nice to everyone in the world from plants to humans like some kind of saint or Goddess is a bit difficult to tell if you are really loving some "that way". I didn't missed the points of KiraxLacus i just don't see them as "hints" since they are overwhelmed by her nice nature to every single being.

Lacus helped Kira find some peace and comfort when she was aboard the AA. But she didn't do anything for Athrun till he held her at gunpoint. See, that was a hint too. Athrun and Lacus got along, but they didn't really need each other, or brought each other anything (unless you count the haros). Lacus and Kira helped each other in a difficult situation. (Not saying Lacus and Athrun wouldn't have helped each other, but the occasion didn't come up till later.)

You should count the psycological scars of war, the fact that both they lost people important to them, the fact that they both were alone and isolated and found a safe "shelter" in each others embrace, that they shared love and hate.... KiraxFllay shared a LOT of things.

Kira never hated anyone except Rau, whom for some reason Flay almost seemed to like. Well, maybe he hated Yzak at some point, too, but Flay didn't except in the "all coordinators must die" sense.

That's more than enough.... that just demonstrated that Kira really cared for Fllay despite all her flaws (and he knew about her flaws).

Besides her coquetishness, vulnerability to seasickness, and neediness? Not really.

Tolle was one of his closest friend. Fllay was his lover. That's why he went berserk.

Yes. But no need to assume big love from above brought by a dove in an alcove.

That's true of course but given the fact that he still loved Fllay at the end of GS he was still mourning her death. After 2 years he was able to forget about her but that's it: only after 2 years of peace and meditation with a hot body like Lacus next to him that was only waiting for him to accept her feelings.

OK, and what's Athrun and Cagalli's excuse?

Relationships progressed slowly because they were off-camera and because, well, he was still messed up by the war and knew it.

In the end most of people give a rather superficial judgement of Fllay's character based on the first impression and IGNORING the development later on. I guess people just don't like dynamic characters and are more attracted by "ideals" who can satisfy pure fanboyism. That's the case of Lacus and Kira (of GSD) who still are always at the top of Newtype polls.
I mean.... Lacus.... a static and flat character (this being a fact not an opinion: my opinion is that she is boring, fact is that she is flat and onedimensional) has huge fanbase and is the leading female character of these Gundam saga. On the other hand Fllay that showed us in her faults and errors one of the most interesting character development is not even in the first 10 positions. We really have to think about what Gundam fans are (or are looking for) right now...

Lacus is anything but flat and onedimensional. It's just that your analysis of Lacus is superficial. You content yourself with what's obviously shown. (Not that most of Lacus' fanboys aren't the same.)

[Demongod86]

otacu, since you seem to be dodging this point, let's use a bit of reductio ad absurdum:

A guy kills five kids in cold blood...kills them, mutilates their corpses, the works...he gets ten life sentences. Then, in jail he changes into this guy that seeks redemption or whatever...does it MATTER by that point? The kids are dead.

Same case with Kira. His virginity is gone, he already went on a berserker killing spree, was already scarred for life with Fllay going nuts over him "letting" her father die, etc. and soforth. Yes, she changed. Yes, she sought redemption.

The real question is: does it matter? Hell no. THE DAMAGE WAS DONE. She already made everything so much worse from the getgo with her OMFG <3 KIRA (not, hehehe) BS on the archangel, and even went so far as to nearly kill Deakka with a stray gun...redemption shmedemption, no, it's not just first impressions, it's first half of the entire GS (more like 28 eps) of GS that made me think Fllay is a piece of crap and no matter how much she changes, she doesn't hold a candle to Lacus.

Yes, she grew, but you're honestly preaching to the choir...people that are happy that she grew will be happy, but people that don't give a rat's ass or really don't think it's enough to make up for the damage she did won't really change their thinking either. In my opinion, her growth at the end does NOT absolve her of any sins she committed, especially stealing Kira's virginity (which should have been his and Lacus's gifts to each other!).

As for Fllay being realistic, she's just as unrealistic as Lacus is by your arguments, just the other way. Whereas Lacus is an angel, Fllay is nothing short of a devil. While Lacus may be on cloud nine and have access to intuition on par with that of Yoda, that's what the creators were showing, and with Fllay, they were showing the direct opposite. They were showing a devil in contrast to Lacus's angelic traits. Fllay was the direct opposite of Lacus. She was selfish, mean, racist, close-minded, weak-hearted, fickle (SAI, COME BACK TO ME NOW THAT KIRA'S DEAD!), the works. There is a difference between realistic (read: nothing amazing) and off the wall self-styled-princess-bitch of the archangel. In fact, she was so off the wall that even the EA superiors noticed that and yanked her off the AA so she could preach about how evil coordinators were, which got her captured, and eventually whacked. So you see, otacu, her fate was sealed the moment she was removed from AA (ep 31 was it?), meaning that even WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE SERIES, whatever changes happened to her DID NOT MATTER. Her fate was SEALED ALREADY by that point.

Let's look at some other plays...take Hamlet for instance...what if, after he killed Polonius, he tried to become some sort of saint? Laertes would still have wanted his head on a platter. Oedipus? The entire PLAY revolved around how good of a king he was except for the fact that he killed his father, which eventually came back to bite him in the ass ANYWAY. The fact that he was a good king and all was second nature.

Or how about the most FAMOUS example of sin coming home to roost? Since a current anime is even dealing with that issue (in a very stylish way might I add), why not look at KING ARTHUR?! He was a gift from the heavens themselves. Selfless, innocent, the works...but along comes Morgause, screws him, gives birth to Mordred, and even though it was completely accidental and Arthur was a great king, Camelot falls ANYWAY and guess what? Mordred fatally wounds Arthur while being killed himself on Arthur's sword.

Does it matter that Arthur was so amazing in all other ways? It didn't do him a drop of good in actually living, and later on, Mordred became probably his biggest regret. (Ever read Once and Future King, by TH White?).

Except unlike Arthur, Fllay wasn't seduced. She DID the seducing. It was all Fllay's fault that Fllay got into all of this bullshit, and after that, it didn't matter how she changed. Her only--if you can call it that--redemption--for all of the crap she did was to get slaughtered by Rau's dragoon and put Kira in the berserker state needed to take Rau down. So if you'd like, Fllay did find her final redemption that should leave everyone happy...you for her being redeemed, and me for burning for the irrevocable sins she committed already.

[Miles Teg]

Originally Posted by otacu

That's true of course but given the fact that he still loved Fllay at the end of GS he was still mourning her death.

About the fact that Kira was in love with Flay, we have a response from an interview of Fukuda (23/12/2003 at Kyoto University)

The question was "Who does Kira like?" And the response was "He doesn't really like either of them (Fllay and Lacus)."

http://aeug.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_aeug_archive.html

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Miles Teg

About the fact that Kira was in love with Flay, we have a response from an interview of Fukuda (23/12/2003 at Kyoto University)

The question was "Who does Kira like?" And the response was "He doesn't really like either of them (Fllay and Lacus)."

http://aeug.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_aeug_archive.html

Fukuda is full of shit. End of story.

[Anh_Minh]

That was about GS. I kinda agree with Fukuda there. (And not just because he directed the show.)

[monster]

Originally Posted by Miles Teg

About the fact that Kira was in love with Flay, we have a response from an interview of Fukuda (23/12/2003 at Kyoto University)

The question was "Who does Kira like?" And the response was "He doesn't really like either of them (Fllay and Lacus)."

http://aeug.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_aeug_archive.html

Of course, at the end of GS, Kira had detached all connection to Fllay other than guilt and hasn't quited moved on to Lacus yet, only considering her as a friend. But in time, and especially by GSD, I believe he had grown to love Lacus.

[T.V.]

Originally Posted by Miles Teg

About the fact that Kira was in love with Flay, we have a response from an interview of Fukuda (23/12/2003 at Kyoto University)

The question was "Who does Kira like?" And the response was "He doesn't really like either of them (Fllay and Lacus)."

Heh.. He's just BSing the fans.

C'mon, he has sex with one girl and seems to be romantically involved with another.
Even then fans come asking if Kira actually liked them.

Doesn't look like Kira is not into them, now does it?
(Even if it was just a fling in the case of Flay.)

[otacu]

This is why i was talking about fanboyism earlier

Originally Posted by Demongod86

otacu, since you seem to be dodging this point, let's use a bit of reductio ad absurdum:

A guy kills five kids in cold blood...kills them, mutilates their corpses, the works...he gets ten life sentences. Then, in jail he changes into this guy that seeks redemption or whatever...does it MATTER by that point? The kids are dead.

Same case with Kira. His virginity is gone, he already went on a berserker killing spree, was already scarred for life with Fllay going nuts over him "letting" her father die, etc. and soforth. Yes, she changed. Yes, she sought redemption.

Dodging the point? You are making her per absurdum looking like a cold blooded multiple killer who enjoys mutilate corpses! Fllay was in fact the character less responsible of bloodshed in the entire main cast of characters: she didn't kill anybody . I'm not dodging any point: i have already said that she was at fault in the beginning and so were every character: Kira, Athrun, Cagalli, Murrue, Natarle... everyone was wrong in the beginning and was searching for an answer. They even killed lots of people with their own hands and admitted that what they were doing was wrong. But did they get the fan's hate for this? No, of course they didn't stole precious “kira's viriginity”! It was bad Fllay's fault! A really grave sin since Kira didn't enjoy it one bit... he was raped by force by a muscular girl who was one year younger than him! Several times! Fllay was senteced to death by fans cause she stole precious Kira's virginity.... it's funny!

Originally Posted by Demongod86

The real question is: does it matter? Hell no. THE DAMAGE WAS DONE. She already made everything so much worse from the getgo with her OMFG <3 KIRA (not, hehehe) BS on the archangel, and even went so far as to nearly kill Deakka with a stray gun...redemption shmedemption, no, it's not just first impressions, it's first half of the entire GS (more like 28 eps) of GS that made me think Fllay is a piece of crap and no matter how much she changes, she doesn't hold a candle to Lacus.
Yes, she grew, but you're honestly preaching to the choir...people that are happy that she grew will be happy, but people that don't give a rat's ass or really don't think it's enough to make up for the damage she did won't really change their thinking either. In my opinion, her growth at the end does NOT absolve her of any sins she committed, especially stealing Kira's virginity (which should have been his and Lacus's gifts to each other!).

Of course to Lacus fanboys (sorry Anh_Minh but if this isn't fanboyism ....) it doesn't really matter. Who cares about Kira-Fllay's solid and constant character development? She stole Kira's virginity ("which should have been his and Lacus's gifts to each other!!!!!" ). Ha ha ha it's completely ridicolous.
Fllay in her rage nearly killed Dearka .... but Mirriallia was doing the same. Was she charged of “attempted homicide” like Fllay by the fans? No, of course since Mirriallia was ok.... she didn't stole precious Kira's viriginity. Sorry if i repeat this but you have repeated this point several times and it's really funny.
In the end Lacus fanboys don't care about how much Fllay changed during the entire series... the original sin was more than enough to sentence her to death penalty. Kira was Lacus's toy even before they fell in love. It's so funny that Fllay is sentenced to death penalty for such a light crime and despite her obvious growth and development when other characters have committed even bigger sins (and killed countelss people) and no one was hated half much as Fllay. I guess stealing Kira's virginity is much worse than kill hundreds of people.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

As for Fllay being realistic, she's just as unrealistic as Lacus is by your arguments, just the other way. Whereas Lacus is an angel, Fllay is nothing short of a devil. While Lacus may be on cloud nine and have access to intuition on par with that of Yoda, that's what the creators were showing, and with Fllay, they were showing the direct opposite. They were showing a devil in contrast to Lacus's angelic traits. Fllay was the direct opposite of Lacus. She was selfish, mean, racist, close-minded, weak-hearted, fickle (SAI, COME BACK TO ME NOW THAT KIRA'S DEAD!), the works. There is a difference between realistic (read: nothing amazing) and off the wall self-styled-princess-bitch of the archangel. In fact, she was so off the wall that even the EA superiors noticed that and yanked her off the AA so she could preach about how evil coordinators were, which got her captured, and eventually whacked. So you see, otacu, her fate was sealed the moment she was removed from AA (ep 31 was it?), meaning that even WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE SERIES, whatever changes happened to her DID NOT MATTER. Her fate was SEALED ALREADY by that point.

It's really funny how you can say that Fllay wasn't realistic. That's human nature: there are tons of people who are selfish, mean, racists, close-minded, weak-hearted etc... just like Fllay, Kira and Athrun (who were close minded), Cagalli(who was selfishly having her own private terrorist war), Natarle, etc but there is not a single Lacus. I suggest to open your eyes on the world: it's a Fllay & co world not a Lacus world. It's no idealistic world. Most of Gseed characters started full of flaws and made errors during the series but they evolved in the end and found their own path. Kira did so, Athrun did so, Cagalli did so, Dearka, Natarle, Fllay..... but Fllay was already sentenced to death beacuse she stole Kira's viriginity.... she was the only one that in the fans eyes was not worth to be saved. Like you said it didn't really matter what she did afterwards... her “sin” was too heavy.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Let's look at some other plays...take Hamlet for instance...what if, after he killed Polonius, he tried to become some sort of saint? Laertes would still have wanted his head on a platter. Oedipus? The entire PLAY revolved around how good of a king he was except for the fact that he killed his father, which eventually came back to bite him in the ass ANYWAY. The fact that he was a good king and all was second nature.

Or how about the most FAMOUS example of sin coming home to roost? Since a current anime is even dealing with that issue (in a very stylish way might I add), why not look at KING ARTHUR?! He was a gift from the heavens themselves. Selfless, innocent, the works...but along comes Morgause, screws him, gives birth to Mordred, and even though it was completely accidental and Arthur was a great king, Camelot falls ANYWAY and guess what? Mordred fatally wounds Arthur while being killed himself on Arthur's sword.

Does it matter that Arthur was so amazing in all other ways? It didn't do him a drop of good in actually living, and later on, Mordred became probably his biggest regret. (Ever read Once and Future King, by TH White?).

Except unlike Arthur, Fllay wasn't seduced. She DID the seducing. It was all Fllay's fault that Fllay got into all of this bullshit, and after that, it didn't matter how she changed. Her only--if you can call it that--redemption--for all of the crap she did was to get slaughtered by Rau's dragoon and put Kira in the berserker state needed to take Rau down. So if you'd like, Fllay did find her final redemption that should leave everyone happy...you for her being redeemed, and me for burning for the irrevocable sins she committed already.

Other plays doesn't really help you if all you do is point out that Fllay is guilty of seducing Kira and stealing Kira's viriginity (who was already Lacus's possession LOL). You (and other Lacus fanboys) are just sentencing her to death for “the irrevocable sins” ignoring the changes and the later redemption. Other characters with sins and hands full of blood who repented in the end were not sentenced to death or hated that much.... why? You already gave the answer (the virginity).

[otacu]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They're open. And what they see is a girl who resorted to high school tactics for getting a lackey. She probably did similar things before the war reach Heliopolis. She seems the type.
And no, I don't consider "using Kira and his friends" as "relying on her own power".

No? Why? She used what she had. You can disapprove but she definetely was relying on her own power since she didn't have a personal army at her oders. You see a “ a girl who resorted to high school tactics”... well, she IS a high school girl. That's why she is human that's the beauty of her character. She is a 15 old girl and she act in a plausible and realist way not like an angel who at the age of 15 has already reached nirvana and knows absolute Truth.
But that's fine to disapprove her behaviour at first. That's why there is character development and character growth. That's why Cagalli at first is just a selfish and simple minded girl who searched her private little terrorist war despite her responsibilities (like she later realized). Or Kira who at some point was completely focused on killing as much enemies as he could... or Athrun enraged by revenge... or Yzak who coldblooded killed a pod of civilians... or Natarle who followed military orders no matter what...and so on.... they were all wrong in the beginning and we disapproved. Later they develop and understand their errors. Fllay was wrong in the beginning and that's perfectly fine.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

*Sigh* Which scene? I don't know the whole show by heart.

It was ep46 or 47 ... if i recall it correctly.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Being used for redemption may not be quite as bad as being used for vengeance, but it's still being used.
Neither do I. But it makes your claims that her love was pure rather airy.
Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. I won't recognize her "courage" till she actually comes clean with Kira, but of course now she'll never get the chance.

I'll leave these for a later explanation on Kira-Fllay's development. It's futile to continue to discuss if there is no real basis.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

First, stop it with the Lacus fanboy comments. They're not helping your argument. Second, whatever Lacus is or was has no bearing on what Flay was. Third... before your answer, I edited my post to expand on what I thought of redemption. Let me quote it here:

Yes, i was wrong in using the Lacus faboy comments in YOUR case.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm quite serious. What set her off was the suspicion Kira didn't get with her because of her charms, but because he, being the nice guy he was, pitied her instead of thinking only of himself like her. She never said a word about using him, though she did acknowledge his pain.

No true. In episode 28 he said that they were wrong to begin with. BOTH of them! So he clearly saw though her act. And this is really important element like you said earlier. All your reasoning was based on the fact that he wasn't aware of her true self until the end. But that's not true. Kira knew all along. In the ep 28 it's perfectly clear and explicit. In the final episode it's again remarked (you said he only he was “subconciously aware” of that... no, he was aware of that). Maybe a screenshot will help. It's plural and Kira said clearly “bokutachi”.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

What's debatable is that she became the nice, caring girl Kira thought she was. And yes, she wanted Kira. Maybe even loved him. But what I'm questioning is the purity and depth of that love.

Ok. that's fine. In the end she loved him but you are questioning if that was a pure love and how depth it was. The answer later. But if you are questioning the purity and depth of that love we could not even be sure of the love between Cagalli and Athrun or Lacus and Kira later on.... but that's fine. In the end the important point is that they loved each other.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They're not two options. They're two concatenating reasons, each being sufficient. They mean he didn't need to love Flay to refuse the kiss. And I wasn't saying he was planning to have a clean break with Flay. Merely that he thought that kissing other girls would be cheating on the one who was still, at the time, his girlfriend.

Fine. So the answer to why Kira didn't kissed Lacus is postponed to later when it will be cleared how he felt about Fllay.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I understand her and that's why I'm making a character judgement. You can understand her and still not like her. In fact, I find it helps a lot.

Still you missed vital elements in Fllay-Kira development.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Not necessarily. They need to give us reasons to care about them (either positively or negatively). Change is quite optional.
In my self-quote I explained what I thought of her growth.

There were more than enough reasons to care about Fllay and Kira. See further in the post.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The problem with Lacus is that we don't know much of what she was at the beginning, and don't know much of what she is at the end. As I said, the story isn't about her, even if she plays a key-part. She's akin to the coordinator technology: it has an important role in making the story, but the story's not about it. It's about Kira, Athrun, the absurdity of war, courage, ideals...

Like you made plausible speculations of Fllay's past (at the beginning of the post) we can make completely plausible speculations on Lacus's past. She was the same. Athrun knew her before and the Lacus at the beginning of the series is the Lacus he knew. In the end Lacus didn't change during the series: she always was the perfect angel with poker face with all the answer we saw at the beginning when Kira handed her to Athrun.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, just rewatched it. And I don't draw the same conclusions you did.

Please rewatch it again. Like i said above, Kira said they were both at faults.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Neither Kira, Cagalli, nor Athrun are selfish. If Kira was selfish, he'd have taken Strike and gone to Zaft. It'd have been a lot simpler for him. The whole basis of Cagalli's character is that she put high minded ideals and the interest of the "little people" before hers, but doesn't think things through with the pragmatism she needs as a ruler or ruler's heir. Athrun, too, never really fought for himself.

They still fought for their own idea and to achieve their objectives... and they were completely wrong in the beginning. That's why i said i like character development: they understood their errors and redeemed themselves in the end.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

See higher for what I think of Lacus' part in the story. At the end of GSD, she may be the most important person of the in-story universe, but the story wasn't about her. About her ideals, at most. Maybe.

For all that matter it was even clear who the main character was in GSD.... the point is that in GS she was one of the most important character in the story at the same level of Cagalli, Athrun, Fllay and few others. If you ask to fans or authors “who are the main characters of GS?” Lacus is there.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

That scene pretty much tells me he bought her act till the end, though.

Ok screenshot really needed.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It was the done thing in Plant. Haven't you paid attention to the discussion on Coordinator fertility?

Yes i was paying attention. So i guess Athrun and Lacus would have married without love... now THIS really made Lacus's ability to love questionable....LOL

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They weren't really what one would consider "hints" from the in-story persepective, no. But the way it was exposed (I'm thinking in particular of her conversation with Athrun where they talked about Kira) was what I viewer would call a hint.

It's still highly questionable and that's why. Lacus had always been kind to every single being ... she was kind even to AA crew when they treated her like a “strange creature” and she was kind even to Fllay who was openly hostile to her. All she did was to prepare her plan. In the theater scene all Lacus and Athrun talked about was Lacus's plan and she was trying to convince him in joining her and Kira. It's a very bland hint imo. She was just recruiting more manpower.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Lacus helped Kira find some peace and comfort when she was aboard the AA. But she didn't do anything for Athrun till he held her at gunpoint. See, that was a hint too. Athrun and Lacus got along, but they didn't really need each other, or brought each other anything (unless you count the haros). Lacus and Kira helped each other in a difficult situation. (Not saying Lacus and Athrun wouldn't have helped each other, but the occasion didn't come up till later.)

But so did she for everyone. She helped everyone to find some peace and comfort. If you are kind to everyone there is no reason to think that Kira was special for sentimental reason. To use your own reasoning... she was still engaged at the moment. There is no hints to say she loved Kira at that point. The first time we could see she loved Kira was when she comforted him on Eternal after Kira discovered Fllay was alive. Athrun went outside with Cagalli leaving the two alone and recognizing Lacus's feelings and breaking his engagement. That's episode 46-47!!!

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Kira never hated anyone except Rau, whom for some reason Flay almost seemed to like. Well, maybe he hated Yzak at some point, too, but Flay didn't except in the "all coordinators must die" sense.

So? The point was that Fllay and Kira shared a lot of time and experiences together. Love and Hate was a reference to Kira and Fllay since Fllay hated Kira at some point.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Besides her coquetishness, vulnerability to seasickness, and neediness? Not really.

Again. Rewatch ep 28.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes. But no need to assume big love from above brought by a dove in an alcove.

There was sincere love. The depth is left at your judgement like in every other relationship. The importat thing is that she sincerely loved him.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

OK, and what's Athrun and Cagalli's excuse?

What's Athrun and Cagalli's excuse for what? For their love? For their breaking up?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Relationships progressed slowly because they were off-camera and because, well, he was still messed up by the war and knew it.

AND he was still thinking about Fllay. It's perfectly plausible.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Lacus is anything but flat and onedimensional. It's just that your analysis of Lacus is superficial. You content yourself with what's obviously shown. (Not that most of Lacus' fanboys aren't the same.)

I'm eager to listen to your Lacus's analysis then. It's not that i like her... i just don't find her insteresting.

And NOW down to the meat. Fllay+Kira relationship. Step by step since a lot of people enjoy conveniently ignoring scenes (or just didn't recall all the scenes)

First episode. Fllay is Ssigh fiancee. Fllay is one year younger than Kira and co and they attend the same school. From the first scenes it's clearly hinted that Kira has a big crush on her but being the nice guy he is, he doesn't want to interfere with his close friend Ssigh of course. On the other hand we see that Fllay like a normal 15year old high school girl enjoys play around with friends and know that Kira has a crush on her: but this doesn't matter to her, she just enjoy being flattered and loved since she is a spoiled rich girl. That's the starting point.
Netxt heliopolis is destroyed. Fllay loses her home and her friends. She is all alone and when she get rescued she goes and embraces the only one who could make her feel safe: Ssigh not Kira. She doesn't even know he is a coordinator so she doesn't really hate or like him and she doesn't need him.
Next step Fllay discovers that Kira is a coordinator so now he is despised. But the trigger is the father's death now she is completely alone: family is gone, home is gone, close friends is gone and she is aboard a ship in the middle of the war. That's when she thought of using Kira's abilities for her plan. Since she doesn't have a gundam to bribe him and make him fight for her she uses the only weapon she had: the crush Kira has on her and the rest is history. At this point Fllay hate all the coordinator and wouldn't really mind seeing all of them in dust: this will change drastically later on. Fllay thinks that Kira is not fighting seriously since he is a coordinator himself and doesn't understand his pain in fighting a war.
Next we see Fllay tending to Kira in the cockpit and during the day. She is still just taking care of her “weapon” but she now clearly see how he is isolated and suffering (one thing she failed to realize earlier) and will remark this later in ep28.
Now they are on Orb. During family visits time she is the only one who is completely alone and isolated: she is the only one who doesn't have a family or anyone close to her. She return to her room and find Kira. She discovers that after all there is someone who is close to her and who loves her but now she is feeling guilty cause it's the same person she treated wrong and manipulated. She tries to take refuge in the pity element but Kira says cleary she is wrong: it's not pity. He says “We're wrong to begin with” and makes clear that he realized he was just being used and he saw her true self and still cared for her. But Fllay cannot accept that and ask “What? What's that?” she cannot accept the Kira's Love since she knows she doesn't deserve it and runs away. Note that's she is slowing open herself to Kira and growing sincere feelings for him but she is not clear (during the scene we have a little slide of all the previous scenes were Fllay and Kira shared strong feelings).
Side note: Ssigh at first was against this but later understood that Kira sincerely loved Fllay and as a good friend left her in his hands. If he thought Kira wasn't sincere there is no real explanation for Ssigh's behaviour.
Now it's time for Kira to go fight Athrun (when Tolle is killed)(ep 30). Fllay has reflected upon her actions and she talks to Kira again there is no more hate and revenge in her words and eyes. She is ready to apologize and restart like Kira wanted BUT there is no time AA is under attack. Kira says “Not right now, when i return...” and smiles at her.
Other interesting things: during the battle Fllay is nothing like before, she is seriously concerned about Kira's safety (before she was happy to have him fight fight fight and DIE).
But that's unfortunately when Kira went MIA.
After the battle Fllay is desperately crying ... she has lost yet again a person who was close to her and loved her. She is again completely alone and in despair. End of ep 31
In ep32 Fllay tries to approach Ssigh yet again.... but Ssigh has seen through her: she actually liked Kira. Note that Fllay is denying this less and less as Ssigh remark the fact that she loved Kira. And when Fllay called Ssigh she clearly saw Kira for a moment.... and Tohru went to her and she got completely scared because now Kira is haunting her.
Now we got at Joshua. Fllay is separated from AA and ends up as a captive in Raww's hands. Here she sees with her own eyes the other side: coordinators are humans like her and they hate as much as she hated them. Yzak is a mirror.
Finally Kira and Fllay discovered that they are both alive. Kira went out of his way during a battle in his attempt to save her and got completely trashed. Athrun saved him. Fllay too is happy to hear that Kira is alive and wants to get together with him again. Now another focal point. Fllay talks with Natarle about her feelings in ep47. She is a completely different person now and want to “properly tells him...” what? That she sincerely loves him “I'm sorry and i love you”. Some people think out of convenience and ignoring all the past development that she just want to say “I'm sorry and gooodbye”. Did you really think that Fllay would have gone so much out of her way to just apologize? She obviously loves him! But that's not all. Earlier Anh Minh thought that her redemption was cheap (already proven false given the development so far) and asked for some sacrifice and asked for “Conscious, deliberate choices to make sacrifices and take risks. Hard work and courage, both moral and physical.”
Now in her dialogue Natarle clearly said that Fllay had the opportunity to go back to the Moon Base in a safe place and she didn't need to be on the battlefield: Dominion was the flagship and it would be at the very center of the battle. But still Fllay clearly refused taking her risks and by sacrificing herself. She is not the Fllay she was before: she has changed.
Now on her hate for Coordinators. Earlier she wanted all of them dead but we see later on she was disgusted by the massacre of coordinators at Boaz with nuclear weapons.
Next is Azrael on Dominon. He is threatening Natarle and the crew with a gun. Still Fllay put herself in danger and tried to save AA from being annihilated. Are you asking more than this? She was puttin her life on the line with a gun pointed at her head! A truly magnificent scene and Natarle was great too.
And now the climax. Kira and Fllay reunited. They are trying to get together again but Kira made the fatal error to draw Raww's attention of the pod (idiot). He at first saves her and Fllay has big eyes full of tears and love for Kira. Kira is happy and is smiling at her WHEN Raww shot the pod down. That's when Kira cries and become a berserker.
And that's it. It was true love in the end and love was the natural result of all the things and development that they shared during the series.
Sorry Lacus fans.... in GS Kira never really cared for Lacus THAT way he already had someone else in his mind. But since on Newtype Lacus was the best female gundam character ever and gundam fans superficially hated Fllay's character from the bottom of their heart since she stole precious Kira's viriginity she was killed and Kira was paired with Lacus in GSD.
True character development is no longer appreciated (and GSD is there to prove this) what fans want is perfect beings: Kira alone owning countless zakus with god aura (in GSD) and miss “I know all from the beginning” perfect Angel Lacus. Fine.

[D a m i e n]

I usually tend to stay away from any keyboard fight, i like a few flams though xD.
At first i made this thread just to express that i felt attached to Fllay in GS and that i felt a strong emotion when i saw her die. This has now turned to a Fllay vs Lacus argument . i ll be honnest i HATE the character Lacus, her deeds and ideals in the serie are very noble, BUT this character just sucked at the creation. She was given plothole abilities and scrytpwriters's blessing from the start. She is a static character. SHE HAS NOT EVOLVE AT ALL IN BOTH GS AND GSD. there is no interrest in a character that has reach his full potential from the start.

@Demongod : from reading your posts you really like Lacus, i have also read a few post you made reguarding Fate/Stay Night and how you disagree with Saber dying in the end, cause blah blah she suffered she went throught a lot and she deserves happyness. Yet you are refusing to acknowlegde Fllay's suffering, work toward redemption and evolution. Only seeing her sins. How many people do you think Saber had to sacrifice for her ideals as a king? She realized that she comitted sins and want to attone for her sins. Yet the same apply to Fllay she comitted sins and want to attone for it. You are willing to forgive one but not the other one, what is your judgement based on? both are looking to take amend for what they did. Is it because Saber shown rigtheous pure and perfect (wich is something she is doing to attone for her sins) and Fllay is shown mischevious and manipulatrice in GS then slowly changes. Still reguarding the post in various i have read from you, you seems to idolize character that Pure Virgin and Perfect. This denote a very righteous state of mind but also a refusal and a way to flee the reality, the way you value virgnity is very revelant here...
You unfortunatly seem to lack the power to forgive without discrimination. I happen to be christian (not much going to church often but..) and isnt the forgivness the greatest gift God gave to humanity? He even went to the point to let Human kill his son yet forgiving them. I would prefer to let religion out of the debate because not everyone is following the same religion and everyone is enttiltle to belive in whatever religion they want. Besidemy lore in religion is not as good as it used to be.
In the end both of us are "opiniatre", it s a french word that i dont know how to translate. It means that someone made his mind on a point and is now convince of his position. For example politicians are opiniatres, they will never ever agree on some point, you will never see a politician end a debate telling the other party "you have convince me" because they are opiniatre. Maybe the closest word for opiniatre would be obstinate. We both have our opinion on a character such as Fllay i m just merelly pointing that you are partial on your judgement and opinion on her (see my saber/fllay anologie since both wish to atone for their sins yet it alright for one to die and not for the other)

I m sorry if i have offend you by pointing specifically at you and will ask you to forgive me but i wont present apologize because that i just how i feel and i m too old to backoff my words. I also want to ask anyone to forgive me for referring to christian religion, it in a way slipted out on my keyboard.


Edit

whouaaa i scare myself sometimes, this post took me like 3 hours to write since i was at work typing half a sentence there finishing it 5 min after whenever i had a few sec to spare. the result is some nonsense and weak argument not defended properly. Morality kids : Dont lurk forums at work/school it s bad.
Was wondering if i should delete it or not but i ll let it as a testimoni of what is a bad argument

[Demongod86]

Saber, compared to Fllay? Saber's more like Kenshin in that they had to do what they had to do, that their hands were essentially forced to fight for their ideals. Nothing wrong with that. But what about Fllay? YOU LET MY FATHER DIE, NOW I'M GOING TO MANIPULATE AND USE YOU TO NO END! MUAHAHAHAHAHA! FIGHT, KIRA, FIGHT AND DIE, THAT'S THE ONLY WAY I CAN FORGIVE YOU! Saber and Arthur (they're one and the same, essentially) WERE angels that were too good for this world and were ALSO brought down by even the SLIGHTEST of sins (Arthur WAS seduced by his half sister plain and simple, and brought down by his own illegitimate son, Mordred).

Come on, otacu, if ARTHUR HIMSELF was eventually sentenced to death because of his incestuous relationship with his half-sister (completely engineered by her of course, with no knowledge on young arthur's part), why should Fllay be let off the hook for something she completely engineered herself? What was pulling Fllay's strings to make her go nuts and turn Kira into a mindless berserker? Oh just the delusional fact that it was all Kira's fault her father died.

And otacu, face it, as funny as it sounds, stealing Kira's virginity IS an irrevocable sin. He's not going to get that virginity back, and in Kira's state of mind, Fllay would definitely be found guilty of at least second degree sexual assault I'd think. Kira was beside himself with grief at not being able to save the pod, was coming off of a terrible fever, the works, and Fllay goes and puts him into bed. Yeah, so damn innocent...

There's also a difference between being flawed and just being a general bitch and YAP (Young American Princess). And is it really LOVE that Kira had for Fllay? Or perhaps the fact that he was still being his delusional I-wanna-save-everyone heroic self? Maybe he felt some responsibility towards all the crap that happened with Fllay (you know, like maybe if her father didn't die, or if he'd gotten her to shut up with her racism, the things he could have done so she wouldn't have left AA in the first place)...in GS, Kira had a conscience that was far too big for his own good. When you have such a nice guy like Kira, unless he specifically says "I love you", I would say that there's always a conscience aspect involved. So did he love Lacus by that point? Not yet...but he was well on his way to.

Oh, and heck, otacu, even if Fllay DIDN'T steal Kira's virginity, I'd still hate her because she generally took advantage of him completely and Kira was just too nice of a guy to see that. What he saw was a girl and friends that needed his protection, and that the times were trying, and that it was up to him to be there for everyone. And Fllay took advantage of that.

All other characters aren't people that take advantage of others like that...yes, you can go and slaughter countless amounts of people and not be sentenced to death immediately, but it's the mindset rather than the actions that counts for it.

Also, care to tell exactly what Fllay changed TO? She changed to what everyone ELSE was in episode 2. That coordinators are just other kinds of people, no racism, no LOOK AT ME, I'M THE SPOILED PRINCESS! kinds of girls, all normal, regular people...so Fllay was going to turn into an experienced girl that learned to shut her big mouth. Three cheers for Fllay. Hip-hip-hurray! x3...

Also, what do Fllay's changes even have to do with the fact that she already committed those sins? Was she somehow going to atone for them? Maybe say "I'm sorry I turned you into a killing machine, Kira"? Heck, even in that case, she'd be taking advantage of Kira's overall big-heart nice-guy attitude about things, because of course, Kira being Kira, he'd forgive her. So it's a lose-lose situation for her anyway.

I mean come on, otacu, she sinned for more than half of the series, then was a scared little girl when Rau took her, so of course then she realized how good she had it with Kira. Yes, she realizes that and comes to her epiphany, but it's simply NOT ENOUGH to make up for all the crap she did earlier! Because of her, Kira already had blood on his hands. Because of her, he lost his virginity, and because of her, he had scars that it took Lacus two years to heal. If that.

In terms of Fllay, yes, her changing makes her a complete character. But does it MATTER in the course of the series? Absolutely not. Hell, NATALE had lesser sins than Fllay did (in fact, Natale didn't sin, Natale just had a flaw!), and when Natale comes to her epiphany, guess what? She dies too.

I mean come on, Otacu...Arthur, Natale...both had lesser sins than Fllay did, and they paid for it with their lives...Arthur for being too innocent and getting seduced by Morgause and Natale for realizing too late what a mistake it was to follow orders down to the dot. Would you have Fllay get away with what SHE did when those two characters die? Heck, even MEER died for simply pursuing her dream and being naive about it!

Open your eyes, Otacu...there are characters that have died for far lesser crap than Fllay did. And that's a big FAR lesser. Fllay GOT what was coming to her.

Or how about looking at it the other way: Fllay survives, Kira embraces her tightly, Lacus is generally discarded in terms of a relationship with Kira, and Fllay gets completely off the hook. How ridiculous would that be, that after all the crap Fllay puts Kira through, she just gets right back with him like nothing ever happened. No, I think the death is the proper ending for her, because frankly, Lacus's actions towards Kira could not go unignored or unrewarded. I'd much sooner have Fllay punished for her sins and Lacus rewarded than Fllay let off the hook and Lacus ignored.

In the end, the justice was served. Fllay got her just desserts, and Lacus got her just desserts as well. Like it or not, if not for Lacus, the Archangel would have gone up in Alaska. As for Fllay, Kira would have defended Archangel with or without her, since he was the only one capable of flying the strike.

And as for it being a Fllayish world, well, find a girl that's pretty and smart and once she likes you, that's a lot closer to a Lacus than a Fllay.