2011-04-14, 20:16 | Link #61 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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American Comics are not succesful at the moment, due to a lack of mass appeal. I think Crossovers are a part of that. All of you say you (as fans) liked it, but none of these things you point to are really well known outside the fandom. The challenge for american comics is to sell outside the fandom, which they have not succeeded at since their highs in the 40s and 50s when comics magazines had circulations in the millions. |
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2011-04-14, 20:32 | Link #62 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Considering the Justice League of America can be traced back to 1960, and the earlier Justice Society of America to 1940, I'm not sure the arguement about crossovers is relevant anymore. They've been doing it of over 70 years.
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2011-04-14, 20:33 | Link #63 | |
'Sup Ballers
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
Age: 34
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I don't really read comics and I haven't watched every episode either, so I am a casual fan (like you, I assume). You don't need to have watched every episode to have seen them together. The Batman/Superman Adventures and were on Kids' WB when Saturday Morning Cartoons were still popular, and it was on the after-school block from 1997 to at least 2000, both slots during the same period. It was also on Toonami on Cartoon Network for a period of time. The Super Friends started in 1973 and had re-runs on children's programming all throughout the 80s and to finish it off, was on Toonami from 1998 to 2000 or so. Every single one was targeted at kids, not ardent fans. With how often they've been on together, people don't need to have watched every episode of every series to have seen them interact. If you're talking about the movies. . .okay, but referring to the cartoons, I just can't buy that most casual fans don't know that they are in the same universe, at least not in the US. Last edited by Dilla; 2011-04-14 at 23:14. |
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2011-04-14, 20:37 | Link #64 | |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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Now, that's just my take, don't know how many ardent or casual fans feel similarly but there you have it. |
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2011-04-14, 23:58 | Link #65 | ||
World's Greatest
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Francisco
Age: 36
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Exactly. And some of the most successful stories in the history of comic books have occurred with all of these characters being in the same universe. A lot of characters may not have even lasted this long if it wasn't because of crossing over. The Hulk got canceled after his first six issues. Imagine if he wasn't brought over to the Avengers?
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2011-04-15, 00:19 | Link #66 |
'Sup Ballers
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
Age: 34
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I just leave this here:
Started in 1941 and didn't end until 1986. So yeah, the idea that crossovers were a desperate attempt to maintain popularity is bullpoo. It's been in the industry in the beginning. |
2011-04-15, 07:27 | Link #68 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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My personal feeling is that the use of crossovers makes it much more difficult for authors to create a cohesive story with a beginning, middle and end. Instead we have one big franchise, and one part being bad easily compromises the value of the whole. However I don't think I am really the type of person Super-Hero Comics are aimed at. Similiarly I find most shonen Jump quite dull as well (shonen jump being the closest equivalent in Manga). But shonen Jump is clearly more succesful then Marvel or DC, it's managed to retain it's core demographic, and has a circulation of almost 3 Million! I don't want the thread to be derailed by too much focus on Crossovers, they're obviously something where your mileage may vary. But clearly Marvel and DC have done something wrong to have sales as low as they are, when in other countries comics are still going strong. My personal opinion is that Marvel and DC abandoned the youth demographic that made them succesful in the first place. The average kid no longer buys comics books anymore. This was a serious mistake. Now I see nothing wrong with having comics with mature themes, but the correct way to so would have been to maintain their youth oriented magazines and produce other magazines in tandem that would appeal to older readers. Without the magazines aimed at young kids it's much more difficult to bring new fans into the medium. Instead they're chasing an ever shrinking aging group. The movies are somewhat succesful in bringing new fans in, but these are also making the same mistake of largely being aimed at adults. The cartoon series do somewhat succeed, but how many of those kids actually go out to buy comic books based on the TV show? Furthermore (at least where I am), you can only buy such comics in a specialist store. You can't pick up the latest copy at your local petrol station or news agent. I don't think Marvel and DC deserve all the blame, as I said earlier there are other american comic book publishers. But considering the general perception that "comic books are for kids" there's a remarkeable lack of comic books that can actually be read by kids. Because of this we're now getting the even more negative "Comic books are for sweaty nerds". I think to bring back Comics to their former glory their needs to be massmarket comics available for kids to read. And as those kids grow older they should be able to graduate to more mature fair as they wish. But the original kids stuff shouldn't dissapear. |
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2011-04-15, 11:28 | Link #69 |
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While I agree that comic companies should market towards children more, because of their mass market towards adults comics have been more accepted as an art form.
Back in the silver age comics were all for kids and campy as shit, except for a few notable underground comics. They were good! They were fun! But they didn't really have any deeper value. Sure that's not necessary for everything, some good fun is great every now and then, but when it overtakes the market it brings down the value of anything else. The comics being released nowadays are actually much better than those released 40-60 years ago. Sure the best ones came out in the mid-80s but there are still some great writers out there (Morrison has been writing the same epic story SINCE the 80's).
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2011-04-15, 15:02 | Link #70 |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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I've always had mixed feeling about trying to make super hero comics *serious*. Mainly to do with suspension of disbelief. When your average silver age comic involves wacky Justice League style antics, the viewer/reader is completely disinclined to consider the absurdity of the premise of the scenarios involved.
Start adding serious story lines, grim realism and you run into a problem. You're trying to have serious story lines in a universe that's inherently unrealistic. Marvel/DC are universes where it's normal for guys wearing spandex tights to fly around fighting each other with death ray vision. Now the unrealistic element isn't necessarily individuals with various kinds of super powers/abilities. That's a fantastic element. The unrealistic element that a world being full of super natural/ultra high tech elements, is that the effect these things would have on the world isn't contemplated. Take the Joker for example. The Joker/Batman conflict is often used to make serious points that are supposed to make the viewer think (such as should villains like the Joker be killed). Yet at the same time we're supposed to suspend our disbelief with regards to the fact that no authorities are going to try to imprison and unimprisonable mass murderer whose killed thousands. The entire premise is wacky*. *This was a major reason, why when I was watching the Bruce Tim Batman/Super series, I always found the Superman/Lex Luthor conflict more intriguing than Joker/Batman. Luthor isn't a suicidally disturbed maniac incapable of putting up a facade of normalcy. He's a respected corporate executive who protects himself by working through pawns. Superman, nor anybody else can go after Luthor since he's not a vigilante going against the system. He is the system. It's a much more interesting commentary about the nature of justice that a monstrous man like Luthor can't be struck down because of the facade he puts up, than a monstrous man like the Joker who wears no disguise yet doesn't get put down. |
2011-04-15, 15:11 | Link #71 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Considering how long people in real life go on death row (upwards of 30 years in some cases), and that it is illegal to use the death penalty in some states....yeah the Joker could be around for a long time. Arkham was a correctional institute if I recall correctly and the Joker was considered insane (well he is). If he'd been taken in before becoming the Joker he probably would have gotten a normal jail sentance rather than Arkham. Arkham being "easy" to escape from or the easy to convince people you are sane now is a different problem within the realism.
That the police don't manage to use deadly force against the Joker is something else. That the Batman doesn't use deadly force is one of his "weaknesses", or virtue, depending on your point of view.
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2011-04-15, 15:30 | Link #72 | ||
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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That's the thing. In a realistic scenario whether or not Batman thinks killing the Joker is irrelevant. Because in the hands of the authorities he's going to die. Either from someone taking initiative and plugging him, or a government hit squad murdering him extra judicially. |
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2011-04-15, 16:48 | Link #73 | ||||
World's Greatest
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Francisco
Age: 36
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2011-04-15, 16:59 | Link #74 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Consider that the guys making the comics and cartoons in the 1990s were fanboys of stuff made in the 1960s who may have been fanboys of stuff made in the 1940s. We are on third or fourth generations of comic book artists and writers.
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2011-04-15, 18:08 | Link #75 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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And does having comics aimed at kids preclude you from having comics aimed at adults? No it does not. You can have kids comics and Adult comics. Certainly there's children's literature AND adult literature? As a child I read every comic I ever could find. But the only comics I ever came across were Asterix and Obelix at my local Library(still love to this day), so I did not grow up reading comics on the whole. If I could have bought cheap comics from the news agent I would have done so. Also kids don't have that much control over their spending, it's their parents that control it. If their parents see a mild kids oriented Comic, they might very well buy it over the expensive video game system +games. In fact Kids are one of the easiest markets to tap because they'll enjoy almost anything. Considering the number of kid's eyeballs that were glued to Batman or Spiderman on TV, DC utterly failed to harness that to push up their sales in the kids demographic that was actually watching it. |
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2011-04-15, 18:16 | Link #76 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Probably because they wanted the teenage bracket that might have more say in spending dollars. They may have changed that model as from what I've heard the newer Batman cartoon is more camp than the one from the 1990s.
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2011-04-15, 20:37 | Link #77 | |
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2011-04-15, 22:59 | Link #78 | ||
World's Greatest
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Francisco
Age: 36
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I don't see how you can attack American comics in terms of iconography. Superman is one of the most iconic creations that has ever existed since his inception. Everyone in practically every country knows who he is. Can you really say the same about Astro Boy? If I walk down the street here in San Francisco how many random people I ask are going to know Superman compared to Astro Boy? Big budget movies are the result of these iconic creations. Superman, Batman, X-Men, etc. There are comics aimed at children these days. It's just that they're not that popular. So they do exist and are being made. But the children/parents aren't buying them. You take Superman and bring back his campyness you're telling me that parents are going to suddenly change tunes along with children and go for the comic books instead of video games and internet? Would you put $100 down on that?
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2011-04-16, 07:50 | Link #79 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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My point is that they shouldn't have changed Superman to be less campy in the first place. They should instead have started other franchises that were squarely aimed at adults. Or had an adult Superman line and a kids superman line (though that could get confusing). If there was a decent marketing push, and it established a presence in Libraries and newsagents, I think Comics could come back over a number of years. I'd put $1,000 down on that. Kids will always find the same stuff entertaining whereever and whenever you go, so long as it makes sense (IE is written in their language, is not obsolescent in the technology it depicts. They wouldn't be impressed if Bruce wayne had a mobile phone now, whereas they would have in 1950). |
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2011-04-16, 09:01 | Link #80 | ||
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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Though it's not really the outfits. It's the fact that you have a world with super powered freaks running around punching eachother at mach 10 and with hyper powered energy rays. But at no point does Dragon Ball Z ever ask us to seriously sit down and contemplate the ethics/politics/sociology of super heroes. It's just an action packed romp where people act silly one minute than beat the crap out of each other the next. My issue isn't that many American comics ask me to turn my brain off for some silly things. My issue is they ask me to partially turn it back on to intelligently examine some aspects of their story lines, while double thinking to ignore the silly stuff. Quote:
If I will give credit to Marvel/DC, the alternate/future self contained arcs they do on occasion can be incredibly good. (Like Batman Beyond). |
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