Schniezel's viewpoints on war and how to obtain peace

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Britannia had trouble with a small JLF force in Japan for years. Not to mention terror cells. Imagin a well supplied military force? It would take a while to finish them off fully.

Guerrilla warfare is fundamentally different from declared war. You're trying to compare a small military force hiding among civilians to a large military force in the open. Two openly opposed military forces like Britannia and the UFN would hammer out their differences much faster.

Originally Posted by Orga777

I don't think so. The only way he could is if he could get his hands on a warhead himself. And when the flying Doom Fortress was finished, what then?

Would it really be that hard to grab a warhead intact? They're loaded on Knightmares, so all you have to do is chop the limbs and steal the frame. Not to mention close-quarters solves the problem. Sure they'll nuke their own territory, but not themselves.

Originally Posted by Orga777

I think they could have handled themselves fine. Would they have survived in the end? Probably not, but I think they could have handled themselves fine in battles. heck, I could see them winning a few too. They may not win the war, but it would still be stretching Britannia to its limits.

No they wouldn't. Their force did not compare to Britannia at the time. Heck, before Kallen broke out they were being beaten hard. They stood against Lelouch because he was isolated. Against a unified Britannia, they couldn't hope to even hold their ground, much less win.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Britannia had trouble with a small JLF force in Japan for years. Not to mention terror cells. Imagin a well supplied military force? It would take a while to finish them off fully.



I don't think so. The only way he could is if he could get his hands on a warhead himself. And when the flying Doom Fortress was finished, what then?



I think they could have handled themselves fine. Would they have survived in the end? Probably not, but I think they could have handled themselves fine in battles. heck, I could see them winning a few too. They may not win the war, but it would still be stretching Britannia to its limits.

Britannia had trouble mainly because the JLF was fighting a guerrilla battle on familiar ground and did not fight Britannia head on. You saw what happened to the JLF once Britannia got serious. Cornelia took them down in an afternoon.

It is not like Lelouch could not find Nina if he was not the Emperor.

Britannia was hardly being stretched to it's limits and heck Charles even welcomed the fighting. Infact, while Zero was attacking Japan, Britannia was invading the UFN on muliple fronts and succeeding. And even though Lelouch attacked Japan with the best of his forces, the Britannians stationed there were putting up a tough resistence.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Britannia had trouble mainly because the JLF was fighting a guerrilla battle on familiar ground and did not fight Britannia head on. You saw what happened to the JLF once Britannia got serious. Cornelia took them down in an afternoon.

Well... that is true... but the UFN is a little bigger than the JLF... well, more like A LOT bigger.

It is not like Lelouch could not find Nina if he was not the Emperor.

Not if he doesn't know who made the damn thing.

Britannia was hardly being stretched to it's limits and heck Charles even welcomed the fighting. Infact, while Zero was attacking Japan, Britannia was invading the UFN on muliple fronts and succeeding. And even though Lelouch attacked Japan with the best of his forces, the Britannians stationed there were putting up a tough resistence.

The fighting in Japan was tough because nearly every single Knight of Round was there. 1, 3, 6, 7, and 10. That was their best forces as well. Hell, if Lelouch stayed with the BKs he probably would STILL have lost to Britannia in a long lasting war even if FLEIA isn't accounted for. He may be talented, but the pilots Britannia had were superior and their resources were practically unlimited. Especially if they took over some more of the EU and took away from the BK's powerbase.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Well... that is true... but the UFN is a little bigger than the JLF... well, more like A LOT bigger.

Doesn't change the fact that Britannia would just respond proportionately, and they have more than adequate forces to do it.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Not if he doesn't know who made the damn thing.

Every country in the world figured that out over the first timeskip, Lelouch could too.

Originally Posted by Orga777

The fighting in Japan was tough because nearly every single Knight of Round was there. 1, 3, 6, 7, and 10. That was their best forces as well. Hell, if Lelouch stayed with the BKs he probably would STILL have lost to Britannia in a long lasting war even if FLEIA isn't accounted for. He may be talented, but the pilots Britannia had were superior and their resources were practically unlimited. Especially if they took over some more of the EU and took away from the BK's powerbase.

The EU was hardly contributing. The core Black Knights were the bulk of the UFN's power. That said, you make that sound simple when it's not. The EU held against Britannia because they know what they're doing. Doesn't really help against the KoR super-frames, but still.

If Lelouch had stayed with the UFN, he could have beat Britannia, because as Britannia he took over the whole freaking world. Lelouch is a master of such strategies, and he would have beaten Brtiannia eventually. In fact, had he just taken Area 11 he pretty much would have won, because then Britannia's colonies would start rebelling en masse and the shit would really hit the fan.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Doesn't change the fact that Britannia would just respond proportionately, and they have more than adequate forces to do it.

I know. Like I said, it doesn't mean the UFN would win.

If Lelouch had stayed with the UFN, he could have beat Britannia, because as Britannia he took over the whole freaking world. Lelouch is a master of such strategies, and he would have beaten Brtiannia eventually. In fact, had he just taken Area 11 he pretty much would have won, because then Britannia's colonies would start rebelling en masse and the shit would really hit the fan.

So wait, just because of Lelouch's genius he would be able to beat SUPERIOR forces, with superior mechas, with superior numbers, and superior resources? Dispite Schneizel being just as smart and as he proved in the final battle with Lelouch and even better than Lelouch in the realm of combat tactics since Lelouch went all gun-ho and got his defenses shattered by Schneizel's forces... Heh, yeah, right... You want to know why Lelouch took over the entire world? It was more than just his skills, charisma, and Geass. It was because he had control of freaking Britannia itself with its superior forces, numbers, and resources. Oh, and because he captured everyone.

Either with or without Lelouch, their chances were always slim. He just gave them more hope than normal. The smartest move Lelouch made was taking over Britannia from the inside instead of sticking with the BKs and the UFN.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Orga777

So wait, just because of Lelouch's genius he would be able to beat SUPERIOR forces, with superior mechas, with superior numbers, and superior resources?

Lelouch has proven that he can do that sort of thing time and again. The superior force doesn't always win the war.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Dispite Schneizel being just as smart and as he proved in the final battle with Lelouch and even better than Lelouch in the realm of combat tactics since Lelouch went all gun-ho and got his defenses shattered by Schneizel's forces... Heh, yeah, right... You want to know why Lelouch took over the entire world? It was more than just his skills, charisma, and Geass. It was because he had control of freaking Britannia itself with its superior forces, numbers, and resources. Oh, and because he captured everyone.

Lelouch was outgunned big time in the final battle, and was not even trying to counter Kallen tearing through his front line. Even so, he blew up what amount to the entire UFN fleet in a single attack, so yeah, he proved then and there that he was still better.

As for why he took over the world, no, it was not because he had Britannia's superior resources. His resources were actually inferior by comparison. He took over the world because he was smart enough to steal the other guy's trump card.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Either with or without Lelouch, their chances were always slim. He just gave them more hope than normal. The smartest move Lelouch made was taking over Britannia from the inside instead of sticking with the BKs and the UFN.

Without Lelouch, their chances are none. With Lelouch, their chances are good. There's a reason people flock to Zero: the man gets results. They ditched that and one battle later they've been defeated. That's what Lelouch represents.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Well... that is true... but the UFN is a little bigger than the JLF... well, more like A LOT bigger.



Not if he doesn't know who made the damn thing.



The fighting in Japan was tough because nearly every single Knight of Round was there. 1, 3, 6, 7, and 10. That was their best forces as well. Hell, if Lelouch stayed with the BKs he probably would STILL have lost to Britannia in a long lasting war even if FLEIA isn't accounted for. He may be talented, but the pilots Britannia had were superior and their resources were practically unlimited. Especially if they took over some more of the EU and took away from the BK's powerbase.

and most of the JLF was made up of the decimated EU which couldn't give any real support. That's why the final battle was primarly between Britannia and China and Japan.

Could Lelouch defeat Britannia using just the Black Knights? Considering the sheer economic might of Britannia compared to other countries probably not. It would be the pacific war all over again, America could take the losses as they had more resources, more land, and more people, so Japan had no chance.

[Levy]

Lelouch was outgunned big time in the final battle, and was not even trying to counter Kallen tearing through his front line. Even so, he blew up what amount to the entire UFN fleet in a single attack, so yeah, he proved then and there that he was still better.


As for why he took over the world, no, it was not because he had Britannia's superior resources. His resources were actually inferior by comparison. He took over the world because he was smart enough to steal the other guy's trump card.

I don't think that the Mt. Fuji move was to show Lelouch was a great strategist, rather, that he was ready to do anything to accomplish his goal. Killing all your ground forces to blow up part of the enemy fleet is not something I'll put under the label 'good strategy' , and Lelouch himself during that battle aknowledged that the BK are a very though match and they forced him to use that plan in advance repect to his own prediction.

So no, I don't think that the show wants to give us the idea that Lelouch is onnipotent and everyone else sucks, and I don't think that he won because he was so much better in warfare than the UNF and Schneizel. He was both very daring and very lucky.

If it was obvious that Lelouch got such an advantage in terms of ability he could just win and win and win again, then it would have been quite a boring series to watch. The greatness of it was that Schneizel and Lelouch were almost at the same level and that Schneizel really gave him a hard time, mostly bringing Nunnaly on his side.


On a side note: I haven't understand if you think that Emperor Lelouch forces are superior or inferior to UNF forces at Mount Fuji's battle. Your answers a are a bit contraddictory on this.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Levy

I don't think that the Mt. Fuji move was to show Lelouch was a great strategist, rather, that he was ready to do anything to accomplish his goal. Killing all your ground forces to blow up part of the enemy fleet is not something I'll put under the label 'good strategy' , and Lelouch himself during that battle aknowledged that the BK are a very though match and they forced him to use that plan in advance repect to his own prediction.

Even if it sacrifices his own troops, it's still a good strategy. His losses are tame by comparison, and who would think he could actually shoot the volcano at them.

Originally Posted by Levy

So no, I don't think that the show wants to give us the idea that Lelouch is onnipotent and everyone else sucks, and I don't think that he won because he was so much better in warfare than the UNF and Schneizel. He was both very daring and very lucky.

Luck was only part of it. A lot of it was planning, and he might as well be omnipotent with that pre-recorded conversation with Schneizel.

Originally Posted by Levy

If it was obvious that Lelouch got such an advantage in terms of ability he could just win and win and win again, then it would have been quite a boring series to watch. The greatness of it was that Schneizel and Lelouch were almost at the same level and that Schneizel really gave him a hard time, mostly bringing Nunnaly on his side.

But why did Lelouch lose? It wasn't because his strategies failed, it was because virtually every time some random and completely unpredictable thing jumps in.

Originally Posted by Levy

On a side note: I haven't understand if you think that Emperor Lelouch forces are superior or inferior to UNF forces at Mount Fuji's battle. Your answers a are a bit contraddictory on this.

Lelouch's forces at that particular battle were inferior. Britannia's forces as a whole are not. That straighten things out?

[bladeofdarkness]

geassed soldiers make for very poor pilots
they have no sense of individuality, and as such no sense of self preservation
thats why they sucked so badly in the battle of mount fuji
they dont bother trying to avoid attacks

[Schneizel]

Let's see, I don't feel like reading this thread.

Schneizel works by creating examples and expecting people to behave. He made an example out of Kannon in college, he never had to whip anyone again. He made an example of Tokyo, look at the Black Knights in the next episode. He made an example out of half of Europe because even though Nina said, "You could've won lol", he felt that half was enough to sufficiently fuck with them and it was. His plan to go to war with China was essentially the same thing, "We'll just take over like half by showing them how powerful we are and then we'll talk about peace." Lelouch did not follow this pattern of people bowing down and getting along with Schneizel, this is even in the dialogue when he tells Nunnally, "I thought Lelouch would give up after this but I guess not." Damocles follows the same line of thought: He is going to make an example out of every country that wages war. "I will do this if you wage war." Poof, everyone steps back in line and so long as has FLEIA's and is unmatched in technology, people can go about their lives and we have forced peace. Given how he's spent his whole life making examples of people and behaving accordingly, it should not be rocket science as to how he came to this conclusion. It's simple to understand, and I have no idea why this is 4 pages long.


Edit: Oh, and Orga, Schneizel only wears one mask, and it's one that looks exactly like his own face.

[morbosfist]

That sounds about right, and it's four (two) pages because we sort of branched into a side discussion.

[azul120]

Well put. Though it was because of Lelouch's Geass that Suzaku ended up firing off FLEIJA. I doubt Schneizel counted on it transpiring like that, though nonetheless he clearly rolled with the result.

I guess the differentiating factor when it came to Lelouch was that Lelouch was too cunning, willful and tenacious to give in to Schneizel. And after everything he went through, why shouldn't he have been that one last time?

[Schneizel]

Originally Posted by azul120

Well put. Though it was because of Lelouch's Geass that Suzaku ended up firing off FLEIJA. I doubt Schneizel counted on it transpiring like that, though nonetheless he clearly rolled with the result.

Obviously he didn't really factor in the live Geass going off, but he was expecting Suzaku to do it someway or the other. You can tell from the dialogue from episode 17 that Schneizel is basically trying to blackmail Suzaku into being his bitch by blaming the whole war on him. Kannon tells him, "Wow Suzaku this whole war is your fault! If only you had told Schneizel before." In 20, you see the results of this and you could say that they're successful since Suzaku says, "Okay, I'll go kill the Emperor so you can take his job, just make me your Knight the First."

I guess the differentiating factor when it came to Lelouch was that Lelouch was too cunning, willful and tenacious to give in to Schneizel. And after everything he went through, why shouldn't he have been that one last time?

The part I am referring to is in episode 23 after Schneizel FLEIA's Pendragon, then contacts Lelouch and shows him he has Nunnally as well. If Lelouch had given into him then, he would've had to give up Zero's Requiem too.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Schneizel

Obviously he didn't really factor in the live Geass going off, but he was expecting Suzaku to do it someway or the other.

He did have a second bomb, so worst case he loads up a second Knightmare and has a willing pilot do the job.

[Schneizel]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He did have a second bomb, so worst case he loads up a second Knightmare and has a willing pilot do the job.

Nina looked plenty willing. ( ´∀`)

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Schneizel

Nina looked plenty willing. ( ´∀`)

Yeah, but you don't trust the crazy bitch with the weapon of mass destruction. Evidently you don't trust Suzaku, either, but they at least thought (probably) he would avoid hitting civilians.

[Bonzo]

Look another point of view, if black knight success to kill lelouch in episode 19 after Schneizel revelation, 30 minutes and they were all dead.

A hypothesis made considering characters lineage.

[Levy]

I don't think so, Bonzo.

Killing off them would have not helped Schneizel at all in making himself the pacificator of nations he aimed to be.
He is a man that - as Schneizel (the forum user, LOL) pointed out, prefers treaten and little concessions to the use of unnecessary violence and prefers others to do the dirty job on his place.
That's why he accepted the deal of giving back Japan (useless and disastered area, just a pain in the ass to him that does not have any interest in Kaminejima) to the japanese if they gave him Lelouch: he wanted to appear as the man that was more fitting than his father to rule Britannia in a peacefull world, and willingfull to give - small, from his POV - concessions to other nations in order

It's the reverse strategy than that of Lelouch: Lelouch needed to beta a very aggressive Britannia with force to have the rest of the world siding with him; Schneizel wanted a more apparently 'tamed' Britannia that none would have think it worth the effort to rebel against.
That's why he supported Euphie's SAZ and why I don't think he'd have killed all of the BK after they'd gave him Lelouch, rather, he would have used that chance to paralyze the global uprising started by Lelouch giving small concessions and keep the waters calm untill he had fully developed his Damocles system.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Even if it sacrifices his own troops, it's still a good strategy. His losses are tame by comparison, and who would think he could actually shoot the volcano at them.

Xing ke. In the episode he says something along the lines of "we thought he could do this, but we also thought he won't because this would mean killing off all of his ground troops" - aka, Lelouch's strategy is an inhuman and self-damaging stategy only a man ready to do anything would perfom. I'm still of the opinion it's more a move that had to show us his uber-strong determination rather than his ability in battle.

About who got the bigger army, I'm not sure that Lelouch's troops were inferior in the Mt Fuji battle. I can be wrong, but it seemed to me that Lelouch's army was bigger - even though, the BK + Schneizel got better pilots and the Damocles, so maybe this can count as an advantage in terms of quality....

[bladeofdarkness]

Xing ke. In the episode he says something along the lines of "we thought he could do this, but we also thought he won't because this would mean killing off all of his ground troops" - aka, Lelouch's strategy is an inhuman and self-damaging stategy only a man ready to do anything would perfom. I'm still of the opinion it's more a move that had to show us his uber-strong determination rather than his ability in battle.

the proper trope name for this kind of battle tactic is "we have reserves"
usually when a character does this it makes them a complete monster in the eyes of most viewers (begging for a karmic death)
in lelouch's case it simply made him look cool
so either lelouch is really THAT awesome
or the fanbase is really THAT dumb (or just blind)