Love Live! Sunshine - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[blakstealth]

Originally Posted by Julio C

Honoka and Tsubasa love child:

[g]http://i.imgur.com/5wTI4xO.jpg[/img]

ohhhhhhh kill me x3

[grecefar]

I can't believe you guys go that far in debate with a anime of idols lol, I'm impressed.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I thought you weren't going to argue with me?

I wasn't arguing with you. I was correcting myself. I thought I didn't know what I wanted to say, turns out I did, so I said it.

What would your reaction had been if Chika had decided to keep her μ's poster up? What if that was the last scene before cutting to the ED? Would that have been a major issue for you? Would it have seriously hurt this episode for you?

Honestly, I might have forgotten it existed. But, ever since ep8, the way they kept showing Chika's pitiful expression before switching to the poster at night, with all the emphasis on the poster after everything that had happened, tell me you weren't expecting it to culminate with the poster finally being removed. Had expected it to be in ep8 myself, but, no, they wanted to pull the whole team together first.

As a pro sports fan who has read various player autobiographies, I would have found it entirely believable.

Which pro sport do you play competitively in? Do you think of your fellow players the same way you do the sportsmen of the ones you don't compete in?
I don't think you actually compete in any sport and don't realise you can think differently like that. That's why I asked about your blogging. I thought it might help you to understand that Chika stopped being the same kind of idol fan you are when she decided to be an idol herself, it just took her this long to realize it. But that's water under the bridge now, so pass on it.

I don't like the vibe I get from you that Sunshine's Director/writers had to make this creative choice.

I would say they already made this choice back in episode 8, they simply delayed the implementation until this episode. Perhaps I should amend what I said earlier, it would have been a disappointment if nothing happened to the poster with all the hints they were dropping since ep8, and it was just de-emphasized. If they had chosen not to remove the poster, they would not have shown an uncertain Chika repeatedly looking towards the poster as if for guidance.

Like Tempester said, this is a sledgehammer of symbolism, yes, but it had been swinging since ep8 and it would have been strange if it just disappeared at the end of the season without connecting.

It's like the inverse of a Chekov's Gun. This was a plot element they were all but shouting that they were going to decommission for four episodes. Not following through would have left people dismayed.

We've all been saying Aquors had to find their own way since ep8, you included, I believe. If the poster had come down in ep8, would you have applauded?

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

We've all been saying Aquors had to find their own way since ep8, you included, I believe. If the poster had come down in ep8, would you have applauded?

Frankly, given the choices the writers made in the first six episodes and with the initial premise, the earliest time Aqours could have realized that they couldn't be like Muse was episode eight. But that would have required the entire group to have been gathered together first. In that sense, I am puzzled at the dissatisfaction of some posters in that the realization Aqours came to in Episode 12 was "late". I think the poster coming down in Episode 8 would have been horrible writing, personally.

Because ever since Episode 8, the writers more or less committed firmly to putting Aqours on their own unique path. In a sense, I think the idea that Episode 12 is the first true episode of Sunshine independent of it's predecessor frankly is quite ridiculous. It's already been happening since Episode 7.

As for the act of taking down the poster - I see this as the functional equivalent of an anime where a girl cuts her own hair as a sign of some resolve. Chika taking down the poster is not a renunciation of her admiration of Muse. It's an active commitment not to make this admiration a trap of imitation instead.

Originally Posted by grecefar

I can't believe you guys go that far in debate with a anime of idols lol, I'm impressed.

Well, if long essays can be written about Amorshipping, does it surprise you that much that an anime about idols can be surprisingly a very debatable topic? Especially since the consensus here seems to be that the Love Live writers very likely meticulously plan their series; even if some of us think that the writers can be very unsubtle at times in doing this. For example, most of the things that happened this episode were clearly foreshadowed and telegraphed in Episode 8.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Actually, I can believe it. Remember I said my HS Computer Club won twice in a row? They didn't win the third year, or ever again while I was there. I didn't think much of it for a long time. Then, I went through a few anime of students trying to save their school by winning tournaments, and I realized something, none of these kids really set up the their school to continue winning after they graduated. So yeah, I can buy that Yukiho and Alisa couldn't teach their juniors how to succeed without them, didn't even realise they could and needed to. Sad, but that could be more likely than a winning streak that lasts longer than three years.

Note that you don't need a winning streak to remain a potent force in a competition with massive number of entrants. Simply being among the top 10, top 5 or even top 3 with occasional title victories for years on end in a competition probably would make the club one of the favorites to watch for every-year. An analogy can be drawn to the top clubs in the EPL here - Arsenal hasn't won the league for over a decade, and is still regarded as one of the favorites every year because they've never fallen out of the top 4. The bar isn't a three year winning streak, it's something closer to five years of always having at least one team past Preliminaries and rank very highly in Love Live.

That being said, it could be quite possible that neither Muse nor Yukiho or Alisa really planned out for the club to outlast their tenure at the top of the competition on a sustainable basis; nor was continued victory ever the object of a Post-Muse OIRC. But still.... by the time Yukiho and Alisa left, OIRC should have had a fairly established annual schedule, including an opening performance early in the Semester complete with huge amounts of publicity. So unless OIRC couldn't even put that kind of performance up (which again is quite difficult to believe, since you'd think even if the juniors didn't really know how to succeed without their seniors, at least they would have tried to follow the milestones their seniors put in place over the past few years), Riko as you've pointed out should have known of School Idols.

On the other hand, there's a very possible reason for OIRC not putting on any performance: they ran out of viable composers after Yukiho and Alisa, and Yukiho and Alisa never prepared a proper succession (a choreographer understudy, a composer understudy and so on) needed for OIRC to keep fielding teams.

Recall that Alisa and Yukiho formed their own group because they (and µ's) understood that they couldn't change µ's dynamic like that. Which means they won't enter LL as a combined team. That would undo the whole point of forming a separate team in the first place.
Which means one team will be eliminated at the preliminaries because they're competing in the same area due to being from the same school.
Things like that can always suck. I have mixed feelings about never knowing for sure how it developed.

I can imagine some of the conflicts include matters such as funding. The choreography and composition demands of the Love Live competition would also have made things much more difficult. That being said, it seems to be implied that at least Alisa and Yukiho led a team of their own to victory, since Alisa appears on the commemoration magazine.

Will this issue become relevant to Aqours? Probably - because Mari strikes me as the kind of person who would want Aqours and it successor groups to keep shining; and hence give great thought to the long-term future of the club assuming they save the school. And though Aqours commits itself to cut away from the apron strings of Muse, the fate of OIRC would have been of great interest to anyone seeking to ensure that their club keeps going after their graduation and ensuring succession planning and think beyond their year. Additionally, keep in mind that Dia has a very firm appraisal on the logistics needed to keep fielding credible teams to Love Live as demonstrated in the first episodes; and Chika is a good deal more thoughtful than Honoka, and committed to those she recruits.

I don't think this is the last we've heard of Otonokizaka myself. This is the last we've heard of Otonokizaka as inspiration. If we'd ever hear of the school again, it would be as rivals, and possibly far more dangerous than Saint Snow who are still tied down to the imperative of winning and following A-RISE. I wonder, from the perspective of those who are unhappy that Sunshine parallels and pays homage to the OG abit too much, how the idea that Otonokizaka would be rivals sounds like?

[Triple_R]

Well, since Jimmy C asked me some specific questions, I'll reply.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

But, ever since ep8, the way they kept showing Chika's pitiful expression before switching to the poster at night, with all the emphasis on the poster after everything that had happened, tell me you weren't expecting it to culminate with the poster finally being removed.

Honestly, no, I wasn't expecting it.

I respect your considerable reasoning and analytical abilities. But not everybody evaluates things the same way, or speculates in the same way. Chika's expression while looking at the poster at night was pointing to something, sure. Something about her that would have to change. But it didn't have to go back to that actual physical object. It could have just ended with the determinations that Chika made on the beach, and in her letter, in this episode.

I value symbolism, but I don't think every major character development needs to be reinforced by some visually symbolic act. I think it's possible for something to work more subtlety than that. I also don't think it's necessary for people to change their physical surroundings in order to change themselves.

Again, I turn to Nico. Nico changed a lot throughout LL Seasons 1 and 2, but I don't recall her changing her clubroom much, except maybe the necessity of making more space for her new club members.

That's why I asked about your blogging. I thought it might help you to understand that Chika stopped being the same kind of idol fan you are when she decided to be an idol herself, it just took her this long to realize it. But that's water under the bridge now, so pass on it.

I had only sampled a handful of anime blogs before I decided to start one myself. I wasn't a particularly big fan of either of them. Blogsuki and Baka-Raptor are the two blogs that stand out in my mind the most, when it comes to blogs I read before I started blogging myself. I liked their style, particularly when it came to having good comedic style and edge. I wouldn't say I was left completely breathless and awestruck at how radiant they were, though.

Anyway, I discovered them through Haruhi 2009 controversy, found them funny, and decided that blogging might be a good way to help me deal with a certain event called Endless Eight. And it just snowballed from there.

If I had been completely awestruck by another blog, I don't think it would have stopped because I was writing my own blog. If anything, my time as a blogger gives me more respect and admiration for those who somehow manage to put out new good quality blog entries on a frequent basis.

As for pro sports, I haven't competed competitively in pro sports. Still, when I read pro sports autobiographies, my impression is that the greats were themselves big fans of older greats, and I don't get the sense that this fandom ended with them becoming pro sports players.

If the poster had come down in ep8, would you have applauded?

Timing might have been better for me. Depending on how it was executed (i.e. other things also would have had to change), I might have speculated on whether or not Chika was (temporarily) giving up on being a school idol. Could have made good drama/suspense.

Originally Posted by novalysis

As for the act of taking down the poster - I see this as the functional equivalent of an anime where a girl cuts her own hair as a sign of some resolve.

Interesting comparison. I sometimes dislike this for aesthetic reasons. Maybe it factors into why I think inner changes don't require outer changes.

[outlaw97]

Originally Posted by novalysis

Frankly, given the choices the writers made in the first six episodes and with the initial premise, the earliest time Aqours could have realized that they couldn't be like Muse was episode eight. But that would have required the entire group to have been gathered together first. In that sense, I am puzzled at the dissatisfaction of some posters in that the realization Aqours came to in Episode 12 was "late". I think the poster coming down in Episode 8 would have been horrible writing, personally.

Because ever since Episode 8, the writers more or less committed firmly to putting Aqours on their own unique path. In a sense, I think the idea that Episode 12 is the first true episode of Sunshine independent of it's predecessor frankly is quite ridiculous. It's already been happening since Episode 7.

As for the act of taking down the poster - I see this as the functional equivalent of an anime where a girl cuts her own hair as a sign of some resolve. Chika taking down the poster is not a renunciation of her admiration of Muse. It's an active commitment not to make this admiration a trap of imitation instead.

Yeah I don't think it was late; I had already assumed that the majority of Season 1 would be introducing Aqours while slowly but surely easing viewers out of u's mode, and Season 2 being Aqours' real start.

The haircut analogy is a good one, and is most likely what the writers intended. For me personally, I would've preferred the poster to stay up. Or alternatively, a scene of either You/Riko/Chika's sister walking into her room to see her taking down the poster, and then Chika talking about what we've discussed here. Not subtle, but we've already established that Love Live is anything but, right?

One of my other knee jerk reactions was, were they not all under the same studio, the feeling would be like the staff gets a notice from the higher-ups: "Hey, our contract with u's expires by the time next week's episode and we legally cannot make any reference to them anymore. What do we do?!"

Whether we view this transition in a good or bad light, it's the last loose end to be tied up (or severed?), so now all that's left is to win the qualifier. Oh, and MAYBE resolve the point about their school not getting any new applications despite their efforts, which I incidentally thought was an interesting move. It makes predicting what happens in Season 2 harder, and therefor more fun!

(In b4 Mari just says her parents will fund the school to keep it open until they win Love Live. "It's Money!")

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by novalysis

Frankly, given the choices the writers made in the first six episodes and with the initial premise, the earliest time Aqours could have realized that they couldn't be like Muse was episode eight. But that would have required the entire group to have been gathered together first. In that sense, I am puzzled at the dissatisfaction of some posters in that the realization Aqours came to in Episode 12 was "late". I think the poster coming down in Episode 8 would have been horrible writing, personally

Because ever since Episode 8, the writers more or less committed firmly to putting Aqours on their own unique path. In a sense, I think the idea that Episode 12 is the first true episode of Sunshine independent of it's predecessor frankly is quite ridiculous. It's already been happening since Episode 7.

As for the act of taking down the poster - I see this as the functional equivalent of an anime where a girl cuts her own hair as a sign of some resolve. Chika taking down the poster is not a renunciation of her admiration of Muse. It's an active commitment not to make this admiration a trap of imitation instead.

The writers didn't have to make the choices they did in the 1st 6 episodes, but the issue is the similar recruiting structure can only be reshuffled unless they decide to frontload or backload multiple characters. There might've been sufficient changes in detail to convince people Sunshine!! and the OG reached similar mechanisms through convergent evolution, but add in the references and it's like feathering a bat to make it look like a bird. They needed the references if the story was going to be this, but that was a balance beyond their abilities and it became a hit or miss situation instead. In terms of broader story beats, episode 7 and up shifted it significantly, but the feathers frenzied the fans so much by that point it didn't matter. The caveat is Sunshine!! season 2 doesn't have to do recruitment and doesn't have as easy a thing to borrow from OG season 2; if it somehow does, people are not going to overlook that even when the writers have taken the feathers off the bat

tl;dr: don't feather a bat to look like a bird when we already believe that both can fly

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by outlaw97

Yeah I don't think it was late; I had already assumed that the majority of Season 1 would be introducing Aqours while slowly but surely easing viewers out of u's mode, and Season 2 being Aqours' real start.

I agree, which was why I saw Episode 12 not so much as Muse worshiping, but possible foreshadowing of Season 2 plans.

The haircut analogy is a good one, and is most likely what the writers intended. For me personally, I would've preferred the poster to stay up. Or alternatively, a scene of either You/Riko/Chika's sister walking into her room to see her taking down the poster, and then Chika talking about what we've discussed here. Not subtle, but we've already established that Love Live is anything but, right?

Actually, I think Chika talking to Dia about this would have been most interesting way to go about the "pulling the poster" down part. Since Dia technically is an even more fanatical fangirl than Chika for Muse.

One of my other knee jerk reactions was, were they not all under the same studio, the feeling would be like the staff gets a notice from the higher-ups: "Hey, our contract with u's expires by the time next week's episode and we legally cannot make any reference to them anymore. What do we do?!"

Nothing stops them from making references to Otonokizaka's Idol Research Club even were those legal obligations present. I actually think that any Muse reference in Season 2, will indirectly occur via Otonokizaka rather than Muse itself. Especially if the fate of Uranohoshi takes center stage next season.

Whether we view this transition in a good or bad light, it's the last loose end to be tied up (or severed?), so now all that's left is to win the qualifier. Oh, and MAYBE resolve the point about their school not getting any new applications despite their efforts, which I incidentally thought was an interesting move. It makes predicting what happens in Season 2 harder, and therefor more fun!

Just one correction: Aqours is through to the next round. So technically, winning the Love Live finals is the next step, and Episode 8 hints that Saint Snow is but the tip of a ice-berg.

Speaking of which, I cannot see the Uranohoshi is closing sub-plot started in Episode 6 ending in Episode 13. I simply can't. I dare say whatever one thinks about Episode 6 daring to re-run the same plot-point that the OG did; it's safe to say Sunshine will have a very unique take of the School is closing plot. With zero persons signing up for orientation, we are slipping into terra-incognita, and the problem isn't going to be solved by the club putting up a spectacular performance - no matter how spectacular that performance is, demographic realities persist. I'd say they are going to use the School is closing plot as a giant sledge hammer to fairly crudely differentiate Aqours from Muse.

There are some actual concrete steps Mari's family could take to improve the accessibility of the school. They could set up a shuttle bus service between Numazu and the school every fifteen minutes at the start of the school day, and after classes are done till clubs are finished (the costs to provide such a service should be modest from Mari's perspective). They could resolve the problem of the hill climb by building an elevator up the hill.

My prediction is this: it turns out Mari's family owns multiple schools and runs an education chain of private schools much like UTX. When school merger occurs, it's not Uranohoshi that's merges, but another school relocated and merged into Uranohoshi's current location, with massive accessibility upgrades for Uranohoshi high.

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

The writers didn't have to make the choices they did in the 1st 6 episodes, but the issue is the similar recruiting structure can only be reshuffled unless they decide to frontload or backload multiple characters. There might've been sufficient changes in detail to convince people Sunshine!! and the OG reached similar mechanisms through convergent evolution, but add in the references and it's like feathering a bat to make it look like a bird. They needed the references if the story was going to be this, but that was a balance beyond their abilities and it became a hit or miss situation instead. In terms of broader story beats, episode 7 and up shifted it significantly, but the feathers frenzied the fans so much by that point it didn't matter. The caveat is Sunshine!! season 2 doesn't have to do recruitment and doesn't have as easy a thing to borrow from OG season 2; if it somehow does, people are not going to overlook that even when the writers have taken the feathers off the bat

tl;dr: don't feather a bat to look like a bird when we already believe that both can fly

As I've said earlier , the best way for Episode 1-6 to convince viewers that Sunshine and OG paralleled each other because of convergent episode, was to run those six episodes in the way they did with Yohane's in episode 5 (which had zero Muse references if I recalled, and no parallels at all to anything in the OG), or at worst, Hanamaru/Ruby's episode if references really were needed to indicate continuity. I won't say that the balance between the needed references to run the story they choose to, while getting Suneshine to find it's own voice was necessarily beyond the abilities of the writers all throughout the first six episodes. There were episodes where that balance was very well established - probably Episodes 4 and 5, which were the strongest of the First 6 - those were episodes that really sold the idea that the similarities between Sunshine and OG were a result of "convergent evolution" rather than imitation to me. And of course, there were others where the balance really failed - Episode 1, the first half of Episode 2 and much of Episode 6 stands out as prime examples of such a failure. Getting Chika to wear Honoka's personality for six episodes was a big gamble that really weighed the first half down. I cringed when Chika hounded Riko in episode 2, and I cringed again in Episode 3 when it turned out Chika advertised the wrong time for the performance, because of how distinctively "Honoka" those scenes were.

As for the second season, since Aqours got passed the qualifiers, unlike Muse the first time round; and the field has been implied to have gotten much more formidable, I think it's almost impossible to copy the Second Season of the OG. The characterization episodes that made up a large chunk of the OG second season has already been run and spent throughout the course of Sunshine. Off the top of my head, there are only a few remaining character details about Aqours that could be spun into OG second season style characterization episodes that we've not already covered in the first season of Sunshine: namely Mari is an industrial-metal fan, and Ruby has a phobia for men.

I anticipate that the second season of Sunshine would touch on topics such as:
- Aqours being free to be themselves runs the risk, as Yohane points out that the team might run separately.
- The School closure plot is getting dragged out into the Second Season.
- The conversation with Saint Snow this episode raises the possibility of a classic : is the journey or destination more important clash of ideals conflicts.
- We might find out the fate of the Otonokizaka Idol Research Club, something the first season seems to be trying to hide as much as they can - for example, Dia in Episode 10 getting cut off before she can explain the landscape of Love Live and how it evolved from the time of Muse and A-RISE. Something that this episode teases so strongly when Aqours visited Otonokizaka.
- A far more extensive take on what groups does after breaking the preliminaries to pave the way for a victory in the Finals. The OG Second season skimped heavily on that part, but with so many more episodes to go in Sunshine Season 2, I don't think it's even possible for the writers to perfunctorily address that plot-point as they did during the OG Season season.


What I hope the second season will touch on:
- Bring in Sub-units to the anime continuity of Love Live!
- More rivals for Muse beyond Saint Snow, in the vein of a true Sports Anime.
- Aqours being more adventurous in the genre of music they are exploring.

[blakstealth]

Originally Posted by grecefar

I can't believe you guys go that far in debate with a anime of idols lol, I'm impressed.

it's not for the faint of heart.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by novalysis

the earliest time Aqours could have realized that they couldn't be like Muse was episode eight. But that would have required the entire group to have been gathered together first.

Yes, the change in path needed to have all nine gathered first. But the three seniors had their own "crash" story independent of the "crash" story of the younger girls. That complicated the plot. All the possibilities I can see result in an even less optimal progression than we currently have.

I rewatched ep1 to get a sense of how Chika went from audience to participant again. I can confirm that she spent time watching and memorizing Muse performances before wanting to become an idol herself. But look at what she says is her motivation, from 17:30 onwards:

Originally Posted by Chika

I wanted to get together with others and do the things they did.
I wanted to reach the same heights they did.
I wanted to shine like they did.

There's no evidence in which phase of her fandom she got that Muse poster, but my conjecture is it had become a roadsign for her by the time she had decided to become an idol herself.

"This way to what you want to become." It says to her every morning. Until ep8, that was a good thing to her. Then, she became increasingly uncertain.

In ep12, some have argued that removing the poster was redundant or blunt as symbolism after the beach and the feather. But look at it from Chika's point of view, she doesn't know that. She needs a physical sign of her own and all she has is this roadsign that's pointing in the wrong direction. So, she removes it as the first step on her true path.

That, I think is enough said.

One idea for a replacement to fill the blank spot on her door is the picture of the open ocean with blue skies above. The sun rises over the horizon and a boat sails towards it.

Note that you don't need a winning streak to remain a potent force in a competition with massive number of entrants.

Oh, I understand that. My point is having a system to produce winners can at least be more likely to produce top contenders than lacking such a system.

The second thing, how often do schools talk about runner ups?

The third thing is, winners or not, school idols have to be able to promote themselves for the next round. Unless Riko was so dense as to tune out all of them once she realized it wasn't school (as opposed to extracuricular) operations, there would have been PA announcements that she could hear, posters where she could see and flyers shoved in her face sooner or later. She couldn't have missed all of them.

But you appear to understand the significance of the potential lack of such, so I won't belabour the point.

So technically, winning the Love Live finals is the next step, and Episode 8 hints that Saint Snow is but the tip of a ice-berg.

Except, while Aquors is good, they're not that yet. They've found they need to find their own path, which they haven't found yet, let alone traveled. For all that the Love Live finals can be done in one episode, as in LL S2, there's no reasonable way for them to win if it's the next.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Yes, the change in path needed to have all nine gathered first. But the three seniors had their own "crash" story independent of the "crash" story of the younger girls. That complicated the plot. All the possibilities I can see result in an even less optimal progression than we currently have.

Thinking about it, the two parallel "crash" stories going on in Sunshine might well be set-up for Aqours taking a very different decision from Muse once the Third years graduate.

There's no evidence in which phase of her fandom she got that Muse poster, but my conjecture is it had become a roadsign for her by the time she had decided to become an idol herself.

"This way to what you want to become." It says to her every morning. Until ep8, that was a good thing to her. Then, she became increasingly uncertain.

One idea for a replacement to fill the blank spot on her door is the picture of the open ocean with blue skies above. The sun rises over the horizon and a boat sails towards it.

I suspect the next think we are going to see on the door, would be if Aqours gives a good account of themselves in the Finals next season. Because I do agree with you that the Finals is something reserved for next season - I was not speculating that the finals would happen in the last episode - that would be horrible writing. I don't even think the School is closing plot will be resolved next episode.

Oh, I understand that. My point is having a system to produce winners can at least be more likely to produce top contenders than lacking such a system.

Fair enough - the question then is whether the OIRC set up such a system, or never thought to do so. Because I can see that one clear differentiation that Aqours is going to make from Muse, if continuity of club becomes a theme next season, is that if the OIRC never had such a system, many members of Aqours are likely to be staunch advocates of preparing a system to try to keep the club going beyond their graduation.

The second thing, how often do schools talk about runner ups?

If you were in the competitive scene and trying to break to the top of Love Live, you'd probably be worried about the top 10 groups or so. Remember, Midnight Cats turned professional and was still talked about five years later and I don't think they came in second during the Love Live Muse won.

The third thing is, winners or not, school idols have to be able to promote themselves for the next round. Unless Riko was so dense as to tune out all of them once she realized it wasn't school (as opposed to extracuricular) operations, there would have been PA announcements that she could hear, posters where she could see and flyers shoved in her face sooner or later. She couldn't have missed all of them.

Even if the OIRC was in decline after Alisa and Yukiho left and there was no system to ensure complete success, the most clueless of leadership would have just done exactly the same thing that was done last year, and ran the whole program of PA announcements, huge poster blitzes (surely the juniors had a hand in that last year) and aggressive flyer campaigns as they had experienced under Alisa and Yukiho. I won't be surprised if School Idol blogs outright put out standard templates on how to run a publicity blitz at the beginning of the year - it's probably a near ritual for the several thousand or so groups who applied for Love Live.

Sure, they might have failed to break Qualifiers or even show up- but that would have been a shock that raised murmurs throughout the entire school. So, it's not just the case analogous to computer club you were part of never ever winning competitions after back to back successes. The case is more analogous to the computer club you were part off outright disbanding immediately after winning back to back successes. I don't find the OIRC in decline thesis being a convincing explanation for Riko being ignorant of School Idols, because it implies that the OIRC simply disbanded on the spot after Yukiho and Alisa graduated. So the bar for the first explanation for Riko's ignorance is neither being a top club nor the end of a period of success - the bar is that the OIRC outright dissolves right after their leaders score a victory. And that is abit harder to believe, so I lean towards the second explanation that Riko hasn't come completely clean with Chika about her supposed ignorance of School Idols. Can it happen? Yes, the OIRC simply needs to fail to find a composer, presuming there was no composer in the wings after Alisa and Yukiho graduated. But wait a moment, if that's the case, you'd expect Riko and other pianist like her to be approached.

This plot-thread would not have existed had Riko been a transfer student from anywhere else but Otonokizaka. I would not be surprise if Riko has not be completely honest with Chika at least, even at this point of time. Especially since anytime Riko-Chika interactions start straying to that topic, Chika clearly tip-toes very carefully when speaking with Riko during those times; trying to keep the prying to a minimum. So, I'm not sure whether we've definitely gotten the last word on Riko's experience in Otonokizaka.

Except, while Aquors is good, they're not that yet. They've found they need to find their own path, which they haven't found yet, let alone traveled. For all that the Love Live finals can be done in one episode, as in LL S2, there's no reasonable way for them to win if it's the next.

As I've implied in my hopes for the second season at the end of my post, I don't think the Finals are going to be explored in one episode. Heck, I won't be surprised if Aqours fails to win this Love Live - but becomes a Dark Horse that comes very close (top 5 placing) with a very good chance of actually winning the next tournament. Assuming of course, that the tournaments are twice yearly affairs - note that we've not been told which number this Love Live is, only the number of years that the tournament has been going for.

[Benigmatica]

I forgot about Aqours moving past the preliminaries but I'm hoping that they would attract new entrants for Uranohoshi Academy since they have none at the moment.

Mini Honk aside, I wonder if Chika and her friends will do the same once they won Love Live!, like not leaving a lasting legacy behind just like μ's?

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Benigmatica

I forgot about Aqours moving past the preliminaries but I'm hoping that they would attract new entrants for Uranohoshi Academy since they have none at the moment.

Mini Honk aside, I wonder if Chika and her friends will do the same once they won Love Live!, like not leaving a lasting legacy behind just like μ's?

I'm not sure about that. I'd say some members of Aqours WILL strive to leave a permanent legacy - Mari for one, I can also see Ruby pushing for something like this because her reason for joining Aqours is her love of the "sport" of School Idols. It really depends on how much the anime is willing to delve into the fate of the the Otonokizaka Idol Research Club. Keep in mind something: unlike Nico, who only has a few months to decide on the future of the Otonokizaka Idol Research Club she was the founder of, Chika has an entire year to decide the future of the club she founded.

There is one thing potentially favoring Aqours making a different set of decisions from Muse. Namely, the formation of Aqours involved two parallel sets of conflicts - in one, the six younger members of Aqours suffered together and experienced the taste of bitter-defeat as the six of them. In another, the three older members of Aqours ha their personal Civil War between themselves. I seriously doubt the third years even feel they have the right to suggest that Aqours leaves no legacy behind - that decision probably rest with Chika . From the perspective of the third years, the team was up and running effectively with meaningfully unique dynamics with just the younger six members. And I suspect Chika would want that decision to rest with the first years to decide - since if any project is undertaken to ensure that the club that Chika founded continues fielding teams in the years to come, teams that descend from Aqours even if they bear different names; it's the first year that would have to carry the project out. So yes, I think there might be a much higher chance that Aqours would be concern with the long term fate of the club then Muse, because of the very differing process of formation; and the fact that there were first blooded in an identity defining moment (the Zero votes revelation in episode 8) before the Third Years joined.

An argument can be made for the different stance - that Chika would decide to do exactly the same thing that Muse did and not concern herself with the future of the club she founded, and not leave any legacy behind. And I would be interested in seeing that particular argument, though it reeks too much of Chika imitating Muse, something she resolved not to do this episode.

But once more, I need to caution: we do not know what is the exact state of the Otonokizaka Idol Research Club. It is very possible the current Club might be rivals to Aqours in the second season (possibly more dangerous to Saint Snow, for all we know, it was an Otonokizaka team that ranked first during the event), and the claim that Muse left nothing behind is meant to prevent the impression that the teams the Club fields are like Muse just because Muse were alumni among the School Idol community, and in response to the large number of Idol Groups paying a pilgrimage visit to Otonokizaka. That, I believe was part of the debate I had with Jimmy over the past two or so pages: is the Otonokizaka Idol Research Club dead or alive? Because if the OIRC is dead or alive, that is likely going to have implications on possible plot-threads such as whether season 2 will bring in more rivals other than Saint Snow, and whether Riko really was ignorant of School Idols before entering Uranohoshi. If OIRC is still alive, this episode may well be one of the most crucial fore-shadowing episodes for a good chunk of the second season.

[Kakurin]

Well, after a pretty good episode 11 another mixed bag. First off, I liked the contrasting of styles between Saint Snow and Aqours (but I was pretty puzzled by why they'd meet in UTX Tokyo). The realisation of Chika and the follow-up with the feather scene was very nice too. Now, what I found questionable was the, as others have already said, sledgehammer of Muse references. Between the glorification, the Honoka-like kid, the part prior to the shrine-scene (I immediately knew that we wouldn't get a you-know-who cameo) it was just too much. In a way episode 12 is the entire Sunshine season 1 run in a microcosm. Good when making subtle references, pretty good when standing on its own feet, questionable when making all those Muse references.

But I won't talk too much about what's already been said. A point I want to make here is, with the contrast between Aqours and Saint Snow that's been established here I more than ever now want Aqours to not win Love Live. Turn what they've been preaching here into practice. Show that you can derive intrisinc value from the path instead of going with the cliché of the stuff they've been preaching here being a precondition to victory. Have Saint Snow win Love Live - only to realise in the end that they are not one step closer to getting what made A-RISE and Muse so great. Have Aqours "lose" but be the winner regardless at the end. If they go with the standard theme of Aqours winning at the end I'll be somewhat disappointed.

[Nork22]

Originally Posted by blakstealth

it's not for the faint of heart.

Indeed and all this cause some people can't stand the μ's call backs and pandering. I don't know if any other idol anime watching critics know, but idol anime has it's own meta-conversation with the fans. Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's Sunrise level of meta "slap your face because we think you are stupid", however one thing is for sure, if the show has put enough heart in there to make fans enjoy it, that makes the show pretty much a success. And this is what me, and I'm sure a few others, have been pretty much been enjoying this show without too much cynicism.

And also why I don't post a lot on the episode threads.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

But I won't talk too much about what's already been said. A point I want to make here is, with the contrast between Aqours and Saint Snow that's been established here I more than ever now want Aqours to not win Love Live. Turn what they've been preaching here into practice. Show that you can derive intrisinc value from the path instead of going with the cliché of the stuff they've been preaching here being a precondition to victory. Have Saint Snow win Love Live - only to realise in the end that they are not one step closer to getting what made A-RISE and Muse so great. Have Aqours "lose" but be the winner regardless at the end. If they go with the standard theme of Aqours winning at the end I'll be somewhat disappointed.

Personally, my preferred outcome would be Aqours to do better than Saint Snow in the finals, because they grasp the real essence of being a School Idol, and Saint Snow does not. But not to win the first Love Live they participate in - I want to see them lose to a team that also "gets it" and has "gotten it" for longer with more experience. That to me both drives home the value of the path itself over the outcome, while also allowing Aqours to practice what they preached - they at least turned a zero into something that was not, and for the team, aware of the broader picture and just how new they are to the scene, that's a huge victory for them.

It seems to me almost as if Chika thinks of the club she founds as a multi-year project, a work that ideally outlast her time in the school. Of course, that club will not win the title in the first year of it's formation - that's just unrealistic considering how much more of a headstart other Schools have over Uranohoshi. But if they can establish themselves among the ranks of the better schools in the competition, that progress is both sufficient and a triumph in themselves; and a foundation for doing even better next time.

That to me seems to be the ideology that Chika is trying to put forth to the club. Go on the journey, and so long as you enjoy the journey and the journey brings you up a few numbers, it's a a victory. The object is not to win, that's a path to getting chained down. When your object is to enjoy the journey while accomplishing progress for your successors to build upon, that's where you truly become able to run freely into the exciting unknown. After all, there are 7000 groups and there can only be 1 winner. Just being in the top 1 percentile of participants and remaining in a position to challenge for the title is already amazing. It doesn't matter that you actually win the title. If your efforts to bring Zero to One means that it's your juniors that reap the harvest of a trophy so be it.

In that sense, I think the Zero to One ideal is going to lead to Chika making a very different decision about the fate of Aqours and her club once the Third years "graduate." Chika's goals in Love Live is the sort of goal with a long term vision in mind that looks beyond just the current tournament. The very idea of going from "zero to one" already greatly differentiates Aqours from Muse.

Originally Posted by Nork22

Indeed and all this cause some people can't stand the μ's call backs and pandering. I don't know if any other idol anime watching critics know, but idol anime has it's own meta-conversation with the fans. Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's Sunrise level of meta "slap your face because we think you are stupid", however one thing is for sure, if the show has put enough heart in there to make fans enjoy it, that makes the show pretty much a success. And this is what me, and I'm sure a few others, have been pretty much been enjoying this show without too much cynicism.

And also why I don't post a lot on the episode threads.

You don't have to be meta-critical or unhappy at μ's call backs and pandering to engage in speculation about where Love Live Sunshine is going to do next. Not every long post is a complain or a debate about the merits or de-merits of call backs. Some long posts are attempts to speculate on whether the show is throwing up clever foreshadowing in future episodes. Speculation isn't necessarily cynicism - if anything, it's optimism that the writers have meticulously planned Love Live Sunshine ahead, and very little that happens in Sunshine, is not used as a basis to build up or foreshadow future content. The fact the third year conflict, You arc, and Aqours is not Muse ideas could be predicted as far back as the period between Episode 6 to 8 actually testifies to how well thought out Love Live Sunshine is as a show.

[Jimmy C]

They said Muse left nothing behind... except Umi's crazy training schedule from S1E10, that the rest of the group rejected. Which eventually landed in Dia's hands years later. She stuck an "Aquors" label over Muse on the title and presented it to the rest of her group in LLS Ep10 and only Kanan thought it was doable.
Just imagine that schedule being discarded by one group and being picked up by the next, and the next, and the next...

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

They said Muse left nothing behind... except Umi's crazy training schedule from S1E10, that the rest of the group rejected. Which eventually landed in Dia's hands years later. She stuck an "Aquors" label over Muse on the title and presented it to the rest of her group in LLS Ep10 and only Kanan thought it was doable.
Just imagine that schedule being discarded by one group and being picked up by the next, and the next, and the next...

I won't be surprised if that schedule ended up in the hands of the next Love Live group after Aqours. And it will be a running gag used every single time Love Live moves on to a new series.

Soon, we would get an Label-ception of every single protagonist group in Love Live stacked on-top of that poor schedule, giving a new meaning to the word, over the top. And then, one day, one of the members will be an active teenage V-logger who records her group infamously trying the schedule out, and the schedule winds up gaining a legendary status in the School Idol world.

[outlaw97]

Originally Posted by novalysis

I won't be surprised if that schedule ended up in the hands of the next Love Live group after Aqours. And it will be a running gag used every single time Love Live moves on to a new series.

Soon, we would get an Label-ception of every single protagonist group in Love Live stacked on-top of that poor schedule.

So u's DID leave a legacy after all!

Thanks for the correction about the qualifiers - that makes it even less cut and dry as to what the final episode next week will cover:

1. They go full sports tournament mode with brackets and multiple elimination rounds, of which only the first phase is covered this season.

2. The Love Live itself is put to the side for season 2 and they spend the episode clearing up the school being merged subplot

3. They focus on just "beating" Saint Snow, whether in the tournament or a more metaphorical sense

4. Some jumbled mess of all 3, with a big reveal that Love Live becomes a world tournament for season 2 (Me channeling some Gundam Build Fighters here )

[Benigmatica]

I wonder if there would be another Love Live! competition should Aqours won't win the first time around? Yes, it'll be like the original series, but I want them to win after taking their own path!