Anime Saimoe Tournament 2006: October Finals! [READ THE RULES]

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Moe should mean that the cutest, most vulnerable-seeming character should win every time (e.g., Kyon no imouto), the one that makes you burn with a desire to protect them at all costs. Not characters with swords or knives or powerful magic they can use to protect themselves.

Regarding the definition of moe, I'm not precisely sure why the presence/absence of weapons would exclude someone from consideration. Some of the more violent characters have surprisingly vulnerable and/or emotional sides. This is definitely not always the case, but surely the concept of a tough guy facade around a vulnerable core could be considered moe as well? Actually I would argue the psychological aspect involved makes them more moe because such a character cannot protect themself from simple emotions the rest of us deal with every day. But on the other hand, when's the last time Kyon's imouto actually had to deal with something that she needed physical protection from (the definition you appear to be operating under)? I guess where I'm going with this is that I find emotional vulnerability (regardless of character archetype) triggers the moe-part of my brain much more than physical vulnerability. Otherwise you're right, we'd all just vote for the smallest, weakest, cutest loli character (it's my belief this would actually be Ana from Ichigo Mashimaro, not Kyon's imouto, but YMMV).

Faye Valentine (from Cowboy Bebop) is tough and more than capable of handling herself in a fight, but there's a scene where she lays down in the wreckage of her house where she's diagrammed furniture on the ground with a stick that is significantly more moe (for me) than anything Kyon's imouto was involved in during MoSH (though she was quite cute in the bag and everytime she knocks her head).

In a slightly different example - I find Nana (from Bokura ga Ita) less moe than Yamamoto. Nana is balanced, intelligent and articulate about her feelings, what especially about her requires protection? It's not like she's liable to need physical protection anytime soon. Yamamoto, on the other hand, is cynical and rather hard to like, but she's obviously very raw and hurt, that part of her triggers my moe-spot in my brain. I'm not saying I like the Yamamoto character more (I actually am pretty sure I like Nana more), but Nana's never really triggered the moe spot in my brain.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Psieye

Ahaha, yeah regardless of the exact definition and semantics of what Moe is, it's inevitable that it's going to turn into a bit of a popularity contest. It is worth noting though, that Moe has an entirely subjective definition that is kept vague and fuzzy ^^;; Well, for an attempt at answering, see kj1980's post on it....

The way the term has drifted is not limited to Anime Suki or this contest. In Japanese sources it often seems to just mean "turns me on." Back in 2004, when kj1980 said NoSanninWa had got it, here is what NSW had written: "For Hazuki I feel this need to nurture and protect, as if she had found a snug nest in my heart where she curled up spreading warmth." That is the kind of feeling I think is really moe. But words change their meaning with use, usually becoming less precise. Sigh.

Personally, Nana-chan in Bokura ga Ita actually is my current most moe character, and she isn't even in the contest (possibly only because she's in a summer series). As for today's match, I definitely think Shinku is not moe, but Nobue-oneesan is barely moe herself, and only when she's sitting by the riverbank smoking, lol. I don't really see either Becky or Alice Carroll as moe, either, except maybe when chibi Becky is being harassed by her larger students.

Rooboy666 makes some great points. Since Hazuki in Tsukuyomi seems moe to me (usually), I can't say that absolute weakness is a requirement, just ability to awaken protective instincts. And I certainly could just as easily have used Ana Coppola as my example rather than Kyon's sister. However, my own moe instincts don't extend to Yuri in Bokura, much as I like her as a character.

But now we're talking. I think this is how we have to think of moe: as including that desire to protect and cherish. Fuzzy as the term may be, it still should lie within those bounds.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by rooboy666

Faye Valentine (from Cowboy Bebop) is tough and more than capable of handling herself in a fight, but there's a scene where she lays down in the wreckage of her house where she's diagrammed furniture on the ground with a stick that is significantly more moe (for me) than anything Kyon's imouto was involved in during MoSH (though she was quite cute in the bag and everytime she knocks her head).

OT: i consider that scene more tragic then moe. As evident by what Faye had lost and a comparison by what she once was and what she currently is. There is also that scene between her and her old classsmate who is now a grandmother.

[rooboy]

Maybe it's the INFJ in me, but one of the more disturbing things I've noticed in the general thread of this conversation (over the last month or so) is the conviction by some people that there's an absolute correct answer out there. Things you don't consider moe at all could easily trigger that emotion or feeling in others. Moe is not something that has a precise definition because it's a feeling. It's like saying there's a "correct" love or hate or sad.

I'm pretty sure that the usage of moe that Saimoe is actually using is just "turn ons". This is essentially the same usage that Suzumiya Haruhi and Renge (from Ouran High Host Club) used. In the same sense that "fanservice" originally meant "things extra to the story that give a nod to the fans" and has somehow become "cute girls/boys and near nekkidness".

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Personally, Nana-chan in Bokura ga Ita actually is my current most moe character, and she isn't even in the contest (possibly only because she's in a summer series).

You're correct, she wouldn't qualify until next year (she's after the imaginary dividing line).
I actually find Becky very moe (along with, of all people, Negi Springfield) because they're kids trying to be very brave and adult. As an eight year old child who was basically left to fend for myself for weeks at a time by an alcoholic single parent - I can relate pretty easily to how scary that can be. This is one of the few instances which actually overcomes my general "loli is my anti-moe" principle.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

OT: i consider that scene more tragic then moe. As evident by what Faye had lost and a comparison by what she once was and what she currently is.

The tragedy feeds the moe feeling for me. I also consider that scene exceptionally tragic.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by rooboy666

Maybe it's the INFJ in me, but one of the more disturbing things I've noticed in the general thread of this conversation (over the last month or so) is the conviction by some people that there's an absolute correct answer out there. Things you don't consider moe at all could easily trigger that emotion or feeling in others. Moe is not something that has a precise definition because it's a feeling. It's like saying there's a "correct" love or hate or sad.

I just couldn't agree more with this.

My definition of moe is different from that of others because it's what I consider to be moe, and not because of what I am supposed to consider moe.

EDIT:

Not sure if I used the correct words there, but, lets just say that moe can be something different for everyone.

[Deathkillz]

just got back a while ago and its dam say to see gin getting kicked out

anyways my support today would be on shinku and i dnt have any interest in the other group

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

just got back a while ago and its dam say to see gin getting kicked out

anyways my support today would be on shinku and i dnt have any interest in the other group

At least chikaru made it.

But poor gin

Anyone voting for Shinku today.

Never seen the other girls so I am not voting.

[Bloodseeker]

I don't think that moe necessarily has anything to do with how tough or how weak they are, how capable or how incapable they are, how violent or how pacifistic they are, or how vulnerable or how invulnerable they are, or whether they're the victim or the victimizer. Weakness and blind pacifism isn't something that I generally find to be cute or a turn on. (probably since if there's one piece of uncommon knowledge that life has taught me over and over again, its that incapable people that whine a lot and don't know how to assert themselves are generally very selfish and are more than willing to take help but not so eager to give it; to me, a character that shares those qualities probably isn't moe to me)

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Back in 2004, when kj1980 said NoSanninWa had got it, here is what NSW had written: "For Hazuki I feel this need to nurture and protect, as if she had found a snug nest in my heart where she curled up spreading warmth." That is the kind of feeling I think is really moe.

That's taking it to the extreme, but yeah, that's the general idea. If I like a character enough that I care when they get abused (in the sense that I don't like that particular character getting abused, not just that I think that the abuse itself is jacked up), to the point where I want to jump in there and kick the crap out of the abuser, the abused character is moe.

Let's take the case of a character that doesn't really fit the moe archetype (at least not as far as the anime is concerned)... Rider.

Spoiler for Fate/Stay Night:

Even though it was inevitable that Saber was going to win that fight (the fight wasn't built up enough and it was still too early to wear off Saber's protagonist immunity), I didn't like it when Saber killed her off. I wanted the much cooler and sexier Rider to kill Saber and walk away from that fight alive. They couldn't kill her off like that! She deserved better than to be the first one to go and to serve as nothing more than an early show of what Saber is capable of. Rider was moe.

On the other hand, let's look at a character that fits the moe archetype almost perfectly, but that I don't consider moe... Nina.

Spoiler for Fullmetal Alchemist:

When Tucker turned her into chimera, a lot of people got pissed and Tucker quickly became one of the most hated anime characters in some of those communities. I can't say that I was one of those people that got pissed. Why? Because I couldn't care less about Nina one way or the other, so it didn't really bother me when they screwed her over. She lacked the moe quality that would have made me care.

So, whether they're weak, vulnerable, and a victim or strong, capable, and the victimizer aren't necessarily things that decide whether a character is moe or not. Its whether you like them enough that you'd want to their side if they were getting abused and punish the abuser. Protect them.

[Furudanuki]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Rooboy666 makes some great points. Since Hazuki in Tsukuyomi seems moe to me (usually), I can't say that absolute weakness is a requirement, just ability to awaken protective instincts. And I certainly could just as easily have used Ana Coppola as my example rather than Kyon's sister. However, my own moe instincts don't extend to Yuri in Bokura, much as I like her as a character.

But now we're talking. I think this is how we have to think of moe: as including that desire to protect and cherish. Fuzzy as the term may be, it still should lie within those bounds.

It seems we are on the same wavelength for the most part. If I catagorize a character as being moe they have in some form or fashion made me want to comfort and or protect them, be it physically or emotionally. For lack of a better way of putting it, they manage to strongly engage my paternal instinct. And instead of "weakness" I would substitute the term "vulnerable". A character can be very strong or powerful and still be vulnerable, and thus I can find them to be very moe.

For example - Fate and Nanoha are both powerful magic-users. Nanoha has her family and friends to support her. She may suffer setbacks and have some sad moments, but she is essentially a pretty happy and well adjusted kid. So Nanoha may be cute, kind, and a great character overall, but I don't give her a high moe rating. Fate on the other hand, is despised and punished by the one she loves and whose acceptance she craves. No matter what she does it is never good enough, and on top of that she is forced to fight against someone who actually does want to understand and help her. I spent most of the first season wanting to pull her off of the screen, hug her tightly and let her cry herself out. Therefore, Fate gets a very high moe rating from me.

Given the nature of what I consider moe, it should be fairly obvious that a lot of the characters that hit those buttons will tend to be young girls - young boys too, but there tend to be fewer of those in anime. Hell, there are even some animals in anime that I think are moe, like Maya (the Iriomote cat in Azumanga Daioh). That is why I prefer to draw a very large and clear dividing line between "moe" and "turn on", and will tend to cringe when the terms are used interchangeably. Binchou-tan is extremely moe, but I just want to buy the poor little thing a new blanket, not crawl under it with her. For me, moe does not equate with sexy at all. I'm not sexually attracted to children (or animals ) and don't consider the whole loli-pedo thing to be a laughing matter, especially since I have two small girls of my own.

That said, I certainly think that a character can be both moe and sexy. Best example for me would have to be Nerine from Shuffle!. Her shared history with Lycoris, original reason for wanting to be with Rin, and the faint hint of sadness that always seemed to surround her gives her a high moe rating. At the same time, I find that her appearance, mannerisms, voice and obvious intelligence make her a very sexy little demoness indeed. So the moe side that wanted to hug Fate would also want to hug Nerine, but there is another side would probably want to nibble on Nerine's lovely ears while doing so.

BTW, I wholeheartedly agree about Nana-chan, because for me her level of moe approaches lethal proportions. The jury is out on Yuri: a lot is going to depend on exactly what her true motivations turn out to be.

[Sorrow-K]

Like I said before, I don't think moe is anything much more than something one finds really cute.

Anyway, onto today's groups. Shinku is a near unbackable favourite, so I don't see any point in discussing her match. The interesting one for me is Alice v Becky, since this appears to be the greatest oppurtunity for an ARIA character to progress into the next round. Obviously I'm supporting Alice not just as an ARIA fan, but because I want the last round to have the diversity and representatives from several series (although I suppose this point is moot in this match, since Becky is the only PPD character left in the tournament). I don't have much question that this will be close, but the odds are probably with Alice, since she's one of the more popular characters from a big name series and she outpolled Becky in their respective 2nd round groups. I wouldn't mind seeing a count, though, even if it is early stages yet.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

Like I said before, I don't think moe is anything much more than something one finds really cute.

i agree but i would also add that personality also come to play (for me anyway)
like i find both suiseiseki and suigintou cute but for me gin wins over sui miles away cause i love gin's "isolated" personality more than trouble causing sui

[Sister Princess]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

From the results and the discussion, it seems to me that this has become a popularity contest rather than a moe tournament. Is that the case?

Moe should mean that the cutest, most vulnerable-seeming character should win every time (e.g., Kyon no imouto), the one that makes you burn with a desire to protect them at all costs. Not characters with swords or knives or powerful magic they can use to protect themselves.

Sorry I haven't read all the threads. Maybe this has been discussed earlier.

In this case, what's your definition on moe~ for following characters?

Fate Tessarossa
Chikaru (Strawberry Panic)
Shana
Nagato Yuki
Suzumiya Haruhi

Does tsundere, sexy clash with the key concept of moe~?

[panzerfan]

Well in the sense of wanting to protect'em, I'd leave Suzumiya and Chikaru out. In the sense of personality pull, the weakest of them to me is Shana. I don't think that sexy and tsundere clashes with it but they're just elements in determining "moe"~.

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by Furudanuki

If I catagorize a character as being moe they have in some form or fashion made me want to comfort and or protect them, be it physically or emotionally.

Thats a perfectly good explanation.

But otoh, someone could be Moe for black socks, and that wouldnt mean they either want to protect or comfort them...

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by Sister Princess

Does tsundere, sexy clash with the key concept of moe~?

I think there's a problem with viewing 'moe' exclusively in terms of the categories themselves. Tsunderekkos, as a group, for example, tend to draw a lot of generalized love or hate towards themselves. At the same time, the quality "tsundere" isn't what makes the character moe or not moe - it's the individual personalities of the characters themselves. Even amongst tsunderes in general, you have varying levels of tsuntsun and deredere. Having a bad experience with one of the extremes may turn you off the stereotype in general.

Some characters have really well developed, complex personalties, and by pidgeonholing them with a group judgement, you risk missing out on things that you might otherwise consider moe. Depending on the public exposure of some of these characters, though, sometimes the labels are all you have to go by.

Of course, that's a problem with any stereotype, for that matter.

[Psieye]

Yep, there are at least 2 very distinct and almost mutually exclusive definitions of Moe out there, probably more that share only some common ground with each other. This competition doesn't care which definition that you use, nor whether you're even thinking of Moe when you're voting.

I guess "Moe Elements" are largely turning to the 'turn on' definition of Moe - where just about anything (from hair style, to personality traits, to circumstances, to elements of their clothes) is a Moe Element for some body of people out there.

The "I want to care for them" definition can't be so neatly categorised into trigger elements. We know when we feel this type of Moe but exactly what triggers it is only described by anecdotal case-by-case descriptions.

A possible 3rd definition would come from "sheer respect" of sorts - a prime example being Nanoha in S2 with her "White Devil" line, which can move you a long way. Doesn't fit in with "vulnerable" nor "sexy turn on" but it can certainly clench your chest in a sombre/reverentic way. Well, I'm playing Touhou games lately and this reaction is hitting me a lot with many of the characters there. Miyazawa Yukino (Kare Kano) also hit me with this reaction pretty hard towards the final volumes of the Manga (beyond the scope of the anime). It may be quasi-Moe, but it's a pretty strong factor for influencing the votes that come to a character. Which is why even though I think Fate is more Moe than Nanoha, the latter is an uncertain threat and not just because she's a cute loli who's the main character.


Edit:

Some characters have really well developed, complex personalties, and by pidgeonholing them with a group judgement, you risk missing out on things that you might otherwise consider moe. Depending on the public exposure of some of these characters, though, sometimes the labels are all you have to go by.

Of course, that's a problem with any stereotype, for that matter.

Agreed. Humans have a tendency to like categorising/pidgeonholing things for easier processing. However, you can't even categorise a single human/character into his/her own category - people change with time and with location/circumstance. When one is seriously thinking about people/characters, a lot of factors need to be processed and concessions must be made that we are very very far from omniscience. Now toss in the complication of stereotyping... yeah...

[Lambda]

I'm note sure you're going to get anywhere purely by specifying correct targets or reasons. I mean, didn't it all start off with things like trains or something like that?

Myself, well, on one hand I completely identify with moe as "wanting to protect and cherish", for instance I find Fate far more moe than Nanoha for essentially the same reasons as Furudanuki. But that's only one of a few different things which I think of as moe. I'm moe for Aruruu (is that good phraseology?) forgiving an attack on her without a second thought. I'm moe for Haruhi throughout the concert episode. I'm moe for Hazuki standing motionless for long enough for star trails to appear on a photograph. And I can very clearly identify which things which engage my emotions are not moe.

The best factor dividing the two camps (in me) seems to be a sense of closeness. Most of the great emotional moments of anime, stuff like the end of Gunbuster for instance, have a certain distance to them. they're art, they're somehow "above" ordinary existence. With moe, it's more like the person in question is actually a real member of my family. It's like most of the time, I see drama as happening some distance away from me, but when moe is happening it's right next to me, sort of.

Well, it's not that simple. By far my biggest moe is for Lain, and that's definitely "protect and cherish". It's still a disproportionately large chunk of this category I've identified in my anime-watching feelings, and I'm sure that's no accident. When it comes to working out why I've got this set of feelings in which that is such a significant part, that's where things get tricky...

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

Thats a perfectly good explanation.
But otoh, someone could be Moe for black socks, and that wouldnt mean they either want to protect or comfort them...

That's because they're using moe in the more collequial "turn on" (not necessarily in a sexual way). That's the problem with made-up terms (like fanservice) - they're not precisely specific because people can't agree on what they mean. Once they've been around long enough to drift (as moe has) it becomes almost impossible to form any kind of consensus.

For example, I use fanservice in the broader sense of the word - Peter Jackson appearing in the Lord of the Rings movies is fanservice. Tsubomi (a character who has a cameo in the Shuffle anime, is not named and has no effect on the plot) is fanservice - even though she's fully clothed. But more than half the time I see the word used, it just means nearly nekkid people (usually girls, for some reason it's not called fanservice if it's guys).
Similarly, some people use moe to mean the one and some to mean the other. I'm pretty sure Saimoe is using it in the more collequial "things you like" (a better phrase than "turn ons") sense because this is pretty much where the term has drifted to today. In MoSH, Haruhi isn't using it in the "protect" sense. The term has drifted from it's original interpretation, but it's not like you can turn back the clock on it (anymore than I can do so with fanservice - no matter how much I try).

In an academic sense, I prefer the original usage of the word. It fills a unique spot in the vocabulary. However, in terms of this contest it's much easier to use it in the more collequial sense because that's way the contest is set up. At least, that's the way I've been looking at it. As always, YMMV.

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by rooboy666

That's because they're using moe in the more collequial "turn on" (not necessarily in a sexual way). That's the problem with made-up terms (like fanservice) - they're not precisely specific because people can't agree on what they mean. Once they've been around long enough to drift (as moe has) it becomes almost impossible to form any kind of consensus.

Hrm, well speaking strictly of how I have seen it used in Japanese, it has never meant anyhing else besides something people like, or a person who has a fetish/liking/reaction to certain things. This whole "want to protect" meaning for the word seems to only exist on the english side, at least as far as I have observed. Perhaps someone here took an explanation the wrong way and ran with it...

Personally I believe the etymology of it is a deliberate henkan misu for "燃える" : describing a feeling as "burning"

Saying "X is Moe" for me translates to "I have a fetish for X" (but without the super- strong negative sexual connotation of "fetish" in english, and intstead a regular strength one )

[Sushi-Y]

There is no "definitive definition" for moe, everybody "sort of" knows what it means, but there never was a universal description that everyone agreed on.

For the record, I agree with Akamatsu Ken's definition of moe:
http://matthew.animeblogger.net/arch..._talks_moe.php

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

Personally I believe the etymology of it is a deliberate henkan misu for "燃える" : describing a feeling as "burning"

For theories about the origin of moe, you should take a look at its Japanese wikipedia entry.