Birth, Aging and Death In Soul Society

[Flashdance]

Originally Posted by fizzmaister

one problem with the theories that power from consumed souls (hollow or bounto) lose their reatsu (or part of it) and the consumer gains permanently it is that it violates the laws of thermodynamics, specifically entropy.

I think that they power up somewhat like how Ichigo did, when he took Rukia's power. The souls lose their reatsu but it slowly refills (back from the consumer, like a rubber band) The consuming souls ability to hold the energy would be based on the percent increase in spirit energy (compared to the person's baseline) (a spiritually weak person would have a harder time holding on to extra energy that a naturally stronger person.)

I might add that basic physic laws may not apply to Soul Society or any other dimension...

@The Small One

A Menos is simplified a hollow which lifes in Hueco Mundo, however there are different kinds of Menos in Huceo Mundo.
And in the Anime no Menos has been defeated yet. Ichigo only injured it so it escaped.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Flashdance

I might add that basic physic laws may not apply to Soul Society or any other dimension...

@The Small One

A Menos is simplified a hollow which lifes in Hueco Mundo, however there are different kinds of Menos in Huceo Mundo.
And in the Anime no Menos has been defeated yet. Ichigo only injured it so it escaped.

No we were told that Menos were what was formed when a large number of hollows combine in to one when the first one showed up. There has been more information given in the manga about them in the later chapters. As for smallone's question given how the espada act I would say it looks like the strongest absorbes the weeker ones.

[fizzmaister]

[QUOTE=Flashdance]I might add that basic physic laws may not apply to Soul Society or any other dimension...

well why not, I bet that several people in the thought group (if there is/was one, I don't think KT can do this on the spot constantly without people at least checking for continuity and explanations. If KT made the explenetions earlier he won't be caught in a trap that needs retconing. However I still think that my idea that my recharging idea would work.

[senesti]

This is just my theory

I personally think it's circumstances that attribute to aging in SS.

Soi Fong was shown as a girl of about 5 in episode 57 when we first start into the flashback.Then she is shown as a girl of I am guessing 15,In present day SS she is at least 18.(I tend to lowball on the ages and they turn out to be a couple years older so I said 15 instead of 14)

In order for her to fulfill her duty to "live for her lady" she had to age.Then her desire to surpass Yoruichi drives her and she aged more.

Same with Byakuya and Yoruichi it is obvious they knew each other as children in order to fulfill their duties as heir to noble throwns they had to age.

It works the same way with bad situations ie living in Izuru a hard district of rukongai to live in.

[chzon]

So what you're saying is...they can control the rate at which they age?

[senesti]

Originally Posted by chzon

So what you're saying is...they can control the rate at which they age?

Not knowingly more like instinctivly.They reach maturity so that they can make full use of their power.

[kagato3]

going back and checking some things for a post I came acrossed this tidbit that seems like it might end the debate about births in SS. Its about the bleach data book Souls. Here's a link to the post http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...t=28749&page=2. and the revevent part

Originally Posted by "[DOT

.l". ]


Man, this character book is indeed awesome. It explains alot of stuff not yet made clear in the anime or manga.

The following are my rough interpretations of some aspects mentioned in the book that I found to be especially intriguing:
[note: my japanese is pretty horrible, so don't take my word for it]


Quote:
一定の期間を尸魂界で過ごした魂魄は、現世へと転生する。



Spoiler for translation:
After a soul has spent a certain amount of time in Soul Society, it is reincarnated into the living world.



Quote:
貴族は瀞霊廷で生まれ、その生を尸魂界の内に全うする。



Spoiler for translation:
All members of SS's Noble Families are born in Soul Society.



Quote:
かつては志波家も含めて五大貴族だったが、現在志波家は没落・・・。



Spoiler for translation:
At one time the Shiba family was among the Five Nobilities of SS, but now it has degenerated...

So it looks like the nobles do not adopt and explains why Rikua being added to the clan is such a big deal and also lead to more evidence that new souls are born in SS.

[hdx514]

actually, the databook was already mentioned on the first page. i'm sure you will either be ignored or be told again that "born" has multiple interpretations and there is still NO evidence of birth in S.S.

i've got to say though, i can't for the life of me figure out why instead of something simple like "noble families are formed the same way", they chose to phrase it in such a manner in an official databook, if the nobles were indeed all adopted like the rest. in fact i don't know why they even bothered to mention it.

[kagato3]

It had been a while since i read the start of the thread but I think the whole "born" agument only works if the translation can mean something other then a real birth. Now I have no translation skills so I don't know if it does or not, is there anyone out there that can verify if the way born is used can only mean "haveing been given birth to"?

Also there is the whole context of the statement if it means to be brought into ss like the others then why point it out? Also why make note of the Nobles of SS being born in SS, where else would they be born? So this is either the most redundent thing I have read in months or it means that nobles are new souls that are in some way born in SS.

[kagato3]

thank you, so it again goes back to being as clear as mud.

[NoSanninWa]

Indeed. Being delivered or produced into Soul Society could very well mean appearing fully grown after death in the real world.

[Eclipze]

Question:

Now, according to The Small One, there is a limited and supposedly "fixed" number of souls in the Bleach universe. But what happens when a birth is taking place in the real world? Does a random soul from SS suddenly gets called to be "reborned"? This doesn't make sense as there has been no mentioned such a tradition, and for a related question, does it mean that people who die in SS are definitely reborned into the real world? What happens when the soul dies in the event of having no recent births/pregnancies in the real world?

Unless there is a totally logical explanation for this, I think that souls are created by births in the real world, but not all since Ichigo is a possible rebirth of Kaien (hence allowing the possibility of rebirth from SS to RW), although it is completely possible for KT to use the same/similar character design just for the heck of it. In otherwords, I disagree to there having a fixed number of souls in Bleach.

Oh, and I really don't get this: supposedly, as NSW(?) said, that only some souls can age (Those who have large reitsu or those who get hungry in SS), but i the aging constant? We are shown that Rukia, Renji and Yachiru have all "aged" in their physical appearence, yet Yachiru has only aged physically from a toddler to a young kid, while Renji/Rukia have aged from kids to adults.

I suppose, for the above, I'd have to ask the same question:

Originally Posted by chzon

So what you're saying is...they can control the rate at which they age?

Also, if I remember correctly, while Reni and Rukia were growing up in SS before they entered the shinigami acedemy, they were always hanging around a group of kids who eventually died, leaving only Rukia w/ Renji. But why is that? It is mentioned that souls in SS don't get hungry (usually), so I really don't see why they died, unless they got into a fight with other souls and got killed? (Its been awhile since I've watched that episode)

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

Question:

Now, according to The Small One, there is a limited and supposedly "fixed" number of souls in the Bleach universe. But what happens when a birth is taking place in the real world? Does a random soul from SS suddenly gets called to be "reborned"? This doesn't make sense as there has been no mentioned such a tradition, and for a related question, does it mean that people who die in SS are definitely reborned into the real world? What happens when the soul dies in the event of having no recent births/pregnancies in the real world?

It has been stated that souls are constantly being recycled between SS and the living world. Therefore it is probable that whenever someone is born in the living world, it is someone who was recently in SS. Perhaps birth in the living world will kill someone from SS. That hasn't been stated, but we don't know very much about the subject at all, except that souls flow in both directions. This is one of the very few things that we have been clearly informed of.

Oh, and I really don't get this: supposedly, as NSW(?) said, that only some souls can age (Those who have large reitsu or those who get hungry in SS), but i the aging constant? We are shown that Rukia, Renji and Yachiru have all "aged" in their physical appearence, yet Yachiru has only aged physically from a toddler to a young kid, while Renji/Rukia have aged from kids to adults.

Well, my personal belief is that souls who have reiatsu will age to match their emotional development. They come to match on the outside, the age they have on the inside. So, if someone is immature, they will stay young like Yachiru and Hitsugaya. Mature people will have mature bodies. And if someone turns into an old grump, then they'll get really old like Yamamoto Genryuusai. Of course, this is just my personal theory which has very little evidence to support it and no evidence to oppose it.

Also, if I remember correctly, while Reni and Rukia were growing up in SS before they entered the shinigami acedemy, they were always hanging around a group of kids who eventually died, leaving only Rukia w/ Renji. But why is that? It is mentioned that souls in SS don't get hungry (usually), so I really don't see why they died, unless they got into a fight with other souls and got killed? (Its been awhile since I've watched that episode)

We were never told how they died, but we know that they didn't starve since they have no reiatsu. That means that either they got killed by violence or some means we are unaware of, like birth into the living world.

[Zoe]

Originally Posted by The Small One

This translation is incorrect. It means:
The members of noble families are "born" into Seireitei(!)

Not quite, you're missing the second half. I would translate it as "Nobles are born in Seireitei, and they carry out their life in Soul Society."

[kagato3]

Thanks for the full translation, but unless the way "umu" is used can only mean born as in childbirth we still are at the same spot. Presonaly I still belive it means that a new baby soul is created.

[Zoe]

Originally Posted by kagato3

Thanks for the full translation, but unless the way "umu" is used can only mean born as in childbirth we still are at the same spot. Presonaly I still belive it means that a new baby soul is created.

It can mean those other things, but it always carries the conotation of "birth."

[blueinkalchemist]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

It has been stated that souls are constantly being recycled between SS and the living world. Therefore it is probable that whenever someone is born in the living world, it is someone who was recently in SS. Perhaps birth in the living world will kill someone from SS. That hasn't been stated, but we don't know very much about the subject at all, except that souls flow in both directions. This is one of the very few things that we have been clearly informed of.

Indeed. This is the biggest reason behind the shinigami/Quincy war. When a shinigami purifies a soul (either using Soul Burial on a Plus or defeating a Hollow), their soul is sent to Soul Society; and when that soul leaves SS due to extreme old age or death, that soul is sent back to the living world. The Quincy, on the other hand, annihilate the souls of what they defeat. This put the balance between SS and our world in peril and the shinigami were compelled to act.

Seems off-topic, I know, but it supports what's being said.

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

Well, my personal belief is that souls who have reiatsu will age to match their emotional development. They come to match on the outside, the age they have on the inside. So, if someone is immature, they will stay young like Yachiru and Hitsugaya. Mature people will have mature bodies. And if someone turns into an old grump, then they'll get really old like Yamamoto Genryuusai. Of course, this is just my personal theory which has very little evidence to support it and no evidence to oppose it.

Considering how he acts, it's likely that Hitsugaya will someday have a more mature stature, but his reiatsu is so potent and his skills so adept that he is at captain's level even in his somewhat adolescent form. I believe it's similar with Yachiru, though she may simply desire to remain a child. I happen to think her "cuteness" is mostly an act to conceal her power; she's having more fun being a kid.

Spoiler:

Like Ikkaku not revealing his Bankai for fear he'll be forced to become a Captain...

This would indicate that shinigami, or souls with powerful reiatsu, have some control over the rate at which they age, at least in Soul Society.

[Asianknight82]

Something has been seriously bugging me about the Bleach series. When a person dies, they go to the spirit world where Rukia is from. And it seems that you basically "exist" forever, until someone or something kills you. The big question is... what the hell happens when a "spirit" or Shinigami dies? Do they just simply stop existing or are they reborned into the human world?

[Ziv]

Originally Posted by Asianknight82

Something has been seriously bugging me about the Bleach series. When a person dies, they go to the spirit world where Rukia is from. And it seems that you basically "exist" forever, until someone or something kills you. The big question is... what the hell happens when a "spirit" or Shinigami dies? Do they just simply stop existing or are they reborned into the human world?

They're reborn into the real world. They explain it when they explain why Soul Society hates Quincys.

[kagato3]

Well spirits can die of "old age" and those are reborn in the human world. It is unclear exactly what happens to souls that are killed by other means such as being eaten by hollows or kill by a soul slayer.