Steve Jobs, 1955-2011

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I think the main criticism of Apple among techies is how their product is inherently a "black box", a closed system. As a user you have no influence over your hardware, and little over the software. The PC, by contrast, is an open platform. If you want you can take your PC apart, change the parts, put in a new OS, whatever. It requires little knowledge to do so, and what knowledge you need is all out there and easily accessible.

I think it rankles a lot of us how apple claimed to be going "beyond" the PC, that the PC would die. Personally, while the exact standards defining how PCs are built is bound to change, I don't think the future is closed systems like the Apple, I think the true future isn't in "boxed" electronics like Apple products, or even even consoles like the PS3, the future is in the PC. In the future, every computer will be a PC.

The other element is how Apple has this whole "anti-establishment" credibility among hipsters, that Apple isn't part of the corporate machine like Microsoft is. While Microsoft is a frequent target for it's many anti-competitive practices, and lack of OS transperency, Apple makes Microsoft look saintly. At least Microsoft doesn't control what hardware you use. Likewise Microsoft exerts significantly less control over what software you can use compared to Apple products like the IPad or IPhone.

If I'm going to pick the Software corporation I'm going to swear loyalty to, I'll go with Google first. At least Google has consistently shown a commitment to open standards, open software and independent hardware platforms, even if I prefered that they did a bit less data mining.

The Apple future of computing is not one I desire, I don't want my computing experience to be dictated by a single company. I like having the graphics cards of ATI, with the processors of Intel, with an Iomega hard drive, a Samsung display and a Linux OS (or Microsoft etc.). Not whatever Apple happens to choose.

Adding to this, I'll give respect to the man for making old technology (touch screen) and catering to the masses who otherwise find 'computers scary' a user friendly and seemingly 'fun' product to make part of their lives with leet advertising (who thought that shillouettes would be so cool as to make you wanna get an mp3 player?)

I don't consider it as much as 'changing the world', a mac or a iphone is still an addition to a regular PC or mobile for the masses in this world, as to just changing and bringing about the technology of smartphones, but ipod's (initially and really what helped Apple's fame) as an mp3 player in itself really was nothing special at all, especially on a usability front.

The status symbol and cosumerism of ipods what was personally led to me shunning Apple big time. People mindlessly buying because of the 'brand' rather than stopping to see what they need to suit their lifestyle or if it's worth investing in.
I've no love for iMacs but I do acknowledge that they're a greater tool for graphic designers or image manipulators than a PC, so use what's neeed and what works well.

iphone and iPad made touch screen cool and for that, I congratulate this genius for bringing about something old and used mainly in public spaces such as museums or train stations to being in the palm of everyone's hands.
Personally I'd take my keypad (which I can feel without looking if I need to) over tapping my fingers on a screen all day hoping that sensors work well to not hinder navigation.

And so on. I guess I see technology deeper than just grabbing the next thing cause it's cool and wanna know how/what makes it tick underneath and truly how it can contribute to making daily tasks easier.
If nothing else, I'd say Adobe has played much more of an influence in my life than Apple ever has or ever will.

Where would be we without Photoshop, (it's a freaking verb now, lol) Flash (after they bought Macromedia out), Dreamweaver, Adobe Acrobat Reader etc especially in this Internet age without these software.
Yet, I doubt many of you could figure out the pioneers of Adobe or Macromedia without checking Wiki first, but I daresay their presence/influence in the world, business or otherwise is far greater than Apple's, even if it is just software.

Jobs did well for following his passions/heart, sticking it out to save his business and going against ridicule and being charismatic and charming and manipulating the average consumer to part money for technology they'd never otherwise consider via looks, fun and 'easiness' for mp3s and mobiles, but aside from that, this doesn't faze me at all.

However in death, he has probably become immortal now, so his faithful flock of sheep will keep his brand alive, I dare hazard

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by solomon

Other than that I must ask, in a nutshell (plz no thesis) why all the apple hate?

Mac users have a reputation for being elitists and the portrayal of PC users in Apple ads has never helped that case.

Also, as DonQuigleone pointed out, a lot of geeks dislike the "one hardware providor, one app store" model that Apple uses... they prefer to be able to choose their own hardware and where to get their software.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I think the main criticism of Apple among techies is how their product is inherently a "black box", a closed system. As a user you have no influence over your hardware, and little over the software. The PC, by contrast, is an open platform. If you want you can take your PC apart, change the parts, put in a new OS, whatever. It requires little knowledge to do so, and what knowledge you need is all out there and easily accessible.

I think it rankles a lot of us how apple claimed to be going "beyond" the PC, that the PC would die. Personally, while the exact standards defining how PCs are built is bound to change, I don't think the future is closed systems like the Apple, I think the true future isn't in "boxed" electronics like Apple products, or even even consoles like the PS3, the future is in the PC. In the future, every computer will be a PC.

I don't know, the "boxed electronic" model holds a lot of appeal to non-geeks, who are the majority of the market. In addition, most of Apple's competition in the smartphone and tablet market hasn't had some of the major advantages Windows had in competiting with Mac OS. First, many people were familiar with Windows from using it at work - granted, Blackberry had a huge lead over Apple in enterprise smartphone sales, but it hasn't helped them much. And second, other smartphone and tablet manufacturers haven't really done a very good job differentiating themselves from Apple on the basis of cost, particularly in tablets.
(smartphones are another matter but US carriers tend to eat the cost up front in order to get you to sign ridiculously expensive contracts so most people don't notice. Maybe its different in Europe though.)

That, and Metro Apps on Windows 8 are going to be a closed app store model too, so the PC is kind of becoming a boxed electronic in a way.

Edit:
@Mystique:
To be fair, if you look at the history of Adobe, you'll find that their big break came when Apple licensed their Postscript system in 1985, and that the initial release of Photoshop in 1990 was a Mac exlusive.

[Vexx]

On the scientific front.. for a long time Matlab was pretty much only available on the Mac or on large server environments - it being a central number cruncher for many scientists and the Mac was excellent at producing scientific reports, graphs, etc. It was the cleanest route for experiment->data->processing/visualizing->publishedpaper for most of the 1980s and much of the 90s.

Personally, every time I've looked at Apple products I've gone in another direction. I just like being able to take the panels off and twist the knobs to my liking. As for the consumer gadgets... I could never justify $199 for an MP3 player when I could spend $80 for a Sandisk... something I won't care so much if I drop it. Something small and breakable should be priced for easy replacement.

Now... I might end up with an iPad 2... because I see applications in my personal life for it. But because there was an iPad, its likely I'll have other choices from Apple's reactionary competitors.

There will always be two audiences (I hope) ... the "it just works" crowd and the "I wanna custom and tinker" crowd.

[Jeffry2009]

[monster]

Originally Posted by Vexx

There will always be two audiences (I hope) ... the "it just works" crowd and the "I wanna custom and tinker" crowd.

One problem with the second type of crowd is that it may encourage products that may not have a good OOBE just because you can tinker with them.

If nothing else, Steve Jobs/Apple has probably helped raise the bar at what an OOBE should be.

Personally, I'm more of a "it just works but I can still tinker with it if I want to (at least, to a certain extent)" type of person. Hopefully, there's a crowd like me out there.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by monster

Personally, I'm more of a "it just works but I can still tinker with it if I want to (at least, to a certain extent)" type of person. Hopefully, there's a crowd like me out there.

I think the Android distributions and the newer Ubuntu linux distros are good indications there's a fair number in that crowd.

[SaintessHeart]

I don't think there is anything more to tinker with since ACTA has been signed. Fucking monopolists.

Seems like the market is going nowhere. I bet that the bulls are Mac users and bears are PC users.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Vexx

the newer Ubuntu linux distros are good indications there's a fair number in that crowd.

To be honest Ubuntu is just getting more thick headed with each release. The old usability problems aren't getting fixed, and new usability problems just get put in; oh and the problems that have just been a thorn in Linux's usability for years, the one's that Ubuntu was suppose to fix, well looks like they forgot about them (or it was just hot air to begin with). Also, it doesn't "just work" unless all you're counting is the installation. So no, you don't have the option to tinker with it, you have to tinker with it, or else all you can do is look at it (I don't think it's even possible to use it with out opening the console at some point). For a distro that supposedly "user friendly" sure doesn't live up to even half the hype and promise.

The latest releases (unity/gnome3 "improvements") are literally less usable then some of the "greek" distros out there. It's like they're tacking every wrong innovation out there and botching it in, so their marketing department can have a picnic with it.

In a sense that's one of the things Apple got right! You can't just be so independent of everything that you can't get out of the primeval ooze you came from. And it's okey to discard some things, because you'll replace them with better parts while moving forward. But linux doesn't get that, and proves the point how evolution can stagger indefinitely time and time again.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Vexx

As for the consumer gadgets... I could never justify $199 for an MP3 player when I could spend $80 for a Sandisk... something I won't care so much if I drop it. Something small and breakable should be priced for easy replacement.

*Hides my $400 64GB ipod touch 4th gen I use everyday to do pretty much everything on*

But I can justify my extravagant spending on this since this is the most used electronic device in my everyday life.

[DonQuigleone]

To be fair, $400 on an iPod isn't so extravagant when you consider that people routinely spend $50-$100 on a night out every week.

[SaintessHeart]

It is more of a brand issue. According to Philip Hesketh's How To Persuade and Influence People, we are subconsciously tuned to the brand we associate with most. It is the sense of security with the product that we associate with, not its functions or whatnot.

Time to go short until Tuesday/Wednesday.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Tempester

I can't say I feel much by hearing this news. Is Jobs a person I know personally? No. Is he someone I admire or know a lot about? Nope. Moving on. It's not like his death isn't a bad or sad thing, it's just that I'm incredibly detached from it. And that's probably exactly how I feel about the passing of most famous people.

On one hand, I slightly dislike the Apple company. But anyone who says 'good riddance' to this news (and I know that there are some out there) should seriously reconsider their words.

Thanks for dissing the dead at his own funeral, Temp.

[sa547]

As much as some people dislike him and his views, Jobs and Apple always did spur their competitors to improve themselves, to the extent of making their products as competitive as Apple's.

To me, Apple is to computers and gadgets what Porsche is to automobiles: it's the style that justifies the price, and everything under the hood has been done with, so that it's all the matter of starting up the motor.

@Tempster: where you -- or us, or our current society -- will be, had Jobs didn't exist to rouse up the computer market to what it is now today?

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by Tempester

I can't say I feel much by hearing this news. Is Jobs a person I know personally? No. Is he someone I admire or know a lot about? Nope. Moving on. It's not like his death isn't a bad or sad thing, it's just that I'm incredibly detached from it. And that's probably exactly how I feel about the passing of most famous people.

On one hand, I slightly dislike the Apple company. But anyone who says 'good riddance' to this news (and I know that there are some out there) should seriously reconsider their words.

If you don't care, why do you bother to post?

[-Antares-]

If you're just mirroring the opinions of everyone else who's already posted, why do you bother to post? Because if nobody posted when there's no point to almost nobody would post anyway. There's nothing wrong with voicing your opinion, regardless of what it is. That was a general "you" by the way... I really have no idea if you've posted anything else in this thread, let alone something that mirrors everyone else's opinions.

I also don't particularly care about this news. It is cool that Steve Jobs did important things but it's not like everything's just going to stop now that he's dead.

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by AHH

If you're just mirroring the opinions of everyone else who's already posted, why do you bother to post? Because if nobody posted when there's no point to almost nobody would post anyway. There's nothing wrong with voicing your opinion, regardless of what it is. That was a general "you" by the way... I really have no idea if you've posted anything else in this thread, let alone something that mirrors everyone else's opinions.

I also don't particularly care about this news. It is cool that Steve Jobs did important things but it's not like everything's just going to stop now that he's dead.

First, look at who started the thread.

Second, it's one thing to say I hate the guy, or I love the guy, or I'm sad, or I'm mad, or I'm happy he's dead. It's another to say I don't care. Don't care means the news doesn't affect you, then why are you in a thread discussing the guy's passing? If you don't care about his death, why bother entering a thread dedicated to the person's death?

It's like saying, I don't care for that begger over there sitting near the subway station, but I'm going to make sure he knows by going over there and telling him in the face I don't care about him.

I'm not offended in any way, but it's that rationale that makes no sense.

[monster]

Well, from what I've seen over the years, there are people who care about expressing their reaction to certain events even if that reaction turns out to be one of indifference. In the end, for some, it's about sharing that reaction rather than what that reaction is. I personally don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but I guess it can be annoying to some people depending on the situation.

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by Tempester

That wasn't very nice at all. Where did I express any sign of contempt for the man? He was a business man, and while I'm not fond of his company's products, I can't blame him or hate him for following a successful, smart business model. I have no reason to hate him. There are a lot of despicable people out there who are much more worth hating on, including some politicians I wouldn't want to name in this thread.



I care enough to voice my opinion about it. People who love Steve Jobs have talked about it, people who hate him have talked about it, so why am I not entitled to express how I feel?



Because it's my opinion. If someone comments "Oh, I love X show so much!" and another person says nearly the same thing a few pages later, is the second post necessarily useless? No, it tells you something about that person's opinion.

Honestly, I'm disappointed in you, ASuki. I thought you were more civil than this.

Aside from Komari, I don't believe I was hostile towards you or AHH. There's nothing uncivil about me disagreeing with your expression. I didn't get why someone who doesn't care bothered to post, and your reply told me you care enough to post, fair enough. (That also raised the question do you actually care or not, but I don't give a crap enough to press the question.)

Remember, civil doesn't necessary mean everyone need to tiptoe around everyone else' opinion, I'm sick of everyone using "It's my opinion" as a defense against any criticism. That's not being civil, just ignorant.

I'm going to stop there though, this is getting too far away from the thread.

[aohige]

Breaking News at Ten! Saying "lol I don't care" on a thread about someone who died could be taken offensively.

You're 20 years old. You should know how your reactions are going to be taken by others.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by aohige

Breaking News at Ten! Saying "lol I don't care" on a thread about someone who died could be taken offensively.

You're 20 years old. You should know how your reactions are going to be taken by others.

Basically.