Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

She didn't need to be sacrificed at all. Unlike Clovis who was massacring elevens out of his own free will Euphie did so because of Lelouch himself. Killing her was just a giant douche move on his part.

Give her to Cornelia and then... what?
As far as Lelouch knew, his Geass could not be reversed. Euphie would have continued trying to kill people, and in moments of calrity like the one before her death - if those would have existed under normal circumstances at all -, she would have known something was wrong with her.
Euphie's life was already ruined, and giving her to his enemies would have made them aware of the existence of Geass. Lelouch knew it was purely his fault, which is why he killed her with his own hands, crying while doing so.

There were definitely other options there. He could capture her and then give her to Cornelia so she'd be safe, and he could also take his fricking mask off while he was at it because getting Euphie to murder elevens should have been a sign he'd gone too far.

It's not like he did it on purpose.
And anway, what should he take his mask off for? Don't get that part, except if it's the age-old "he should have taken responsibility" argument again. An argument that ignores that Lelouch's way of honouring the deaths he causes is giving them meaning. He spills "yet more blood so that the blood already spilled was not in vain".


Oh, and I believe Clovis didn't really "need" anything. He'd been an ass, yes, but really, if Lelouch had known him better and not been so determined to kill him, I think he would probably have used him rather than his death, as Clovis might very well have been ready to help him.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

So perhaps Clovis needed to die, but what about Euphie? What's the excuse there?

She didn't need to be sacrificed at all. Unlike Clovis who was massacring elevens out of his own free will Euphie did so because of Lelouch himself. Killing her was just a giant douche move on his part.
There were definitely other options there. He could capture her and then give her to Cornelia so she'd be safe, and he could also take his fricking mask off while he was at it because getting Euphie to murder elevens should have been a sign he'd gone too far.

As Nogi already explained, none of the above was plausible for Lelouch, nor was it intentional. The accidental Geass totally screwed her. It was a mercy kill.

[Revolutionist]

If Euphemia is sent back to the homeland she won't be killing people anymore, unless there were large numbers of Japanese in Britannian homeland...>_>

If he did really love her then he would've found a way to save her. Why did she have to be punished for HIS mistake, which came from a sick joke to begin with?

I suppose you can only justify that with the same twisted logic behind shedding more blood to give meaning....

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

If Euphemia is sent back to the homeland she won't be killing people anymore, unless there were large numbers of Japanese in Britannian homeland...>_>

From the looks of it, the Geass would compel her to seek out and kill Japanese people until she was convinced that every single one of them had been wiped off the face of the earth. As such the best they could hope for would be to lock her away in a cell for the rest of her life while she pleasantly insists that she has to go out so she can kill the Japanese. As well, remember that she shot Darlton for seeming to obstruct her, so she would also harm anyone who tried to stop her from killing Japanese, no matter their race.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

If he did really love her then he would've found a way to save her.

And let her kill more innocent people, only for her to wake up with their blood on her hands?

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Why did she have to be punished for HIS mistake, which came from a sick joke to begin with?

Life isn't fair?

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Darlton also had japanese ancestry.

...Huh? Where was this stated?

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

If Euphemia is sent back to the homeland she won't be killing people anymore, unless there were large numbers of Japanese in Britannian homeland...>_>

If he did really love her then he would've found a way to save her. Why did she have to be punished for HIS mistake, which came from a sick joke to begin with?

I suppose you can only justify that with the same twisted logic behind shedding more blood to give meaning....

* facepalm *

And what would there to be stopping her from requesting to be brought back to Japan, given that she was royalty?

Lelouch was stuck with a Morton's Fork.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

If Euphemia is sent back to the homeland she won't be killing people anymore, unless there were large numbers of Japanese in Britannian homeland...>_>

If he did really love her then he would've found a way to save her. Why did she have to be punished for HIS mistake, which came from a sick joke to begin with?

I suppose you can only justify that with the same twisted logic behind shedding more blood to give meaning....

The command was simply, "Kill all the Japanese." Nothing about it is conditional; she must kill Japanese until there are simply no more to kill. Taking her back to Britannia and keeping her there would require locking her up. Curing her would be downright impossible at the time (ignore what Suzaku says to the Emperor, he was just trying to justify his actions). Finally, the Britannians were all too willing to serve in the meantime. She had to die. It was the only way to stop her.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

The command was simply, "Kill all the Japanese." Nothing about it is conditional; she must kill Japanese until there are simply no more to kill. Taking her back to Britannia and keeping her there would require locking her up. Curing her would be downright impossible at the time (ignore what Suzaku says to the Emperor, he was just trying to justify his actions). Finally, the Britannians were all too willing to serve in the meantime. She had to die. It was the only way to stop her.

No she didn't have to die, she could've been restrained and sent to Britannia, then Charles could erase her memories to forget that there is even a Japanese race, which would cancel out Lelouch's geass to kill the Japanese.

Not to mention that Lelouch could've used her against Cornelia as a hostage..

[Rising Dragon]

"Could have" is the key phrase there. The thing is, why would Charles do that? The man simply does not care about the mundane things in life anymore, and the Ragnarok Junction he was so bent on meant that it didn't matter if Euphy was dead or alive.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

No she didn't have to die, she could've been restrained and sent to Britannia, then Charles could erase her memories to forget that there is even a Japanese race, which would cancel out Lelouch's geass to kill the Japanese.

Which would last until she reads about these "Japanese" in a book or hears something on the news and feels strangely compelled to find and kill all of them. And anyone that gets in her way. Actually, we aren't even sure his Geass could repress the order to kill the japanese, or how Euphemia would respond.

In any case, why would Charles erase her memory? His fixing her would raise questions as to how he coud do so, as well as the fact that he seemed pretty amused by the whole thing.

[Rising Dragon]

Charles' Geass could have easily repress Lelouch's set Geass command. We saw it in action with Shirley. What I've come to understand concerning the Geass placed on Shirley by the Emperor is that it overwrote EVERYTHING involving the Black Knights and Lelouch's identity as Zero. As such, it would repress Lelouch's own Geass command to forget about him. So in a roundabout way, her old memories of him were back. Just not the memories of her learning about his identity as Zero and his involvement with her as Zero. That's why she was back to calling him Lulu in R2, and why she was so familiar with him again.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Charles' Geass could have easily repress Lelouch's set Geass command. We saw it in action with Shirley. What I've come to understand concerning the Geass placed on Shirley by the Emperor is that it overwrote EVERYTHING involving the Black Knights and Lelouch's identity as Zero. As such, it would repress Lelouch's own Geass command to forget about him. So in a roundabout way, her old memories of him were back. Just not the memories of her learning about his identity as Zero and his involvement with her as Zero. That's why she was back to calling him Lulu in R2, and why she was so familiar with him again.

Hmm, possible, but I'm not completely sold on the idea, given that nothing was explicitly stated about this. It had been a full year after all, so there was time for her to get to know him again, and we are never told when she thinks she first met Lelouch in R2.

As well, Lelouch removed her memories of him, but we aren't told if Charles' Geass broke Lelouch's or just went along with it by making Shirley only vaguely remember Lelouch before the Mao incident.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

No she didn't have to die, she could've been restrained and sent to Britannia, then Charles could erase her memories to forget that there is even a Japanese race, which would cancel out Lelouch's geass to kill the Japanese.

Not to mention that Lelouch could've used her against Cornelia as a hostage..

Fundamental flaw in this argument: Charles has at least two reasons NOT to: 1) because it worked in favor of ultimately screwing up Lelouch, and 2) he was too absorbed with the Ragnarok Connection to care about the state of the world or anyone living in it, the latter of which Schneizel himself lampshades. Not to mention that nobody outside his very immediate circle, namely, V. V., Marianne, and Bismarck, even knew about Charles' Geass at that time.

You're giving Charles too much credit here.

[morbosfist]

Charles' Geass manipulation did not technically override Lelouch's. Lelouch's command, near as can be figured, was a one-time, past-tense command. I imagine the phrasing would have gone "Forget all your memories of me," or something to that extent. Shirley's memories from that point back would have been erased. The Emperor then would have modified her existing memories to remove all traces of Nunnally. That she calls him Lulu could simply be a indoctrination process, since her friends kept telling her that she called him such and the name would stick. She doesn't necessarily have her old memories back, as she herself indicates that she fell in love twice under different circumstances.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

No she didn't have to die, she could've been restrained and sent to Britannia, then Charles could erase her memories to forget that there is even a Japanese race, which would cancel out Lelouch's geass to kill the Japanese.

Not to mention that Lelouch could've used her against Cornelia as a hostage..

Assuming for a moment that he would make the effort, there's no evidence he can erase hard-coded commands like that. As pointed out, one mention of "Japanese" (or even "Eleven" by virtue of association) would set her off.

Furthermore, even restraining her under the circumstances would be difficult. She'd be out of control, and Suzaku would be bearing down on them soon anyway. You'd just have a living, psycho Euphie who'd order Suzaku shot on the spot (and whoever was present would do so) and keep killing, or the same in Lelouch's company trying to attack everyone in sight. Arguably it'd just drive Cornelia bonkers and you'd get the same result. Death was the best thing at the time.

[Nogitsune]

Wait... how the hell was Lelouch supposed to know Charles had a Geass, and one that could change someone's memories at that?
You might as well argue Jeremiah could have cancelled the command later on, which at least would have worked for sure.

[Revolutionist]

Euphy's death had little effect in the plot, and things would progress much like they did in the show had she not died. Suzaku would still learn about Geass from V.V, and he'd confront Lelouch in Kamine island. Once he brings Lelouch to Charles and learns of his geass he could also ask him to help Euphy.

Now, let's not kid ourselves that we know anything about geass and how it actually works, or rather what other user's limitations are. The fact of the matter is that geass is just a gimmick and the writers used it liberally with little consideration for coherence.

Charles could simply replace her memory of Lelouch ordering her to kill all the Japanese with a fake memory of him telling her to call her numbers for example...
Tell me how that could not work?

[Revolutionist]

Whether she lived or die didn't really affect the plot of R1 that much, besides Cornelia locking herself in Euphy's room and Suzaku swithing on kill-mode. It however was essential in R2, from Nunnaly trying to carry out her vision to Suzaku rejecting Ragnarok to Lelouch's ZR.

[darkdarkdark]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Whether she lived or die didn't really affect the plot of R1 that much, besides Cornelia locking herself in Euphy's room and Suzaku swithing on kill-mode. It however was essential in R2, from Nunnaly trying to carry out her vision to Suzaku rejecting Ragnarok to Lelouch's ZR.

I agree, her death didn't really change much in R1.
However, I would think that if she didn't die, Charles would have been able to initiate his Ragnarok plan, R2 would never have taken place.

[Revolutionist]

I would've liked to see Ragnarok succeed to see what it was really about. The explanation given was kinda vague.

[yvj]

Ragnarok was an unoriginal plot device