Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[charles883]

Well, NUNS casually bring in Illegal bomb into Windermere just to conquer the planet by bombing capital and keep denying the truth and putting the blame on Windermere. Novel already stated that. Also that commander NUNS casually nuke Ragna while evacuating civilian and just to gather data and show no remorse doing that. And once again he illegally bring dimensional weapon to blow up entire Ragna while people still there which essentially committing genocide and plan to cover it up AGAIN.

Not that I support Windermere ,just that I also don't support NUNS who become very corrupt and let their arrogance go into their head and don't deserved to support them

[HirouKeimou]

I'm not going to argue about real life nations or events because I continuously believe Delta is mirroring World War II regardless...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Anything negative that NUNs did to Ragna, in this anime, was ultimately brought about by Windermere's racial supremacist warmongering. If Windermere never declared war, NUNs would not have dropped any bombs on Ragna. Windermere provided the pretext for some shady guys within NUNs to do what they wanted to do, but without that pretext, Ranga likely remains unharmed.

Your argument is missing its logic here.
Because NUNS goes back on their original agreement with Chaos in episode 13. They were only supposed to detonate the bomb if Walküre and Chaos could ultimately not win negotiate with Windermere.

They literally gave Walküre and Chaos a time limit to proceed upon like it's that easy to negotiate period (seriously, a time limit!?) and bombed Ragna earlier than said time limit. And for what!? The bomb didn't eliminate Windermere or even half of its fleet; all it caused is a huge tidal wave which possibly knocked around civilians who didn't evacuate because said time limit is not up or killed countless soldiers who were caught in the blast and were not forewarned (you know, their own men!).

Their gain from this is more information on the ruins which is given no context whatsoever and later on, said NUNS guy manages to ultimately gain what he deserves (albeit I wish it'd been Chaos calling for their court martial) in the form of Windermere blowing them up (payback for their own men they eliminated in episode 13?).

And NUNS did oppress Windermere. They did want independence, and even had NUNS soldiers on their side (it's brought up in multiple episodes, too). The issue is, Windermere did nothing to NUNS prior to our current timeline. The one who did something is NUNS, who dropped a bomb on their planet and ultimately is the reason their Independence War is a success.

Oh yes, and on your discussion of the bombing of Ragna, I'll remind you how it's brought up a number of times in episode 12 how bombing the ruins could affect the ecosystem of Ragna, and which that could affect its citizens, btw. NUNS did not care.
So if it had, we'd be talking about possibilities of polluted air or water, or a drastic shift in climate, and all of this could ultimately mean Ragna could potentially become unlivable for its inhabitants. So all of its inhabitants are now homeless, and how is NUNS going to fix it? They'd never admit their mistakes, all they do is cover it up, so of course Ragna inhabitants will be moved elsewhere and forced to keep it all hush hush because that's how NUNS goes. Can't ruin their beautiful reputation, now can they?

Say what you will about Windermere but I believe Heinz and Gramia say it all in how they acknowledge their mistakes (regardless of pressing on); not once does Windermere hide its true colors. Meanwhile, NUNS does, hiding behind a pretense that it exists for peace in the universe; however, it's doing very little to ensure all of its factions are on point or dish out punishment when they're not, and the victims of those corrupt factions gain nothing for it either.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What total BS. Seriously. The way some of you people try to shift legitimate criticism of Windermere, to making ridiculously over-the-top criticisms of NUNs, is truly disgusting.

Note that I did not mention Windermere at all. I already stated I was done defending Windermere, and I was addressing the people who supported NUNS. As in, those who legitimately believed they were doing the right thing, not that Windermere was simply worse.
The war was resolved without NUNS' help, and NUNS did nothing to extinguish the flames, and if anything, fanned them. I don't care if they had the right intentions, the end results are what matter, and either they're bad people with bad intentions, or their idiots with good intentions, and neither category should be in possession of weapons or power.
Also, reminder, Keith killed Roid, not NUNS, and not Chaos.
One more thing, I'm pretty sure the locals would rather sacrifice a few traditions than lose their homes and their lives. Had Chaos not intervened, that's what would have happened.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by charles883

SleepingTerror,you are right as NUNS become more on British Imperalist as NUNS keep treating local badly thinking they are superior race and does not care and keep trampling local race like Ragna and Windermere. Unless magnuskn , you are supporter of Western Imperialist era and support their racist policy to local

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

@charles883
Yeah NUNS has just about zero care for the locals.

Actually both of this is false. Ragna has zero problems with NUNS on it's own, the only problems they had with NUNS happened because of Windermere. In fact we've never seen any planet that was has a problem with NUNS beyond Windermere. But then again Windermere is the only planet that spouts out racist rhetoric about their superiority. That's not to say that Windermere doesn't have problems with NUNS, it's just that their problem really boils down to one thing, NUNS nuking Windermere. Their other problems were rendered moot ironically by their own behavior. Problems with their culture changing isn't a bad thing because they've shown that their culture is partially came from their belief in racial supremacy now it doesn't seem so bad to everyone else since all it does is make less racist, hell they've even justified NUNS taking over their ruins because they've proved themselves to be megalomaniacs so maybe it's a good thing that NUNS tried to keep the ruins out of reach from them.

Windermere became a danger to themselves and to the galaxy they reside in. And I wouldn't be surprised if other planets don't stand up for them, or expect some form of retribution for their actions.

Rather than a British colony they're more like Germany during WWII, right down to actions actually being partially motivated by revenge due to being wrong in past and racial supremacy.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So I guess you missed all the talk the Windbags had among each other how they are the superior race, the chosen ones, chosen to lead the other races? And show me a single Windbag outside of Freyja who is welcoming of other people visiting their planet (without bringing huge weapon deliveries or doing a bad bondage job on them).

Quassim and Hermann treated Hayate and Mirage with a respect that you can not say they are xenophobe.

I did not forgot the speech, but all speeches were against NUN and not other races. It was against an organization all the time until Roid wanted to link all to one network.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

This argument makes literally no sense at all. Vallen has consistently argued against the Windermerans, who are the ones who started a war of aggression based on racism, eugenics and vengeance. You, together with person-who-is-on-my-ignore-list-now, have been one of the main persons who have consistently argued for Windermeres position, making you the one who is clearly pro-war of agression. You can say all day long that you personally don't agree with Windermere, but you still argue for their right to invade an entire sector of space and try to enslave the entire galaxy. Saying " I don't personally agree with the Nazis, but they were right in invading Poland and France" would make you a pariah on most forums. So I personally think that you might want to think a bit deeper if your arguments for Windermere are not equally abominable as that example statement would be.

The war did not start because of racism. It was started because NUN government/military told a lie over the years, doing unequal treaties and looking down at windermere as a folk of farmers. Sorry but I don'the really wonder why windermere did chose to go into war. there were no options left but war.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

In fact we've never seen any planet that was has a problem with NUNS beyond Windermere.

I don't know about planets but I vividly recall a NUNS-based Zentradi base on Galia 4 who held rebel Zentradi that disagreed and/or disliked them fully because they "sided with the humans."

It's not only Windermere; however, Windermere is the first entire species which actively dislikes humans (excuse me, Earthlings; since apparently it's needed to specify). But I do argue Zentradi do it first by disliking all of the human race in SDF-1 prior to NUNS' creation...

[charles883]

Then what about manga where one of the officer act completely not caring on Windermere at all as their training exercise destroy farm land when Windermere farmer complain their livelihood being destroy.

Also novel stated that NUNS plan to use Dimensional bomb on capital to destroy government and Protoculture artifact body of Windermere just to conquer for their planet rich in fold quatz to quench their greed. Hell even some of NUNS soldier and pilot like Hayate father join Windermere to free Windermere as they know NUNS are corrupt and racist

[SleepingTerror]

@wisteria233 Your argument just reinforces mine that NUNS does not care. Ragna did not pose the same threat as Windermere, which is why they were allowed to live peacefully. As soon as they became a threat, or something on their planet became a threat, NUNS did not hesitate to cast them aside.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by charles883

Also novel stated that NUNS plan to use Dimensional bomb on capital to destroy government and Protoculture artifact body of Windermere just to conquer for their planet rich in fold quatz to quench their greed. Hell even some of NUNS soldier and pilot like Hayate father join Windermere to free Windermere as they know NUNS are corrupt and racist

God I wish I could read the novel now...

The anime does cover this a little bit in episodes 17 and 25 because his father is said to have joined the Independence War on the side of Windermere. So it's logical from that point to begin connecting the dots of there were NUNS soldiers who downright disagreed with NUNS' goal in general. And Wright deliberately disobeyed orders in order to protect Windermere. So if we're connecting dots here, it means those soldiers who sided with Windermere, including Wright, logically from their point of view, agreed that NUNS is oppressing them and/or only cares for the riches and not its people (which Wright does care about).

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

@wisteria233 Your argument just reinforces mine that NUNS does not care. Ragna did not pose the same threat as Windermere, which is why they were allowed to live peacefully. As soon as they became a threat, or something on their planet became a threat, NUNS did not hesitate to cast them aside.

And by declaring war on the entire known world, Windermere proved NUNs right. The war they declared ended up retroactively made NUNs look good, because they did everything NUNs was afraid they would do.

Here is what non-Windermerians will see, from the outside; NUNs found a dangerous mind control weapon on Windermere, and tried to destroy it before Windermere use it to start a war against the rest of the galaxy. They failed, and then Windermere used the exact mind control machines to declare war on the rest of the galaxy. QED NUNs made the right decision.

That's what non-Windermerians would think, with 20/20 hind sight. And you can't fault them for thinking that.

So if we're connecting dots here, it means those soldiers who sided with Windermere, including Wright, logically from their point of view, agreed that NUNS is oppressing them and/or only cares for the riches and not its peopl

Wright wanted Windermere to be Independent. Windermere got that. But do you think Wright want Windermere to mind control 4 planets and declare an invasive war on the rest of the galaxy? Are you going to say that's what Wright wants too?

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

@wisteria233 Your argument just reinforces mine that NUNS does not care. Ragna did not pose the same threat as Windermere, which is why they were allowed to live peacefully. As soon as they became a threat, or something on their planet became a threat, NUNS did not hesitate to cast them aside.

Ragna had the ruins which could be used by Heinz to expand his Var influence remember? Hell that attack only happened because of Windermere, if Windermere had not attempted to take over Rana then that would not have happened.

Ragna wasn't living peacefully they were being attacked by Windermere, being attacked by an invader is not living peacefully.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I don't know about planets but I vividly recall a NUNS-based Zentradi base on Galia 4 who held rebel Zentradi that disagreed and/or disliked them fully because they "sided with the humans."

It's not only Windermere; however, Windermere is the first entire species which actively dislikes humans (excuse me, Earthlings; since apparently it's needed to specify). But I do argue Zentradi do it first by disliking all of the human race in SDF-1 prior to NUNS' creation...

You mean the Zentradi who the NUNs are both their allies and enemies, huh, I wonder why they're fighting?

[charles883]

Then is it right decision that US should nuke entire middle east and north Korea just because they are threat to US security even killing million?

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Ragna had the ruins which could be used by Heinz to expand his Var influence remember? Hell that attack only happened because of Windermere, if Windermere had not attempted to take over Rana then that would not have happened.
Ragna wasn't living peacefully they were being attacked by Windermere, being attacked by an invader is not living peacefully.

Under NUNS surveillance, they were living peacefully. And again, you bring up details irrelevant to my point: NUNS doesn't care, and any action they took had negative effects.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's what non-Windermerians would think, with 20/20 hind sight. And you can't fault them for thinking that.

Naturally, since they gobbled up that Windermere bombed their own planet.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by charles883

Then is it right decision that US should nuke entire middle east and north Korea just because they are threat to US security even killing million?

Well, if the Middle East and North Korea burned half of Europe down, then yes, America would be right.

We are not talking about what Windermere COULD do, we are talking about what Windermere actually DID. If NK and the Middle East did cause world wide devastation, then yes, it would have been a good idea to have stopped it earlier. The advantage of hindsight is that you can excuse unreasonable arguments, if they were proven right.

The Windermere leadership are violent immoral psychopaths. This much is shown in the show. They even added the criminal trial scene to remind you of this.

Naturally, since they gobbled up that Windermere bombed their own planet.

Are you denying that Windermere declared war in a time of peace, and used an ancient mind control weapon? Have you actually WATCHED the show?

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Wright wanted Windermere to be Independent. Windermere got that. But do you think Wright want Windermere to mind control 4 planets and declare an invasive war on the rest of the galaxy? Are you going to say that's what Wright wants too?

Wright also cared about its civilians.

And I answered this in the other thread:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

His father would not support total genocide of Windermere regardless of how Windermere acted. He'd not hold its whole race responsible for its military and royalty's actions. And Hayate will more than likely do it for Freyja, in other words, protecting her homeland, which is something his father would support in his son.

Regardless, my prior post is in past tense, as in he believed in what he saw during his time alive.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

You mean the Zentradi who the NUNs are both their allies and enemies, huh, I wonder why they're fighting?

The rebel Zentradi, based on all we've seen so far, dislike their own people who "side with humans," as in join their military or society. It's an ongoing issue, one NUNS on and off addresses. However, NUNS itself does not help in this area because it's never shown if they've ever peacefully resolved a conflict outside of drawing their weapons or thrusting a singer at them.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Are you denying that Windermere declared war in a time of peace, and used an ancient mind control weapon? Have you actually WATCHED the show?

Wow we've reached a new low of reading comprehension incapability.
You made an argument on what Ragna and the other planets would assume based on Windermere declaring war during peacetime that NUNS were the good guys, and I pointed out that they've also assumed that NUNS didn't bomb Windermere, which turned out to be false. (edit: in case this is unclear, my point is that what they would think is worth jack shit to me because it had no effect on the story. Really, it didn't. Even when NUNS was found out, nothing happened. Even when NUNS was going to bomb Ragna before everyone was evacuated, they weren't stopped.)
Name one thing NUNS did that had a positive outcome. I honestly can't remember.

[charles883]

Vallen Chaos Valiant, once again you contradicting yourselves on 2 wrong does make right as like youre not okay Middle east and NK nuke Europe but you okay that US nuke Middle east and NK?

Sorry but but you sounded very hypocrite

[ZeroForever]

Are you guys are forgetting that Windermere was conducting years of bio terrorist research/actions on all those nations. VAR had been around for sometime and was propagating due to Windermere.

2 wrongs don't make a right but if your only recourse is to nuke someone what has nation control/destroying bioweapons and has been murdering civilians for research, guess what's going to happen.

Nun's might not be good, but Windermere was shown to be outright evil.

[BetoJR]

You guys continue to really scare me. Wow.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

The rebel Zentradi, based on all we've seen so far, dislike their own people who "side with humans," as in join their military or society. It's an ongoing issue, one NUNS on and off addresses.

The Zents want one of two things. War or culture. The Zents on Galia were pacified almost immediately when Ranka showed up, except the one sole Zent who already sided with a terror organization.

The NUN and Zentradi have a very loose alliance, and more like a glorified version of non-aggression/limited cooperation. Most Zent also opted to live in their battleships than on planets.

The NUN realized very early on, since its first inception, that it cannot possibly pacify the Zentradi completely, so it has opted for limited reponse. Then again, the Zent still outnumber the NUN by a minimum of 9:1, thus rendering complete pacification impossible almost by default (and this gap only grows).

- Tak