Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[Bloodseeker]

I really wish that I didn't have anything to gripe about here.

I loved the first season of Code Geass. My only complaints were that Mao was underutilized (one of those rare cases where I dislike a character initially, but then look back and realize that they're actually pretty awesome), Suzaku in general (aside from a very brief stint right around R2 episode 21 where the memes were finally starting to make me a fan, I always hated him), and that Euphie's death scene didn't have the emotion that it should have for some reason that I could never put my finger on. It was one of my favorite anime. Watching the OPs from the first season make me nostalgia to back when Code Geass kicked ass. (well, the second and third do; always skipped the first)

But then the later episodes of R2 rolled around, I stopped liking Kallen for some reason (I think that it was partially because she got the fanservice treatment over more attractive girls like CC... and most of the goddamn female cannon fodder and partially because they tried to make her more "badass"; but somehow, that just doesn't feel like the entire equation, I dunno), Lelouch got stupid for plot convenience (episode 19), entirely too many cute girls got the cannon fodder treatment (Monica, Liliana, and Inoue >>> 95% of the female cast that actually gets to do stuff), the KotR got a laughably bad discarding as part of that, Rolo was a douche, Suzaku was still around, the last few episodes turned the story into a joke (Code Trainwreck indeed), etc.

Ugh.

[NoLongerSane]

^
I agree with you wholeheartly with the treatment of the Knights of the Round that did not carry the name of Anya, Suzaku, and Gino. Bismark really impressed me when he was shown fighting. Lucaino showed potential with his sadistic ways of fighting in his frame until Kallen showed up in her modified Guren, and then eliminated him while showing of that infamous pompus attitude that Kallen does when she kills of fodder. The Valkyria squad that accompanied Lucaino showed teamwork until they were one shotted by the Guren.

[Bloodseeker]

You know what it was?

Kallen got a Mary Sue air about her. The fanservice and the new found cold tough-talking attitude in battle... they tried to make her into the mech pilot equivalent of the trashy tough chick with a gun, as if saying "HEY, ISN'T SHE SEXY AND BADASS? YOU LOVE HER, RIGHT?"

Also, forgot to reiterate that CC was the only female character at the end that I still liked. Viletta lost a lot of her appeal later on (her voice actress was appropriately disappointed, IIRC), Cornelia felt like an extra throughout R2 (I did like her season 2 hairstyle though; never found her attractive in season 1), Milly... guess I still like her, but she didn't get to do much (also, Liliana and Monica are the more attractive blondes), Nina was a piece of shit and I was REALLY disappointed and agitated when the writers went to redeem her instead of killing her in a crowning moment of awesome (I don't want to like or feel sympathy for Nina, and you're not doing a very good job of making me; should have added that to my previous list), Miya was one of the most attractive but only made the occasional non-speaking cameo later on for obvious reasons, and I was always pretty indifferent to Anya. (actually, I wanted to like both her and Gino initially, but I gave up on that) The rest of the female cast was either dead or were just kinda background figures to me throughout.

[NoLongerSane]

Just a quick question, but did Anya and Monica share the same voice actress? As for Villetta, was the loss of appeal on how her character turned out. I noticed that the show was trying to do that mini-drama between her and Ohgi but what was going on with the main characters pretty much pushed it way into the background.

[Bloodseeker]

Originally Posted by NoLongerSane

^
I agree with you wholeheartly with the treatment of the Knights of the Round that did not carry the name of Anya, Suzaku, and Gino. Bismark really impressed me when he was shown fighting. Lucaino showed potential with his sadistic ways of fighting in his frame until Kallen showed up in her modified Guren, and then eliminated him while showing of that infamous pompus attitude that Kallen does when she kills of fodder. The Valkyria squad that accompanied Lucaino showed teamwork until they were one shotted by the Guren.

The writers obviously intended the deaths of the Valkyrie Squad and the KotR to be FUCK YEAH moments. It just made their deaths even more sad and agitating.

Also, I'd say that Luciano was the only KotR was handled properly. He at least got the mini boss treatment.

Rest of KotR can be summed up as...

Bismark: BUILT UP AS A HUGE BADASS THAT OUTMATCHES EVEN GODZAKU just so that he can be one shotted by Suzaku's new mech later without any further opportunities to show off how badass he is.

Monica: Hi guys, don't mind me, just being a moe background ch*explodes*

Dorothea: I'm almost strong as Bismark. So basi*explodes*

Gino: "What the hell are we going to do with this guy?" "I dunno. The director just said that he wanted an energetic blond haired pretty boy to help draw in the fangirls and act as a second yaoi pairing for Suzaku. Let's just have him randomly interact with Suzaku and Kallen so that it feels like he's doing something."

Anya: Acts as Marianne's vessel, doesn't do much else or contribute anything memorable character-wise.

[Bloodseeker]

Originally Posted by NoLongerSane

Just a quick question, but did Anya and Monica share the same voice actress?

Yuko Goto voices both of them. Early indicator of what was in store for the latter.

As for Villetta, was the loss of appeal on how her character turned out. I noticed that the show was trying to do that mini-drama between her and Ohgi but what was going on with the main characters pretty much pushed it way into the background.

Yeah, she felt like a background figure later on. The fact that she was paired with Ougly (which makes it really tough to have any kind of emotional attachment to the pairing) didn't help, either.

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by Bloodseeker

The writers obviously intended the deaths of the Valkyrie Squad and the KotR to be FUCK YEAH moments. It just made their deaths even more sad and agitating.

Also, I'd say that Luciano was the only KotR was handled properly. He at least got the mini boss treatment.

Rest of KotR can be summed up as...

Bismark: BUILT UP AS A HUGE BADASS THAT OUTMATCHES EVEN GODZAKU just so that he can be one shotted by Suzaku's new mech later without any further opportunities to show off how badass he is.

Monica: Hi guys, don't mind me, just being a moe background ch*explodes*

Dorothea: I'm almost strong as Bismark. So basi*explodes*

Gino: "What the hell are we going to do with this guy?" "I dunno. The director just said that he wanted an energetic blond haired pretty boy to help draw in the fangirls and act as a second yaoi pairing for Suzaku. Let's just have him randomly interact with Suzaku and Kallen so that it feels like he's doing something."

Anya: Acts as Marianne's vessel, doesn't do much else or contribute anything memorable character-wise.

Hi Bloodseeker,
Despite what they have said about Code Geass R2 not being so different from Season One, I can only say that Code Geass R2 is a totally different series that was geared at a different audience. It just doesn't have the type of feeling that Season One had.

I enjoyed watching Season One over Season Two because of the realism that was geared towards the mature late night audience. What was really sad about the Code Geass R2 was the fact that the producers wanted to retain the same latenight audience, until Sunrise changed the show's Thursday night timeslot to the least desired Sunday 5PM timeslot for the Spring lineup, in order to save the 5PM timeslot for Gundam 00 for the Fall 2008 lineup. The changes that the producers made to the Second Season of Code Geass R2 was not the fault of the creators. Even they had resented being forced to make changes to a top rated show to suit a younger audience until Gundam 00 was ready to assume the Sunday 5PM timeslot for the Fall season.

As a result of the changes that the producers had made, the second season was mostly rushed and unbalanced, when it came to the storyline. In contrast to Season One, Code Geass R2 felt like watching another Gundam series. A lot of things just didn't add up. For example, Lelouch's character for Season 2 was much different than his Season 1 version because he never told Suzaku the real reason to why he killed Euphemia, as well as tell him that he accidently geassed her to kill the Japanese. The Lelouch from the First Season, would have told Suzaku everything. Not the lame crap that Euphie was killed because she would have destroyed his plans when Lelouch originally intended to geass her to kill him instead.

[NoLongerSane]

Well if anything, I really enjoyed the mechs that were presented on this show. Their presentation were more towards a sleek design and the power technology was interesting to see in action. In actuallity, I enjoy watching the different designs and technology concept presented in a Sunrise mech show. The duel-kind abilities and the design of the Neuroniods on Betterman, the Oveman and the COAT technology from Overman King Gainer, the robot shaft and it's usage based on genes in Geneshaft.

[Bloodseeker]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

Hi Bloodseeker,
Despite what they have said about Code Geass R2 not being so different from Season One, I can only say that Code Geass R2 is a totally different series that was geared at a different audience. It just doesn't have the type of feeling that Season One had.

I enjoyed watching Season One over Season Two because of the realism that was geared towards the mature late night audience. What was really sad about the Code Geass R2 was the fact that the producers wanted to retain the same latenight audience, until Sunrise changed the show's Thursday night timeslot to the least desired Sunday 5PM timeslot for the Spring lineup, in order to save the 5PM timeslot for Gundam 00 for the Fall 2008 lineup. The changes that the producers made to the Second Season of Code Geass R2 was not the fault of the creators. Even they had resented being forced to make changes to a top rated show to suit a younger audience until Gundam 00 was ready to assume the Sunday 5PM timeslot for the Fall season.

Taniguchi has said that the show ended mostly as he had originally intended, IIRC, so I can blame at least the disappointing cliched ending on him, and probably the final boss sucking as well. (seeing as how Schneizel was ALWAYS boring)

Also, I know that an entire story arc was cut because of the time change (in exchange for a new arc to fill in the new audience members to what was going on, and there's no telling what might have been intended within that arc or how it might have influenced what we think of the last few episodes), that episode 21's unintentional hilarity felt like executive meddling at work (MAKE IT DEEP LIKE EVANGELION), and that executive meddling may have had a lot to do with Kallen's change in demeanor, but I doubt that things like the mismanagement of the KotR or CC not getting to do much of anything throughout can be solely pinned on the executives. Time crunched or not, Taniguchi was still the director. You'd think that "what role will CC play in this" would be towards the top of his brainstorming list and that having each of the KotR be active and successful throughout so that they don't come across as a weak group that's all hype like what we ultimately got would also be kind of important. It feels like he didn't make a proper saving throw.

Its also worth noting that developing the side cast was a weak point of his in the first season, as well. We had Lelouch, CC, Suzaku, Kallen, Nunally, Shirley, Milly, Nina, Viletta, Euphie, and Cornelia, and then all of the rest felt like weak characters or even non-characters. (which accounts for a fairly large portion of the cast, considering that we have Lelouch's lieutenants and all of the Britannian side characters) There's no telling if Taniguchi would have handled the KotR properly without the executive meddling.

tl; dr Its probably unfair to pin ALL OF IT on the executives. There's at least two problems (the cliched ending and Schneizel) that can definitely be pinned on Taniguchi. This is also a common problem with these kinds of epics: Its sometimes difficult to end it on a note that lives up to the rest of the story.

And one more thing: IIRC, Taniguchi's original idea for CG was going to be a more generic war story. (no powers, two soldiers on opposites sides, focusing more on the Suzaku of the two) Executive meddling was what gave us the CG that we know now.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Bloodseeker

The writers obviously intended the deaths of the Valkyrie Squad and the KotR to be FUCK YEAH moments. It just made their deaths even more sad and agitating.

Kallen killing Luciano was a Crowning Moment of Awesome at least. First he wanted to rape her while she was imprisoned, then while in combat, she sends his battle cry right back in his face.

[Bloodseeker]

Originally Posted by azul120

Kallen killing Luciano was a Crowning Moment of Awesome at least. First he wanted to rape her while she was imprisoned, then while in combat, she sends his battle cry right back in his face.

Wasn't really counting Luciano in that equation. >_>

Like I said, he was the only one that was handled correctly in most respects.

And I was too busy mourning the Valkyrie Squad to care. ;_;

[bladeofdarkness]

Luciano was as one dimensional as any of the other knights
its just that his "one dimension" was suitable for his role in the story
and mourning a bunch of red-shirts is kinda pointless dont you think

as for Bloodseeker's annoyance with the last parts of the show
i agree
the entire last arc was too rushed, and included too many useless aspects for comfort
ep 22 alone is a pretty annoying one in terms of how fast it goes
in one ep you have
1)lelouch crushing the last opposition in britannia and making steps towards Z-R
2)the introduction of the new concept OF Z-R
3)suzaku curb stomping the most powerful force in britannia (and develops superpowers in the process)
4)the romantic subplot gets wrapped up
5)Lelouch declares war against the world, and conquers japan
6)the damocles is revealed, and pendragon is destroyed
7)nunnaly is revealed to be alive
all these elements in one ep, in a show that would normally spend half an ep on covering 2-3 of them in one ep
the end result is that its bland across the board

you can like or dislike kallen all you want
but the tough talking hot blooded attitude was there from season 1
its not a new addition for season 2 you know

as for C.C being the only female you still liked
i'm guessing its because in the end of the show, C.C is almost exactly the same as she was at the start
she's still not doing much, and didnt get much development other then learning about stuff that happened BEFORE the show started
which is another down side of the show

[Bloodseeker]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

Luciano was as one dimensional as any of the other knights
its just that his "one dimension" was suitable for his role in the story
and mourning a bunch of red-shirts is kinda pointless dont you think

as for Bloodseeker's annoyance with the last parts of the show
i agree
the entire last arc was too rushed, and included too many useless aspects for comfort
ep 22 alone is a pretty annoying one in terms of how fast it goes
in one ep you have
1)lelouch crushing the last opposition in britannia and making steps towards Z-R
2)the introduction of the new concept OF Z-R
3)suzaku curb stomping the most powerful force in britannia (and develops superpowers in the process)
4)the romantic subplot gets wrapped up
5)Lelouch declares war against the world, and conquers japan
6)the damocles is revealed, and pendragon is destroyed
7)nunnaly is revealed to be alive
all these elements in one ep, in a show that would normally spend half an ep on covering 2-3 of them in one ep
the end result is that its bland across the board

you can like or dislike kallen all you want
but the tough talking hot blooded attitude was there from season 1
its not a new addition for season 2 you know

as for C.C being the only female you still liked
i'm guessing its because in the end of the show, C.C is almost exactly the same as she was at the start
she's still not doing much, and didnt get much development other then learning about stuff that happened BEFORE the show started
which is another down side of the show

Kallen was tough in season 1.

But the big difference here is that it didn't feel like they were shoving it down your throat.

She didn't go spitting catchlines or talking trash to her opponents. She was just a tough and loyal soldier girl.

Spoiler:

Just look at her. Its like she's saying "Damn, I'm cool."

And then she takes up this demeanor.

Spoiler:

This kind of snarkiness definitely isn't season 1 Kallen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against making tweaks to a character or blowing up certain character qualities of theirs in an attempt to make them more likable, but this didn't work. I guess that the easiest way of putting it would be to say that this Kallen is "colder" than the one that I liked. She doesn't feel as human.

Also, lol @ implying that Kallen got better development than CC. Between her backstory, the Mao arc, and her bonding moments with Lelouch and way of acting independently... CC herself may not have changed much from beginning to end (and really, the only ones that did through the channels of solid character development were Lelouch and Suzaku), but her relationship with Lelouch definitely evolved (not implying that Kallen's didn't) and the audience is made to view her through quiet a few different lenses (the sharp and whimsical woman, the tough and highly independent woman that openly serves herself first, the cold woman that abandoned Mao, the lonely girl that wants love but is trying to fool herself into running away, Lelouch's most trusted ally and one of the few that are smart enough to stand in for him as well as one of the very few that are on even footing with him (which would of course be why she's his ally and partner rather than his subordinate), etc.) in comparison to someone like Kallen. I'm not normally one to resort to yelling CHARACTER DEPTH DEEP DEEP DEEP, but there's a lot more complexity and things to learn about someone like CC. Kallen is fairly simple by comparison. (not saying that this is a bad thing by itself, BTW; I don't put that much importance on character depth or character dynamicness compared to endearing character interaction; a likable character with little backstory that doesn't change at all >>>>>> a complex yet unlikable character; the former is likely the one that adds more to the enjoyment of the story)

[bladeofdarkness]

i was talking about C.C in season 2 specificlly
season 1 lay the basis for her development (in season 1 she did get developed)
and season 2 never took up on that
almost all of her development is about her back story before she met lelouch

she starts the show wanting to die
by ep 21 of season 2, she aids marianne in showing up at the sword of arkasha, and doesnt even try to resist charles almost taking her code (lelouch stops him)
because she doesnt CARE
she starts out apathetic, and as late as panultimate arc, she's STILL apathetic
which makes the entire bit with her in turn 15 kinda mote
she pushes charles away then, but still willingly shows up to be killed the next time
thats not development
there is a LOT you can do with an immortal character who has lived for hundreds of years, and the show just doesnt pick up on that potential

[Bloodseeker]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i was talking about C.C in season 2 specificlly
season 1 lay the basis for her development (in season 1 she did get developed)
and season 2 never took up on that
almost all of her development is about her back story before she met lelouch

she starts the show wanted to die
by ep 21 of season 2, she aids marianne in showing up at the sword of arkasha, and doesnt even try to resist charles almost taking her code (lelouch stops him)
because she doesnt CARE
she starts out apathetic and as late as panultimate arc, she's STILL apathetic
which makes the entire bit with her in turn 15 kinda mote
she pushes charles away then, but still willingly shows up to be killed the next time

And then she sides with Lelouch over Charles and Marianne, which is why she didn't disappear. And then the last few episodes had fairly straight forward affection between Lelouch and CC.

Also, CC was NEVER apathetic. A desire for death is hardly apathy. Throughout the show, everything that she did was driven by a desire to satisfy herself or to run from hardship.

[Revolutionist]

What was the point of putting that chick in the Valkyrie squad to say Kewel's name? I mean it had to be some sick joke that the characters wanted Kallen to not just kill Kewell but his sister too..

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

What was the point of putting that chick in the Valkyrie squad to say Kewel's name? I mean it had to be some sick joke that the characters wanted Kallen to not just kill Kewell but his sister too..

Code Geass is basically a giant ball of sick jokes mixed in with a powerful plot.

[Revolutionist]

I meant to say the writers, not the characters lol. dont make posts at 7 Am lol.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

What was the point of putting that chick in the Valkyrie squad to say Kewel's name? I mean it had to be some sick joke that the characters wanted Kallen to not just kill Kewell but his sister too..

Apparently that girl was introduced in the novel adaptation for the first season, somehow, so I suppose having her there was also a reference. Killing her off so quickly did seem like overkill, but I didn't really mind either.

I'll have to go down to my grave without really getting all the concern for the Valkyrie Girls in general.

I get they're attractive character designs, but not much else. It didn't piss me off.

Then again, I can't honestly sympathize with such major mood swings as Bloodseeker's either, even if actually share a couple of those particular complaints about the show. Not most of them though.

[roriconfan]

What happened to that geassed girl that was scratching the school wall every day?