Controversial Fansub Documentary

[MightyOtaking]

Well well. Seems I'm quite the popular bunny. Though I'm not too thrilled about having my home address and telephone number (which are meant for translation clients and professional use) posting on the "noob-infested" internet where the most commonly used word is "fag" and everyone likes to "pwn" everyone else.

That aside...

If indeed my video is filled with terrible examples, then I'm happy about that. I'd love to think that I just happened to randomly chance upon the absolute crappesy fansubs, and that all the rest are actually good. In "random survey" style, I just grabbed what I could.

My MAIN POINT is this:
We've all played Metal Gear Solid, right? We all agree the translation is a masterpiece, both in script and voice acting, yeah? Are there any honorifics, liner notes of Japanese cultural jokes left in? Not a single one. And does anyone here feel that it reduced their enjoyment of the game? No, because it was translated by a god.

Now to address a few points:

Vegard Aune - The only reason that fansubbers kept Edward Elric in that name order is because that's what order it was in the actual script. I bet you a slice of my finest pie that if it was Elric Edward in the Japanese script, the fansubbers would have left it that way. Just like Kaizoku Fansubs do. When I'm in Japan, I write my name as "Johnson Paul", because that's how name order goes in Japan. In the West, it's the opposite, so it should be subbed that way. ESPECIALLY in shows that aren't set in Japan, and where the characters aren't speaking Japanese (like Lord of the Rings, we're just "hearing" it in Japanese. They're meant to be speaking whatever language that country uses, like Gunslinger Girl, Noir, Gunsmith Cats etc).

Fansubber names in credits - of course they deserve to take credit for their work. So stick it at the end credits or something, and not in a massive font that's bigger than the name of the anime itself. That's what old fansubs used to do, and it showed respect. The anime is more important than the fansubber.

日本ひきこもり協会 - I'll buy you a beer if I ever meet you.

Toua - I've heard the whole "fansubs aren't professionals and never claimed to be" argument a lot, but there's a counter argument. fansubs (old ones, I'm talking about. Early 90s) are often better than the recent official DVD release.There's nothing to say that fansubs can't be top-quality. Even better than official DVDs.Remember, official companies pay translators who have no love of the show they're translating. It's just a nameless job to them. Psycho-KORPS(who love Macross) produced a godlike Macross 7 translation in the 90s because they love Macross, and the fansubs for the Macross Movie are by far superior to the official Kiseki DVD subs. In short, the cream of the crop of old fansubs were indeed better than official releases, and thus MORE professional than the pros themselves!

bayoab - As for pro subs not "being able" to include liner notes, see the part on Otaku no Video where I mention the massive booklet of notes they bundled with the video. The methods are there if they want to. There's no need to clutter the screen with redundant crap.

And I never said they shouldn't translate signs! I just said that superimposing them over the artists' work is disrespectful. See 06:44 of this http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PFu9lh37X34 for the professional way.

Slice of Life - "if fansubs suck, more power to the industry. So why complaining Mr. Otaking?"
...Basically, because so-called "professional" DVD companies are now starting to do honorifics and all the notes and assorted screen clutter. It's like a plague that's spreading. Besides... fansubs will always be more popular. They're free, and people can get them a day after they're on in Japan. Who cares if the translation is completely wrong and they're not understanding the plot at all? (see the ZZ Gundam fansubs. It is literally the opposite of what the characters are saying in many instances).

Oyume - I respect what you're trying to say, but localisation exists for a reason and can totally enhance the quality of a show without removing any of the flavour or nuances. Have you heard of a Sega CD game called SNATCHER? It's known as one of the best Japanese-English translations in history. I really suggest you take a look (it was the forerunner to Metal Gear Solid, by Kojima, the same Director). If you;re serious about getting a class product out there, take a look at it: http://hg101.classicgaming.gamespy.c...r/snatcher.htm
The translation was done by Jeremy Blaustein, who also translated Metal Gear Solid with his company WORDBOX.

Koroku - That's the way fansubs will become if something isn't done! I am the prophet of doom.

[MightyOtaking]

...Oh, and "Tofusensei"...
I'm becoming increasingly less impressed by your personal sniping. Especially as you sent me a very polite message over YouTube asking me to take a look at your translations, only to then find you slagging off my so called stupidity to your friends on this forum. Good lord, man.
And as for the "He's not much of a pro if you look at his CV..." line... not only is that kind of below the belt, but have you ever heard of confidentiality clauses? I'm not even allowed to name any of the projects I've translated for the last 6 months, and could be sued if I did.... and many light novels take up to a year from me handing them in to them getting out on the shelves, so I can't mention those names either until they're in print. I don't want to blow my own tubo or anything, and maybe I haven't single-handedly translated all of Final Fantasy 7 as I'm sure many of your fansubber friends have, but personally, though, I wouldn't make light of someone who'd worked on Phantom Hourglass and Paper Mario. They're not exactly unknown titles, you know.

[Access]

The SOV word order is also often hard to localize. For instance when a character means to say "I love you", the verb love is the last word. If he doesn't say the whole thing, or hesitates, the meaning can often be lost. Whereas in english, saying "I love..." still gets the meaning across. Hence, the wierd word order that often seems awkward in english, where a partial or cut-off sentence might have a totally different meaning or ambiguity.

He is a hypocrite to talk of minimalism, but then to also insist that _everything_ be translated, trans-literated, and such. Even if one agrees with his comments on minimalism in subtitle graphic, form, and obtrusiveness; there is another type of minimalism in that modern fans are not totally ignorant of japan, japanese culture; and hence things like honorifics, etc. do not _need_ to be translated for the target audience, so a minimalistic approach is to _leave them alone_. The purpose of translation is to assist in the understanding of the show, and hence things already understood in japanese _do not need to_ be translated. The essence of minimalism is just that, understanding that no translation is perfect, and hence leaving things that are understood as-they-are alone.

Also I think he can convince himself he is 'popular', but he will be forgotten in about a week or two. Do you think his videos go beyond 'fair use' in terms of copyright violation? Not to mention posting commercially licensed shows on youtube... must have quite a collection of those judging from everything that was in the video. And it is unrealistic to expect popularity with anonymity; online anything is fair game and if you really want to stay anonymous, you stay un-noticed in the first place, and you definately don't leave tons of clues lying around like that.

And I don't think his attitude is completely useless. He is tempered by what he does and the world he lives in. For the work he does his attitude and outlook is probably a useful one. He is trying to appeal to the masses and the common, everday people. Fansubbers are not. Now the attitude of fansubbers may come across of clique-ish or elitist in this way, but it is no more elitist for an outsider to _insist_ things be done his way, or the way thought of by the ROW as 'proper'.

[PEDOS_GRANDE]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

...Oh, and "Tofusensei"...
I'm becoming increasingly less impressed by your personal sniping. Especially as you sent me a very polite message over YouTube asking me to take a look at your translations, only to then find you slagging off my so called stupidity to your friends on this forum. Good lord, man.
And as for the "He's not much of a pro if you look at his CV..." line... not only is that kind of below the belt, but have you ever heard of confidentiality clauses? I'm not even allowed to name any of the projects I've translated for the last 6 months, and could be sued if I did.... and many light novels take up to a year from me handing them in to them getting out on the shelves, so I can't mention those names either until they're in print. I don't want to blow my own tubo or anything, and maybe I haven't single-handedly translated all of Final Fantasy 7 as I'm sure many of your fansubber friends have, but personally, though, I wouldn't make light of someone who'd worked on Phantom Hourglass and Paper Mario. They're not exactly unknown titles, you know.

Less impressive; tofu or your posts?

I don't know how seriously to take someone that insists on writing their name as Johnson Paul as soon as his plane touches down at Narita.

And sir, you are no Matt Alt

[D404]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

We've all played Metal Gear Solid, right? We all agree the translation is a masterpiece, both in script and voice acting, yeah?

LOL, you think the dubbing in MGS is good? LOL @ David Hayter as Snake.

P.S. I know I'm not addressing the actual issue, but I found this funny.

[MightyOtaking]

Assuming someone's motives is murky territory. I doubt you're capable of reading my mind. I imagine I'll be forgotten in less than a week if you ask me, which is fine because unlike modern fansub groups (the ones I've seen, anyway) I'm not trying to prove how large my throbbing online member is, as it were.

As for leaving clues, you can find any pro translator's details on PROZ.com or Translator's Cafe, so it's not much good saying I deliberately pimped myself out there to no doubt get all the honeys round to my pimped-up student house full of mould and grime ^_^;

"modern fans are not totally ignorant of japan, japanese culture; and hence things like honorifics, etc. do not _need_ to be translated for the target audience," - And yet there's a "san" and a "chan" after every damn name in most fansubs? Aren't you contradicting yourself there?

[Draders]

So whats your goal here? To tell us how we should do our hobbies just so you can watch free anime the way you like to? We are not proffessionals, most of us do this for fun, and if that means rediculous karaokes and text effects then that's the way it's going to be. If you don't like it, do your own fansubs and cater to those people that agree with you. Why can't you just except the fact that people like things different then you. Get over yourself.

[MightyOtaking]

Originally Posted by D404

LOL, you think the dubbing in MGS is good? LOL @ David Hayter as Snake.

P.S. I know I'm not addressing the actual issue, but I found this funny.

Er... you don't? I think MGS set new standards in game voice acting and translated scripting. And on that one, I think most games magazines would agree with me.
Anyway, David Hayter will bio-boost into the Guyver and cut your nads off with his blades if you dis him!

[D404]

Indeed, as drader's says.

Also, if the actual licensing companies have started to do it this way, doesn't that tell you something? It's what the fans want. So go bitch to them.

[Shouta]

Some good points in the videos but the tone is waaaay too aggressive and pompous.

[Schneizel]

Hi MightyOtaking! I'm from a fansub group and we're speed subbers. We can't fansub in 30mins like your video was saying everyone could do these days. In fact, no one can speed sub in 30mins (Edit: Well, maybe the Chinese, but they use .rmvb and have pandas so I'm not even gunna fuck with them). Our best time so far was an 8hr release from the TBS airing (but the show aired 24hrs earlier on MBS so eh). We'd like to be able to while retaining the same quality we make with 8-11hr releases. Could you perhaps tell us how we could go about doing this? Currently, the biggest time chunk is currently spent on translation and editing. We really don't know how to make ourselves faster so you could you please explain the 30min process? Thanks in advance.

[MightyOtaking]

Originally Posted by Draders

So whats your goal here? To tell us how we should do our hobbies just so you can watch free anime the way you like to? We are not proffessionals, most of us do this for fun, and if that means rediculous karaokes and text effects then that's the way it's going to be. If you don't like it, do your own fansubs and cater to those people that agree with you. Why can't you just except the fact that people like things different then you. Get over yourself.

Jimaku and Cathedral Animation in the early 90s weren't professionals, and they fansubbed for fun. And they turned out incredibly classy products.
This "We're not pros so we can be crap if we want to" argument doesn't really work in light of fansubs past.

But anyway, you're right. I'm hardly likely to change your mind. Do as you please, when all's said and done.

[D404]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

Er... you don't? I think MGS set new standards in game voice acting and translated scripting. And on that one, I think most games magazines would agree with me.
Anyway, David Hayter will bio-boost into the Guyver and cut your nads off with his blades if you dis him!

Can you overacting? (is that the right word? over-dramatizing? i dunno, im not an english major)

[MightyOtaking]

Originally Posted by kodachrome

Hi MightyOtaking! I'm from a fansub group and we're speed subbers. We can't fansub in 30mins like your video was saying everyone could do these days. In fact, no one can speed sub in 30mins (Edit: Well, maybe the Chinese, but they use .rmvb and have pandas so I'm not even gunna fuck with them). Our best time so far was an 8hr release from the TBS airing (but the show aired 24hrs earlier on MBS so eh). We'd like to be able to while retaining the same quality we make with 8-11hr releases. Could you perhaps tell us how we could go about doing this? Currently, the biggest time chunk is currently spent on translation and editing. We really don't know how to make ourselves faster so you could you please explain the 30min process? Thanks in advance.

Heh heh. TOUCHE! And yet...
Get yourself a copy of Transtation, which subs directly from a Word file. Play the anime, very quickly mis-type a wrong translation as the anime is playing (interpreters can do that), send the word file over to Transtation and DIVX it in about 10 minutes...
Er...yes. It would probably take 40 minutes, actually.

Anyway,you know I was joking with that "30 minutes" bit, surely. Like when someone says "The economy changed overnight!"

[D404]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

DIVX it in about 10 minutes...

LOL DivX. Fansubs haven't use DivX (or rather, DivX ) in a while now.

[Draders]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

Jimaku and Cathedral Animation in the early 90s weren't professionals, and they fansubbed for fun. And they turned out incredibly classy products.
This "We're not pros so we can be crap if we want to" argument doesn't really work in light of fansubs past.

But anyway, you're right. I'm hardly likely to change your mind. Do as you please, when all's said and done.

Back in my day I walked through 50 metres of snow just to get a raw anime episode...

Time change, again get over it.

Also fansubbers get more complaints if they don't include a karaoke then if they do, so calling it crap is a minority opinion among the fansub community.

[Schneizel]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

Heh heh. TOUCHE! And yet...
Get yourself a copy of Transtation, which subs directly from a Word file. Play the anime, very quickly mis-type a wrong translation as the anime is playing (interpreters can do that), send the word file over to Transtation and DIVX it in about 10 minutes...
Er...yes. It would probably take 40 minutes, actually.

Anyway,you know I was joking with that "30 minutes" bit, surely. Like when someone says "The economy changed overnight!"

No my group really does want to sub in 30mins it's our goal to catch up to GONZO's speed on Blassreiter and Druaga. They're a very formidable foe though. I completely believed you when you said 30mins since you're like super pro (Maybe you have the flux capacitator, how the hell am I supposed to know!) so I was like, "Holy shit!" , but now I am very disappointed.

[Access]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

"modern fans are not totally ignorant of japan, japanese culture; and hence things like honorifics, etc. do not _need_ to be translated for the target audience," - And yet there's a "san" and a "chan" after every damn name in most fansubs? Aren't you contradicting yourself there?

In most cases, it's there, so they are leaving it in. While it may be unnecessary in some cases, it is what it is. Things are rarely perfect in every respect, nor are fansubs evaluated against the 'perfect' standard that the professional world is. Translations can be long, awkward, or downright bizarre, and many groups or their fans won't throw a fit or get all bent out of shape b'cos of it.

Few translators are removed or thrown out of the group they are in for failing to adhere to some kind of standard or not translating things 'well enough'. Translators are in short supply, groups have to make do with the people and skills that are avaliable and how could it be any different?

One thing you have to consider is how many of these 'professional' translators that you speak of are willing to work on a volunteer basis for nothing much really. Groups are just a bunch of people doing just that, the best they can. Not to mention that some are pretty rushed in trying to get things out to beat their rivals. But even the groups that are non-opposed or do not care for rivalry -- How can one expect them to live up to any real 'standard', especially one based on the outsider's view of perfection and based on appealing to the masses?

"Also fansubbers get more complaints if they don't include a karaoke then if they do, so calling it crap is a minority opinion among the fansub community." But to do things for the sole purpose of "People will complain if we don't do this", isn't that the ultimate in conformity or pandering? Things should serve a purpose in their own right.

[Draders]

Originally Posted by Access

But to do things for the sole purpose of "People will complain if we don't do this", isn't that the ultimate in conformity or pandering? Things should serve a purpose in their own right.

I was simply stating what they want, not that we should all do it that way.

Purpose is a far reaching word, the purpose for making a karaoke could simply be that it's fun to make karaokes. The purpose of including it in an episode of anime is so that other karaokers can see it, get influenced by it and make one so that then the person who made the first one can see it get influenced by it and make one.

Thats one of many possible purposes of doing fansubs that way.

[EvilLinkz]

Wasn't the point of fansubbing just to watch a show? So there's shit on the side, treat them like you would commercials while watching regular TV. If you like what you see, you watch it otherwise ignore it.