Was Destiny a purely black and white show?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

I won't argue with you but as long as AA doesn't have any proof that Dullindal is the one behind Lacus's attack, they don't have any reason to justify their next acts including attaking Minerva without any clear reason/declaration.

The Archangel did have proof of Durandal's actions - it may not have been 100% definitive, but it was extremely compelling. Note also that the different characters saw the proof in different ways: Kira thought that it was sufficient reason to distrust any and all of Durandal's actions, while Lacus was likely already convinced that he was he was her enemy. Interestingly, this proof has nothing to do with Archangel's later attack upon Minerva.

Originally Posted by coba

I will give you an example in the real world: You know that a lot of nations support US coallisions in the Gulf War I. Why ? Because they can proved that Iraq did something wrong (invading Kuwait).

That's not the complete reason. While the main reason that the world largely supported the U.S. was because of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait (although it wasn't an altogether unprovoked invasion), but because the response was proportionate to the crime committed. If the Americans had vocalized that their goal was to remove Saddam Hussein and occupy Iraq, the support would be much more lacklustre.

Originally Posted by coba

Only few nation support US in the Gulf War II, in fact, most nations condemn US. Why ? Because they can't prove thei reasoning that Saddam is related to Al Qaeda.

Not quite. The idea that Saddam was related to Al-Qeada was so ridiculous that it was only shopped around the U.S. The Americans never bothered trying to convince the rest of the world that it was true. What they tried to sell was the fact that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that had been disallowed by the UN. And in fact, much of the world was convinced that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction - however, they did not feel that an invasion was proprotionate to the supposed crime. Instead, most countries suggested that other alternatives were more appropriate responses.

However, both cases serve as poor analogies to the assassination: the vast majority of the evidence available pointed to Saddam Hussein being innocent of both charges. It would be a decent analogy for looking at the available evidence, and acting on a conclusion that ran counter to it. But in the case of the assassination, it would be like blaming the EA or Yuna despite the fact that everything suggests that Durandal was responsible.

Originally Posted by coba

Also which Destiny staff claimed that Dullindal is in fact involved in the assasination. I remeber that a staff explained about Terminal, etc, but no one claimed that.

I believe that it was Fukuda himself.

Originally Posted by coba

Well if that's the case, then how come Cagalli doesn't contact anyone in Orb's government. With Cagalli's lack of communication, AA is definitely confirmed as a renegade ship and thus, attacked by Orb in ep 23. If you don't believe me, even other countries like ZAFT know about the "kidnapping" incident. If it is not "kidnapping", Cagalli should deny that right away.

What good would it do? She'd have to admit that her power had been usurped as well. While it may gain her some sympathy points, it would also make her already tenuous claim to power even more slim. And there's no "if" about it - Cagalli was in charge of Archangel, and everybody was following her orders.

Originally Posted by coba

Also, I don't see any reason why AA has rights to attack Minerva. Minerva never initiate any attack agist AA in their first meeeting (in ep 2). Freedom is the one who shoots Minerva's bowgun first and cause unnecessary casulaties. Also, I am pretty sure that AA never declares war against ZAFT. It is like as if someone hit you in the middle of the road without aby reason whatsoever.

The situation is as follows:
1. Archangel is an Orb military vessel.
2. Orb was at war with PLANT.
3. At the point when they met, Minerva was about to fire upon the Orb Navy.

Even if they disagreed with Orb's participation in the war, Archangel was fully justified in protecting their fellow countrymen. By the way instead of simply destroying Minerva's main gun, I think that it would have been a better decision to sink it outright.

Originally Posted by coba

So, if they are a good guy and a good civilian, then they should act accordingly by giving a proof or any other stuff. Are you telling me that if someone stole your thing then it meant that you are allowed to steal somethin else from other?

Bringing forth a public accusation against Durandal was absolutely useless at that point in time. Not only was he the head of state, but his country was already at war. Since he was quite willing to dispatch assassins to further his purposes, coming out in the open would only have opened them up to further avenues of attack.



Off-topic:

Originally Posted by coba

I know that Gondwana is the official flag ship. I like to use a term of flag ship since it represents the fact that Minerva is their main battle ship while Godwana is the main carrier.

A flag ship is not the "main battleship" of a Navy.

Originally Posted by coba

p.s: I can't find any other thread that is suitable for this discussion.

That's probably because it's been dormant for quite a while, but here it is.

[coba]

The Archangel did have proof of Durandal's actions - it may not have been 100% definitive, but it was extremely compelling.

What is the proof that they can show ? Just a scrape of metal from blown up MS that can't be identified ? The problem is that they can only suspect someone, but they can't charge him/her for the crime that he/she commited as long as you don't have a strong proof.

Note also that the different characters saw the proof in different ways: Kira thought that it was sufficient reason to distrust any and all of Durandal's actions, while Lacus was likely already convinced that he was he was her enemy. Interestingly, this proof has nothing to do with Archangel's later attack upon Minerva.

He can suspect Dullindal as much as they want, but it doesn't give them any right to attack Minerva. Minerva's crew knows nothing about Dullindal's actions and now they are the one who should pay for it. This shows that even AA/Lacus/Kira does act in the grey area during GSD. In GS, they really are a good side, but not in GSD.

If the Americans had vocalized that their goal was to remove Saddam Hussein and occupy Iraq, the support would be much more lacklustre.

However, both cases serve as poor analogies to the assassination: the vast majority of the evidence available pointed to Saddam Hussein being innocent of both charges.

Yes, that's my point. US had clear reason to invade Iraq in the Gulf War I: Iraq's breached International Rule of engagement by attacking Kuwait. --> they can prove their reason in front of those nations

However, in Gulf War II, thei reasoning is so silly: they invaded Iraq for the sake of war aginst terrorism (Al Qaeda) --> they don't even have any proof that Saddam has connection to Al Qaeda.

I believe that it was Fukuda himself.

Fukuda never said anything or gave any interview regarding that matters . I remembered that he never clarified some stuffs in GSD such as the history of SF and IJ, etc. Also, that answer (from the thread linked in your post) doesn't give you a definite answer and sounds more like speculative answer. Don't getm e wrong, I did suspect that Dullindal is behind the assasination, but they only gave us hints, not a definite proof.

And there's no "if" about it - Cagalli was in charge of Archangel, and everybody was following her orders.

Well no one else outside the AA crews knows what the hell is going on with the incident. If you don't clarify anything to a third person,

The situation is as follows:
1. Archangel is an Orb military vessel.
2. Orb was at war with PLANT.
3. At the point when they met, Minerva was about to fire upon the Orb Navy.

The first point is already wrong. AA is officially not part of Orb miltary in ep 23. They join Orb afterward with the ceremony (in ep 45). THat's the reason why Juna uses that excuse and orders an attack against Strike Rouge and AA.

Since he was quite willing to dispatch assassins to further his purposes, coming out in the open would only have opened them up to further avenues of attack

So ... it still doesn't give AA any reason to attack Minerva nor Lacus to steal the shuttle.

A flag ship is not the "main battleship" of a Navy.

Well the definition of the flag ship is usually the ship where the highest rank commander of the ship. The highest commander of ZAFT is Dullindal and he is in Minerva twice: during ep 4 and ep 37 (Heaven base battle ).

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

What is the proof that they can show ? Just a scrape of metal from blown up MS that can't be identified ? The problem is that they can only suspect someone, but they can't charge him/her for the crime that he/she commited as long as you don't have a strong proof.

They could establish that Durandal had motive, method and opportunity. None of these apply to any other faction; no one else even had the motive to eliminate Lacus. In any case, it's sort of ludicrous to charge the head of state of a crime in the middle of a full-blown war.

I really suggest that we take this to the other thread if you want to continue this line of argument.

Originally Posted by coba

He can suspect Dullindal as much as they want, but it doesn't give them any right to attack Minerva. Minerva's crew knows nothing about Dullindal's actions and now they are the one who should pay for it. This shows that even AA/Lacus/Kira does act in the grey area during GSD. In GS, they really are a good side, but not in GSD.

I just pointed out the this had nothing to do with the reason they attacked Minerva.

Originally Posted by coba

Yes, that's my point. US had clear reason to invade Iraq in the Gulf War I: Iraq's breached International Rule of engagement by attacking Kuwait. --> they can prove their reason in front of those nations

However, in Gulf War II, thei reasoning is so silly: they invaded Iraq for the sake of war aginst terrorism (Al Qaeda) --> they don't even have any proof that Saddam has connection to Al Qaeda.

While your premise is fairly solid, your reasoning is backwards; there is a lot of evidence that Durandal was the culprit.

Originally Posted by coba

Well no one else outside the AA crews knows what the hell is going on with the incident. If you don't clarify anything to a third person,

I'm not sure what your point is. What's the advantage Cagalli will gain in informing anyone else? It's not as if anyone was targeting them until the Angel Down operation anyways. I've already pointed out that it would reduce her own claim to power. Likewise, Lacus could simply have proclaimed that Meer was a lie - but if the timing was wrong, she had far more to lose than to gain from doing so.

Originally Posted by coba

The first point is already wrong. AA is officially not part of Orb miltary in ep 23. They join Orb afterward with the ceremony (in ep 45). THat's the reason why Juna uses that excuse and orders an attack against Strike Rouge and AA.

That isn't quite true. While Archangel wasn't officially commissioned until episode 46, it was unofficially an Orb warship. The most obvious indicator is that it was well known as a friendly according to the Orb central command FoF system (just like Freedom was). And even if it wasn't an Orb military vessel, it was refurbished and maintained at an Orb military base, it was crewed by either Orb citizens or residents, it was commanded by the Orb head of state, it followed Orb military practices, and everyone wore Orb uniforms.

While Juna did use Archangel's status as an excuse for his usurption, he would have equally latched onto any other convenient raison d'etre. Note that nobody in the Orb fleet actually believed him, so it was obviously a flimsy excuse.

Originally Posted by coba

So ... it still doesn't give AA any reason to attack Minerva nor Lacus to steal the shuttle.

It's not the reason for Archangel's attack on Minerva; but as Durandal is established as their enemy, they were fully justified in annihilating any of his supporters.


Off-topic:

Originally Posted by coba

Fukuda never said anything or gave any interview regarding that matters . I remembered that he never clarified some stuffs in GSD such as the history of SF and IJ, etc. Also, that answer (from the thread linked in your post) doesn't give you a definite answer and sounds more like speculative answer. Don't getm e wrong, I did suspect that Dullindal is behind the assasination, but they only gave us hints, not a definite proof.

You know what? I'm not sure who posted the original link to the interview that explained Durandal's role. I do recall that the original source was legit, and that many of the older posters should be able to recall it. Then again, I've never cared all that much about what was and wasn't said in the interviews, and, in any case, none of my arguments rely on them.

Originally Posted by coba

Well the definition of the flag ship is usually the ship where the highest rank commander of the ship. The highest commander of ZAFT is Dullindal and he is in Minerva twice: during ep 4 and ep 37 (Heaven base battle ).

Wrong. A flag ship is the vessel from which a flag officer commands a fleet or squadron. Also, note that since the status is denoted by the presence of the flag officer, it can (and does) change over the course of a battle. Since Durandal was a civilan leader, his presence cannot change the status of his vessel. The only time that Minerva could be considered the flag ship was when it actually gave commands to other vessels - basically when all of Talia's superior officers were killed in the Battle of Orb.

[coba]

They could establish that Durandal had motive, method and opportunity. None of these apply to any other faction; no one else even had the motive to eliminate Lacus. In any case, it's sort of ludicrous to charge the head of state of a crime in the middle of a full-blown war.

Of course. I don't deny that Dullindal has a motive and all the stuff. But they can't give any proof to others that he is the culprit. And no, it is not ridiculous to charge the head state of crime as long as they can prove it You can see the impact of Dullindal's campaign against Djibril by showing the proofs of all his crimes to all civilians.

I just pointed out the this had nothing to do with the reason they attacked Minerva.

Yeah I know. That's why I asked you of what basis AA can attack Minerva in ep 23 ? AA never declares ZAFT/Minerva as enemy. They are not part of Orb. If they want to stop Orb, why don't they stop it before Orb engages Minerva ? Minerva never did anything against AA at that time and Freedom suddenly blow their bow gun. How crazy is that.

While your premise is fairly solid, your reasoning is backwards; there is a lot of evidence that Durandal was the culprit

What is the proof that they can show to general people ? They suspect Dullindal is evil (assasination attempt, etc), but they can't prove it in front of the others. That is the problem. --> I am not talking about the audience since we all watched ep 13. Rather, I am talking about ZAFT civilians, earth civilians, ZAFT soldiers who don't know that the incident in ep 13 happens.

With all de respect, even toward the end of GSD, Dullindal has a lot of support from other nations. Just take an example of those people who are in the desert (ep 18). They still support Dullindal since he (ZAFT) helps their liberation and no one, I repeat no one broadcast something that shows hoe Dullindal is evil.

I'm not sure what your point is. What's the advantage Cagalli will gain in informing anyone else? It's not as if anyone was targeting them until the Angel Down operation anyways.

It doesn't clear up the status of AA. The reason is that if Cagalli broadcasted her speech that she is with AA, Juna couldn't claim that she is fake and thus, ordered Orb's military to attack AA in ep 23. Heck, she can even stop the battle in ep 23 and order the Orb military to pull back since she is the leader of Orb.

That isn't quite true. While Archangel wasn't officially commissioned until episode 46, it was unofficially an Orb warship. The most obvious indicator is that it was well known as a friendly according to the Orb central command FoF system (just like Freedom was).

Remmeber, the conversation in ep 14 implies AA is still considred as an unknown ship among Orb's military. Most of Orb soldiers knows it is AA, but it doesn't mean that AA is officially part of Orb military.If they were, the soldiers will mentioned AA's ID code. At that point, AA is a ship without any attachment toward any side. Orb and Zaft are in war, but AA wasn't since they are not part of Orb. The AA crew doesn't have rank in Orb military in ep 23 and there is no chain of command in AA at all. They only wear the uniforms. I can wear Canadian soldier uniform but I can't claim that I am part of Canadian army since I am not.

It's not the reason for Archangel's attack on Minerva; but as Durandal is established as their enemy, they were fully justified in annihilating any of his supporters.

Right, I am pretty sure that you won't blame Dullindal for using Requiem to target Orb then
Also, if AA consider ZAFT as enemy, they should declare war against them. However, they suddenly show up and blow Minerva's bow gun without saying anything toward Minerva (that's the reason why Talia is confused on their action and Athrun decides to go after them to clarify some stuff). This action already breaches the rule of engagement (just like Iraq invaded Kuwait).

I do recall that the original source was legit, and that many of the older posters should be able to recall it.

I am pretty sure it is not official or even from magazines. I regularly check this forum and other Gundam forums.

Since Durandal was a civilan leader, his presence cannot change the status of his vessel. The only time that Minerva could be considered the flag ship was when it actually gave commands to other vessels - basically when all of Talia's superior officers were killed in the Battle of Orb.

Actually, the ZAFT chairman can also act as ZAFT supreme commander (the highest rank in ZAFT military). That role is played by botrh Patrick Zala in Jachin Due and Dullindal in his "Death star". That's why I use the Heaven's base battle as the example since it is where Minerva truly becomes ZAFT's flag ship since Dullindal and all of his generals are on board on Minerva and thus, they give command to other vessels.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

Of course. I don't deny that Dullindal has a motive and all the stuff. But they can't give any proof to others that he is the culprit. And no, it is not ridiculous to charge the head state of crime as long as they can prove it You can see the impact of Dullindal's campaign against Djibril by showing the proofs of all his crimes to all civilians.

The accusation against Djibril was only effective because the EA was already losing the war, and because parts of Eurasia had already broken from the Alliance. If the EA was winning the war, it would have been ineffectual. A comparison to this would be trying to prosecute Hitler in post-Battle of France.

Originally Posted by coba

Yeah I know. That's why I asked you of what basis AA can attack Minerva in ep 23 ? AA never declares ZAFT/Minerva as enemy. They are not part of Orb. If they want to stop Orb, why don't they stop it before Orb engages Minerva ? Minerva never did anything against AA at that time and Freedom suddenly blow their bow gun. How crazy is that.

When someone points their guns at one's friends, one shouldn't hesitate in acting. As to why they didn't show up before then, it's likely that they were simply too far away or didn't feel ready to do so.

Originally Posted by coba

With all de respect, even toward the end of GSD, Dullindal has a lot of support from other nations. Just take an example of those people who are in the desert (ep 18). They still support Dullindal since he (ZAFT) helps their liberation and no one, I repeat no one broadcast something that shows hoe Dullindal is evil.

The rest of the world already had plenty of reason to doubt Durandal. However, he had already been forced to impose his Destiny Plan on the rest of the world, so little could have been accomplished in further accusing him. Besides, proof of something doesn't always equate to sufficient proof in a court of law. For example, it's rather obvious that the American government performed all sorts of despicable acts in the last few years - not least of which is lying about Iraq. However, being able to prosecute said government for such reasons is extremely unlikely.

Originally Posted by coba

It doesn't clear up the status of AA. The reason is that if Cagalli broadcasted her speech that she is with AA, Juna couldn't claim that she is fake and thus, ordered Orb's military to attack AA in ep 23. Heck, she can even stop the battle in ep 23 and order the Orb military to pull back since she is the leader of Orb.

How would this help them? The entire Orb fleet already knew that Cagalli was legit.

Originally Posted by coba

Remmeber, the conversation in ep 14 implies AA is still considred as an unknown ship among Orb's military. Most of Orb soldiers knows it is AA, but it doesn't mean that AA is officially part of Orb military.If they were, the soldiers will mentioned AA's ID code. At that point, AA is a ship without any attachment toward any side. Orb and Zaft are in war, but AA wasn't since they are not part of Orb. The AA crew doesn't have rank in Orb military in ep 23 and there is no chain of command in AA at all.

That isn't quite correct. There is a chain of command onboard Archangel - only Kira and Lacus were outside of it. Moreover, while Archangel was attached to the Orb military (this is obvious given that it was maintained with all its weapons and equipment fully functional), it was done so on an unofficial basis (so as to not stir up trouble with the EA).

Originally Posted by coba

They only wear the uniforms. I can wear Canadian soldier uniform but I can't claim that I am part of Canadian army since I am not.

For this analogy to work, it would have to be on board a military vessel widely known to be associated with the Canadian Maritime Command, with the head of said command on board, crewed completely by Canadian citizens, and with all of the rank structures in position. Now what would this vessel do if it came accross someone firing upon Canadian vessels? Heck, even if it was a civilian Canadian vessel, wouldn't it still do whatever it could to help?

[QUOTE=coba]Right, I am pretty sure that you won't blame Dullindal for using Requiem to target Orb then[QUOTE]
I don't. My only complaint is that the action isn't entirely proportionate to the threat.

Originally Posted by coba

Also, if AA consider ZAFT as enemy, they should declare war against them.

They already did - Orb was already at war with PLANT. Besides, even in the modern world, you don't see declarations of war very often, and it doesn't mean what you think it might. For example, the U.S. hasn't declared war against anyone since World War II.

Originally Posted by coba

Actually, the ZAFT chairman can also act as ZAFT supreme commander (the highest rank in ZAFT military). That role is played by botrh Patrick Zala in Jachin Due and Dullindal in his "Death star". That's why I use the Heaven's base battle as the example since it is where Minerva truly becomes ZAFT's flag ship since Dullindal and all of his generals are on board on Minerva and thus, they give command to other vessels.

It still wouldn't matter since a single ship by itself isn't a flag ship. The historical reason for the name "flag ship" is that it would use its flags to communicate to the rest of the fleet.

By the way, where was it stated that the Chairman is automatically the ZAFT supreme commander?

[coba]

The accusation against Djibril was only effective because the EA was already losing the war, and because parts of Eurasia had already broken from the Alliance. If the EA was winning the war, it would have been ineffectual. A comparison to this would be trying to prosecute Hitler in post-Battle of France.

Not really. Djibril is hit hard when Dullindal announces the Logos's existence. EA hasn't lost yet at that point. They still have Heaven's base, Lunar's base, and Requiem. However, it causes Djibril to lose some supports from other nations. A similar propaganda was used by both Brittain and US against Hitler after he succesfully captured France. Churchill and US claims that Hitler and his NAZI are evil and as the result, they manage to get a support from resistence in countries like France, Poland, Netherland, etc. In war, it is important to gain support from as many allies as possible. Even if they didn't manage to prosecute Hitler at that time, the allies managed to gain so many supports that leads to the downfall of Hitler.

When someone points their guns at one's friends, one shouldn't hesitate in acting..

It is not a valid reason whatsoever. In the real world, you can't live using this logic. We live in society governed by law, it is still a crime to kill someone just because he/she is going to kill your friend. Even in the milatry, there is a rule of engagement where you can't shoot someone else just because you suspect him (I think that's the reason why a lot of soldiers were killed by those suicide bombers).

As to why they didn't show up before then, it's likely that they were simply too far away or didn't feel ready to do so.

I don't really care what AA's reason is, it is a fact that they can't justify their action in shootinh Minerva's bow gun. If Minerva is the one who attack the Orb, then I can at least understand. However, Orb is the one who attack Minerva.

The rest of the world already had plenty of reason to doubt Durandal.

Who ? Only AF, Kingdom Scandanavia and Orb who are suspicious of Dullindal. Other countries including Eurasia supports him.

Besides, proof of something doesn't always equate to sufficient proof in a court of law. For example, it's rather obvious that the American government performed all sorts of despicable acts in the last few years - not least of which is lying about Iraq. However, being able to prosecute said government for such reasons is extremely unlikely.

Well you have to remember to arrest someone for his crime you have to have the proof first. For US government, they charge and punish the soldiers who committed the crimes. Also, wiht all those proofs on how US performed those despicable act, it cause most nations to go against them including French and Germany, their close ally.

How would this help them? The entire Orb fleet already knew that Cagalli was legit.

They know it, but they can't argue against Yuuna's claim. Why? Once again, they have no proof that it is the real Cagalli who gives a command. If Cagalli shows her face in front of the monbitor to those Orb's soldiers, even Yuuna can't argue anymore.

That isn't quite correct. There is a chain of command onboard Archangel - only Kira and Lacus were outside of it.

It is unofficial. They don't have any rank. They only use their old chain of command from EA.

Moreover, while Archangel was attached to the Orb military (this is obvious given that it was maintained with all its weapons and equipment fully functional), it was done so on an unofficial basis (so as to not stir up trouble with the EA).

Actually, the way I see it, they are not related to Orb Military. The one who maintains AA is Morgenrete (that's why Erica is there). Their dock is not Orb's miltary dock but rather it is owned by Morgenrete (sp?).

Now what would this vessel do if it came accross someone firing upon Canadian vessels? Heck, even if it was a civilian Canadian vessel, wouldn't it still do whatever it could to help?

Nope. It is not allowed in the rule of engagement. Civilian are not suppose to interfere with the war. Why? Because the soldiers aren't suppose to harm civilian and vice versa.

They already did - Orb was already at war with PLANT. Besides, even in the modern world, you don't see declarations of war very often, and it doesn't mean what you think it might. For example, the U.S. hasn't declared war against anyone since World War II.

Once again, AA is not part of Orb military. They have right after ep 45 when they officially becomes part of Orb's military, but not in ep 23. If you still insist on how AA is part of Orb's military, how come in ep 14 the Orb's tower refer them as "unknown", not with their identification code.
Also, FYI, US declared wars against North Vietnam, against China and USSR in Korean war, against Iraq in gulf war I, against Serbia in 2000.

It still wouldn't matter since a single ship by itself isn't a flag ship.

Officially, the term flag ship is no longer use in Navy. However, in general people either refer a ship as flag ship because it is commandedby the highest rank soldier or because it is their main battleship (e.g Bismarck).

By the way, where was it stated that the Chairman is automatically the ZAFT supreme commander?

In Seed, when Patrick Zala is in the Genesis. Also, you can definitely see how Dullindal acts as supreme command in his "Darth Vader" chair. After all, he is the only one who give all those commands and no one in ZAFT dares to go against his order.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

Not really. Djibril is hit hard when Dullindal announces the Logos's existence. EA hasn't lost yet at that point. They still have Heaven's base, Lunar's base, and Requiem. However, it causes Djibril to lose some supports from other nations.

When you're reduced to just a handful of bases and you're no longer capable of making any offensives, then you're on the cusp of losing outright. Everyone can see the writing on the wall, and no one wants to back a loser.

A similar propaganda was used by both Brittain and US against Hitler after he succesfully captured France. Churchill and US claims that Hitler and his NAZI are evil and as the result, they manage to get a support from resistence in countries like France, Poland, Netherland, etc. In war, it is important to gain support from as many allies as possible. Even if they didn't manage to prosecute Hitler at that time, the allies managed to gain so many supports that leads to the downfall of Hitler.

Incorrect: the resistance groups started up right after the Germans occupied those respective countries. People joined up because of the way their countries were treated; not because of some vague Allied accusation. What the Allies did was to give them material aid and training cadres. This is actually more true in the East than in Western Europe.

Originally Posted by coba

It is not a valid reason whatsoever. In the real world, you can't live using this logic. We live in society governed by law, it is still a crime to kill someone just because he/she is going to kill your friend. Even in the milatry, there is a rule of engagement where you can't shoot someone else just because you suspect him (I think that's the reason why a lot of soldiers were killed by those suicide bombers).

What do you mean by suspect? They were at full-blown war. And war is effectively the suspension of law between countries. There's nothing at all wrong with annihilating those who attack your friends.

Originally Posted by coba

I don't really care what AA's reason is, it is a fact that they can't justify their action in shootinh Minerva's bow gun. If Minerva is the one who attack the Orb, then I can at least understand. However, Orb is the one who attack Minerva.

When it's your friends' lives on the line, who started it isn't exactly the point.

Originally Posted by coba

Who ? Only AF, Kingdom Scandanavia and Orb who are suspicious of Dullindal. Other countries including Eurasia supports him.

In terms of prefering PLANT over the EA, quite a few countries would prefer PLANT. However, that doesn't mean that they supported Durandal's plans.

Originally Posted by coba

Well you have to remember to arrest someone for his crime you have to have the proof first. For US government, they charge and punish the soldiers who committed the crimes. Also, wiht all those proofs on how US performed those despicable act, it cause most nations to go against them including French and Germany, their close ally.

You're starting to see the point. There was no point in bringing up any accusations until Durandal was already defeated.

By the way, proof wasn't the reason why France and Germany (who weren't the Americans' closest allies) broke with the U.S. over Iraq. It was entirely a matter of proportional response - none of them felt that an invasion was a proper response.

Originally Posted by coba

They know it, but they can't argue against Yuuna's claim. Why? Once again, they have no proof that it is the real Cagalli who gives a command. If Cagalli shows her face in front of the monbitor to those Orb's soldiers, even Yuuna can't argue anymore.

Watch the show again. They all knew that it was Cagalli - Orb soldiers would literally say her name in the middle of battle, but Yuna had the command of the fleet. It's likely that they had no choice but to follow his orders.

Originally Posted by coba

It is unofficial. They don't have any rank. They only use their old chain of command from EA.

At the very least, they would be an irregular force. And they most certainly weren't using the old EA chain of command, especially since they weren't all from the EA to begin with. The common rank structure (and insignia, and uniforms, and everything else) was from the Orb military.

Originally Posted by coba

Actually, the way I see it, they are not related to Orb Military. The one who maintains AA is Morgenrete (that's why Erica is there). Their dock is not Orb's miltary dock but rather it is owned by Morgenrete (sp?).

Morgenrete is all but an Orb government entity, so it doesn't make all that much difference.

Originally Posted by coba

Nope. It is not allowed in the rule of engagement. Civilian are not suppose to interfere with the war. Why? Because the soldiers aren't suppose to harm civilian and vice versa.

When the vessel is commanded by a Canadian admiral for military purposes, and it's armed to the teeth? (Not to mention the things with the uniforms, ranks, etc.) Calling it a civilian is a big stretch. You seem to be under a very strange impression as to how the rules of war work and what they mean.

Originally Posted by coba

Once again, AA is not part of Orb military. <SNIP>
If you still insist on how AA is part of Orb's military, how come in ep 14 the Orb's tower refer them as "unknown", not with their identification code.

An unknown contact may simply mean that the FoF indicator was turned off. Your claim that Archangel isn't part of the military is particularly fruitless given that Cagalli's presence alone grants it that status.

Originally Posted by coba

Also, FYI, US declared wars against North Vietnam, against China and USSR in Korean war, against Iraq in gulf war I, against Serbia in 2000.

Nope - check your sources: no declarations of war after World War II. I'm sort of curious since I've come across this claim several times, why are you so sure that they declared war? The one about them declaring war against the USSR is particularly ludicrous. *

Originally Posted by coba

Officially, the term flag ship is no longer use in Navy. However, in general people either refer a ship as flag ship because it is commandedby the highest rank soldier or because it is their main battleship (e.g Bismarck).

If people truly are wrong in general about the term, doesn't it make sense to use it properly once you know what it really means? *
And if it's an outdated term, then why bother using it?

Originally Posted by coba

In Seed, when Patrick Zala is in the Genesis. Also, you can definitely see how Dullindal acts as supreme command in his "Darth Vader" chair. After all, he is the only one who give all those commands and no one in ZAFT dares to go against his order.

It's possible to give commands without an actual military rank. Patrick Zala is a very different case from Durandal because the former was the commander of ZAFT before he became Chairman. Presumably, he simply retained his command.


* Note that these aren't controversial positions, so there's absolutely no excuse for getting them wrong.

[coba]

When you're reduced to just a handful of bases and you're no longer capable of making any offensives, then you're on the cusp of losing outright. Everyone can see the writing on the wall, and no one wants to back a loser.

Not really, Djibril's downfall in Heaven Base is because he only has AF to back him up. Prior to Dullindal's speech about Logos, Djibril still has a lot of supports from other countries. After all, they should support him with how Stellar's Destroy almost completely annihilate Zaft's forces across Europe.

Incorrect: the resistance groups started up right after the Germans occupied those respective countries. People joined up because of the way their countries were treated; not because of some vague Allied accusation. What the Allies did was to give them material aid and training cadres. This is actually more true in the East than in Western Europe.

You are the incorrect one. I really like the topic on war and I read a lot of books related to that subject especially the WW II. Most of people doesn't dare to fight against Germany. In fact some thought that Nazi did the correct thing. That's why prior to Allies invasion on d-Day, they have to create a propaganda on how helping Nazi = helping evil. If not because of the propaganda, the D-Day advanced will not be as fast as the way it was. The similar thing also happens in Italy where initially, only few Italians were against Mussolini. However, they start to hear how bad Mussolini was and changed their mind.

What do you mean by suspect? They were at full-blown war. And war is effectively the suspension of law between countries. There's nothing at all wrong with annihilating those who attack your friends.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

Not really, Djibril's downfall in Heaven Base is because he only has AF to back him up. Prior to Dullindal's speech about Logos, Djibril still has a lot of supports from other countries. After all, they should support him with how Stellar's Destroy almost completely annihilate Zaft's forces across Europe.

The plan with Destroy sort of fell apart after it was blown into little bits. Other than that brief counterattack, the EA was retreating on pretty much all fronts: Europe, Africa, the Middle East, space, everywhere. That's sort of what losing means.


Off-topic:

Originally Posted by coba

You are the incorrect one. I really like the topic on war and I read a lot of books related to that subject especially the WW II. Most of people doesn't dare to fight against Germany. In fact some thought that Nazi did the correct thing. That's why prior to Allies invasion on d-Day, they have to create a propaganda on how helping Nazi = helping evil.

Prove it. You might want to start by what the Allies said to get the various resistance groups to start acting. By the way, to give you a hand, here's a list of the dates when the most influential groups started up:
Polish Home Army - formed 1942, with Free Polish fighting for the British since 1940
Yugoslav Partisans - formed 1941
Soviet Partisans - formed 1941
Greek Resistance - formed 1941
French Resistance - formed 1940

Overlord: June 6, 1944

Originally Posted by coba

If not because of the propaganda, the D-Day advanced will not be as fast as the way it was.

That doesn't seem correct. While the activity of the French Resistance certainly slowed the German counterattack down, they didn't really help the Allies advance. In fact, the Allies stalled in the period after D-Day - it wasn't until Operation Cobra that they actually managed to break out; and the French Resistance didn't seem to have much to do with it. The subsequent advance through France had more to do with the fact that the Germans retreated than anything else. What did you mean by that sentence? And what role does Allied propaganda have to do with it?

Originally Posted by coba

The similar thing also happens in Italy where initially, only few Italians were against Mussolini. However, they start to hear how bad Mussolini was and changed their mind.

That's untrue. The Italians didn't rise up until the Allied invasion had pretty much forced the collapse of the Italian military. It was Mussolini's weakness that gave them that opportunity. People simply do not need to be informed that they're being oppressed.

[coba]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The plan with Destroy sort of fell apart after it was blown into little bits. Other than that brief counterattack, the EA was retreating on pretty much all fronts: Europe, Africa, the Middle East, space, everywhere. That's sort of what losing means.


Off-topic:
Prove it. You might want to start by what the Allies said to get the various resistance groups to start acting. By the way, to give you a hand, here's a list of the dates when the most influential groups started up:
Polish Home Army - formed 1942, with Free Polish fighting for the British since 1940
Yugoslav Partisans - formed 1941
Soviet Partisans - formed 1941
Greek Resistance - formed 1941
French Resistance - formed 1940

Yes they already started the resistence, but they only works exclusively within their own region. US=led coallision manages to make the resistence "work" for them further by showing that US = good and Nazi = evil. p.s: I almost laughed reading one of the books since some of the interviews with former resistences imply that they start to think US = good is wrong

For Destroy, Logos (AF) is not losing yet. they still practically have lots of power. However, you can observe how with simple speech, Dullindal can gain supports even from the former EA.

That doesn't seem correct. While the activity of the French Resistance certainly slowed the German counterattack down, they didn't really help the Allies advance. In fact, the Allies stalled in the period after D-Day - it wasn't until Operation Cobra that they actually managed to break out; and the French Resistance didn't seem to have much to do with it. The subsequent advance through France had more to do with the fact that the Germans retreated than anything else. What did you mean by that sentence? And what role does Allied propaganda have to do with it?

Nope. One of the reason why Allies can succefully manage to push bakc Germany is because the resistance blew up the communication line. As the result, it is difficult for Germany to ask for back-up (the reserved panzers) and when they reach the command center, they are already too late since most of allies' tanks were already in shore.
With the propaganda, they manage not only to make the resistence work together with them, but also help them gaining sympathy from the civilians along the way (not only France but also other countires).

That's untrue. The Italians didn't rise up until the Allied invasion had pretty much forced the collapse of the Italian military. It was Mussolini's weakness that gave them that opportunity. People simply do not need to be informed that they're being oppressed

There are some mayor in the Italian cities/villages who first thought Mussolini's party tried to do a good thing for Italy. However, after finding the fact, they start to re-think some of their beliefs again.

What do you mean by suspect? They were at full-blown war. And war is effectively the suspension of law between countries. There's nothing at all wrong with annihilating those who attack your friends.

It is wrong because AA is not part of Orb.Minerva oly acts as self-defense. The analogy is simple: if you are in the middle one-on-one fight and suddenly there is someone else jump on board and start to hit you, can you accept it ?

In terms of prefering PLANT over the EA, quite a few countries would prefer PLANT. However, that doesn't mean that they supported Durandal's plans.

They support it. Watch ep 45/46/47 again. It is clear that only those three nations are against DP plan. The other nations are willing to support Dullindal's plan (by at least use it as a trial).

You're starting to see the point. There was no point in bringing up any accusations until Durandal was already defeated.

It is necessary if they have a solid proof. Why ? At least to gain supports from others who don't know despicable acts done by Dullindal. For example, when they shows that Meer is a fake Lacus, it cause commotions among ZAFT soldiers. I belive some of them even starts to re-think the idea that Dullindal is honest.

By the way, proof wasn't the reason why France and Germany (who weren't the Americans' closest allies) broke with the U.S. over Iraq. It was entirely a matter of proportional response - none of them felt that an invasion was a proper response.

US uses an excuse that Iraq]s invasion is part of war against terrorism. However, they can even present any proof that it is true. If US manages to show that their reason is valid, I bet some of their allies will support them. EVen in Canada (one of their closest allies), the PM ridicule the idea since he claimed US don't have any proof.

They all knew that it was Cagalli - Orb soldiers would literally say her name in the middle of battle, but Yuna had the command of the fleet. It's likely that they had no choice but to follow his orders

Cagalli is a leader of ORB so she can at least override Yuuna's order. If let say she can proof that she is the real one and inside the strike Rouge (e.g by showing her face, stepping out of the MS, etc), Yuuna's reasoning that she is the fake will not work. The problem is that everyone kbnows she is the real one, but they can't argue against Yuuna's accusition especially since Cagalli did nothing to prove that he is wrong. Do you get my point ?

You seem to be under a very strange impression as to how the rules of war work and what they mean.

Once again, that's why they put a strict rule of engagement because they surely don't want someone running around widly during the war.

An unknown contact may simply mean that the FoF indicator was turned off. Your claim that Archangel isn't part of the military is particularly fruitless given that Cagalli's presence alone grants it that status

AA never had ID code prior to ep 45. the ID code for AA is assigned in ep 45 (if not, what is the purpose of the ceremony in ep 45 ?). They are not part of Orb's military. Also, if they were part of military, why do they attack/disable Orb's MS -their own comrade and similarly, why does colonel Todoka-an experienced colonel - eventually decide to follow Yuuna's order to attack AA without using the argument that it is one of us or even communicate with AA's bridge and use Yuna's power to stop them ?
Regarding Cagalli's, do you imply that let say if George Bush (or let say US supreme commander) is on board of his yatch then his yatch will become part of US military ?

Morgenrete is all but an Orb government entity, so it doesn't make all that much difference.

Morgenroete is not 100% owned by ORB's governemtn You cna checnk gundamofficial if you don't believe me. I think that's also the reason why Orb's government put AA in Morgenroete's hangar since technically AA is still a renegade ship from AF at the end of GS so if it is in Morgenroete's property, government can always mask their involvement

Nope - check your sources: no declarations of war after World War II. I'm sort of curious since I've come across this claim several times, why are you so sure that they declared war? The one about them declaring war against the USSR is particularly ludicrous.

IT is not a declaration of war (does it still use anbymore after WW II ?) But US (or at least the coallision since US sometimes is part of it like in Korean war or Gulf War) usually put a warning and notification thatr they will join the war (I am 100%sure about it for example in gulf war, they send the notification 1 hour before the airstrike occurs and in Serbia 2000, they warn Milosevic to pull his army within a certain amount of time or NATO will start the assault).
For USSR, US coallision did put a warning that they will protect and go against anyone (North Korea, China)who dare to attack South Korea. USSR did support North Korea, but officially, they deny involvement in Korean war.

If people truly are wrong in general about the term, doesn't it make sense to use it properly once you know what it really means? *
And if it's an outdated term, then why bother using it?

You can find various definition of flag ship (you can try it finding it on websites). I know the root of why it is called flag ship and Minerva in several occasions can surely fill in the position.
Frankly speaking I like the sound of "flag ship" so I have a tendecy to use it especially since having to use Minerva over and over again sounds boring

It's possible to give commands without an actual military rank. Patrick Zala is a very different case from Durandal because the former was the commander of ZAFT before he became Chairman. Presumably, he simply retained his command.

It is not necessarily true. Some nations adopt unofficial rule that the head os the nation = supreme commander. However, others are not. If I am not mistaken, Canada is one of the countries that the PM or the head of the nation (the Queen) doesn't have significant power in military. For Patrick Zala, he used to be a defence minister. Someone replace him after Zala was promoted to chairman. I think one of the reaosn he doesn't really like sigel Clyne is because he could overrule Zala's decision when he was still a chairman.

p.s: I won't argue futher since I will go for holiday this evening

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

For Destroy, Logos (AF) is not losing yet. they still practically have lots of power. However, you can observe how with simple speech, Dullindal can gain supports even from the former EA.

Having lots of power != not losing the war. Germany had plenty of power in 1944, but they were certainly losing the war, just like they were in 1918, or the CSA in 1864, or France in 1813, and so on.

Losing the war is whenever a side has an increasingly small chance of winning. After the loss of Destroy, the only prospect the EA had of winning was REQUIEM. However, that was a secret project, so everyone else would assume that they were losing (and would be right about it).

Originally Posted by coba

Minerva oly acts as self-defense. The analogy is simple: if you are in the middle one-on-one fight and suddenly there is someone else jump on board and start to hit you, can you accept it ?

It's not a one-on-one fight, it's more akin to a gun battle. Who the instigator is is far less important than the fact that their countrymen were threatened. A war is not at all analogous to a street fight.

Originally Posted by coba

Cagalli is a leader of ORB so she can at least override Yuuna's order. If let say she can proof that she is the real one and inside the strike Rouge (e.g by showing her face, stepping out of the MS, etc), Yuuna's reasoning that she is the fake will not work. The problem is that everyone kbnows she is the real one, but they can't argue against Yuuna's accusition especially since Cagalli did nothing to prove that he is wrong. Do you get my point ?

She tried, and they didn't listen to her. Basically, there were two options at that point: either stop pressing Yuna, or instigate a civil war against the Seirans.

Originally Posted by coba

Once again, that's why they put a strict rule of engagement because they surely don't want someone running around widly during the war.

Wrong. Rules of engagement only apply to your own troops, typically so that they wouldn't involve killing people accidentally. Please check on what your terms mean before posting them.

Originally Posted by coba

Regarding Cagalli's, do you imply that let say if George Bush (or let say US supreme commander) is on board of his yatch then his yatch will become part of US military ?

If it's commandeered for a military purpose, absolutely. It's actually even stronger in Cagalli's favor: while Bush is technically the commander in chief, he's still a civilian, and thus doesn't really get involved in lower level military activities. Cagalli, on the other hand, is a soldier as well as a political leader, so her word here would be that much stronger.

Originally Posted by coba

Morgenroete is not 100% owned by ORB's governemtn You cna checnk gundamofficial if you don't believe me. I think that's also the reason why Orb's government put AA in Morgenroete's hangar since technically AA is still a renegade ship from AF at the end of GS so if it is in Morgenroete's property, government can always mask their involvement

So? I never claimed that Morgenroete is 100% owned. However, Orb has never been unwilling to house their high-end military equipment in Morgenroete facilities, so I'm not sure how it's supposed to help your case.

Originally Posted by coba

It is not necessarily true. Some nations adopt unofficial rule that the head os the nation = supreme commander. However, others are not. If I am not mistaken, Canada is one of the countries that the PM or the head of the nation (the Queen) doesn't have significant power in military. For Patrick Zala, he used to be a defence minister. Someone replace him after Zala was promoted to chairman. I think one of the reaosn he doesn't really like sigel Clyne is because he could overrule Zala's decision when he was still a chairman.

What isn't necessarily true? Since I claimed that something is possible; obviously, there's going to be a chance that it isn't true, so what's the point of adding that phrase?

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with the Canadian analogy, but Britain uses the same political system that Canada does; and Churchill still wielded enormous military power in World War II; ditto for Lloyd George in World War I (to the extent of purposefully witholding divisions from his field commanders).

Patrick Zala still wore his military uniform after becoming Chairman, so I would assume that he maintained his military position. Now, the question is whether there's anything to indicate that some else took over his former position, and whether there's any proof that the Chairman is also the automatic supreme commander of ZAFT.



History and current affairs lesson:

Originally Posted by coba

Yes they already started the resistence, but they only works exclusively within their own region. US=led coallision manages to make the resistence "work" for them further by showing that US = good and Nazi = evil. p.s: I almost laughed reading one of the books since some of the interviews with former resistences imply that they start to think US = good is wrong

I'm still not seeing any evidence that the resistance movements acted purely because of Allied propaganda. Besides, you're attributing this to the wrong country in any case - it was the British that did most of the work in the West, and the Soviets in the East (Poland was split between the two). The Americans were the junior partners in this endeavour.

Originally Posted by coba

Nope. One of the reason why Allies can succefully manage to push bakc Germany is because the resistance blew up the communication line. As the result, it is difficult for Germany to ask for back-up (the reserved panzers) and when they reach the command center, they are already too late since most of allies' tanks were already in shore.

As I said, it disrupted the German counterattack.

Originally Posted by coba

With the propaganda, they manage not only to make the resistence work together with them, but also help them gaining sympathy from the civilians along the way (not only France but also other countires).

This isn't called propaganda; it's called coordination. Again, the French didn't exactly need the Allies to inform them that they were being oppressed by the German Occupation.

Originally Posted by coba

There are some mayor in the Italian cities/villages who first thought Mussolini's party tried to do a good thing for Italy. However, after finding the fact, they start to re-think some of their beliefs again.

Allied propaganda was broadcast to Italy starting in 1940, but why do you think that they never did anything about it until 1944?

Originally Posted by coba

US uses an excuse that Iraq]s invasion is part of war against terrorism. However, they can even present any proof that it is true. If US manages to show that their reason is valid, I bet some of their allies will support them. EVen in Canada (one of their closest allies), the PM ridicule the idea since he claimed US don't have any proof.

Please post the actual facts of the situation. They only used that excuse for their own people. The one the Americans used for the rest of the world was that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction in contravention of the UN mandate. And in fact, Prime Minister Jean Chretien came out and said that the Americans did have compelling evidence to prove their case. He still didn't care, because he said that it still wasn't sufficient justification for an invasion - instead, Canada tried to extend the UN weapons inspection program.

Originally Posted by coba

IT is not a declaration of war (does it still use anbymore after WW II ?) But US (or at least the coallision since US sometimes is part of it like in Korean war or Gulf War) usually put a warning and notification thatr they will join the war (I am 100%sure about it for example in gulf war, they send the notification 1 hour before the airstrike occurs and in Serbia 2000, they warn Milosevic to pull his army within a certain amount of time or NATO will start the assault).
For USSR, US coallision did put a warning that they will protect and go against anyone (North Korea, China)who dare to attack South Korea. USSR did support North Korea, but officially, they deny involvement in Korean war.

Of course they still use it. A declaration of war is the ultimate weapon in the American diplomatic arsenal - moreover, it's one that's only allowed by a joint Congressional vote. Why would you imagine that it isn't used any more? Giving someone notification that you're going to attack them does not amount to the same thing at all.

Originally Posted by coba

You can find various definition of flag ship (you can try it finding it on websites). I know the root of why it is called flag ship and Minerva in several occasions can surely fill in the position.
Frankly speaking I like the sound of "flag ship" so I have a tendecy to use it especially since having to use Minerva over and over again sounds boring

So you still insist on using incorrect terms... Meh, it doesn't speak very well for your debating tactics.

[coba]

Having lots of power != not losing the war. Germany had plenty of power in 1944, but they were certainly losing the war, just like they were in 1918, or the CSA in 1864, or France in 1813, and so on.

Losing the war is whenever a side has an increasingly small chance of winning. After the loss of Destroy, the only prospect the EA had of winning was REQUIEM. However, that was a secret project, so everyone else would assume that they were losing (and would be right about it).

Put your fact together. Germany already lost their air power across Europe. That's the main reason why they can't stop the D-Day invasion. It is way different from Djibril. He still has his main base with 5 Destroys who can easily wipe out the entire ZAFT MS. In fact, we can all agree that ZAFT losses the battle of Orb, but most people still believe that Dullindal is good while Orb (thanks to the Seirans) is the supoorter of Logos. In the end, they still support the DP even though Orb -who just defeat ZAFT - prepares to go against Dullindal.

It's not a one-on-one fight, it's more akin to a gun battle. Who the instigator is is far less important than the fact that their countrymen were threatened. A war is not at all analogous to a street fight.

Still you don't want to get hit by someone who is not suppose to involve in the battle.

She tried, and they didn't listen to her. Basically, there were two options at that point: either stop pressing Yuna, or instigate a civil war against the Seirans

Of course because she only use loud speaker to command them (which is why Yuuna can claim that she is a fake). If she went out of the Strike Rouge and shows her face to all and sadi "Iam Cagalli Yulla Attha and I am the leader of Orb. I command you to withdraw from battlefield", Yuuna's accusition will not work and Colonel Todoka will have to follow her order since she is still the leader of Orb.
Do you get it now ?

Wrong. Rules of engagement only apply to your own troops, typically so that they wouldn't involve killing people accidentally. Please check on what your terms mean before posting them.

Wrong again. My uncle is a colonel in South East army. It is clearly stated that they should get the civilians to follow their order. In other word, they expect civilians to also engage the unritten rule. The purpose is to protect the civilians as well as your own soldiers. I am pretty sure that the rules should be more or less the same everywhere.

If it's commandeered for a military purpose, absolutely.

Yes, if it is listed as part of your military. AA is not part of Orbn's military. It is not a ship owned by Orb's military and is not even listed in their inventories at that moment. They don't represent Orb. That's why Yuuna uses that excuse to issue the order to attack AA.

However, Orb has never been unwilling to house their high-end military equipment in Morgenroete facilities, so I'm not sure how it's supposed to help your case.

Yes, that's why I said it is kinda weird if AA is part of Orb's military, why they have to hide and get back to Morgenroete facilities in ep 36? After all, as you said, Cagalli is a soldier as well as a political leader so coudl easily claim that she wants to get on board of Orb's ship by her own free will and I think it is her right to do so.

Patrick Zala still wore his military uniform after becoming Chairman, so I would assume that he maintained his military position.

If I am not mistaken, his position in defence military is replaced by someone who shot him.

Now, the question is whether there's anything to indicate that some else took over his former position, and whether there's any proof that the Chairman is also the automatic supreme commander of ZAFT.

Also, we all know that Dullindal isn't a former military commander. However, we can see how he still has enourmous power. Frankly speaking, there is officially no position of supreme commander in ZAFT. However, in the practice by both Zala and Dullindal act like it since we all know that they heavly involve in military bussiness and strategies(e.g: Zala involved in the creation of genesis while Dullindal is the onw who create the mobile fortress).

Besides, you're attributing this to the wrong country in any case - it was the British that did most of the work in the West, and the Soviets in the East (Poland was split between the two). The Americans were the junior partners in this endeavour.

Well it is quite simple. Those propaganda tries to get sympathy from people in their respected countries. Let me just take another sinmple example from my home country. Prior to Japan invasion to SE Asia, they use a propaganda that they are a "big brother" of people in the SE Asia countries. as the result, the Japanese gained many support and even managed to make the resistance work together with them in defeating the Netherland.

As I said, it disrupted the German counterattack

Yes, but that's one of the most important things. It buys a lot of time for the allies to land their heavy equipments and vehicles.

Allied propaganda was broadcast to Italy starting in 1940, but why do you think that they never did anything about it until 1944?

Why? It is because the allies' power mostly came from US, Canada and UK. US only declared the war against Germany and Italy in 1941 and 1942. After that, they still have another battles like in africa and Pasific that they have to fight. Also, it takes time to prepare for the amphibian invasion.

The one the Americans used for the rest of the world was that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction in contravention of the UN mandate. And in fact, Prime Minister Jean Chretien came out and said that the Americans did have compelling evidence to prove their case. He still didn't care, because he said that it still wasn't sufficient justification for an invasion - instead, Canada tried to extend the UN weapons inspection program.

That's their initial reasoning. After they captured Saddam and prove that there is no WMD, they claim it is time to rebuild Iraq under democracy and they need to act as a security in order for them to basically annihilate all terrorist from Iraq. Chretien didn't support US since he hates Bush. While the next PM Paul Martin consider that the idea of Iraq war = war against terrorism is ridiculous. Similarly, Harper initially argued the same thing. However, because of the so called "threat of wood embargo", he starts to "open" his mind.

Of course they still use it. A declaration of war is the ultimate weapon in the American diplomatic arsenal - moreover, it's one that's only allowed by a joint Congressional vote. Why would you imagine that it isn't used any more? Giving someone notification that you're going to attack them does not amount to the same thing at all.

Although they no longer issue the declaration of war, the United States has engaged in extended military engagements that, while not formally declared wars, were explicitly authorized by Congress, short of a formal declaration of war. THey use it to inform US involvement in the wars after WW II.
Also, from my uncle's explanation, there is unwritten rule that if you want to get involve into the war, you have to make sure that the opponents at least get a confirmation that you are part of the war.

So you still insist on using incorrect terms... Meh, it doesn't speak very well for your debating tactics.

Like I said before, it is not an incorrect term. There are occasion where Minerva truly act as flag ship.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

Put your fact together. Germany already lost their air power across Europe. That's the main reason why they can't stop the D-Day invasion. It is way different from Djibril. He still has his main base with 5 Destroys who can easily wipe out the entire ZAFT MS. In fact, we can all agree that ZAFT losses the battle of Orb, but most people still believe that Dullindal is good while Orb (thanks to the Seirans) is the supoorter of Logos. In the end, they still support the DP even though Orb -who just defeat ZAFT - prepares to go against Dullindal.

German strength in a less important military arm is irrelevant when it comes to whether they had a great deal of military power or not. Besides, they never had very much naval power, but that didn't keep them from being strong. Moreover, even if they were weaker than the Allies, the Germans still had considerable strength.

Next, the main reasons why the Germans couldn't stop Operation Overlord, in order of importance, were:
1. A lack of naval strength.
2. Rommel's strategic focus in trying to stop the Allies on the beaches rather than by using armored reserves to push them off.
3. The slowness of the German response.
4. A lack of air supremacy.
The effectiveness of air power in World War II is generally vastly overstated.

If we were to extend the analogy, at the beginning of 1944, Germany still possess all of their Western territories, they possessed territory in the East beyond their 1941 borders, their military production had finally peaked, their Tiger and Panther supertanks, and they still had most of their best combat formations. And they were still losing. And by a large margin to boot.

Likewise, nothing that you posted about the EA indicates that they weren't losing the war. This has less to do with "how much military force" a side has than it does with "what can be done" with that force. As I stated earlier, they were on the retreat on all fronts; hence they were losing. Please try addressing my actual points.

Originally Posted by coba

Still you don't want to get hit by someone who is not suppose to involve in the battle.

You don't want to get hit by someone who is supposed to be involved in the battle either, so what's your point?

Originally Posted by coba

Of course because she only use loud speaker to command them (which is why Yuuna can claim that she is a fake). If she went out of the Strike Rouge and shows her face to all and sadi "Iam Cagalli Yulla Attha and I am the leader of Orb. I command you to withdraw from battlefield", Yuuna's accusition will not work and Colonel Todoka will have to follow her order since she is still the leader of Orb.
Do you get it now ?

Your logic is faulty. The Orb troops knew fully well that it was Cagalli already - what difference would it make if they saw her face?

Originally Posted by coba

Wrong again. My uncle is a colonel in South East army. It is clearly stated that they should get the civilians to follow their order. In other word, they expect civilians to also engage the unritten rule. The purpose is to protect the civilians as well as your own soldiers. I am pretty sure that the rules should be more or less the same everywhere.

Where is it so clearly stated? Do you have any proof for your assertion? Please note that an appeal to authority does not constitute proof of any sort.

The reality is that rules of engagement are an example of general orders. Unless the Orb military specifically ordered its military vessels to not attack ZAFT vessels, your argument is null and void. Actually, it's null and void anyways since Cagalli easily has the authority to countermand any rule of engagement (or any other military order for that matter).

Originally Posted by coba

Yes, if it is listed as part of your military. AA is not part of Orbn's military. It is not a ship owned by Orb's military and is not even listed in their inventories at that moment. They don't represent Orb. That's why Yuuna uses that excuse to issue the order to attack AA.

The ship doesn't have to be owned by Orb's military as long as a military leader commandeers it for military purposes to qualify as a military vessel. This has been done throughout the course of military history, so I'm not sure why you believe otherwise.

In this case, the above argument isn't really necessary since you've offered no evidence to argue that Archangel isn't an Orb military vessel.

Originally Posted by coba

Yes, that's why I said it is kinda weird if AA is part of Orb's military, why they have to hide and get back to Morgenroete facilities in ep 36? After all, as you said, Cagalli is a soldier as well as a political leader so coudl easily claim that she wants to get on board of Orb's ship by her own free will and I think it is her right to do so.

Why would it be wierd? There's no evidence that they're Morgenrete facilities, but even if they were, that's still par for course. Besides, why wouldn't they use facilities that were designed for Archangel, particularly ones that the Seirans' spies didn't have access to? Did you really think that they'd just waltz into the main Orb base?



Off-topic:

Originally Posted by coba

Well it is quite simple. Those propaganda tries to get sympathy from people in their respected countries. Let me just take another sinmple example from my home country. Prior to Japan invasion to SE Asia, they use a propaganda that they are a "big brother" of people in the SE Asia countries. as the result, the Japanese gained many support and even managed to make the resistance work together with them in defeating the Netherland.

Nobody in Southeast Asia bought the Japanese argument for more than a second. The people of the Dutch East Indies hated the Dutch to begin with, and that's where the resistance stemmed from. Ditto for Vietnam. They sure as heck didn't need anybody to remind them that they were being oppressed. If you to show that they did, then you're going to have to give me a bit more details.

Originally Posted by coba

Yes, but that's one of the most important things. It buys a lot of time for the allies to land their heavy equipments and vehicles.

"That doesn't seem correct. While the activity of the French Resistance certainly slowed the German counterattack down, they didn't really help the Allies advance. In fact, the Allies stalled in the period after D-Day - it wasn't until Operation Cobra that they actually managed to break out; and the French Resistance didn't seem to have much to do with it. The subsequent advance through France had more to do with the fact that the Germans retreated than anything else."

I'm not not trying to argue that the French Resistance didn't help the Allies; I'm merely correcting you when you tried to claim that it helped them breakout of the beachhead. I'm curious as to why you thought that it was incorrect.
Have you conceded on the point about propaganda?

Originally Posted by coba

Why? It is because the allies' power mostly came from US, Canada and UK. US only declared the war against Germany and Italy in 1941 and 1942. After that, they still have another battles like in africa and Pasific that they have to fight. Also, it takes time to prepare for the amphibian invasion.

"The similar thing also happens in Italy where initially, only few Italians were against Mussolini. However, they start to hear how bad Mussolini was and changed their mind."
But you originally tried to argue that they did so purely because of propaganda. Are you changing the story to the Italians rising against the Fascists because the Allies were now the stronger force?

Originally Posted by coba

That's their initial reasoning. After they captured Saddam and prove that there is no WMD, they claim it is time to rebuild Iraq under democracy and they need to act as a security in order for them to basically annihilate all terrorist from Iraq. Chretien didn't support US since he hates Bush. While the next PM Paul Martin consider that the idea of Iraq war = war against terrorism is ridiculous. Similarly, Harper initially argued the same thing. However, because of the so called "threat of wood embargo", he starts to "open" his mind.

I'm not sure how any of this is supposed to support your original point. I believe that it was "If US manages to show that their reason is valid, I bet some of their allies will support them." The fact is that many countries initially believed the American claims, and they still refused to participate.

Originally Posted by coba

Although they no longer issue the declaration of war, the United States has engaged in extended military engagements that, while not formally declared wars, were explicitly authorized by Congress, short of a formal declaration of war. THey use it to inform US involvement in the wars after WW II.
Also, from my uncle's explanation, there is unwritten rule that if you want to get involve into the war, you have to make sure that the opponents at least get a confirmation that you are part of the war.

How exactly does this support your argument that you have to give a declaration of war? Note that a nation giving the warning that they're planning to attack is not a declaration of war - it's just a threat. Finally, what form should this declaration of war entail?

Originally Posted by coba

Like I said before, it is not an incorrect term. There are occasion where Minerva truly act as flag ship.

If you know what you're talking about, then you're already aware that the flag ship designation is a temporary one. A vessel can only be considered a flag ship if it actually has a flag officer on board. This happened exactly two times for Minerva - during the battles of Heaven's Base and Orb. At all other times, calling Minerva a flag ship is incorrect.

Originally Posted by coba

Frankly speaking, there is officially no position of supreme commander in ZAFT.

Thanks for finally answering my original question "By the way, where was it stated that the Chairman is automatically the ZAFT supreme commander?" I was only interested in whether it was an official position or not.

Originally Posted by coba

If I am not mistaken, his position in defence military is replaced by someone who shot him.

What makes you think that? The guy who shot him wore a green uniform, while Patrick Zala wore a purple one.

[coba]

2. Rommel's strategic focus in trying to stop the Allies on the beaches rather than by using armored reserves to push them off.

It is not entirely Rommel's fault. He already asked help to use the reserved panzers and tank. Unfortunately, Hitler was still asleep at that time and none of his generals dare to wake him up or give permission. Basically, Rommel didn't have any of the armored reserves when he needed them. In fact, some experts argue that if the panzer reserves were sent, Germany could at least prolong their resistances by at least a year.

4. A lack of air supremacy.
The effectiveness of air power in World War II is generally vastly overstated.

It is only true for the aerial bombing. Some experts mentioned that if Germany still held the air supremacy across Europe, they can use the fighter to target the marching soldiers. Since the allies that hold the supremacy, they in turn used their fighter to attack the Germany soldiers sent for help purposes.

Likewise, nothing that you posted about the EA indicates that they weren't losing the war. This has less to do with "how much military force" a side has than it does with "what can be done" with that force. As I stated earlier, they were on the retreat on all fronts; hence they were losing. Please try addressing my actual points.

Of course, but it also doesn't show that EA will surely loss. If it does, Seiran will not shelter Djibril's at Orb. This is where Dullindal is a genious. He manages to make as if he is a saviour for mankinds (both natural and coordinator). You can even observe how people still think that he is their saviour even when he already introduced the DP and did some questionable stuff (e.g use the fake Meer, etc). He can even persuade other counsil members. This shows how propaganda can change the tide of the war.

You don't want to get hit by someone who is supposed to be involved in the battle either, so what's your point?

At least you already know that they are your enemy abnd you will retaliate back. Did you watch ep 23 ? You can see how confused Minerva's crews are ? I will piss off if some unknown sides suddenly show up, shoot my ship, kill the crews and leave.

The Orb troops knew fully well that it was Cagalli already - what difference would it make if they saw her face?

They can't rebuke Yuuna's accusition that the pilot of Strike Rouge is Cagalli. If Cagalli shows them that she is the real one, it means Yuuna accusition is wrong. Do you get it now ?

Where is it so clearly stated? Do you have any proof for your assertion? Please note that an appeal to authority does not constitute proof of any sort.

It is up to you if you don't believe me. You don't even know what rules of engagement so don't act as if you know it.

The reality is that rules of engagement are an example of general orders. Unless the Orb military specifically ordered its military vessels to not attack ZAFT vessels, your argument is null and void. Actually, it's null and void anyways since Cagalli easily has the authority to countermand any rule of engagement (or any other military order for that matter).

Well the basic rule of engagement in the real world should apply for all military. Example of the basic unwritten rule is that militarry personnel from one country are not suppose to attack military personnel from other countries or invade other country's territory if the two countries are not in conflict. It exists to prevent something like Iraq's sudden invasion to Kuwait happens. Except if you think Saddam's action is correct at that time, I am pretty sure you should know how important it is for all military personnels and world leaders to abide it.

The ship doesn't have to be owned by Orb's military as long as a military leader commandeers it for military purposes to qualify as a military vessel. This has been done throughout the course of military history, so I'm not sure why you believe otherwise.

Do you know that if the ships is used for military purposes then it should be at least assigned a ID code ? I don't know where do you come from, but generally it applies for all modern military around the world.

In this case, the above argument isn't really necessary since you've offered no evidence to argue that Archangel isn't an Orb military vessel.

Okay I will ask you a simple question: what show AA as part of Orb's Military prior to ep 45? It doesn't have ID in Orb's command center, the temporary leader of Orb (Yuuna) doesn't admit it is part of Orb's military, they hold ceremony to announce that AA is part of Orb's military (if they are used to be part of Orb's, what's the point of celebration ?)

Besides, why wouldn't they use facilities that were designed for Archangel, particularly ones that the Seirans' spies didn't have access to? Did you really think that they'd just waltz into the main Orb base?

Well you are the one who claim that AA is part of Orb's military. If that is the case, why do they have to hide such ship in ep 13 ? You also brag about Cagalli's existence in the ship. If that's the case, then A shouldn't worry about going to Orb's base. After all, the leader of Orb is on board of Orb's ship. There is nothing wrong with that.

Nobody in Southeast Asia bought the Japanese argument for more than a second. The people of the Dutch East Indies hated the Dutch to begin with, and that's where the resistance stemmed from.

BS. I am from that country. I am pretty sure I know the history of my country better than you.

"That doesn't seem correct. While the activity of the French Resistance certainly slowed the German counterattack down, they didn't really help the Allies advance.

You are the one who listed ho slow Germany's responses were. Of course they were slow, since the communication line across France was cut (they don't have handphone yet) . Who help them blew up the line ? The resistance.

Have you conceded on the point about propaganda?

Sure. I read a book about how some resistants think the the Brittain (allies) basically double-crossed them in the previous years. It makes them not wanting to work together with the allies especially since they think that US will treat them in similar way. It was quite difficult to convince them. Some of them change their minds after Jean Mollin (and BBC's reports over and over again) conviced them that as bad as US were, the NAZI were way worse.

But you originally tried to argue that they did so purely because of propaganda. Are you changing the story to the Italians rising against the Fascists because the Allies were now the stronger force?

No, because some of them start to change their mind. I told you before that some Italians thought the Facist party did the correct thing for Italy. However, after they heard a lot from allies soldiers/newspapers/ propaganda, they started to change their minds.

I believe that it was "If US manages to show that their reason is valid, I bet some of their allies will support them." The fact is that many countries initially believed the American claims, and they still refused to participate.

It is simple, like Steven Harper said: Canada involves in Afgan's war because they believe it is really for the sake against terrorism, however, in Iraq, they are not sure at all whether it is part of war against communism or not.

At all other times, calling Minerva a flag ship is incorrect.

I notice it. But it doesn't mean that I am incorrect too. There are truly several occasion where Minerva is Zaft flag ship.

I was only interested in whether it was an official position or not.

For your further info, I think when Patrick Zala discuss things with Raww La Cruesette (around ep 43 and up), he does imply that he has a full command of the entire ZAFT since he is the chairman. Also, when he has conversation with Siegel Clyne, Zala implies that he doesn't like it how Siegel always interfer with his decisions as defense ministry.

What makes you think that? The guy who shot him wore a green uniform, while Patrick Zala wore a purple one

The guy who shoots him wearing a purple uniform.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

Of course, but it also doesn't show that EA will surely loss. If it does, Seiran will not shelter Djibril's at Orb. This is where Dullindal is a genious. He manages to make as if he is a saviour for mankinds (both natural and coordinator). You can even observe how people still think that he is their saviour even when he already introduced the DP and did some questionable stuff (e.g use the fake Meer, etc). He can even persuade other counsil members. This shows how propaganda can change the tide of the war.

Sure it means that the EA was going to lose. If you can't hurt your enemy while your enemy can hurt you, then you're going to lose. And why couldn't the Seirans make a mistake in sheltering Djibril? It would hardly be their first mistake in the war.

How many people actually said positive things about the Destiny Plan?

Originally Posted by coba

At least you already know that they are your enemy abnd you will retaliate back. Did you watch ep 23 ? You can see how confused Minerva's crews are ? I will piss off if some unknown sides suddenly show up, shoot my ship, kill the crews and leave.

That was their own fault for being caught off-guard. That's what they get for not paying attention. You do realize that hurting your enemies' feelings in a war isn't really much of a concern, don't you? And that shooting up ships and killing their crews is sort of the point, right?

Originally Posted by coba

They can't rebuke Yuuna's accusition that the pilot of Strike Rouge is Cagalli. If Cagalli shows them that she is the real one, it means Yuuna accusition is wrong. Do you get it now ?

Todaka, Baba, et al. all acknowledged that it was Cagalli, and all the soldiers knew exactly who the pilot of Strike Rouge was, and it still didn't matter.

Originally Posted by coba

It is up to you if you don't believe me. You don't even know what rules of engagement so don't act as if you know it.
Well the basic rule of engagement in the real world should apply for all military. Example of the basic unwritten rule is that militarry personnel from one country are not suppose to attack military personnel from other countries or invade other country's territory if the two countries are not in conflict. It exists to prevent something like Iraq's sudden invasion to Kuwait happens. Except if you think Saddam's action is correct at that time, I am pretty sure you should know how important it is for all military personnels and world leaders to abide it.

A rule of engagement isn't an unwritten rule at all, so it doesn't really look like you know what you're talking about. Rules of engagement are different for every single military, and they can and do use totally different ones in different conflict. In any case, rules of engagement are spelled out in very certain terms, "Obey, or be court-martialled".

Another important thing is they can change at the drop of a hat. Cagalli was on board Archangel, so she literally could change the rules of engagement whenever it suited her.

Originally Posted by coba

Do you know that if the ships is used for military purposes then it should be at least assigned a ID code ? I don't know where do you come from, but generally it applies for all modern military around the world.

An ID isn't necessary in all cases. Even completely unarmed civilian vessels can be commandeered for military purposes.

Originally Posted by coba

Okay I will ask you a simple question: what show AA as part of Orb's Military prior to ep 45? It doesn't have ID in Orb's command center, the temporary leader of Orb (Yuuna) doesn't admit it is part of Orb's military, they hold ceremony to announce that AA is part of Orb's military (if they are used to be part of Orb's, what's the point of celebration ?)

The fact that Cagalli was in charge of Archangel is sufficient proof by itself. The bit with the uniforms and stuff is sort of a giveaway as well.

What they did in episode 45 was to officially commission Archangel, to assign it to a fleet, and to outline the chain of command.

Originally Posted by coba

Well you are the one who claim that AA is part of Orb's military. If that is the case, why do they have to hide such ship in ep 13 ? You also brag about Cagalli's existence in the ship. If that's the case, then A shouldn't worry about going to Orb's base. After all, the leader of Orb is on board of Orb's ship. There is nothing wrong with that.

They hid the vessel prior to the show to ease relations with the EA. It's exactly the same reason why Murrue and the others were given assumed identities.

Cagalli may be technically the Representative of Orb, but the Seirans had usurped her power - this part is portrayed rather explicitly in the show. Obviously, she couldn't just sail into an Orb harbour until she managed to regain it. There's a big difference between technically having the authority to do something and actually possessing the power to back up that authority.



Off-topic:

Originally Posted by coba

It is not entirely Rommel's fault. He already asked help to use the reserved panzers and tank. Unfortunately, Hitler was still asleep at that time and none of his generals dare to wake him up or give permission. Basically, Rommel didn't have any of the armored reserves when he needed them. In fact, some experts argue that if the panzer reserves were sent, Germany could at least prolong their resistances by at least a year.

That's what I meant by "the slowness of the German response". And if Rommel had gone for more centralized Panzer divisions, then this problem would have been less devastating.

Originally Posted by coba

It is only true for the aerial bombing. Some experts mentioned that if Germany still held the air supremacy across Europe, they can use the fighter to target the marching soldiers. Since the allies that hold the supremacy, they in turn used their fighter to attack the Germany soldiers sent for help purposes.

Those "experts" are wrong. There's no data to suggest that tactical aircraft were ever very effective at strafing marching troops. Air power in World War II Europe was useful, but never decisive.

Originally Posted by coba

You are the one who listed ho slow Germany's responses were. Of course they were slow, since the communication line across France was cut (they don't have handphone yet) . Who help them blew up the line ? The resistance.

I know. In fact, that's exactly what I've been saying for the last few posts. Heck, I even reposted what I said earlier just in case you missed it (you do read my posts don't you?). All I said in addition is that it's still not what helped the Allies advance.

Originally Posted by coba

No, because some of them start to change their mind. I told you before that some Italians thought the Facist party did the correct thing for Italy. However, after they heard a lot from allies soldiers/newspapers/ propaganda, they started to change their minds.

If they were indeed convinced by propaganda (and not by the Facists' deeds), then why didn't they rise up earlier?

Originally Posted by coba

BS. I am from that country. I am pretty sure I know the history of my country better than you.

I'm not so sure about that. So far, you've gotten enough historical facts wrong that I'd be awfully skeptical without some sort of proof.

Originally Posted by coba

It is simple, like Steven Harper said: Canada involves in Afgan's war because they believe it is really for the sake against terrorism, however, in Iraq, they are not sure at all whether it is part of war against communism or not.

So? I'm still not sure what your point is. And what the heck does communism have to do with it?

Originally Posted by coba

I notice it. But it doesn't mean that I am incorrect too. There are truly several occasion where Minerva is Zaft flag ship.

And in which of those occasions was Freedom shooting at it?

Originally Posted by coba

The guy who shoots him wearing a purple uniform.

Nope. It's a black uniform. Please try again.

[coba]

Sure it means that the EA was going to lose. If you can't hurt your enemy while your enemy can hurt you, then you're going to lose. And why couldn't the Seirans make a mistake in sheltering Djibril? It would hardly be their first mistake in the war.

Still, you can always argue about other nations leaving EA for ZAFT, but you can't argue how they still support Dullindal even though ZAFT just lost to Orb and Dullindal's Meer plan is backfired. Supporting countries doesn't only means whether they are going to win or lose, but also whether you consider them "good" or "bad".

How many people actually said positive things about the Destiny Plan?

A lot. If they don't agree with it, they should go against it. The fact is there are only 3 countries aginst DP: Orb, Scandinavia and AF.

That was their own fault for being caught off-guard. That's what they get for not paying attention. You do realize that hurting your enemies' feelings in a war isn't really much of a concern, don't you? And that shooting up ships and killing their crews is sort of the point, right?

I will accept it if AA is part of Orb. I just take an example as follows: US and Canada are in war. Soldiers from respective countries engage in urban war. Then suddenly a soldier from Japan interferes in the middle of war and kills both side. I am pretty sure US and Canada will piss off. That's the reason why a lot of countries criticized Iraq's invasion to Kuwait. They never give any indicator that they are going to attack Kuwait but suddenly they invade that country.

Todaka, Baba, et al. all acknowledged that it was Cagalli, and all the soldiers knew exactly who the pilot of Strike Rouge was, and it still didn't matter.

Yes, they can identify her voices. But even Meer can duplicate Lacus' voices. That's the reason why they can't argue against Yuna's claim. If George Bush is inside tank, goes to the US base and claims that he is a George Bush, I bet some soldiers will not feel so sure even though they recognize his voice. However, if Bush steps out of the tank, everyone will definitely notice that it is George Bush.
Also, you always claim that Cagalli is the leader of Orband thus, she should have authority to cancel Yuuna's order. If that's the case, why don't soldiers like Baba follow her order ?

A rule of engagement isn't an unwritten rule at all, so it doesn't really look like you know what you're talking about. Rules of engagement are different for every single military, and they can and do use totally different ones in different conflict. In any case, rules of engagement are spelled out in very certain terms, "Obey, or be court-martialled".

You make a mistake. Every country has their own set of rules of engagement. Hiowever, there is also a general unwritten basic for rule of engagement. Some example: military personnel from one country are not suppose to attack military personnel from other countries or invade other country's territory if the two countries are not involved in the war. Also, there is unwritten rule that soldiers should try their best to not shoot paramedics. They are all basic rules that are usually followed by every military in the world.

Another important thing is they can change at the drop of a hat. Cagalli was on board Archangel, so she literally could change the rules of engagement whenever it suited her.

Just because she is the leader of the country doesn't give her a special right to go against rules of engagement. Saddam Hussein is a president of Iraq and he breaches one of the unwritten rule I mentioned above when he ordered an invasion to Kuwait. Just see how many nations are against his decision.

An ID isn't necessary in all cases. Even completely unarmed civilian vessels can be commandeered for military purposes

Yeah but they are not part of military vessel. Please give me an example about civilian ship that doesn't have a military ID but is still considered as military vessel in modern army so that I am convinced by your argument

The fact that Cagalli was in charge of Archangel is sufficient proof by itself. The bit with the uniforms and stuff is sort of a giveaway as well.

What they did in episode 45 was to officially commission Archangel, to assign it to a fleet, and to outline the chain of command.

Dude, even if US admiral with his friends (all wearing uniform) are on board his fishing yatch doesn't prove that the ship is a navy vessel. Also, if the ship is not officially commisioned as military vessel, it is not part of military since it is not on active duty. If AA is not yet commissioned by the highest rank and other generals in Orb military. If Cagalli is the highest rank, then why does nobody follow her order in ep 23 ? Furthermore, Yuuna is also one of the high ranking officer and he doesn't acknowledge AA as part of Orb's. I don't care for what reason Yuuna doesn't acknowledge it since it is a fact that he is the commander of Orb's navy at that moment.

They hid the vessel prior to the show to ease relations with the EA. It's exactly the same reason why Murrue and the others were given assumed identities.

Well it means they can't acknowledge AA as one of their ship at that time since every nation has to list their ship inventories. It could raise a diplomatic conflict if someone (e.g Seiran) found out that AA is part of military.

That's what I meant by "the slowness of the German response". And if Rommel had gone for more centralized Panzer divisions, then this problem would have been less devastating.

Like I told you before, he can't mobilize anything since he couldn't even get the center command to release the Panzers and tank reserves. The number of his armored vehicles is relatively way smaller than the allies.

There's no data to suggest that tactical aircraft were ever very effective at strafing marching troops. Air power in World War II Europe was useful, but never decisive.

Well you don't have any proof that it is ineffective either (Truthfully, I never read about how the fighter is ineffective. I read a lot about hoe the bober is not effective). You can just think logically about it, aircraft can easily cover more area than land vehicles like tanks. It also can easily go behind enemy lines. Even if they don't cause much casualties, it will cause the marching troop to stop and take cover while they meet fighter aircrafts. It cause the troops to be late in arriving to their destination.
Also, if Germany still hold the air superiority, they could easily conduct counter attack against Allies's base in normandy without having to go through all those soldiers on land.
Also, the aircraft also helps the allies in destroying tiger tanks. As an example, you can observe how important the role of A10 Thunderbolt is in gulf war.

All I said in addition is that it's still not what helped the Allies advance.

Well it still plays an important part. I already told you before that communication is one of the most important things. Whether you like it or not, the resistance helps the allies in the D-Day. Pearl Harbour incident mainly happens due to the lack of communication betwwen the guard.

I'm not so sure about that. So far, you've gotten enough historical facts wrong that I'd be awfully skeptical without some sort of proof.

I will ask you whether you are from Indonesia or not ? I am form Indonesia and I learn the history since I wa 10 years old. Do you even know where Indonesia is ?

So? I'm still not sure what your point is. And what the heck does communism have to do with it?

First I meant to say terrorism. Second, even Harper use a lack of evidence to support US's reasoning and thus, he doesn,t support the Iraq war.

Edit: What I mean is the guy who is beside Zala, so the one who beside someone who shot Zala. I apologize about the error. BTW, it seems the next ministry of defense is Yzak Joule's mom. The ministry of defense is responsible for Plant's safety.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

Still, you can always argue about other nations leaving EA for ZAFT, but you can't argue how they still support Dullindal even though ZAFT just lost to Orb and Dullindal's Meer plan is backfired. Supporting countries doesn't only means whether they are going to win or lose, but also whether you consider them "good" or "bad".

I'm not making that argument at all. I'm just concerned about what the EA's chances were after the Battle of Berlin.

Originally Posted by coba

A lot. If they don't agree with it, they should go against it. The fact is there are only 3 countries aginst DP: Orb, Scandinavia and AF.

No, that's not the way the world works. Often a lot of groups are completely silent until they know who will win. Assuming that they are all in support is very weak reasoning. The number of nations that came out to support the Destiny Plan was precisely zero. The three countries to speak out against it in the face of PLANT agression suggests that they are very much in the majority.

Originally Posted by coba

I will accept it if AA is part of Orb. I just take an example as follows: US and Canada are in war. Soldiers from respective countries engage in urban war. Then suddenly a soldier from Japan interferes in the middle of war and kills both side. I am pretty sure US and Canada will piss off. That's the reason why a lot of countries criticized Iraq's invasion to Kuwait. They never give any indicator that they are going to attack Kuwait but suddenly they invade that country.

Your analogy makes no sense, and you've got your facts wrong (again). Iraq did indicate that they were going to invade Kuwait - the breakdown in relations took place over several months. In fact, the American ambassador to Iraq even said that the U.S. had no wish to intervene with their budding conflict.

The invasion was later condemned, but because it was regarded as naked agression, not because of declaration of war reasons.

Seriously, if you're going to keep trying to use historical analogies, at least get your facts correct. Misrepresenting historical events might work against some people, but I'm not one of them.

Originally Posted by coba

Yes, they can identify her voices. But even Meer can duplicate Lacus' voices. That's the reason why they can't argue against Yuna's claim. If George Bush is inside tank, goes to the US base and claims that he is a George Bush, I bet some soldiers will not feel so sure even though they recognize his voice. However, if Bush steps out of the tank, everyone will definitely notice that it is George Bush.
Also, you always claim that Cagalli is the leader of Orband thus, she should have authority to cancel Yuuna's order. If that's the case, why don't soldiers like Baba follow her order ?

As I said, authority and power are totally different things. As long as the Seirans were against her, despite what she believed, Cagalli had no way of exercising her authority. If she did, then her troops would have listened to her and broken off combat from the very beginning.

As to your first point, at no time did any of Cagalli's officers ever doubt that it was indeed her in Strike Rouge.

Originally Posted by coba

You make a mistake. Every country has their own set of rules of engagement. Hiowever, there is also a general unwritten basic for rule of engagement. Some example: military personnel from one country are not suppose to attack military personnel from other countries or invade other country's territory if the two countries are not involved in the war. Also, there is unwritten rule that soldiers should try their best to not shoot paramedics. They are all basic rules that are usually followed by every military in the world.

These aren't rules of engagement, nor are they unwritten at all. Most of what you're talking about are covered either in the Geneva Conventions or other military treaties. Here, I'll list the relevant phrase from Protocol I:

"3. In order to promote the protection of the civilian population from the effects of hostilities, combatants are obliged to distinguish themselves from the civilian population while they are engaged in an attack or in a military operation preparatory to an attack. Recognizing, however, that there are situations in armed conflicts where, owing to the nature of the hostilities an armed combatant cannot so distinguish himself, he shall retain his status as a combatant, provided that, in such situations, he carries his arms openly:"

Obviously, uniforms and warships count as distinguishing marks. Are you still going to try arguing that Archangel is anything but a military vessel?

Originally Posted by coba

Just because she is the leader of the country doesn't give her a special right to go against rules of engagement. Saddam Hussein is a president of Iraq and he breaches one of the unwritten rule I mentioned above when he ordered an invasion to Kuwait. Just see how many nations are against his decision.

That only works if your facts are correct, so your argument is null and void.

Originally Posted by coba

Yeah but they are not part of military vessel. Please give me an example about civilian ship that doesn't have a military ID but is still considered as military vessel in modern army so that I am convinced by your argument

Passenger ships requisitioned as troop transports, merchant vessels carrying military materiel, row boats commandeered by commandos, dinghys used by special forces, river barges used to cross rivers - do I need to go on?

Originally Posted by coba

Dude, even if US admiral with his friends (all wearing uniform) are on board his fishing yatch doesn't prove that the ship is a navy vessel. Also, if the ship is not officially commisioned as military vessel, it is not part of military since it is not on active duty.

This is nonsense that you haven't provided a shred of evidence for.

If AA is not yet commissioned by the highest rank and other generals in Orb military. If Cagalli is the highest rank, then why does nobody follow her order in ep 23 ? Furthermore, Yuuna is also one of the high ranking officer and he doesn't acknowledge AA as part of Orb's. I don't care for what reason Yuuna doesn't acknowledge it since it is a fact that he is the commander of Orb's navy at that moment.

Who cares? Cagalli outranks him.

Originally Posted by coba

Well it means they can't acknowledge AA as one of their ship at that time since every nation has to list their ship inventories. It could raise a diplomatic conflict if someone (e.g Seiran) found out that AA is part of military.

Countries don't have to list their ship inventories.




More off-topic historical lessons:

Originally Posted by coba

Like I told you before, he can't mobilize anything since he couldn't even get the center command to release the Panzers and tank reserves. The number of his armored vehicles is relatively way smaller than the allies.

For the first sentence, that's exactly what I said; I'm not sure why you're repeating it. As for the second, the Allies didn't get significant amounts of armor on the beachheads for about a week after the initial landing - before then, the Germans had the advantage.

Originally Posted by coba

Well you don't have any proof that it is ineffective either (Truthfully, I never read about how the fighter is ineffective. I read a lot about hoe the bober is not effective). You can just think logically about it, aircraft can easily cover more area than land vehicles like tanks. It also can easily go behind enemy lines. Even if they don't cause much casualties, it will cause the marching troop to stop and take cover while they meet fighter aircrafts. It cause the troops to be late in arriving to their destination.
Also, if Germany still hold the air superiority, they could easily conduct counter attack against Allies's base in normandy without having to go through all those soldiers on land.
Also, the aircraft also helps the allies in destroying tiger tanks. As an example, you can observe how important the role of A10 Thunderbolt is in gulf war.

Sure I can - just count the number of casualties suffered due to fighter aircraft. You're trying to claim that they were very successful, so you shouldn't have any trouble digging them up. The number of tanks lost to aircraft should be even smaller - the Allies typically reported 10 kills or more for every single real one they got.

And if you want to point the Gulf War as an example, I'll counter with Kosovo, where NATO's ability to kill tanks was positively terrible. What was it - a whole dozen tanks killed during the entire campaign?

Note that the Western Allies had air supremacy, not just superiority, yet their advance was noticeably slower than the Soviets, all this despite facing only 1/3 to 1/2 as many German troops. Having air superiority wouldn't have help Germany all that much.

Originally Posted by coba

Well it still plays an important part. I already told you before that communication is one of the most important things. Whether you like it or not, the resistance helps the allies in the D-Day. Pearl Harbour incident mainly happens due to the lack of communication betwwen the guard.

What the heck are you babbling about?

Originally Posted by coba

I will ask you whether you are from Indonesia or not ? I am form Indonesia and I learn the history since I wa 10 years old. Do you even know where Indonesia is ?

Why should I care where you're from? All I care about is the strength of your arguments and whether you get your facts right. You seem to be Canadian as well, yet I still have to correct you on Canadian current events, so why should I expect you to be any better in regard to Indonesian history?

From my sources, the Indonesians welcomed the Japanese as liberators, but only because they hated the Dutch - and even that didn't last long. None of them state that the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere had any significant or lasting effect whatsoever. And I trust the accuracy of my sources much more than I do you.

Originally Posted by coba

First I meant to say terrorism. Second, even Harper use a lack of evidence to support US's reasoning and thus, he doesn,t support the Iraq war.

And? Given that the Americans never tried to convince any other country that Iraq had anything to do with terrorism, why would anyone consider a causus belli at all. Heck, nobody with a shred of credibility even dares to use this argument any more. Harper might have said that there's nothing to link Iraq to Martians, and it'd amount to the same thing.

[D a m i e n]

people still talk about that gundam serie? it s rated even lower than G gundam (at least G gundam could make you laught, this serie was so horrible i think i stoped by episode 15ish and only keept up with summaries in order to at least know what the plot was).
The only good thing that came from this serie where fight between kira and shinn fanboys on those boards.

i doubt they could have made it mode black and white. the only thing they would have need to do would have been to label characters with and arrow pointing who were the good and bad guys.

[Eidolon Sniper]

There isn't any black and white in Destiny. All factions have their own black and white sides and it is ridiculous to think that either or none of them are purely white or black (with the exception of EA probably... )...I'll probably think it better if this thread was saying something about Destiny being a speckled show (dashes of black and white between)...

Seriously though, the black and white thing in Destiny was horribly done. It suddenly became not a question of what people in the 3 main factions (ZAFT, EA, Clyne Faction + Orb) are standing for...it was suddenly a contest of what is right and wrong (in the context of the old cast fans and the new cast fans). And of course, stereotyping. So, if new cast A is doing something objectionable, then instantly he becomes EVIL... ~.~;; It goes against the EA and ZAFT in a big way. Makes you think why Fukuda even bothered creating a new cast anyway...

[coba]

I'm not making that argument at all. I'm just concerned about what the EA's chances were after the Battle of Berlin.

I just prove to you how valuable it is to have a good propaganda or at least to show that you are a "good/right" side while your enemy is the "bad/wrong" guy

No, that's not the way the world works. Often a lot of groups are completely silent until they know who will win. Assuming that they are all in support is very weak reasoning. The number of nations that came out to support the Destiny Plan was precisely zero. The three countries to speak out against it in the face of PLANT agression suggests that they are very much in the majority.

Still if they don't accept DP, they will reject it right away. Othere countries like Eurasian, Republic of East Asia, etc are willing to make an agreement with Dullindal that they will try the DP. If the leaders of those countries feel that Dullindal's idea of DP is not acceptable, they will reject it right away like what Orb and Scanadanavia do. Furthermore, the fact that Dullindal manages to get help from them during the Heaven's base means that at that moment they already make an agreeement as allies.

People are not as coward as you think. Even if they are eventually going to lose, they will fight against it as much as they can. I will take an example from Destiny Astray regarding the power struggle in South America. The EA insists that South America is not independent (i.e it is part of EA). Except Ed the Ripper and Jane Houston, they don't have enoguh fire power (i.e they will lose the war against EA). However, they struggle a lot to show that they really want to be independet.

Iraq did indicate that they were going to invade Kuwait - the breakdown in relations took place over several months. In fact, the American ambassador to Iraq even said that the U.S. had no wish to intervene with their budding conflict.

No, they suddenly invade Kuwait city. That's why most nations criticized Saddam and took part in coallision (including Indonesia who always have good diplomatic relationship with Iraq). I know they are in conflict, but there is no indication that those two countries were in war. Indonesia are currently engaging Australia in territorial conflict regarding one small island. Sometimes there are clashes in the border between those two countries. However, neither side doesn't dare too invade others since they are not in the war.

Misrepresenting historical events might work against some people, but I'm not one of them.

I skep[tical about it. You even dare to claim you know about history of Indonesia while in fact you don't even know

As I said, authority and power are totally different things. As long as the Seirans were against her, despite what she believed, Cagalli had no way of exercising her authority. If she did, then her troops would have listened to her and broken off combat from the very beginning.

As to your first point, at no time did any of Cagalli's officers ever doubt that it was indeed her in Strike Rouge.

Cagalli has higher position than the Serian for god sake. She is the leader of Orb while Umato Seiran is only PM. It is a fact at that point that Cagalli is presumed missing and that's why Yuuna temporarily becomes the highest commander. Yuuna - utilizig his status - makes claim that the pilot of Strike Rouge is a fake and Cagalli did nothing to show to people that Yuuna's accusition is not true at all. If Cagalli step out of Strike Rouge (so that everyone can be a witness that the pilot is truly Cagalli) and Yuuna still orders the Orb's soldiers to attack her, it means Yuuna commits a treason by ordering assasination against the Orb's leader (that is if she is still the leader)

Furthermore, you are the one who claim that Cagalli is the political and military leader of Orb. If that is the case, then why do Orb soldiers dare to attack their own leader ? I will answer it for you: it is because either they can confirm that the pilot of Strike Rouge is Cagalli or she officially has been lifted from her position as Orb's leader (which means that your argument that AA = orb vessel since the leader of Orb is on board is not valid anymore).

These aren't rules of engagement, nor are they unwritten at all. Most of what you're talking about are covered either in the Geneva Conventions or other military treaties. Here, I'll list the relevant phrase from Protocol I:

Sure some of them are also adopted by other conventions. But like I said before, there are some rules that are not included in any other conventions like how you are trying your best not to shoot the enemy's paramedics, etc.

For AA, as long as it is not part of Orb, they still do coward action and will be condemned by others. I take an example if ships from Indonesia and Australia are in the middle of battle since both countries involve in the war, then a ship from Russia who doesn't have anything to do with the war whatsoever open fire against both Indonesia and Australia ships (killing some sailors on board). Let see how many nations worldwide will condemn Russia's action.

That only works if your facts are correct, so your argument is null and void.

It is still better than your argument that as a leader of country you can do what you want .I will make sure if you run for presidential campaign, I will vote against you.

Who cares? Cagalli outranks him.

Right. So basically you claim that Orb's soldier are shooting against their own leader. Good job

Countries don't have to list their ship inventories.

BS. Check this website: http://www.nvr.navy.mil/. I am getting skeptical since you didn't check your argument first before claiming sometihng.

Passenger ships requisitioned as troop transports, merchant vessels carrying military materiel, row boats commandeered by commandos, dinghys used by special forces, river barges used to cross rivers - do I need to go on?

Sure, except they all have the ID code from their respective Navy. Even the laundry ship for US navy is assigned a code annd use a name of USS something. Similarly Canada and Brittain with HMS, and Indonesia with KRI respectively.

the Allies didn't get significant amounts of armor on the beachheads for about a week after the initial landing - before then, the Germans had the advantage.

They manage to unload 50 % of the Sherman tanks within three days of D-Day. That's why experts argue that if Germany sent their reserves panzers right away, they can prolong the battle by at least 1 year.

What the heck are you babbling about?

The explanation how important communication is during the war since someone undersetimate its importance.

Note that the Western Allies had air supremacy, not just superiority, yet their advance was noticeably slower than the Soviets, all this despite facing only 1/3 to 1/2 as many German troops. Having air superiority wouldn't have help Germany all that much.

Like I told you before, Germany can easily

Sure I can - just count the number of casualties suffered due to fighter aircraft. You're trying to claim that they were very successful, so you shouldn't have any trouble digging them up.

Dude, counting the number of the causalties doesn't say much. I will just use another example: suppose 100 allies soldiers have to take a bridge guarded by 100 Germany soldiers. The allies knows that Germany will sent additional 100 soldiers to help defending the beach and it will take 4 hours for them to arrive. The US airplane that can go pass through the bridge easily without having to control the bridge first. It can intercept the marching Germany soldiers who are heading to the bridge and shoot at them. Even if the pilor doesn't kill a lot, it forces those Germany soldier to take cover till the plane leave (e.g plane leaves after 1 hours) . As the result, the arrival time for the back up Germany will be late by 2 hours. Hence, it gives the allies soldier an extra two hours to take control of the bridge. Also, the aircraft can help them to attack the places where it is difficult for land soldiers to attack those places.

Having air superiority wouldn't have help Germany all that much.

It can only prolong the battle since Germany also lacks of manpower and material to built their weapons. However, it can make life easier for Germany since aircraft can conduct counter-attack aginst enemy base behind their defence line.

Why should I care where you're from? All I care about is the strength of your arguments and whether you get your facts right. You seem to be Canadian as well, yet I still have to correct you on Canadian current events, so why should I expect you to be any better in regard to Indonesian history?

Firs t of all, I arrive on Canada in 2002. I am originally not from Canada that's why I am not so sure about Canadian history prior to 2002. I born in Indonesia and I spent my education up to high school in Indonesia. So if you aren't so sure about history of Indonesia, don't claim it as if you know. I will believe in you if you cna translate this words to english :
"Saya adalah orang pintar yang tahu sejarah Indonesia secara lengkap. Itu karena gue sekolah di Jakarta"

Your argument is lacking if you don't study in Indonesia and you dare to claim you know the history of Indonesia.

From my sources, the Indonesians welcomed the Japanese as liberators, but only because they hated the Dutch - and even that didn't last long. None of them state that the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere had any significant or lasting effect whatsoever. And I trust the accuracy of my sources much more than I do you.

Who is your source ? All my family members are born and grow up in Indonesia and you dare to think that you know Indonesia more than I do. My grandfathers and grandmothers had first hand experience since they were born prior to 1930. They know more than your sources on how Indonesian people feel at that time.

And? Given that the Americans never tried to convince any other country that Iraq had anything to do with terrorism, why would anyone consider a causus belli at all

Who said they never tried to convince others ? US ambassador for Indonesia tried over and over again to convince Indonesia's government that Saddam is part of Al Qaeda and that's why Indonesia should not voice their displeasure against US's actions.