(CR) Saving 80,000 Gold in Another World for My Retirement

[Sides]

^_^ she has solar panels and a gas cooker fitted in her shop!
Interesting bit is, the waste she export to the other world. Not that important, but the way show touches on certain topics/subjects, I wonder if that will be addressed.

Love seeing Mitsuha jumping on every opportunity to make same gold, like a proper adult.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by larethian

I can't help but see a scammer in the making.

She already convinced an earl family to basically adopt her. If anything, her foray into retail is her toning it down.

[Sides]

A bit surprised this week. Mitsuha warping/teleportation skill actually allows her to transport living beings with her!?! A bit fun seeing the Von Bozes' turning up this episode again.

[Rasty]

Originally Posted by Sides

A bit surprised this week. Mitsuha warping/teleportation skill actually allows her to transport living beings with her!?! A bit fun seeing the Von Bozes' turning up this episode again.

It wouldn't make much sense to be unable to. If she herself can survive it and she is able to transport organic material (like food) in large enough quantity there is no real reason why she shouldn't be able to teleport a whole human. Of course, that doesn't prevent other shows from imposing this random limitation.

[arkhangelsk]

Well, having seen both versions now, it's good as characterization but am I the only one to think Mitsuha was a bit mean to the baron's cook? He's probably not the only cook that's feeling the heat thanks to Mitsuha's actions.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Well, having seen both versions now, it's good as characterization but am I the only one to think Mitsuha was a bit mean to the baron's cook? He's probably not the only cook that's feeling the heat thanks to Mitsuha's actions.

He started off rude from there went to threatening. Screw him.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He started off rude from there went to threatening. Screw him.

That's certainly how the story wants you to feel, but it is also the answer of an eighteeen year old who has had it pretty good (despite the deaths of her family) and had not considered the full depth of consequences in her choices. By the time she was finished, that cook would probably have preferred she just shanked him, b/c he's more likely to survive that.

What Mitsuha, always having met the nice nobles, has allowed herself to forget is that she's by choice living in medieval Europe which is a class society with a low emphasis on "human rights" and "equality". She chose to present herself as a commoner small shop owner, rather than the Acquaintance to a Count position which she could have claimed, which makes her a merchant a rung above the peddlers lacking a store of their own. The chief cook to a noble is almost certainly a rung, maybe even two, above her societal standing.

Further, the chief cook is feeling the heat from his aristocrat boss, which in the anime particularly has already been placed in the not-so-nice category. His evaluation has been downgraded through no fault of his own, his pride is wounded, and him being fired if he doesn't do something is more than a theoretical concern. In that light his attitude to Mitsuha at the beginning is not much more than a stressed out boss being gruff and blunt to a subordinate. Not nice, but societally acceptable.

Also, by any standard, medieval or modern, a shop owner doesn't choose her customers. They come, they are willing to pay the common price, and you have the item available, you sell. Even if they are a bit gruff. To refuse to sell is in itself an indignity, an insult. Of course, in the medieval period it might be acceptable for a high-class shop to serve only the aristocrats, but that in itself is an insult to the commoners, albeit a societally accepted one. The light novel adds that Mitsuha herself chose a shop location that allows her to serve commoners - to refuse to sell to a noble's family who deigns to buy from her commoner's shop is probably doubly insulting.

To add to all that, she last lines are clearly sophist. Some people, and I'm one of them, get more offended if you try and brush me off with an obvious excuse than if you just refuse. The light novel adds that while the full service is a one-off, she has been selling food (probably meaning fish since that by far is the hardest to get) to other nobles, and the cook might have found out about that as well - she's flat out lying. Add to this coming from a kid (Mitsuha looks about 12 to the locals) in what seems to be a lower station by the norms of his society, and it is understandable he snapped.

Finally, while we can understand that Mitsuha is peeved, you don't endanger other people's employment over an argument. The moment the Countess appeared, I think the Cook gets she's not one to be bullied. MItsuha chose to drive the blade deep, and that protest by the Count to a mere Baron is likely to gain the cook not a reprimand, but a firing.

[Rasty]

^ Let's deconstruct your arguments one by one

Political standing: she was the one responsible for the whole debutee party of the Viscount's daughter clearly ordering around the head cook of a Viscount (which he had to know, otherwise he wouldn't know the fish came from her), so her standing is above a cook of mere baron. She might not be known as Count's acquaintance, but she is pretty sure known to be viscount's one.

Secondly, the cook was clearly threatening her livelihood and possibly her life with his words not just complaining. Also, right before Iris came in he was clearly moving onto direct violence (which would be even worse if he considered her to be 12 years old girl).

Thirdly, while not selling something she has in her shop might be kind of rude (though her right anyway), she doesn't sell fish. That she sold some fish as a part of a big package deal for VIP doesn't mean she has to do the same for anyone. Also, he didn't seem like a customer that would pay the proper fare for her goods. He didn't even speak about price etc., he just told her to give him the fish.

And lastly, if she backed down this time she would have hundreds of people walking all over her. She used him as an example for other people with similar ideas. And yeah, Mitsuha is a cold-blooded rationalist, where did you get the idea that she is a nice, frail girl? Was it somewhere between her stabbing to death wolves, feigning a traffic accident, tricking herself into a defacto member of a Count's family, explaining how she is gonna murder any bandits that attack her, or when she did the cliched "I am not gonna get any profit, but I am doing it for the poor forgers" play for the other cook?

[Marina2]

Originally Posted by Rasty

Political standing: she was the one responsible for the whole debutee party of the Viscount's daughter clearly ordering around the head cook of a Viscount (which he had to know, otherwise he wouldn't know the fish came from her), so her standing is above a cook of mere baron.

It's 'Social standing' not "Political standing' Just because she helped organized party of the Viscount's daughter, it doesn't make her a noble. She is still a commoner ,who is a businesswoman/merchant. And she doesn't work under any noble, unlike him. So, she is technically equal or below him.

[Rasty]

^ Social and political are in this context the same. He also isn't a noble and a person who is believed enough to organize the greatest even for Viscount's daughter is definitely not a random nobody.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Rasty

Political standing: she was the one responsible for the whole debutee party of the Viscount's daughter clearly ordering around the head cook of a Viscount (which he had to know, otherwise he wouldn't know the fish came from her), so her standing is above a cook of mere baron. She might not be known as Count's acquaintance, but she is pretty sure known to be viscount's one.

He probably doesn't know the exact details. We've been given the thoughts of the nobles, and their conclusion is that the Viscount would need to use multiple connections to cobble together what they've seen, rather than this being one-stop shopping. He figures Mitsuha provided the fish, not the rest. Even if he knows Mitsuha was given the whole job, he probably imagines her humbly offering advice, not her ordering around the head cook and manhandling the daughter. We saw it. His baron didn't see it, let alone him. It's pretty amazing this little shop can supply fresh fish at all, but that doesn't equalize them.

As it was, Mitsuha was lucky. She can get away with what she's doing not only because the Reinhards greatly desire what she can provide, but due to their background they are particularly egalitarian among nobles. (If you thought that family was pretty egalitarian and fair to their underlings based on observing the anime, the novel confirms they are special in that regard).

Secondly, the cook was clearly threatening her livelihood and possibly her life with his words not just complaining. Also, right before Iris came in he was clearly moving onto direct violence (which would be even worse if he considered her to be 12 years old girl).

At least he didn't actually shank her. In our society purporting equality and rule of law, we are trained to see people flaunting their status as negative and/or threatening. In a Medieval Society, however, misreading someone's status is expected to be career or even life-threatening. Yet it is inevitable that mistakes happen.

In that case, unless one is willing to irrevocably give up the deference his position can buy, and is sure her patrons won't intervene on their initiative, a threat using one's status is at least giving a chance to the other party to reconsider.

And he isn't threatening her that much. They are in the capitol, not the baron's fief. And he's not the baron himself. Their relative position difference means the cook can get away with slapping her or breaking a few things in her store. If the baron joins in, he might be able to organize some thugs to raid her store. If Mitsuha was a normal merchant, the baron might have enough influence to make restocking her shop difficult. But not much more than that. Even the baron himself can't actually take away her store, seriously injure, or kill her. He probably can't even stop her from restocking entirely. If he's the cook of say a Marquis, he and his house would be able to get away with much more.

By the same token, if the cook was the cook for a count, Mitsuha's choices would be OK. The Boses might still put a protest in on her behalf. The opposing house is likely to offer a token apology and promise to reprimand the cook, but actually firing him would be too much of a concession so it won't happen. Count on Baron however the Baron family is likely to be so intimidated they'd fire the cook in front of the Boses, just to appease them.

The relative position matters, and in that sense the threat is actually informative, almost mercy. Mitsuha should probably have responded by name-dropping her own connections. If the bluff is called, then both sides can see who actually has the bigger card.

Thirdly, while not selling something she has in her shop might be kind of rude (though her right anyway), she doesn't sell fish. That she sold some fish as a part of a big package deal for VIP doesn't mean she has to do the same for anyone. Also, he didn't seem like a customer that would pay the proper fare for her goods. He didn't even speak about price etc., he just told her to give him the fish.

First, again, medieval society is not the time for a commoner to assert their "rights" against a noble (or even his assistants in execution of their servitude), even if they exist in a law book, especially in a situation where as you concede it'd be considered morally wrong and an abuse of rights.

If we must talk legality, even on our planet anti-discrimination laws are common (thus, your "right" to not sell / rent / serve/ employ at discretion is limited), and there are jurisdictions where a shop must sell, and at the standard price. So even if Mitsuha is leaning into the law (in a society that's probably not that rule of law), the law might not say what she needs it to - I strongly doubt Mitsuha dunked her head into the local statute book.

Second, let's not be imagining the worst of people just because they are gruff in their word choices. He said "put out" the fish, in imperative form (Sakana wo Dase). There's no particular reason to believe he'd debase his house and not pay, as long as Mitsuha keeps to something the cook can actually pay out of his food budget which is not infinite especially since he's serving only a Baron. Say 3 little gold = 30000 yen for each fish, not 30 gold / fish. The cook wants to prove himself and keep his job, not rob a little girl.

Third, if Mitsuha is never going to sell fish, that's one thing. But she did the party job in the first place to sell her name and show off what she can offer, which includes fish once she realizes how valuable the stuff is in the capitol. The light novel makes it clear she has ever since supplied "food" (probably meaning fish, since she's not supplying prepared food, and they can procure meat, flour and vegetables locally) to other nobles.

And yeah, Mitsuha is a cold-blooded rationalist, where did you get the idea that she is a nice, frail girl?

Mitsuha is tough and clever, but there is a difference between that with an intent to form win-win relationships or killing a true criminal and going for the societal-kill against a person who though wrong, probably doesn't quite deserve to lose his job over it. Which makes me wonder how well Mitsuha has actually considered or realized the probable consequences of her choice to verbally shank the guy rather than say do him a favor and say they are negotiating, then extort from him 5 little gold per fish in the presence of the Count.

[Rasty]

^ No, your impression of medieval society is just wrong. Noble would get away with punching his serf but a cook of a minor noble definitely wouldn't get away with punching a free woman (city dweller) in the capital. It could even be taken as an offense to the lord of the city (royal family there I guess) and take down his lord with him. The henchmen of nobles definitely don't have much higher standing than normal citizens unless they are in his fief or directly accompanying him.

That he half-assed his investigation is only his own problem and if he is in the right to threaten to ruin the life and try punching 12 years old girl for believing he is above her, Mitsuha is definitely in the right to ruin his life back in return when it turns out he isn't. And no, that he can't actually follow on his threats doesn't mean that he isn't threatening to ruin her life or possibly her death.

Also if she was to sell only the fish the price would have to be excessive (something even Viscount couldn't afford, how could Baron's cook do so?) and I am pretty sure he wouldn't accept that. And as I said, the fish isn't part of her normal offering, it is a VIP treatment (she can even say she took a loss on it) and especially in medieval society nobody is gonna complain that she goes to greater lengths for a Viscount than for a Barons's cook.

And I see no reason to pull your punches on an opponent that attacked first (unless it is, you know, a 12-year-old girl). Btw, the Chinese have a good saying for what she did, it is called "Kill the chicken to scare the monkey". She made an example out of him to make other, potentially actually dangerous people, reconsider getting aggressive with her.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Rasty

^ No, your impression of medieval society is just wrong. Noble would get away with punching his serf but a cook of a minor noble definitely wouldn't get away with punching a free woman (city dweller) in the capital. It could even be taken as an offense to the lord of the city (royal family there I guess) and take down his lord with him. The henchmen of nobles definitely don't have much higher standing than normal citizens unless they are in his fief or directly accompanying him.

OK, I defer to your apparent superior knowledge of medieval norms. However, my argument is that Mitsuha's choices were disproportionate to the actual unwert and plausible amount of harm that the man or the baron can inflict. It doesn't help Mitsuha if that's less than what I predict.

That he half-assed his investigation

Uh, how much more information do you think he can reasonably get. He can't see into the Reinhardt's backroom and how Mitsuha is treating the head cook, you know.

if he is in the right to threaten to ruin the life and try punching 12 years old girl for believing he is above her, Mitsuha is definitely in the right to ruin his life back in return when it turns out he isn't. And no, that he can't actually follow on his threats doesn't mean that he isn't threatening to ruin her life or possibly her death.

He never made any concrete threat, only said she won't come out of it unharmed, and that after Mitsuha needlessly played dumb - shopkeepers don't always meet gentlemen. Suggesting something she very well knows does not exist is just being deliberately provocative.

It is almost certainly true displeasing a noble, even a mere baron in the relative safety of the capital, will not improve a small merchant's prospects.

I'm also not certain if the "wrong balance" is in Mitsuha's favor here. He threatened, she actually stabbed. He gave her a chance to correct, while she just plunged the knife in. He was (depending the baron) plausibly in danger of losing his job, and we all know Mitsuha never was under any real threat. He also has a legitimate expectation to be sold fish when it is on sale, and it isn't even for himself; he has a boss who wants to eat fish - it's Mitsuha that's deliberately being difficult.

Also if she was to sell only the fish the price would have to be excessive (something even Viscount couldn't afford, how could Baron's cook do so?) and I am pretty sure he wouldn't accept that.

As far as this story is concerned, the problem with the fish isn't the price. The King himself can't eat fish, at least not in summer in the capitol. The fish simply won't survive the trip between the coast and the capital. In winter, however, it's possible to at least try to arrange for iced fish, though the cost would be over 1 small gold per fish (not more than 2 small gold / fish, then) with a possibility of failure.

Suppose you really want something that you believe the other side can and should provide (for payment, of course). Which response will most infuriate you?

a) Being told it is available, but at a price that while objectively plausible, is out of your budget. Objectively plausible can run up to over one full gold / fish. As long as Mitsuha remembers that a party's total budget is usually just over 300 gold so she had better not say something really stupid like the fish are 300 gold each.
b) Being told that supplies are sorely limited, another objectively plausible claim, and that they've run out.
c) Being refused on the basis of the legalistic differences between "supplying necessary materials to fulfill a [service] contract" and just selling.

Your mileage may vary, but while A and B will bring out resignation in me, C would simply be infuriating. The more so if
a) I have the equivalent of a primary school education (he's a cook in the medieval era; what do you expect beyond the 3 Rs) and genuinely can't understand the distinction. When he says "wake no wakaranai koto", he's not just angry - the explanation is literally beyond him since he doesn't have the education to understand it.
b) My investigation has already revealed you have been supplying fish beyond the so called supplying necessary materials to fulfill a service contract to the Reinhardts. (The light novel puts the section mentioning her supplying "food" to other families before the encounter with the cook, so he could have found out with some connections)
If Mitsuha had answered with A or B, there won't be an obvious, immediate contradiction. Maybe the other families were just willing to puke up a fortune for fish beyond the regular food budget. Maybe he was just too late and the last fish had been sold to some other family. But in answering C, Mitusha is not even being sophist, she's just lying and she's been caught doing so.

Overall, I'd say the guy was provoked. This is all about treating your potential customers with the minimum respect even if they start off on a bad foot, rather than insulting them by blatantly blowing smoke.

(she can even say she took a loss on it)

Tell you what, kid. Name a price that you won't make a loss on for my consideration. I don't need a party's worth of fish. Just sell me one fish so I can placate my boss, man.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Uh, how much more information do you think he can reasonably get.

A lot, if he'd just come into the shop and asked politely.

[alex_drian]

Well people. The first thing than you need to remember is that Mitsuha only have 18 year old, fresh out of high school and a woman.

She didn't calculate none of this socioeconomic shit on the spot, she only acted based in the moment. Dude was being rude to me, well fuck him. Little patience, not piety if not for some benefit.

Remember she's running this bussiness for funsies and there is actually better ways to get the 80000 gold so she runs this bussiness by gut and without the needed experience.

As you have notice by now Mitsuha don't see the bigger picture and she thinks herself smarter than she actually is (she is smart still, but not certainly the keikakudori smarth).

So the answer to:

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Well, having seen both versions now, it's good as characterization but am I the only one to think Mitsuha was a bit mean to the baron's cook? He's probably not the only cook that's feeling the heat thanks to Mitsuha's actions.

Well, is a clash of values. Cook was certainly being rude for no reason but I suppose that wouldn't be weird in a medieval-like society but Mitsuha with her proper japanese education wasn't having none of that (+what I mentioned before).

Aside of that I think than in customer service bussiness you are going to get a lot of assholes customers so you need to get accustomed to deal with them.

My opinion is that Mitsuha is not made for customer service really.

Also, mind you that being a bad customer is the kind of thing that win you someone spitting in you burger for example.

[Strahan]

That's what I like about this forum; people go back and forth arguing the minutiae of scenes, delving into little details hehe. I don't typically see such interesting debates on other forums

I don't feel much sympathy for the cook as he was kind of a dick, but I do think Mitsuha was being a bit over the top. She tells him to go see a fishmonger, but she knows from prior conversations there are none and it's infeasible to even expect such a thing in the capitol. Also as people have mentioned prior, the guy is under a lot of stress so being brusque isn't really a surprise. If she is serious about being a merchant, she has got to learn to not let peoples' attitudes get under her skin so easily. Also putting aside the need to be a proper merchant, I can understand the desire to not serve him due to his attitude but if she is serious about making her 80-whatever gold coin target, why not just swallow irritation and setup some sort of arrangement? If seafood is such a rarity and a big deal, that's a wonderful avenue for massive profits I'd think. Especially considering how cheap fish is in our world.

He never made any concrete threat, only said she won't come out of it unharmed, and that after Mitsuha needlessly played dumb - shopkeepers don't always meet gentlemen.

Yea, and that doesn't even necessarily mean violence. I mean, yea, it's the obvious first possibility when you hear that but it could also refer to other things. Like if a situation caused you to lose a lot of money, some would say you didn't come out unharmed.

So while I wouldn't lose any sleep over his discomfiture, I do think her reaction was a bit overkill.

Oh, and what was up with the statues in the last ep? Maybe I wasn't paying attn in earlier eps, but what made her think that would work? Is the idea that she's concentrating on what to teleport with her, so the stone in the shape she envisions comes along? That was just a bit weird. Art being subjective, it's definitely not something I'd even consider as a profit stream. I'd stick to stuff that anyone can see the benefits of, like her grill lighter and such. A simple thing like that would be super useful in a medieval society.

Also the scene where she was charged by the boar and shot it with the 9mm. Kudos for them actually portraying it right, not having the boar drop like a rock at the first shot. But that said, even 9mm is a pretty loud bang so I find it hard to believe the party was only saying "but the bow didn't make noise before" versus "HOLY GOD allmighty, what was that crazy thunderclap!? Are you a mage??" lol

[Rasty]

Originally Posted by Strahan

Also putting aside the need to be a proper merchant, I can understand the desire to not serve him due to his attitude but if she is serious about making her 80-whatever gold coin target, why not just swallow irritation and setup some sort of arrangement?

I think if she is actually serious about the 80k goal she should just focus on luxury goods and noble clientele instead of things handy for commoners. Just cheap jewelry could make her mountains of gold and if she throws in some random other things, like Artificial silk, for example, she can be swimming in gold in a few months.

Originally Posted by Strahan

If seafood is such a rarity and a big deal, that's a wonderful avenue for massive profits I'd think. Especially considering how cheap fish is in our world.

The problem with selling it en masse is, that she has no plausible supply route. She can bullshit her way over it once (and even so the Count family saw through it easily), but definitely not if she was selling tons of it. People will realize there are not dozens of carriages full of iced fish coming to the capital.

All the other things she is selling are small trinkets that she can plausibly say were just carried from afar by ship and then by some random carriage or on someone's back.

Originally Posted by Strahan

Also the scene where she was charged by the boar and shot it with the 9mm. Kudos for them actually portraying it right, not having the boar drop like a rock at the first shot. But that said, even 9mm is a pretty loud bang so I find it hard to believe the party was only saying "but the bow didn't make noise before" versus "HOLY GOD allmighty, what was that crazy thunderclap!? Are you a mage??" lol

They were pretty panicked when they run in so it should have been a decent ruckus. The "but the bow didn't make noise before" was more like "WTF is she saying, this was obviously something else". Also their deciding they will keep the secrets of their client is 100% them not ratting out that she is a witch that can throw around lightning bolts.

I wonder whether Mitsuha realizes that 90% of her customers consider her to be a witch. That is btw., funny, since she is a witch (in a sense) with the teleport, regeneration, and language understanding, just all the things others take as a proof are not witchcraft.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Strahan

Also the scene where she was charged by the boar and shot it with the 9mm. Kudos for them actually portraying it right, not having the boar drop like a rock at the first shot. But that said, even 9mm is a pretty loud bang so I find it hard to believe the party was only saying "but the bow didn't make noise before" versus "HOLY GOD allmighty, what was that crazy thunderclap!? Are you a mage??" lol

Probably the contribution of a gun-mania within the anime staff, since the boar did go down to two hits (of three single shots) in the light novel. Not having hunted before, both versions seem plausible since the boar should broadly be of similar weight to a human, and statistically a single good 9mm bullet is 90%+ stop against a human. On the other hand, its charging full of adrenaline, and such targets are known to be hard to drop at times.

Maybe they want to represent in her panic, she didn't actually hit with most of her rounds, having gone for the 3-round burst in the anime (otherwise, how else are they going to show off the Beretta 93R).

I actually like a lot of little details in this episode, like how everyone judiciously looked away and avoided commenting on the whistling kettle and gas stove.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Strahan

That's what I like about this forum; people go back and forth arguing the minutiae of scenes, delving into little details hehe. I don't typically see such interesting debates on other forums

I don't feel much sympathy for the cook as he was kind of a dick, but I do think Mitsuha was being a bit over the top. She tells him to go see a fishmonger, but she knows from prior conversations there are none and it's infeasible to even expect such a thing in the capitol. Also as people have mentioned prior, the guy is under a lot of stress so being brusque isn't really a surprise. If she is serious about being a merchant, she has got to learn to not let peoples' attitudes get under her skin so easily. Also putting aside the need to be a proper merchant, I can understand the desire to not serve him due to his attitude but if she is serious about making her 80-whatever gold coin target, why not just swallow irritation and setup some sort of arrangement? If seafood is such a rarity and a big deal, that's a wonderful avenue for massive profits I'd think. Especially considering how cheap fish is in our world.

It's precious enough that she doesn't have to deal with some baron's asshole cook if she doesn't want to.

Originally Posted by Rasty

I think if she is actually serious about the 80k goal she should just focus on luxury goods and noble clientele instead of things handy for commoners. Just cheap jewelry could make her mountains of gold and if she throws in some random other things, like Artificial silk, for example, she can be swimming in gold in a few months.

She's serious-ish, but it's her retirement fund. She's in no hurry.

[Strahan]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's precious enough that she doesn't have to deal with some baron's asshole cook if she doesn't want to.

Yea, but money is money, wouldn't bother me. Then again, I'm forty-eight not eighteen. Teenagers tend to be more prickly about that kind of thing, heh.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

She's serious-ish, but it's her retirement fund. She's in no hurry.

The growth of a retirement fund is vastly affected by longevity; you're never too early to start amassing it. Early investing can have exponential dividends in what you have come retirement age.