(CR) Honzuki no Gekokujou (Ascendance of a Bookworm)[anime]

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Haak

When someone questions why something has to be this particular way I always find it particularly telling when the best defence isn’t about it being important to the story’s themes/motives/messages/character development (you know the things that actually matter) but basically just “because certain meaningless things couldn’t happen in their certain meaningless ways”. It’s always a huge red flag for me that this show is probably lacking in depth.

Now I’ve read enough of the story, so I’ll just straight up let Irenesharda know that he is absolutely right. Whilst the MC does use her knowledge of her past life to advance her goals, this is something that could’ve easily been written in a way that wasn’t otherwise meaningless and cheap. And it would have been better for it.

You're wrong in every particular. If you've actually read the story as you claim you'd know that: the story's themes, motives, messages, and character development are all fundamentally based off of our heroine's origins. You cannot remove that detail and have the same story. Nor would the story that would be written by removing it be "better" in any way. The idea that a story with a main character who comes from another world is somehow inferior to one that doesn't is a complete and utter fallacy.

[Anh_Minh]

On that subject, I'm going to plug Pratchett's "The Truth".

It has a fantasy world discovering movable type (as in our world, woodblock printing had existed for a while at that point).

It isn't isekai. The MC isn't a loli, but an adult disowned nobleman. (So, both literate and motivated to have lots of people read because that's how he makes a living.) And isn't the one who invents the movable type.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

You're wrong in every particular. If you've actually read the story as you claim you'd know that: the story's themes, motives, messages, and character development are all fundamentally based off of our heroine's origins. You cannot remove that detail and have the same story. Nor would the story that would be written by removing it be "better" in any way.

Irenesharda is free to decide who he thinks has the better judge of things between us. Or could he just disregard all of us together if he chooses to because at the end of the day, he can only give his impressions on what he sees and that is his impression based on what he saw from the first episode. He has absolutely no obligation to listen to any of us and our subjective judgement of the source material.

The idea that a story with a main character who comes from another world is somehow inferior to one that doesn't is a complete and utter fallacy.

imaginarygatekeeping

[erneiz_hyde]

All he did was disagree with you with a neutral tone, not even an ad-hominem, and you reply with "calm down bro"?

[Haak]

...Is that an insult?

No need for insults, dude. Correct me if I'm wrong but it wasn't hard to get a sense of hostility from him by reading between the lines hence my response. I don't think there's anybody here that would be offended by a simple "calm down bro"

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Haak

...Is that an insult?

No need for insults, dude. Correct me if I'm wrong but it wasn't hard to get a sense of hostility from him by reading between the lines hence my response. I don't think there's anybody here that would be offended by a simple "calm down bro"

You... may come across as more supercilious than you think or intend.

And IME, "calm down bro" is at best useless (because the opposite party is already calm) or is just going to make things worse. It never seems to calm down any bro.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You... may come across as more supercilious than you think or intend.

Oh, in which case apologies to Random Wanderer if he felt that but now I've edited in case he hasn't yet.

[erneiz_hyde]

I've also edited out parts of my post. I am also sorry for jumping the gun. Glad to see you're a reasonable guy.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

On that subject, I'm going to plug Pratchett's "The Truth".

It has a fantasy world discovering movable type (as in our world, woodblock printing had existed for a while at that point).

It isn't isekai. The MC isn't a loli, but an adult disowned nobleman. (So, both literate and motivated to have lots of people read because that's how he makes a living.) And isn't the one who invents the movable type.

Right. But for whatever reason (sales) the author chose to incorporate the plot in a loli package. So it would make sense to go isekai route with loli in the lower to middle-class stratum. If she was in the upper class, she wouldn't care or have much contact with lower to middle-class. Or prob even much power to engineer social changes on the level our loli has to do. Basically our loli has to manage adults on an adult-level while taking into fact she's a kid to get to her goals. That's going to require advance knowledge and managment techniques prob on the level of Rimiru Tempest.

[magnuskn]

Poor Myne (the original). I actually found it dark as hell that we got to hear her final thoughts.

This is a definite pick-up for me, though. Unless they go the Dr. Stone route, where the plot gets completely stuck in one place. But if they keep the pace up, this show about bringing reading to a mostly illiterate world has my attention as an avid book reader.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by orion

Right. But for whatever reason (sales) the author chose to incorporate the plot in a loli package. So it would make sense to go isekai route with loli in the lower to middle-class stratum. If she was in the upper class, she wouldn't care or have much contact with lower to middle-class. Or prob even much power to engineer social changes on the level our loli has to do. Basically our loli has to manage adults on an adult-level while taking into fact she's a kid to get to her goals. That's going to require advance knowledge and managment techniques prob on the level of Rimiru Tempest.

But why does she have to do it while she's a loli/kid? Why not have it be that she prepares throughout her life until she is an adult and then she starts moving her plans forward? That way she would manage adults at an adult level in a more believable way since she is, you know, an actual adult.

Orion is right, the only reason this is an Isekai is for the convenience that that type of setting brings to reach the goal, in other words (my words) it's the lazy route to the goal.

There are a million ways that a low class kid like Myne could come across a book, it could be as easy as finding one in the garbage or on the side of the road. Heck, Irenesharda also had a great idea with having the little girl have something like a psychic link to the woman back in our world and then that is how she learns about books and the woman starts to educate her about books and that could have been how she got interested in them.

As for the arguments defending the Isekai setting, not one has convinced me that it is needed in this kind of story, if anything said comments have, in my opinion, enforced that it's not needed in the slightest and it's just there because Isekai is popular.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

There are a million ways that a low class kid like Myne could come across a book, it could be as easy as finding one in the garbage or on the side of the road.

1. In that medieval setting? Not too bloody likely.
2. Even if she had, so what? The point isn't for her to hold a book in her hands. It's for her to have an obsession with the written word. It would take a lot more than finding a book she can't even read to develop that.

Heck, Irenesharda also had a great idea with having the little girl have something like a psychic link to the woman back in our world and then that is how she learns about books and the woman starts to educate her about books and that could have been how she got interested in them.

And that would be just as cheap as isekai, only clunkier. It's avoiding the stigma of isekai for the sake of avoiding it, not to write a better story.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

1. In that medieval setting? Not too bloody likely.
2. Even if she had, so what? The point isn't for her to hold a book in her hands. It's for her to have an obsession with the written word. It would take a lot more than finding a book she can't even read to develop that.


And that would be just as cheap as isekai, only clunkier. It's avoiding the stigma of isekai for the sake of avoiding it, not to write a better story.

It could happen in any setting, someone forgetting something or accidentally throwing it away or something along those lines can happen to anyone.

If she did, just looking at the thing even if she initially couldn't read it would spark some sort of wonder about the book in her and in turn make her interested in them, especially for an impressionable kid.

Not as cheap as having an adult bodyjack a kids body to enforce the convenience of having a child MC with the intelligence, experience and memories of an adult to jump start the plot, as opposed to having a kid that actually grows an interest that she carries into adulthood with actual hopes and aspirations of spreading the wonders of books.

Because having two characters across different realities, the adult mentoring the kid about the wonders of books and the impressionable kid learning about said wonders, both of then building a connection over time and working together to bring about a change in the younger ones book deprived world without the baggage of bs convenience that Isekai usually beings with it would not improve the story at all, right?

Because having the kid take the teachings from the other worlds adult to heart as she grows up and finding a way to apply them to her world in hopes of helping other realize the wonders of book and teaming up to find a way to make them widely available wouldn't be an improvement, right?

Nah, let's just have some adult take over the kids body and skip the part where the MC could have learned about the wonders of books, let's jist skip all the hard work of having the character actually grow up and just have the other worlds chosen one come and do everything in the body of a kid because... reasons I guess.

[erneiz_hyde]

You can also write Harry Potter story without any magic involved while still carrying the same core messages and values. But again, so what? What's the point? Shield Hero could've worked just as well without isekai, OverLord as well, even Re-Zero and perhaps even Youjo Senki. But what's the bloody point in arguing that?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

It could happen in any setting, someone forgetting something or accidentally throwing it away or something along those lines can happen to anyone.

I suppose it's no weirder than getting to be king because of pulling a sword from a stone. Barely.

If she did, just looking at the thing even if she initially couldn't read it would spark some sort of wonder about the book in her and in turn make her interested in them, especially for an impressionable kid.

And what's the kid's supposed to be impressed by, in your scenario? At that point, you might as well use divine intervention and have the god of literature tell the MC she's the chosen one in person.

Not as cheap as having an adult bodyjack a kids body to enforce the convenience of having a child MC with the intelligence, experience and memories of an adult to jump start the plot, as opposed to having a kid that actually grows an interest that she carries into adulthood with actual hopes and aspirations of spreading the wonders of books.

Because having two characters across different realities, the adult mentoring the kid about the wonders of books and the impressionable kid learning about said wonders, both of then building a connection over time and working together to bring about a change in the younger ones book deprived world without the baggage of bs convenience that Isekai usually beings with it would not improve the story at all, right?

Because having the kid take the teachings from the other worlds adult to heart as she grows up and finding a way to apply them to her world in hopes of helping other realize the wonders of book and teaming up to find a way to make them widely available wouldn't be an improvement, right?

Nah, let's just have some adult take over the kids body and skip the part where the MC could have learned about the wonders of books, let's jist skip all the hard work of having the character actually grow up and just have the other worlds chosen one come and do everything in the body of a kid because... reasons I guess.

It's exactly as cheap, because the difficulties will be solved the same way: through modern common knowledge being especially relevant and applicable, somehow. Only with an added layer of sock puppetry, as if Conan and Kudo Shinichi really were two different people communicating by phone.

And the contrivance of reincarnation replaced by the contrivances of someone from modern day Earth somehow mentoring a girl from another world. Why (does one want to learn, and the other to teach, both of them spending a lot of time and energy)? How (do they cross the language barrier)? What (does the mentor have to teach that'd be of use to the mentee)?

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

But why does she have to do it while she's a loli/kid?

Because spoilers. You're demanding information that will be answered eventually but which we can't tell you now because of the rules, and you're acting like the fact that we can't give it to you makes you right. Because of a number of reasons, some having to do with specific details of their society, others having to do with Myne herself, she has to be this age. If she were so much as two years older right now, a fundamental aspect of the story that drives the entire plot throughout the entire massive multi-novel series would have to be removed.

Why not have it be that she prepares throughout her life until she is an adult and then she starts moving her plans forward?

Because of SPOILER she cannot do so. Due to SPOILER she SPOILER so if she does not find a way to get her hands on books as soon as possible, she SPOILER.

There are a million ways that a low class kid like Myne could come across a book, it could be as easy as finding one in the garbage or on the side of the road.

Would never happen. EVER. You're still thinking by 21st century standards. Books are valuable in this setting. One would never, ever, ever be thrown out or discarded. The one she saw in the marketplace was a treasure: it's worth more than her entire family and their entire lifetime's earnings.

Heck, Irenesharda also had a great idea with having the little girl have something like a psychic link to the woman back in our world and then that is how she learns about books and the woman starts to educate her about books and that could have been how she got interested in them.

That would be the most ludicrous, hackneyed, ham-fisted thing that could be done. It would practically be an isekai anyway, only allowing people who get bizarre knee-jerk reactions to isekai to claim "she didn't technically travel to the other world that means it's not an isekai and is thus infinitely better!" without the slightest bit of awareness of how much worse a story it would actually be.

It could happen in any setting, someone forgetting something or accidentally throwing it away or something along those lines can happen to anyone.

If she did, just looking at the thing even if she initially couldn't read it would spark some sort of wonder about the book in her and in turn make her interested in them, especially for an impressionable kid.

Not as cheap as having an adult bodyjack a kids body to enforce the convenience of having a child MC with the intelligence, experience and memories of an adult to jump start the plot, as opposed to having a kid that actually grows an interest that she carries into adulthood with actual hopes and aspirations of spreading the wonders of books.

Because having two characters across different realities, the adult mentoring the kid about the wonders of books and the impressionable kid learning about said wonders, both of then building a connection over time and working together to bring about a change in the younger ones book deprived world without the baggage of bs convenience that Isekai usually beings with it would not improve the story at all, right?

Because having the kid take the teachings from the other worlds adult to heart as she grows up and finding a way to apply them to her world in hopes of helping other realize the wonders of book and teaming up to find a way to make them widely available wouldn't be an improvement, right?

None of this could happen, mostly because of details about Myne you don't know yet. How about you wait a bit and learn some of this information for yourself, rather than trying to argue that because the rules here forbid us from directly answering your questions that that means you're right?

Orion is right, the only reason this is an Isekai is for the convenience that that type of setting brings to reach the goal, in other words (my words) it's the lazy route to the goal.

An incredibly ignorant judgement. And an arrogant one. Who do you think you are to decide, based on close to zero knowledge of the story, that you somehow know better than the author how this story should be written? A series with over 1 million copies in print, that has been critically judged one of the best light novel series for the past several years? That gets me genuinely angry with you.

You are, as many have said, demanding that an entirely different story be written solely for you so you don't have to be exposed to isekai. If that's what you want, go out and do it yourself. The author wrote this story, and it's a good one.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

You can also write Harry Potter story without any magic involved while still carrying the same core messages and values. But again, so what? What's the point? Shield Hero could've worked just as well without isekai, OverLord as well, even Re-Zero and perhaps even Youjo Senki. But what's the bloody point in arguing that?

Well I don't think you could for Harry Potter because that was all about childhood fantasies come to to life (before it got progressively darker). A quiet bullied boy with a lousy family finds out he's a hero in an enchanting world of magic and wizardry. Same for The Saga of Tanya the Evil, because the MC's background is actually relevant and its one of the few isekai that actually treats the isekai concept the way its supposed to be. But would it be wrong to suggest that show would be a lot better if Tanya weren't a psycho loli? I mean it was funny but still...

The others however, yes you could write them without being an Isekai and imo I think it would be better because it gives more opportunity for the MC to be complex with potentially compelling backstories, grounded within the setting you're trying to create.

[felix]

This series is great. Also this is as far as I'm concerned, an old school isekai, where the isekai is just a magical part of the story, rather then a wish fulfillment fantasy.

You can kind of tell from the get go. No fulfillment happened. If anything its a nightmare.

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

It could happen in any setting, someone forgetting something or accidentally throwing it away or something along those lines can happen to anyone.

Books in this time period are as valuable as a (perfectly working) high end TV, and just as hard to "make" if we were to say have a analogy to modern equivalence. How often do you find that on the street?

Even if it did random slums girl wouldnt be the first in line to get it. And even if she also accidentally picked it up, she wouldn't be able to keep such a "treasure."

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Haak

Well I don't think you could for Harry Potter because that was all about childhood fantasies come to to life (before it got progressively darker). A quiet bullied boy with a lousy family finds out he's a hero in an enchanting world of magic and wizardry.

So what? Just make the bullied boy some kind of genius invited to a special school or whatever. Replace the magic with tech gadgets.

[Haak]

If that's meant to be a comparison to my argument then I'm sure you can appreciate that it is a bit of false analogy (it was to begin with anyway). What you're suggesting is an entirely different genre as opposed to what some of us are suggesting is changing one particular plot element that is a poor imitation of a sub-genre. They're leagues apart.

I also don't really care about Harry Potter either way so if you want to have that opinion, I wouldn't mind.