Re:Zero - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Syan48306]

Originally Posted by bakato

He got a clue this loop. Anastasia wanted intel on Crusch's operation. He unwittingly gave it to her this time, but when he loops he'll have leverage.

Seriously, next loop, I'm hoping he grows a pair and becomes 007 smooth and makes Anastasia, Crusch, and Priscilla wet with anticipation with just words.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

The end part of Crusch and Subaru's conversation says it best, Crusch will lose Emilia as a rival either way, so she's taking the easier route and not going to lift a finger as it still doesn't benefit her. Subaru said it best, "I hope you become a great ruler, a dictator who pushes aside the weak." because that's exactly what she's doing.

It's nothing to do with them being weak.

She's not willing to sacrifice her people, her soldiers, just to save Emilia's people.

Subaru needs to learn to play the Game of Thrones. He should hire Tyrion.

Unfortunately, Tyrion wouldn't help him either.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Syan48306

Seriously, next loop, I'm hoping he grows a pair and becomes 007 smooth and makes Anastasia, Crusch, and Priscilla wet with anticipation with just words.

That's doubtful. It looks like he's going to kick the bucket and as I've said before death isn't the magic bullet to straightening him out.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by moridin84

It's nothing to do with them being weak.

She's not willing to sacrifice her people, her soldiers, just to save Emilia's people.


Unfortunately, Tyrion wouldn't help him either.

Not to be mean, but I think you should improve your reading comprehension...

[felix]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Also, it's quite hard for someone who basically lives and breathes manga to suddenly adjust to a more medieval political mentality.

Wait, isn't he suppose to be a game otaku?

I kind of assumed he was given the series premise. This explains his lack of "gaming" sense.

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

The one thing that confuses the heck out of me is how they took the fast route and yet no one mentioned to Subaru and he didn't think about the threat that they had been avoiding. If they willingly gambled on avoiding that threat that's one thing....but everyone just forget it was there? What changed where information about that thing didn't get to Rem and the traders?

.

Subaru and Rem left before the fog set in this time, so they weren't aware that the threat was going to show up.

[lesterf1020]

I think Crusch is a poor politician. The propaganda coup you could get from destroying the witch cult and saving Alam village right under Roswaal's nose because his own servant came to you begging for help is spectacular.

In one fell swoop she would
1. Eliminate a threat to the empire making her a hero.
2. Show her compassion for all of the empire's citizens even those of her rival by saving Alam village.
3. Humiliate her rival by showing that he could not detect or protect his own citizens from a threat on his own lands.
4. Bring home this point stronger by emphasizing that Roswaal's own servant came to her instead of his master for help.

Instead she gave Subaru something any campaign manager would have killed for, namely circumstantial evidence that Crusch only cared about herself and her domain and that she was willing to let the witch cult spread and kill empire citizens unless stopping them could be shown to profit her personally. If I were a rival campaign manager I would even imply that she was a supporter of the witch cult. Once that rumor took hold her candidacy would be doomed.

I understand the real reason for her refusal but I think that was really poor politics.

[blakstealth]

Originally Posted by lesterf1020

I think Crusch is a poor politician. The propaganda coup you could get from destroying the witch cult and saving Alam village right under Roswaal's nose because his own servant came to you begging for help is spectacular.

In one fell swoop she would
1. Eliminate a threat to the empire making her a hero.
2. Show her compassion for all of the empire's citizens even those of her rival by saving Alam village.
3. Humiliate her rival by showing that he could not detect or protect his own citizens from a threat on his own lands.
4. Bring home this point stronger by emphasizing that Roswaal's own servant came to her instead of his master for help.

Instead she gave Subaru something any campaign manager would have killed for, namely circumstantial evidence that Crusch only cared about herself and her domain and that she was willing to let the witch cult spread and kill empire citizens unless stopping them could be shown to profit her personally. If I were a rival campaign manager I would even imply that she was a supporter of the witch cult. Once that rumor took hold her candidacy would be doomed.

I understand the real reason for her refusal but I think that was really poor politics.

It's probably a weak point that Subaru can take advantage of IF he gets to re-do his conversation with her. but right now, he's not right in the head.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by lesterf1020

I think Crusch is a poor politician. The propaganda coup you could get from destroying the witch cult and saving Alam village right under Roswaal's nose because his own servant came to you begging for help is spectacular.

In one fell swoop she would
1. Eliminate a threat to the empire making her a hero.
2. Show her compassion for all of the empire's citizens even those of her rival by saving Alam village.
3. Humiliate her rival by showing that he could not detect or protect his own citizens from a threat on his own lands.
4. Bring home this point stronger by emphasizing that Roswaal's own servant came to her instead of his master for help.

Instead she gave Subaru something any campaign manager would have killed for, namely circumstantial evidence that Crusch only cared about herself and her domain and that she was willing to let the witch cult spread and kill empire citizens unless stopping them could be shown to profit her personally. If I were a rival campaign manager I would even imply that she was a supporter of the witch cult. Once that rumor took hold her candidacy would be doomed.

I understand the real reason for her refusal but I think that was really poor politics.

Exactly, obviously the Queen is selected by popular vote, much like a democratic government. Crusch lacks compassion, much like the rest of the candidates, with the exception of Emilia. Her marching her army out to save the lives of the citizens would only reflect positively on her. Judging by her demeanor and how she's conveyed, especially in the OP, she's a militant, its no wonder that she has none.

[felix]

Originally Posted by lesterf1020

I understand the real reason for her refusal but I think that was really poor politics.

This really applies to all the candidates not just her.

But I think the main reason for her not doing anything of the sort is more of a plot deus ex machina.
The plot requires everyone else to lose. Not very good situation if any of the candidates becomes a pesky national hero.

Fundamentally the problem of Subaru being untrustworthy is also an issue, considering he pretty much told them they would need to mobilize a small army.
Then again, if he makes it sound like not something a crazy person would say or doesn't even say it himself then it might work.

[Elestia]

Man, this episode was just brutal and completely eviscerates Subaru ego in so many ways by each of the royal election candidates it's almost unbearable to watch. Crusch, Priscilla, and Anastasia each bluntly and harshly points out everything that Subaru lacks.

Crusch coldly points out that everything Subaru does is for his own personal desire. He can't view anything else outside his own narrow minded views to effectively see his own weak position. In his negotiation efforts he has nothing to offer to Crusch and is hamstrung by his own self-righteousness. But his feelings is completely distorted by his blinding hatred against Witch's Cult and obscuring what really matters to him. Crusch demolishes his desperate pleas, saying that wants to help other is a lie since he has not once said he wanted to save Emilia. In the end Crusch cuts him down to size and denies him any help from the Karstel house, saying that nothing will change the way he is now.

Again, during his rants, Crusch gives him critical advice every time she verbally refutes Subaru's points, but he is unable to take it into consideration and lashes out emotionally and refuses to see his own faults.

Next we get Priscilla who basically says the same things as Crusch, but in a verbal and physical fashion. He is violently beaten by her all the while that Subaru is irreparably harming Emilia's chances at the royal elections. Even if he does get help he is effectively politically committing suicide by shouldering such huge debts from Emilia's political rivals. As Priscilla says, it would be better to kill Subaru and let Emilia die by the hands of the cultists if such a future awaits them. Again, Subaru can't see past his own ego and is completely desperate. He unable to see the bigger picture of his own foolish actions and what kind of consequences he is bringing about.

A thing to note is that, Priscilla's outburst seems to be triggered by Subaru's action seems to be out of character for her. There's probably a deeper reason, as Alderbaran even has to try to calm the princess down.

In the end, Priscialla despite his violent treatment of Subaru once again give his advice through the beatings, but again Subaru can't see past it, calling her a stuck up bitch even though the first time they both.

Finally, we end up with Anastasia who is probably the most profit seeking of all the candidates. Althought, she acted friendly with Subaru and even giving his transportation arrangements, she effectively collects information from Subaru without him knowing. She is the only one to take advantage of Subaru out of all the candidates in order to further own agendas. The reason she even helped Subaru out with the dragon carriage is because she accurately assesses Subaru's value as worthless. Subaru won't change and is powerless to do anything so leaving his to squirm in and writhe. To Anastasia he is no even worth caring about after she he wrought every bit of information from him.

Subaru basically dug his own grave once again and unable to put up any resistance in his negotiations. It isn't as if he has gotten anything from his horrible ordeal, but the problem is if he can see past his own ego and learn from the advice each of the candidate's lessons. He needs something to bring to the negotiation table and level the playing field with candidates. If he does not, Emilia will be unable to continue the elections even if she is saved. He needs to stop being so easy to read and taken advantage of. He needs to stop for one second and thinking critically about his own actions. But out of all the lessons he has to see his own faults before he can make steps to improve himself.

Each of the candidates are real life characters that are living in this world. They have they're own motivations and agendas they resolved themselves out to carrying out and will not be swayed by the protagonist's whims. If he wants to deal with them, Subaru needs to get on their level in order to progress. This is something that is really refreshing to see, but also painful to watch.

Not sure about the significance of the tree or the whale though, but we'll learn about it later I guess.

This series is just phenomenal and I have to give it to the studio for constantly skipping the OP or ED to give the show more time to flesh everything out. Can't wait till the next episode.

[Sheba]

I have been wanting to slap those candidates silly then I realized this is what some anime fans wanted to see in an isekai story if the locals stopped having their jaw dropping over MC's superior liberal modern values inherited from the Age of Enlightenment , and wanting to have babies with the morally superior denizen from Modern Earth. Only Anderson's The Man Who Came Early comes in mind when I think of a story in fiction that gave me the feel I have had when I watch Re-Zero and Subaru's social failings.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

The one thing that confuses the heck out of me is how they took the fast route and yet no one mentioned to Subaru and he didn't think about the threat that they had been avoiding. If they willingly gambled on avoiding that threat that's one thing....but everyone just forget it was there? What changed where information about that thing didn't get to Rem and the traders?

They are too early this iteration. Compared to the first time round, they moved out one day earlier. The news of the fog (accompanied by the white whale) is supposed to reach the capital the following morning which will lead to the road getting blockaded. As Subaru is not a native, he is not conscious of the threat level of the 'white whale'.

Details about 2nd round was not clear, as Subaru was out of it and not paying attention to what was happening until later.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by lesterf1020

I think Crusch is a poor politician. The propaganda coup you could get from destroying the witch cult and saving Alam village right under Roswaal's nose because his own servant came to you begging for help is spectacular.

In one fell swoop she would
1. Eliminate a threat to the empire making her a hero.
2. Show her compassion for all of the empire's citizens even those of her rival by saving Alam village.
3. Humiliate her rival by showing that he could not detect or protect his own citizens from a threat on his own lands.
4. Bring home this point stronger by emphasizing that Roswaal's own servant came to her instead of his master for help.

Instead she gave Subaru something any campaign manager would have killed for, namely circumstantial evidence that Crusch only cared about herself and her domain and that she was willing to let the witch cult spread and kill empire citizens unless stopping them could be shown to profit her personally. If I were a rival campaign manager I would even imply that she was a supporter of the witch cult. Once that rumor took hold her candidacy would be doomed.

I understand the real reason for her refusal but I think that was really poor politics.

I believe it has something to do with her hidden agenda plot that was hinted in this episode. Maybe she already has a big plan in motion and could not afford to risk it by helping Emilia...

[Tong]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

She wants everything to, she thinks she should rule over all, that everything is hers, because she was born into privy life.

Ok, you only watch the anime right? No wonder you're getting the wrong idea, the anime barely shows their motivations and speech during the royal election. I suggest you check out the manga "Re:Zero kara Hajimeru Isekai Seikatsu - Daisanshou - Truth of Zero Manga" Chapter 5. You'll learn much more about the candidates!

Dont worry, the manga only adds. It's neither behind or ahead the anme.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by lesterf1020

I think Crusch is a poor politician. The propaganda coup you could get from destroying the witch cult and saving Alam village right under Roswaal's nose because his own servant came to you begging for help is spectacular.

In one fell swoop she would
1. Eliminate a threat to the empire making her a hero.
2. Show her compassion for all of the empire's citizens even those of her rival by saving Alam village.
3. Humiliate her rival by showing that he could not detect or protect his own citizens from a threat on his own lands.
4. Bring home this point stronger by emphasizing that Roswaal's own servant came to her instead of his master for help.

Instead she gave Subaru something any campaign manager would have killed for, namely circumstantial evidence that Crusch only cared about herself and her domain and that she was willing to let the witch cult spread and kill empire citizens unless stopping them could be shown to profit her personally. If I were a rival campaign manager I would even imply that she was a supporter of the witch cult. Once that rumor took hold her candidacy would be doomed.

I understand the real reason for her refusal but I think that was really poor politics.

There is one big problem with you view that you're overlooking: The White Whale that has currently taken up residence between the captial and Roswaal's land. Even if Crusch had agreed to help Subaru she would still have to get through that monster to get there in time. That's even not talking about the battle itself which could see her losing signficant amount of her forces anyway, pontienal leaving her without enough manpower to fight the Witch Cult. There also point in ep 14 where Crusch stated she has been doing her preparations for something so she may not even have strength to spare to help Subaru.

So it bit more complicated then your making out to be and she really isn't a position to take advangte of anything. Not when she probably has her own problems.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by lesterf1020

In one fell swoop she would
1. Eliminate a threat to the empire making her a hero.

At this point I dont think the threat Betelgeuse poses is on a national level, or at least if he does, no one really knows this. The reaction from the people could/would probably be, "Oh she killed some witch cultists, that's cool," and then promptly be forgotten. Now if the cultists attempted to invade the capital and she was a major contributor to repelling them, that would be something to brag about.

Originally Posted by lesterf1020

2. Show her compassion for all of the empire's citizens even those of her rival by saving Alam village.

Politically sound point, I agree.

Originally Posted by lesterf1020

3. Humiliate her rival by showing that he could not detect or protect his own citizens from a threat on his own lands.

While on the surface this seems like a great idea, there are in fact a few ways this could be turned and used against you to great effect.

Originally Posted by lesterf1020

4. Bring home this point stronger by emphasizing that Roswaal's own servant came to her instead of his master for help.

The problem with this argument is that Subaru is no longer counted as Roswaal's servant as he was abandoned in the capital, meaning him going to Roswaal for help wouldnt even be called into question.

Originally Posted by lesterf1020

I understand the real reason for her refusal but I think that was really poor politics.

If you dont mind my asking, what do you believe her real reason for refusal is? Just curious as I think it's different than what I believe.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by lesterf1020

I think Crusch is a poor politician. The propaganda coup you could get from destroying the witch cult and saving Alam village right under Roswaal's nose because his own servant came to you begging for help is spectacular.

In one fell swoop she would
1. Eliminate a threat to the empire making her a hero.
2. Show her compassion for all of the empire's citizens even those of her rival by saving Alam village.
3. Humiliate her rival by showing that he could not detect or protect his own citizens from a threat on his own lands.
4. Bring home this point stronger by emphasizing that Roswaal's own servant came to her instead of his master for help.

Instead she gave Subaru something any campaign manager would have killed for, namely circumstantial evidence that Crusch only cared about herself and her domain and that she was willing to let the witch cult spread and kill empire citizens unless stopping them could be shown to profit her personally. If I were a rival campaign manager I would even imply that she was a supporter of the witch cult. Once that rumor took hold her candidacy would be doomed.

I understand the real reason for her refusal but I think that was really poor politics.

The reason you claimed to have understood, which I infer to be about the political gains and cons, is only part of the reason. The other part evident from this episode is because she has evaluated Subaru's psychological state, and did not want to act under vague intel that she could not verify and which Subaru could not back up.

Originally Posted by Tong

Ok, you only watch the anime right? No wonder you're getting the wrong idea, the anime barely shows their motivations and speech during the royal election. I suggest you check out the manga "Re:Zero kara Hajimeru Isekai Seikatsu - Daisanshou - Truth of Zero Manga" Chapter 5. You'll learn much more about the candidates!

Dont worry, the manga only adds. It's neither behind or ahead the anme.

It's funny how you feel others are getting the wrong idea about something because they only watch the anime and never consider this possibility for yourself for another series in which you are not familiar with the source content.

[Tong]

Originally Posted by larethian

It's funny how you feel others are getting the wrong idea about something because they only watch the anime and never consider this possibility for yourself for another series in which you are not familiar with the source content.

The anime is very very explicit too!

Spoiler for Pic:

Which is why I didnt understand how the other poster got the wrong idea, so I suggested the manga to expand on that^

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I can understand the perspective of wanting to get rid of a political rival and the risks involved here. But, I can't say Subaru is 100% in the wrong either. He's bubbling with rage to be sure and that's not helping him at all. But, his perspective isn't necessarily wrong. To lose a political rival these people who apparently want to run a country don't give a damn about the innocent people that will be slaughtered. They are going to be your citizens if you win!

But they aren't, yet. In fact, even if she wins, they'll still be Roswaal's people. Depending on what tack Roswaal takes after losing, the nuance may be pretty significant.

Originally Posted by lesterf1020

I think Crusch is a poor politician. The propaganda coup you could get from destroying the witch cult and saving Alam village right under Roswaal's nose because his own servant came to you begging for help is spectacular.

You're way too optimistic about the pros of sticking her neck out. For one thing, everything would have to go well. Subaru would have to be right about the attack taking place, and she'd have to win the battle, while suffering few losses of her own, and without letting the cultists escape. And even in that best case scenario, she wouldn't eliminate the Witch Cult.

As for the importance of that propaganda coup, it really depends on who votes.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Exactly, obviously the Queen is selected by popular vote, much like a democratic government.

Something tells me most people don't get a vote.

Crusch lacks compassion, much like the rest of the candidates, with the exception of Emilia.

Which maybe should tell you something of the importance of compassion in politics.