Macross Delta - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Thess]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

The situation was not comparable in any case. Their command structure was convinced that the Vajra were only semi-mindless hivemind. The only person who really knew that the Vajra were sentient was Ranka (and even at that, she wasn't quite so sure, as can be seen when she and Brera went to the Vajra homeworld). Alto can't really be blamed for not believing her words when at the time she had a breakdown or two already and, oh yeah, was betraying Frontier for the Vajra!!!

Leon knew that was a lie. And fed lies to his people, also had the President assassinated to take control (I have my doubts of Gramia's death, myself).

You can easily understand Alto's poor emotional control and circumstances, however he was in the wrong and Ranka was on the right. Alto was controlled by his own revenge need and refused to listen to Ranka (who was showing him Ai-kun, a friendly Vajra that he knew beforehand), he also pushed her away with his irrational actions, after he proceeded to follow orders from one of the show's villains. Frankly speaking, I don't see any difference between him or Bogue, in fact, dare I say Bogue has better justification even, considering almost all his family was killed and he's 15 years old while Alto was older and only one of his best friends died. Magazines and book summaries also stated Alto was the one who committed the mistake in episode 21, not Ranka, who you all seem to blame and hate in that exchange.

I'm not bothering to discuss Windermere further. About to go to my vacations overseas. Time will tell.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

*edit* Sheesh, nobody has even mentioned the OP so far. Which is... pretty bad. Lots of repeated scenes from before in the show and the song is not as catchy as I'd like.

The most hilarious are the poor attempts to put 'triangle' teasing scenes like this one. It's just as bad as Aquarion Evol second opening with reused footage.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Roid: We're going to wage war against everyone!
Most Windermere population: What? Why? Wasn't it over?
Roid: Quick! Bring the shota!
Heinz: Like he said...
Almost everyone: HEIL HEINZ SAMA THE CUTEST.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Roid: We're going to wage war against everyone!
Most Windermere population: What? Why? Wasn't it over?
Roid: Quick! Bring the shota!
Heinz: Like he said...
Almost everyone: HEIL HEINZ SAMA THE CUTEST.

He's obviously genre-savvy and knows that everything is accepted if you promote it with a cute singer.

That said I really feel bad for Heinz. If there's one of Windermere higher ups I really feel for, it's him. He really wants to make everyone happy (specially his brother), hates violence and he's surrounded by people who tug him around for their agenda: either revenge or Roid's... plans, or whatever Epsilon/Evil NUNS people are in for. A 9 years old should be playing carefree and enjoy his childhood, not forced to deal with this which is beyond his plate (all his scene left me a sensation of isolation, unhappiness and really deep loneliness too). I really hope Freyja and Mikumo could reach for him, or smack Keith to show open affection to his brother and man up to be king after he's straightened his act. I'm hoping for a Heinz+Mikumo wind song duet too. His voice is really lovely.

[magnuskn]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by Thess

Leon knew that was a lie. And fed lies to his people, also had the President assassinated to take control (I have my doubts of Gramia's death, myself).

Yeah, I think nobody here is defending Leon.

Originally Posted by Thess

You can easily understand Alto's poor emotional control and circumstances, however he was in the wrong and Ranka was on the right. Alto was controlled by his own revenge need and refused to listen to Ranka (who was showing him Ai-kun, a friendly Vajra that he knew beforehand), he also pushed her away with his irrational actions, after he proceeded to follow orders from one of the show's villains. Frankly speaking, I don't see any difference between him or Bogue, in fact, dare I say Bogue has better justification even, considering his entire family was killed and he's 15 years old while Alto was older and only one of his best friends died. Magazines and book summaries also stated Alto was the one who committed the mistake in episode 21, not Ranka, who you all seem to blame and hate in that exchange.

Oh, that is rich, trying to equate Alto (second best character of Frontier) to Bogue (by far the worst and one-dimensional character from Delta).

Let's see. Alto's situation was as such:

- Had fought for months against the Vajra (who, lest we forget, we regarded by everyone else than Ranka as mindless)
- Witnessed the destruction of large parts of Frontier
- Just had lost his best friend, to one of Ai-kuns siblings no less.
- Was put by that nitwit Ranka in a position where he suddenly had to decide about betraying his home and going on a suicide mission with her, for a cause for which he had nothing but her word, compared against his experience of several months of constant fighting against relentless warlike aliens who were intent on wiping out his home.
- Also was quite preoccupied with his true love Sheryl slowly wasting away before his eyes.
- And, yes, Alto followed orders as a soldier, but he also had not the greater knowledge of many of the things going on behind the scenes.

Bogue, on the other hand:

- Is in the inner circle of elite pilots of Windermere
- Clearly puts much greater emphasis on the lives of even one Windermeran than many of his opponents (who, lest we forget are clearly sentient beings)
- Has exactly one character trait ("I hate enemies of Windermere and I can't to KILL THEM ALL!!!")
- Is probably not completely informed about the real circumstances of the war, which is his one saving grace
- Has a hard-on for killing singing women

[Thess]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Oh, that is rich, trying to equate Alto (second best character of Frontier) to Bogue (by far the worst and one-dimensional character from Delta).

I would dispute that Alto is second best Frontier character, that's entirely subjective. Bogue is okayish now. Theo and Xao are far more one dimensional than he is, as is NUNS GUY.

- Had fought for months against the Vajra (who, lest we forget, we regarded by everyone else than Ranka as mindless)
- Witnessed the destruction of large parts of Frontier
- Just had lost his best friend, to one of Ai-kuns siblings no less.
- Was put by that nitwit Ranka in a position where he suddenly had to decide about betraying his home and going on a suicide mission with her, for a cause for which he had nothing but her word, compared against his experience of several months of constant fighting against relentless warlike aliens who were intent on wiping out his home.
- Also was quite preoccupied with his true love Sheryl slowly wasting away before his eyes.
- And, yes, Alto followed orders as a soldier, but he also had not the greater knowledge of many of the things going on behind the scenes.

You're rationalizing an excuse to say "yes Alto was emotional immature to deal with a serious circumstance, Ranka was in the right though." Because Ranka was in the right. Ranka was also showing him, Ai-kun, who he knew for weeks or months before that, and he treated him as an enemy. So yeah, Alto's prejudice was wrong. You can admit he made a mistake and was misled by Leon and his own hurt, but he was acting because he wanted to avenge Michael and because he wanted to protect his homeland.

Exactly as Bogue. He's acting on his feelings of revenge and well, he wants to protect his home from perceive threats. He's also a dumb emotional teen mislead by craftier adults to fight for a cause. Don't forget he was ready to kill Ranka and pointed a gun at her when she shielded Ai-Kun. How is that different from Bogue pointing his sword to Freyja and calling her a traitor to his people, huh? At least Freyja was a stranger to him and actually partaked on fighting against them as Walkure, while Ranka was one of Alto's closer friends. Do you see what hatred does? I don't see much of a difference. Alto has more focus, as the main character and POV. Bogue, on the other hand, has barely had his screentime, but presents similar issues:

- Is in the inner circle of elite pilots of Windermere

They are still just following orders. They are only Keith's men. Roid controls all the Aerial Knights as Prime Minister. Bogue only belongs to the White Knight's Squad, iirc. Roid's title is Holy Knight or something like that? I forgot, but he's in control of the army as whole.

- Clearly puts much greater emphasis on the lives of even one Windermeran than many of his opponents (who, lest we forget are clearly sentient beings)

Yes, so? Hayate puts emphasis more on the lives of Freyja or people he knows than other ones. I haven't seen Bogue randomly bombing non Chaos or NUNS targets though. It's a war, most soldiers put emphasis on their side (or there is people like that NUNS guy who don't even care about his own grunts).

- Has exactly one character trait (Raaaaaaage!)

His hero worship for Keith (he joined Aerial Knights because he saw him flying), his affection to Herman as a surrogate father. He wants to defeat him because Herman once told him that they'll be family if he lands a hit. He's pretty chill with his friends. But yes, he's angry. He was what? Eight when his family died except for one or two sisters? After that, he was raised in a demoralized planet and saw how the other planets blamed Windermere for their own bombing while he knew that wasn't Gramia who did that. How do you think a completely innocent 8 years old took that? He wasn't a sociopath, we saw him in the manga backstory and he was a sweet kid.

Of course he's lashing out because he's a furious, hormonal, not too bright 15 years old orphan who lost his parents and 3 sisters in the war. A responsible adult would not have him in the army at all, but alas it's not that kind of show. But you can't call him a war criminal when all he does is pilot a Draken. He certainly needs therapy, though.

- Has a hard-on for killing singing women

Perfectly understandable: they are the ones sabotaging their operations. And their voices affect their flying. How would you not kill Walkure first when it's the only ones that can stop you?

Doesn't make Bogue right, either. But it's understandable he's just a dumb, hurt kid blinded by revenge who is misguided by adults and propaganda after he lost his family. I don't feel sorry for him as I do with Heinz, because I don't have an emotional response to him but I can perfectly see where he's coming from (just as I did with Alto - neither were right though). Now is to wait if Bogue will mature and realize his wrongs as Alto did or not.

[magnuskn]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by Thess

I would dispute that Alto is second best Frontier character, that's entirely subjective. Bogue is okayish now. Theo and Xao are far more one dimensional than he is, as is NUNS GUY.

Nope, Bogue takes number one on the terrible characters in Delta at this moment.

As for Alto being the second best character in Frontier, that is my interpretation, which I know is not shared by many. He is my favorite male anime character, after all and is only superseded by the sheer awesomeness of Sheryl, who is my favorite female anime character.

Originally Posted by Thess

You're rationalizing an excuse to say "yes Alto was emotional immature to deal with a serious circumstance,

No, he was not emotionally inmature, he was acting like a sane person would in his situation. An insane person would have gone with Ranka when she was ranting about going on a suicide mission into the Vajra territory on a hunch she had.

Originally Posted by Thess

Ranka was in the right though." Because Ranka was in the right. Ranka was also showing him, Ai-kun, who he knew for weeks or months before that, and he treated him as an enemy. So yeah, Alto's prejudice was wrong. You can admit he made a mistake and was misled by Leon and his own hurt, but he was acting because he wanted to avenge Michael and because he wanted to protect his homeland.

Ranka turning out to be right was almost dumb luck. You might want to remember that Banana and her almost got killed by the Vajra when they turned up in their home system. Yes, she had indications that the Vajra could be reasoned with, but, oops, turns out that they were still quite belligerent. And, no, she was not sure of herself, she clearly was shown to be insecure if she could communicate with the Vajra. Meanwhile, her absence would have probably meant Frontiers destruction if not, by another stroke of dumb luck, Sheryls progressing sickness activating her fold receptors.

So, sorry, but your arguments are terrible. Why in heavens name would Alto listen to someone who just recently had flipped out and thereby unleashed hell on Frontier? He behaved as sanely as a normal human being would in that situation.

Originally Posted by Thess

Exactly as Bogue. He's acting on his feelings of revenge and well, he wants to protect his home from perceive threats. He's also a dumb emotional teen mislead by craftier adults to fight for a cause. I don't see much of a difference. Alto has more focus, as the main character and POV.

I reject this argument, because it is terribly wrong, as enumerated above.

Originally Posted by Thess

They are still just following orders. They are only Keith's men. Roid controls all the Aerial Knights as Prime Minister. Bogue only belongs to the White Knight's Squad, iirc. Roid's title is Holy Knight or something like that? I forgot, but he's in control of the army as whole.

Yes, that might be Bogue's saving grace, since he does not have command authority. However, at the Nuremburg trials saying "I was just following orders" was not so good an argument.

Originally Posted by Thess

Yes, so? Hayate puts emphasis more on the lives of Freyja or people he knows than other ones. I haven't seen Bogue randomly bombing non Chaos or NUNS targets though. It's a war, most soldiers put emphasis on their side (or there is people like that NUNS guy who don't even care about his own grunts).

Actually, Hayate spared Bogues life, so maaaaybe that should have done something to Bogue as a character. But, nope, still a raging asshole. And what I was trying to say with "puts more emphasis on his own peoples life" is that I see Bogue as a racist prick who likes to kill non-Windermerans.

Originally Posted by Thess

His hero worship for Keith (he joined Aerial Knights because he saw him flying), his affection to Herman as a surrogate father. He wants to defeat him because Herman once told him that they'll be family if he lands a hit. He's pretty chill with his friends. But yes, he's angry. He was what? Eight when his family died except for one or two sisters? After that, he was raised in a demoralized planet and saw how the other planets blamed Windermere for their own bombing while he knew that wasn't Gramia who did that. How do you think a completely innocent 8 years old took that? He wasn't a sociopath, we saw him in the manga backstory and he was a sweet kid.

I don't give two craps about a manga backstory which should be immaterial to viewers of the anime. If he was a super nice kid in the anime, good for him. He isn't now.

Originally Posted by Thess

Of course he's lashing out because he's a furious, hormonal, not too bright 15 years old orphan who lost his parents and 3 sisters in the war. A responsible adult would not have him in the army at all, but alas it's not that kind of show. But you can't call him a war criminal when all he does is pilot a Draken. He certainly needs therapy, though.

Again, him being just at soldier rank and not taking command decisions might be the thing which makes him redeemable, when he stops being a racist murdering asshole.

Originally Posted by Thess

Perfectly understandable: they are the ones sabotaging their operations. And their voices affect their flying. How would you not kill Walkure first when it's the only ones that can stop you?

Doesn't make Bogue right, either. But it's understandable he's just a dumb, hurt kid blinded by revenge who is misguided by adults and propaganda after he lost his family. I don't feel sorry for him as I do with Heinz, because I don't have an emotional response to him but I can perfectly see what he's coming from.

Sure, militarily it makes sense. But on any level but that, it should give him pause. That he is incapable of thinking beyond his own rage makes him such a poor character.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

- Has a hard-on for killing singing women

To be fair, he doesn't like killing any singing women. He is eager to kill Walkure because they are the highest danger to his faction since their singing disrupts Heinz' singing and help boost the enemy pilots to fuck up his squad. He is being practical and tactical. In fact, I'm wondering why the other pilots did not join Bogue by trying their hardest to kill Walkure any chance they get instead of looking for opponents to have a dogfight with? That actually makes me question Bogue's fellow knight-friends' intelligence (or street-smart-ness if you will) about fighting a war and battles. Bogue does what is tactically right, while his friend seem to just having fun in the chaos .

[Thess]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

No, he was not emotionally inmature, he was acting like a sane person would in his situation. An insane person would have gone with Ranka when she was ranting about going on a suicide mission into the Vajra territory on a hunch she had.

Ranka turning out to be right was almost dumb luck. You might want to remember that Banana and her almost got killed by the Vajra when they turned up in their home system. Yes, she had indications that the Vajra could be reasoned with, but, oops, turns out that they were still quite belligerent. And, no, she was not sure of herself, she clearly was shown to be insecure if she could communicate with the Vajra. Meanwhile, her absence would have probably meant Frontiers destruction if not, by another stroke of dumb luck, Sheryls progressing sickness activating her fold receptors.

So, sorry, but your arguments are terrible. Why in heavens name would Alto listen to someone who just recently had flipped out and thereby unleashed hell on Frontier? He behaved as sanely as a normal human being would in that situation.

I reject this argument, because it is terribly wrong, as enumerated above.

Cool, but Alto is blamed by his behavior officially. Ranka wasn't 'wrong' because of 'sheer dumb luck' but because she was an enlightened heroine singer with special connection to the Vajra who were supposed to be understood and to be communicated with as endgame. It wasn't a coincidence or good luck, it was an actual theme of the show? ALTO HELPED THE BAD GUYS WITH HIS BEHAVIOR. Sorry about the caps, but emphasis mine. He worked for Leon willingly (unlike Ranka who was mind controlled by Grace). He trusted Leon more than he trusted one of his friends. Sorry, that's frankly stupid of him. All because he couldn't think except on his own anger and sorrow. You can understand him, but not necessarily think he did something right. The problem was that Ranka and Alto couldn't communicate with each others (as contrast, for example, take Freyja and Hayate: who could actually communicate each others and both are on the same page about what should be done - at the wake of Messer's death even. This is not comparing Hayate or Freyja with Alto and Ranka as characters, because they are vastly different, but you can see how a relationship strengthens thanks to mutual understanding and falls apart because they fail to communicate). Neither in the show or the movie, Alto listens to her about the Vajra until later.

SMS immediately left Leon when they realized his true colors, while Alto remained there.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yes, that might be Bogue's saving grace, since he does not have command authority. However, at the Nuremburg trials saying "I was just following orders" was not so good an argument.

Invoking Godwin's Law would make you lose an argument.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Actually, Hayate spared Bogues life, so maaaaybe that should have done something to Bogue as a character. But, nope, still a raging asshole. And what I was trying to say with "puts more emphasis on his own peoples life" is that I see Bogue as a racist prick who likes to kill non-Windermerans.

Hayate didn't want to kill. Either way, he's the protagonist (and far more mature than Alto in this aspect), so he wouldn't be blinded by revenge, while Bogue is.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I don't give two craps about a manga backstory which should be immaterial to viewers of the anime. If he was a super nice kid in the anime, good for him. He isn't now.

It's their backstory. It's a multiple media project. You should try to follow all that is released.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Again, him being just at soldier rank and not taking command decisions might be the thing which makes him redeemable, when he stops being a racist murdering asshole.

He hasn't even killed anyone yet. Hayate has a bigger death count. Though if Alto quit acting like a racist murdering asshole with the Vajra, with luck, Bogue will learn too.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Sure, militarily it makes sense. But on any level but that, it should give him pause. That he is incapable of thinking beyond his own rage makes him such a poor character.

That makes him a realistic teenager, though. Frankly speaking, I don't see a 15 years old with Bogue's background should be in the army. Period. Freyja's exceptionally mature for her age and experience, but she's not an average person: she's the main heroine and possibly Chosen One to establish coexistence. Bogue's reactions and attitude I find realistic (not pleasant, but what I would expect from a kid who suffered that kind of conflict).

[Father Hentai]

Are we talking now about Delta or about Frontier? Frontier has its own threads.

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by Thess

Hayate didn't want to kill. Either way, he's the protagonist (and far more mature than Alto in this aspect), so he wouldn't be blinded by revenge, while Bogue is.

The point is that Hayate can't kill on purpose. This is clear since his hire with Chaos. He also expressed after his fighting lesson with mirage that shooting isn't his business and that he is going his way. That is why he shot at the feet and not at critical zone of bogues plane.

[Thess]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Are we talking now about Delta or about Frontier? Frontier has its own threads.

It's still Delta related. I was just comparing Alto's case with Bogue (picking Bogue because he's the youngest and more emotional) because Alto was also blinded by revenge, worked for one of the bad guys, tried to kill/pointed a weapon to one of the singing heroines who got labelled a traitor because of duty/his feelings.

He's just more fleshed out and we have his POV, but it's not that different from Bogue in general.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Also, isn’t Walkure part of the PMC that is Chaos? From Bogue's POV, that makes them part of the active military personnel of the enemy (aka. not civilians), which makes them justifiably "killable" in this war. That’s just like how soldiers need to kill the enemy’s radio-operators and code-breakers in WWII if they continue to fight and not willing to give up. Why? Because even if they’re not directly shooting at you, their jobs and deeds will get the army on your side killed or f***ed up and that's why you have to stop them.

[Father Hentai]

Well, you could say that Walküre are like medics, because their job is to cure the Var Syndrome. Chaos are just their personal bodyguards. Actually they are non combatants, if we would apply the Geneva convention.

The fight is actually Windermere vs. NUN and Chaos is just inbetween.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Also, isn’t Walkure part of the PMC that is Chaos? From Bogue's POV, that makes them part of the active military personnel of the enemy (aka. not civilians), which makes them justifiably "killable" in this war.

As far as I know, Walkure aren't civilians. They are all full-fledged members of a private military: their task is different from flying a VF and their function is more dangerous to those who depend on fold space navigation as Windermeres do.

[Father Hentai]

Walküre are sound force like Firebomber. There is a definition about how soundforces act. They are tactical units, but are seen as a non military unit.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Macross 7 VF-22S bombing run.

Alleged NUNS VF-22 bombing run.

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Anybody else noticing the discrepancy of performance? Why drop when you can fire far away?

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Anybody else noticing the discrepancy of performance? Why drop when you can fire far away?

Bombing does not give any heat signature. Firing does.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Well, you could say that Walküre are like medics, because their job is to cure the Var Syndrome. Chaos are just their personal bodyguards. Actually they are non combatants, if we would apply the Geneva convention.

The fight is actually Windermere vs. NUN and Chaos is just inbetween.

Non-combatants that can get your squad F-ed up. Their danger-level makes them more like enemy's radio-operators and code-breakers rather than mere medics from Winder’s POV.

Chaos is a hired gun. They are hired by someone and has obviously chose Winders as their enemy and are clearly opposing them. That makes Chaos the enemy of Winders (for the time being). It can’t get more obvious than that. Even Bogue understands .

[Mistyclear]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Hayate try to kill Keith.... He did shoot at his cockpit.

[Thess]

The two main triangles. I laugh a lot about the composition because it implies Hayate and Mirage are disputing Freyja.

[FlareKnight]

Credit to the show for making a decent attempt to make the Windermere people sympathetic....not sure it really worked but worth a shot.

Bogue is still an idiot and when he gets shot down the show will be better off. Might as well get a taste of his own medicine and fulfill his obsession with drowning in blood.

Credit that some of the Knights were like "ummm wait a second here." I suppose it shows that they think making a small empire run through mind control is better than trying to conquer the entire galaxy with mind control. You know....at least they draw the line somewhere. I'm not sure Roid is really departing that far from the natural path they were on. On the positive side it avoids there being a cease-fire which would have made it a lot harder for the main characters to actually save the planets. In the end having people react in surprise to this expansion of war doesn't really work. They were still committing horrific acts. That they thought their acts would only affect millions, not billions hardly makes them less vile.

More evidence that the bomb was dropped by the NUNs although....considering who is releasing the footage the trust factor is questionable. Wouldn't be that hard to just steal that plane and drop the bomb. Could easily still have been done by a third party.