Love Live! - Sunshine vs. Original Comparison Thread

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Nork22

Honestly when they started, it was Kussun and Shikako. This was because they didn't have any musical training so they were a bit rough at the start. They have improved over the years but they won't hold a candle against Nanjolno, Mimorin, Emitsun and Pile.

I can sorta of agree on Kussan, but on Shikako I have to disagree in 2011 she with printemps for 'Love marginal' & 2012 solo for 'Kodoku na Heaven' and calling her performance in either of those songs mediocre is down right insulting, so maybe she lacked a little in group singing prior to that, but she was never a mediocre singer to me and honestly I always viewed Shikako as a better singer than Pile .

And personally start music wise Aquors has only once really impressed me with a group song (humming Friend); a feat µ's achieved multiple times before the anime started. While the subunit songs of Aquors did impress me generally.

So musically I still view Aquors as inferior as a group of 9 to µ's, though in trios they've been comparable to µ's starting levels at least.

On Seiyu's fitting their roles, though while I was worried about how some of them would fit their characters from the intros. So far in the anime the ones I was worried most about seem to have improved and now they've fit just as well as µ's seiyu did to me.

[Nork22]

Nitpick, but how are people still spelling Aqours wrong?

Originally Posted by Kotohono

I can sorta of agree on Kussan, but on Shikako I have to disagree in 2011 she with printemps for 'Love marginal' & 2012 solo for 'Kodoku na Heaven' and calling her performance in either of those songs mediocre is down right insulting

Woah, woah, I'm not insulting anyone here. Nothing against Shikako, but Kodoku no Heaven is my least favourite song, to the point I'll skip it given a chance. Nothing to do with her singing, just the song itself. I like Nawatobi better.

So musically I still view Aquors as inferior as a group of 9 to µ's, though in trios they've been comparable to µ's starting levels at least.

That I have to disagree. To me the Aqours seiyuus voices harmonised better (if only slightly) as a group at the start than µ's was. It's just that with some songs, especially Aqours' first single wasn't all that memorable. Aqours Heroes and Step! Zero to One were better at showcasing how dynamic the group can be. BoRaRaRa was, and still is, pretty mediocre as a song and showcasing the singing talents of µ's, but I don't take that as a gold standard. Yuujou no Change though was better as it does go through the dynamics of the individual singers to give you an idea of how well they harmonised.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Nork22

Nitpick, but how are people still spelling Aqours wrong?

When I think "Aqours" in my mind, the first things it makes me think of are actual English words like "aqua" and "aquatic". With those words, the u comes right after the q. So my default tendency is to similarly spell Aqours with the u right after the q (Aquors - the misspelling). Almost every time I write Aqours, I have to consciously remind myself that the o comes first. That's how ingrained going "aqu___" is in my mind. Hopefully by the time Sunshine Episode 9 rolls around, I'll be used to Aqours enough that I won't need to keep telling myself "o before u".

I'm not sure if the same thing is true for Kotohono or anybody else, but that's definitely why I've misspelled Aqours in the past, and might do so in the future.

That I have to disagree. To me the Aqours seiyuus voices harmonised better (if only slightly) as a group at the start than µ's was.

I agree with this. However, keep in mind that even this can be a taste issue.

I like how the various voices of µ's often don't harmonize into one, since I like how I can hear each members' individual voice shining through. Now, I get that maximum harmonization is the polished professional way of doing things, so I certainly appreciate the musical professionalism of Aqours and its subunits, but I like µ's voices so much that I honestly prefer the more amateurish way when it comes to them.

On the whole, I like µ's music more than Aqours' even if Aqours way is more professional. Granted, it's still early for Aqours, so they could improve for me overtime.

[Nork22]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm not sure if the same thing is true for Kotohono or anybody else, but that's definitely why I've misspelled Aqours in the past, and might do so in the future.

As Dia would say

Images

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On the whole, I like µ's music more than Aqours' even if Aqours way is more professional. Granted, it's still early for Aqours, so they could improve for me overtime.

Definitely. Aqours have 11 songs released so far, and the potential of some more fantastic songs being produce is there. I'm now loving Humming Friends more than Aozora Jumping Heart and this is me thinking they can't top Mattete Ai no Uta.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Nork22

Nitpick, but how are people still spelling Aqours wrong?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm not sure if the same thing is true for Kotohono or anybody else, but that's definitely why I've misspelled Aqours in the past, and might do so in the future.

It's the same issue for me and triple it's mental unconscious thing for thinking U following Q, even after thinking about it as aqua + ours to try to get myself use it, it still trips me up...

Originally Posted by Nork22

That I have to disagree. To me the Aqours seiyuus voices harmonised better (if only slightly) as a group at the start than µ's was. It's just that with some songs, especially Aqours' first single wasn't all that memorable. Aqours Heroes and Step! Zero to One were better at showcasing how dynamic the group can be. BoRaRaRa was, and still is, pretty mediocre as a song and showcasing the singing talents of µ's, but I don't take that as a gold standard. Yuujou no Change though was better as it does go through the dynamics of the individual singers to give you an idea of how well they harmonised.

BoRaRaRa is definitely a bit mediocre by standards of µ's songs and Yuujou no Change was good but nothing amazing which puts the single evenly with Aqours first I suppose.

But a mere 3 months after it they did make their 2nd single and both songs on it far outshine any of the Aqours songs thus far, I'd say µ's showed huge improvement in the time between their first & 2nd single meanwhile Aqours 2nd single gave them over twice as long before µ's had and while they improved it was only moderately so, as Snow halation & Koi no Button both showed off µ's harmonising quite strongly, imo.

Even looking towards songs evenly the first 11 songs for µ's are undoubtedly stronger than the first 11 Aqours songs to me. As Snow halation, Koi no Button, Natsuiro Jump!, Mogyutto, Aishiteru Banzai!, & Oh,Love&Peace! were all strong memorably songs (total 6) comparatively I'd only place Mattete, AQUARIUM, Jumping Heart, & Humming Friend on that level (total 4).

Hence why I consider Aqours musically inferior as a group of 9 to µ's at this stage/level.

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by judasmartel

1. Maybe because the LL contest really requires 9 members per group?

2. First years have difficulties adjusting to their new school while third years have to focus on graduation, so not much extra-curricular activities from both. Hence your second year MC who doesn't have to deal with those things, thus more extra-curriculars.

3. At least Chika struggles hard to form a group because asides from You who can only really give moral and wardrobe support, she really stands alone against all these obstacles standing in her way. Honoka didn't have to struggle as much because she had friends who got her back. While we can use a "MC struggling for a spot in an established idol group" plot, it pops up some red flags considering how much controversy there is in RL idol groups these days.

4. Why not a foreigner? Though she doesn't always have to be blonde, even a red hair brunette will do, it's not really that hard to differentiate a fiery red-haired Japanese girl or a rose-haired shy Japanese girl from a red-haired foreigner.

And instead of the usual suspects like the Americans, Russians and the Western Europeans (British, French, German, Italian, etc.), how about the more exotic ones like the Nordics (Finns, Swedes, Norwegians, Flemish, and Danes), Eastern Europeans (Hungarians, Bulgarians, Polish, Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian, Bosnian, Latvian, Estonian, Lithuanian, etc.), Latin Americans (Brazilians, Venezuelans, Argentinians, etc.), Africans (not just white Boers of South Africa, but any of the black African tribes), and other Asians (Chinese though they are prominent in anime anyways, Taiwanese, Koreans, Filipinas, Thais, Vietnamese, etc.) ?

5. Nothing wrong with that, but it can be better if there are no representatives from the student council and the latter could just approve idol clubs right away instead of evoking a passive-aggressive response.

6. Nothing wrong with that, but Hanamaru really reminds me of a certain popular Yo-Kai.

7. Less squeaky voices now because the seiyuu in Aquors are real teens, unlike in Muse where some of the seiyuu are actually old women who have to really squeeze in their voices just to sound teenish.

1. A-Rise = 3 members, enough said.

2. Very well, I can buy that. However, it does not excuses exactly the same personality and even design.

3. Have you watched episode 3? Chicka has exactly same friends and even more. Classmates who helped her to set a concert and elder sister who pretty much gathered whole town to boost her morale. Sorry, but Honoka had it harder.

4. Nothing against foreigners, one myself where I live. But chances of a talented foreigner being a school idol in every school are slim.
I'm glad we at least agree on the hair and nationality.

5. Exactly, a supporting president would be welcomed for once.

Originally Posted by Nork22

This I would love to see.

Don't worry. For once I'll actually take my time to do it. But only when the show is over so I could put it all in one bunch.

[judasmartel]

Originally Posted by kitten320

3. Have you watched episode 3? Chicka has exactly same friends and even more. Classmates who helped her to set a concert and elder sister who pretty much gathered whole town to boost her morale. Sorry, but Honoka had it harder.

Agreed on the last part because the stakes are higher. Failure could mean you lose your future along with those of your fellow schoolmates.

[Triple_R]

I'm replying to this here since this is the thread for Sunshine vs. OG comparisons.

Originally Posted by Requiem-x

This was as much Maru's episode as it was Yohane's, and my god, it was awesome. Basically a remix of the halloween episode, but so much better! From that surprise at the beginning, to Maru being absolutely adorable, to Ruby being the cutest fallen angel (you know you'd descend with her), to Riko's olympic jump, it was just fun, and once again, the right amount of drama (Maru and Ruby's was stronger overall, but this still worked very well) and cheesiness. It's really nice to see Yohane is her own thing, and more importantly, Chika and the others celebrate that.

Sunshine Episode 5 was an amusingly entertaining episode, but I don't think it's "so much better" than the Halloween episode of Love Live Season 2.

Love Live Season 2's Halloween episode was fantastic. It had a wonderful blend of drama and comedy. It's honestly one of the funniest anime episodes I've ever watched. While Sunshine Episode 5 had a couple very amusing moments, it never had as many for me as the Halloween episode did. Watching μ's members imitate each other was hilarious. So was watching them dress up as KISS, which still ranks as one of the most wonderfully surprising moments I've ever seen in Love Live.

The Halloween episode also did a great job of showcasing A-RISE and furthering the rivalry between μ's and A-RISE. A-RISE's one big moment in the Halloween episode was highly amusing and alluring, in my view.

And personally, I'm more impressed by the Halloween episode's wide variety of very nice costumes than 5 Aqours girls dressing up like lite versions of Yohane (to be fair, Sunshine Episode 5's approach to the costumes was good for the purposes of Episode 5, but I still love the wondrous costume variety in LL Season 2's Halloween episode). To cap it all off, the Halloween episode has one of the very best μ's live performances and songs.

Sunshine Episode 5 was a good episode, but I wouldn't put it as high as I would the Halloween episode.

And everyone is saying the school closing down plot is coming down at last. Well, if anything, it will at least have more impact this time, since the girls' friendship has already been established: If the school closes down, there's no Aqours, unless everyone moves together to another schoool, but that could be a problem with Riko.

The school closing down plot in Season 1 had strong impact, in my opinion. Episode 1 of LL's first season made it very clear to me how much saving the school meant to multiple μ's characters. Honoka was the focus, but it was also clear how much Eli and others cared about saving the school.

Personally, I liked how the original Love Live had the school closure issue take off from the very first episode, giving the plot a strong sense of momentum and weight. It's probably fine if Sunshine handles this differently (presuming that Episode 5 cliffhanger moment is what some of us suspect it is), but the original's approach did not lessen it's impact, in my view. It will be interesting to see how this will all play out if Sunshine has it's own "save the school" plot.

[playmaker2k]

Maybe some of the idols from the original that never got animated will show up here.

Since we only got a cameo poster from them in the original, I wouldn't mind seeing "The Midnight Cats" be Aqours' rivals.
They should be voiced by Kanahana & Hayamin so you know their broken and will test your loyalty with every fiber of your being.

The suffering will be amazing.

[Pen3]

Originally Posted by playmaker2k

Maybe some of the idols from the original that never got animated will show up here.

Since we only got a cameo poster from them in the original, I wouldn't mind seeing "The Midnight Cats" be Aqours' rivals.
They should be voiced by Kanahana & Hayamin so you know their broken and will test your loyalty with every fiber of your being.

The suffering will be amazing.

But the Midnight Cat's already graduated, are they still considered school idols? I though Love Live was a competition for schools? I honestly don't remember so i may be wrong.

[Benigmatica]

Originally Posted by Pen3

But the Midnight Cat's already graduated, are they still considered school idols? I though Love Live was a competition for schools? I honestly don't remember so i may be wrong.

I think it's either the Midnight Cats has gone professional just like A-RISE, or it's just that they changed the lineup as shown in Episode 3.

[novalysis]

So Eight Episodes in, and Aqours finally receives their empty auditorium moment, although its worse because this happens relative to rival groups, and comes right off their full auditorium debut and breaking into the top 100. I think at this stage, you've got to be desperately clinging on to the thesis that Sunshine is a rehash of the original, to argue this isn't truly new ground. But I suppose you can, and make an argument that this is no different than Muse debut to an empty theater, and everything is just a difference in form.

Similarly, you could draw parallels to the Third Years being failed idols and Nico being a failed idol. Except, this time, it is Nico being a failed idol and Eli and Nozomi joining into the bonfire in their first year, and Nozomi's tries to protect her juniors from suffering the same fate by actively opposing Eli's efforts to encourage her juniors going as far as to simply coldly walk pass Eli's outstretched arms and coldly telling Eli to stop before more people get hurt. While Nico comforts her imouto and delivers a good and highly productive post morterm and shares the disaster that was the Sempais journey.

At which point, it is clear you've got to be very desperate to argue that Sunshine is a rehash, since none of this major, crucial plot development featured, except in it's truncated form with Nico's backstory. Indeed, even if you make that argument, there is no denying the authors took a throw away idea that was raised and then resolved in one episode in Love Live about Nico being a failed idol; upscaling it and delivering content that is not merely one of Sunshine's most emotionally strongest, but possibly worthy of being called one of the most emotive sub-plots in the franchise yet in both series.

The starting positions have moved, the worst offenders have nuanced into absolutely seperate characters. Chika is no longer a Honoka clone, she has exhibited a level of depth and self-reflection and even self-doubt Honoka never has. Dia is no longer a Nico in terms of Idol obsession, nastiness and perfectionism with Eli's authority and dignity, she has branched out with the dynamics between her , Eli and Kanan, and between her sisters strongly making her unique, and humanized herself beyond her original antagonist role in the first three episodes.

I dare the LL Genwunners in this thread, if they are still here to dispute this thesis that by this time and hasn't dropped the show out of disgust over the rehashing the school is closing plot, LL Sunshine has truly sufficiently twisted the formula of the original, and even if the characters borrow some archtypes from the muse counterparts, once they've been executed and this archtypes run, that truly unique individuals emerge.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by novalysis

Chika is no longer a Honoka clone, she has exhibited a level of depth and self-reflection and even self-doubt Honoka never has.

I strongly disagree with this. Honoka has shown loads of depth throughout the original LL, and especially in the LL Movie. She took the challenges presented by Eli and Umi very seriously, and it's clear that she gave those challenges a lot of thought and consideration (one good example of this is how Honoka made the choice to reach out to Eli in Episode 8 when most μ's members objected to it).

Honoka showed plenty of self-reflection right in the very first episode of Love Live. She thought deeply on her school, and on her family's history in the school, and on how to save it. This resonated very strongly with me, much more than Chika's reaction to facing a similar situation with her own school.

As for self-doubt? I don't know how you get much more self-doubt than "I quit". Certainly not one my favorite moments for Honoka's character, but it obviously shows plenty of self-doubt. As does reversing that decision a mere episode later.

For what it's worth, I don't consider Chika a Honoka clone. I think Chika is a more introverted character, which is not a compliment or a criticism, just an observation. I should note that I myself have taken a psychology test which shows I'm INFP. In other words, I'm an introvert myself.


To address your core argument - that LL Sunshine is not a rehash - I actually don't have particularly strong feelings either way on that. There's many differences, and there's many similarities, and so I can understand people coming to different conclusions here. But one thing stands out to me in your argument.

If Love Live Sunshine is not a rehash of the OG, then it should be easy for you to sing its virtues (or criticize its weaknesses) without having to bash the OG or its characters. After all, if LL Sunshine is not a rehash then there should be plenty to talk about without referencing the OG at all. So the best argument you could make for LL Sunshine not being a rehash is to express, in considerable detail, what you like (and/or dislike) about the show without referencing the OG at all. So frankly, novalysis, you devoting almost your entire post to trashing the OG in comparison to Sunshine is not a particularly good approach to take if you want to demonstrate that Sunshine is not a rehash. Nor is being crudely confrontational to those who might disagree with you, through you using a pejorative term from the Pokemon fandom and applying it to some LL fans. If you want to change people's minds, it might be a good idea to not insult them.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If Love Live Sunshine is not a rehash of the OG, then it should be easy for you to sing its virtues (or criticize its weaknesses) without having to bash the OG or its characters.

Wasn't the point of the comment to compare both series, to show that they're actually pretty different?
I mean, you could literally delete all the stuff about the original from the comment and that'd be singing its virtues. Comparing it to the original is just protocol since the that's what the thread is about.
Also, is it really bashing? I mean, I love Muse and nothing felt offensive.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

Wasn't the point of the comment to compare both series, to show that they're actually pretty different?

And in the process of attempting that, novalysis mostly discusses differences of degree. In any event, I stand by my argument - If Sunshine is not a rehash, then there should be plenty that can be said about it without referencing the OG at all.

I mean, you could literally delete all the stuff about the original from the comment and ...

There wouldn't be much left.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In any event, I stand by my argument - If Sunshine is not a rehash, then there should be plenty that can be said about it without referencing the OG at all.

Then this isn't the thread for it? The episode threads have discussed the positive and negative aspects of Sunshine. I don't see why it has to be said here as well without a comparison to the original.

edit: Well long story short I agree with both if that's possible to believe.

[Triple_R]

After thinking on it more... Sure, I wouldn't call Sunshine a rehash. I hope it's differences get played up more the rest of the way, but in addition to some of novalysis's points, I really do think that Saint Snow stands out as a very different type of rival group for this show.

Saint Snow is not A-RISE. Saint Snow has a more serious dark ballad feel to their vocals, while A-RISE is more catchy techno. Saint Snow has a certain edgy intensity while A-RISE is more smooth sex appeal. I really like both groups, and their styles are very different.

I'd also say the OG put more emphasis on the school closure and maybe on "school spirit", while Sunshine is putting more emphasis on school idol competitions for a sheer "love of the game". Sunshine will probably end up being the more Sports Anime show of the two. And the starting points are significantly different. School idols become an highly appealing and fun means to an end throughout much of OG's 1st season, while in Sunshine the central character is all about being a sparkling school idol like her heroes from the very first episode.

[novalysis]

Ok I do feel I might have downplayed Honoka's accomplishments too far, and mis-represented her in my post. For that, I apologize, and my only defense perhaps, is that it was written very soon after waking up. Honoka had her own, detailed character arc with certain kinds of growth, but I think her fundamental optimism has not been challenged in essence, largely because the original Love Live was not that kind of show. But I do stand by the idea that Honoka's trials are not Chika's trials, and Chika's responses (on a verbal, body language and action level) may not necessarily be Honoka's responses.

But I think a more thorough discussion of what we exactly mean by rehash here, and what we mean by character similarity does need be responded here. So, I'm going to put forth what I hope is one possible framework where Sunshine/Aqours can be accessed in comparison to Muse. There will be four parts to this.

Firstly, I would touch on the most relevant challenge sequels in a franchise will face. Secondly, I would draw a possible framework of dimensions (which are by no means exhaustive) that we might compare sequels with originals within a franchise. Thirdly, I would talk about the unique narrative challenge that Sunshine imposed on itself as a result of its' choices, and how these challenges by no means dooms Sunshine to be a rehashed, but does put a higher burden on Sunshine to avoid being a clone of the original. Fourthly, I am going to talk about how characters can differ to each other, and the unique challenges posed by differentiating a character of the same archtype put in a broadly similar starting scenario; which I think might be better able to help in discussing the relative similarity or differences between Aqours and Muse characters.

I: The challenges of Sequels

Franchise sequels do face many challenges, but I think the most pertinent one lies in the delicate balancing act that Sequels have to perform. For all sequels, some kind of compromise between similarities with their predecessors, and differentiation are needed.

Too great a difference might remove the essence of what made the Franchise successful to begin with, too great a similarity might lead to charges that the sequels are merely a rehash, and insufficiently transformative to warrant a watch. This problem is not confined to either anime or any literary work in general, this problem also occurs in successful Video Game franchises. It is this balancing act that would play a large and crucial part in making or breaking Sunshine, though certainly not the only consideration.

II: What do we mean by rehashes?

Another way to repackage this question, is to ask how a sequel might choose to perform that balancing act of similarities and differences. I think there are several relevant dimensions that can be conceived off, in terms of similarities or differences. Again, this is not an exhaustive list of how a sequel could differ from its' original.

1. Genre
- Works usually have a primary genre, and emphasis on various other secondary genres. Gundam is a Mecha anime, it's also a War anime. Love Live is a Idol Anime, but it differs from it's competition by it's invocation of a grand premise out of Sports anime.

2. Premise and execution.
- I combine both together, because the same premise can create very different executions that gradually alter the entire trajectory of the plot away from the original. Even having similar premises does not doom a sequel into a rehash if the execution differs, is twisted and/or subverted.
- Also, premises occur on different levels, from a general, vague premise, to the same general premise varying in more speciic ways.

3. Setting
- Setting is divided into time and space.

4. Characterization
- How characterization differs is important enough it gets an entire section of it's own.

III: The Narrative Burden of Love Live Sunshine
Using the framework established in the previous section, I'd like to explore the unique narrative burden Sunshine takes upon itself.

1. Obviously, most sequels do not differ by genre. Some sequels though, might invoke differing combinations of genres, but the primary genre remains the same. Certainly, it is not reasonable to anticipate that Love Live will no longer be an idol anime, being an idol anime is an integral to franchise identity as Mecha is to Gundam.

However, what can be changed is the relative emphasis of the genre mix. Love Live is a curious blend of the Idol genre, combined with Slice of Life Comedy and Sports anime genre. After all, it's a world where Amateur School Idoling is a sport with a tournament. However, Sunshine could potentially put an even heavier emphasis on the Sports Anime genre down the line, as the set-up for the audience to buy this development has been completed.

There have been remarks in Episode 7 and 8, that Sunshine seems to be highlighting it's identity as a Sports Anime more aggressively than the original. This is subject to contention, and I think the jury is out for now, but the kind of defeat and the dramatic tension seen in Episode 8 I think is something that tends to be seen more in Sports Anime than in the Idol Genre. If the premise presented in Episode 8, that the standards have sharply increased, and the serious business of competitive School Idoling stance of Saint Snow is not a one off but a persistent theme from here on out, I think a strong case can be made that Sunshine has opted to focus on the Sports genre inherent in it's premise more than the original.

2. Premise. There are several layers of premise that can be considered. We can think of the higher level premises which are more general in nature. As an illustration of what I mean when I say general , consider this description of Love Live: Amateur idols in school, called School idols form a club and compete in a national tournament that combines Singing and dancing. A less general, more specific layer of this premise adds the detail that this idol group works their way to victory.

Of course, there are many ways the specifics of this premise could occur, many variations of the same general premise For example, said Idol club might be a Light Music Club that decides to convert to a School Idol Club because of the greater attention and prestige of School Idol tournaments and limited competitive avenues for Light Music Clubs. Or a girl who loves School Idols shows up as a first year to a rising School Idol club, who will win this tournament this year, as a result of previous years of work put in by seniors to get the club to that point. The girl must earn a place and the respect of her Sempais. I have a sensing that this approach would not have alienated the Love Live fanbase, and would have been regarded as sufficiently similar to be counted as the next generation of Love Live, while definitely being quite different.

The problem with Aqours is that the writers have chosen to play very conservatively with how far their sequel premise deviates from the original. Indeed, the premise sounds almost exactly the same: a start my own club premise. A second year, who is supposedly quite ordinary starts her own School Idol Club after being inspired by a previous group of School Idols.

Immediately, this premise locks in the first half a cour at least to various necessary stations of canon that have to be imitated one way or another - there must be a debut performance, members must be won over and so on. And because of these similarities, the charges of rehashes begins, and the big challenge is to keep the execution of these premises sufficiently fresh and differentiated from the first series.

From that perspective, the substantial Muse callbacks, and the deliberate parallels between Hanamaru and Rin's recruitment and Hayano and Rin, and so on are potential stumbling blocks to differentiation, if they cannot be framed as deliberate parallels that are set ups for some pay off subversion later on or even in episode itself.

To make things worse, any critic would have to one way or the other make up his mind of which stations of canon were necessary, and whether the following of those stations was sufficiently unique for a rehash. The debut performance of Sunshine was launched under different circumstances with a very different outcome. Was this enough? I'd think most would say yes if this different outcome soon produces deviations in execution that differentiate the sequel from the original.

However, because the similarities in premise between Sunshine and the original is so specific, I think many people unfortunately will dismiss the show as a rehash. The unique burden from Sunshine is to show that the same premise can be freshly executed and run differently, and if those skeptics run by the three episode rule, then Sunshine is in deep trouble with these skeptics unless it deviates from stations of canon.

Note, having a same premise does not doom Sunshine to be a rehash. It all depends on the execution. But the execution is likely to take time to fully diverge, especially when the main lead is drawn from the same arch-type.

3. Setting

As previously stated, settings can diverge in location and time.

Sunshine has an opportunity to distinguish themselves, as the same scenario is run in a country-side rural town by the beach in sight of Mount Fuji. I think Sunshine has been rather clever in it's use of location setting, for example, in creating a diverging outcome in the debut performance; but then again, a naysayer could claim it's low hanging fruit. Here's one way however, that setting has played a HUGE role in creating a divergence.

At this point of time, the School is Closing subplot is close to resolution for Muse. It is no where near resolution right now, and simple convenient good Open House, which worked because of Otonokizaka's location in Tokyo, cannot work in Numazu and Uranohoshi. We might groan at the School is closing plot to be run once more, but the delicious thing about this sub-plot is that it is not going to be resolved in anyway similar to Muse, even if Chika was Honoka with serial numbers filed off. In-fact, there is a good chance that this quest will end in a failure, and after Episode 8, I am convinced that Sunshine is not afraid to dump torrential floods on their cast.

It also has an opportunity to exploit the divergence in time - because of the time that has passed, and as the Idol Sport has developed, so to has the level of competition and sheer quantity of competition, which means the path to victory cannot be the same as Muse, as everyone has figured out and moved beyond Muse and A-RISE. We had to wait till Episode 8 for their payoff, although the very sharp deviations in the Third Year sub-plot as we've learned, is also a result of the deviation in time.

Come to think of it, Sunshine would have benefited from In Media Res, where the Zero Votes scene is instead shown at the very start. Now, that would keep audiences locked in for the payoff, and I think tolerate the stations of canon better. The references to Muse would probably be less annoying, since most people would catch on quickly that there would likely be a reckoning for Chika's Muse idolatry, and if it's annoying, the comeuppance would be both glorious and emotionally sharp. That might have been one way to use time as a differentiating factor, and avoid the charge of a rip-off.

I think the big broad burden still remains. Has Sunshine sufficiently executed the same Premise differently and in fresh ways, that it has not been a rip-off? I think from an episodic perspective, the deviations were minor. But from the standpoint of the first Eight episodes, it is very, very clear that the small deviations in execution are starting to result in sharp, snowballing deviations in plot development, resulting in the stations of canon burning in a giant bonfire in Episode 7 and 8, when Chika's Muse imitation mind-set is put to the sword cruelly. If LLSS proceeds to have Chika locked in being in a "Muse imitation" mood in subsequent episodes and being a source of shoving Muse references into our face, then this series has gone full retard. I personally doubt this is going to happen.

And there are more to come - for example, the starting deviation regarding how Chika recruited Riko and was initially a duo with You, contrast with how Honoka was originally in a trio. And we are seeing signs that the Duo of Chika and You is not magically going to turn into a settled, secure trio of Chika, You and Riko. On one hand, there's the Aquarium PV, but even without knowledge of that PV, I think too much foreshadowing of a reckoning for the Second Years has been put in place - one of the most blatant, in my view is how You sticks out as a sore thumb compared to the rest of Aqours, on the basis of her recruitment. Chika offered every girl in Aqours something so far. Except for You. Riko cannot simply usurp (unintentionally) You's place as Chika's confidante without the seeds of a future crisis. The small little deviation that started from how Chika had to recruit her third member, while Honoka got the first three members with relative ease might seem small, but is steadily wrecking havoc with the parallels to early Muse.

But the problem with LLSS general approach of similar premises that are undermined by smaller subversion in detail, is that it does not satisfy the impatient viewer. Furthermore, it's quite likely made the task of differentiation, much much harder than it needed to. The strategy of steadily accruing deviations from formula building up to a completely new story that is clearly unlike the original is, narratively, a very interesting tactic, but its one that requires a patient viewer to come with the mind-set not to see LLSS as a rehash, or perhaps, more optimistically, looking for the foreshadowings, setups and minor divergences that are going to result in a huge payoff down the line.

The impatient critic might say the payoff must come in Episode 3 or bust, or might point out that at this time, 6 hours of screen time has passed and Episode 8 is way too late for such a payoff. Which to me is a shame. I don't think the producers took the Lazy approach - the truly Lazy approach would have involved using a different arch-type, and different starting premise to create your sequel "differences." They took the hard and difficult road of starting with the same premise and slowly, over 7 episodes, create minor but cumulative executions in divergences that unveils the real face of Love Live Sunshine, unique and harsher than it's parent.

I will devote another post to characterization, given that it's going to be probably a long section.

[novalysis]

4. Onto characterization.

When is a character a clone of one another? When can we condemn a character as unoriginal, and when can we confidently claim that a character has sufficiently distinguished him or herself from another character from a older story that he or she is based from?

There are many ways of course, for characters to be distinguished from one another, and many possible frames. But I would like to suggest this particular frame for comparing a character in Aqours, and an identifiable counterpart in Muse, to access whether a character in Love Live Sunshine is a mere copy, or are sufficiently distinct that they feel like their own separate fictitious persons.

I can see three tactics that characters can be varied through, in the context of sequels or spinoffs in a franchise. None of these tactics are necessarily mutually exclusive with one another, and I am sure there are more ways.

Firstly, you could alter the arch-type of a character - a Hotblooded warrior one season who fights by instinct and will, could be replaced with a mercurial, thoughtful and analytical tactician that fights by cunning in the same iteration of a Mecha anime. This is probably the easiest way to distinguish your characters. Such an alteration does not necessarily require you to move a sequel protagonist out of the arch-type of the original protagonist - even a different variant could suffice, for example, both Nico and Yohane are arguably similar by their Chuuni tendencies, but one reason why claiming that Yohane is a Nico clone is tricky, and in my opinion an attempt at grasping at straws, is because Yohane is clearly a different type of Chuuni from Nico.

The second tactic is to alter the backstory of a character, the starting conditions of a character that will affect how the character evolves as the story progresses. For example, a hot blooded character might actually have some kind of past involving personal loss, where his hotblooded exterior conceals a person in mourning. Or he could simply come from an ordinary background, his hot-bloodedness being a trait that comes from being socialized in a hotblooded family. Alternatively, you can alter the people around a character, the status of a character, and so on. A new person entering the life of a duo, is going to trigger a different dynamic set compared to a trio who has grown up together, and hence different paths of character development.

Thirdly, characters can be distinguished through each other by subjecting two similar characters to different sets of experiences, and hence through different character path ways. Or to same experiences, with subtle changes and responses that can snowball.

There is a fourth element, involving superficial elements, such as character tics and character design, which I think I will lay aside in my analysis for now. I think they are superficial and unhelpful for the discussion at hand, in an industry where Only Six faces is constant, and where character designers are possibly the same.

I think ultimately, considering all these three elements can shed some light to a helpful counterfactual - how will for example, Honoka have responded to Chika's dilemmas? If you can imagine Honoka in place of Chika without anything changing, then it is likely that the writers have failed to sufficiently distinguish Honoka from Chika.

With these three elements in mind, I am going to try to make a comparative to Honoka with Chika. Keeping in mind that I've only done a partial rewatch of parts of the first season of the original (the ones involving Eli joining and the immediate episodes after) in recent months, I may have mis-remembered details, and am reliant on TV tropes, episode synopsis and the wiki to jog my memory, so corrections are greatly appreciated.

The idea of Arch-types I think sheds quite alot of light of why Chika being a Honoka clone is such a damning assertion that can hold some degree of currency even without explanation. The big problem with Chika's character is that she is literally based on the same arch-type, and is the same variant of Genki girl in the broadest strokes as Honoka. Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing - after all, in real-life, people may be similar to each other in some broad strokes and may even have similar personalities, and yet undergo different life experiences that produces subtle and small distinguishing differences. But just like choosing the same premise creates a higher burden on the authors in the tension between similarity and differentiation explained in the previous post, choosing the same arch-type for the lead generates a higher burden of writing quality needed to create a leading protagonist sufficiently different from her counterpart in some dimension - reactions and choices in narrative, pathos and burdens and obsessions, character development arcs so on, all those marks of character differentiation.

The fundamental problem of that Chika's character faces, is that she is the same arch-type as Honoka, outwardly. She seems similarly Genki, she seems to have thickness of skin to press an issue that she feels for, like Honoka, School idols becomes the first time she discovers a true passion. Yet immediately, we see some deviations from her character in the non archtype elements, her backstory, that lay the seeds of potential character differentiation, if they were borne out.

Let's start with two prominent differences in backstory between Honoka and Chika - the dynamics of the trio- Kanan, Chika, You, and Chika's status of youngest sister, which in turn results in the self consciousness she has that she is someone of whom no expectations have truly placed on her. The former produces one substantial difference - at least Honoka had the expectations of being an older sister if nothing else, Chika on the other hand can plausibly admit that the concept of expectations weighing on her is alien. In the latter, the differing dynamics of the trio results in a big deviation occurs - a new person enters Chika's life, Riko, and Unlike the original Love Live, Kanan is in a different year and declines Chika's offer. Right away, deviation. The Trio doesn't fall in line in Chika's case, but it takes a single episode for Honoka to get her trio behind her. Once again, there's the seeds of differences laid down.

Of course, the lazy approach would be to keep Chika's actions and moves similar to Honoka despite this development. And then Riko as an outsider, manages to dig deep into the inner mental world of Chika, and that's where we learn certain issues pertinent to Chika, don't exist with Honoka. This is not to say that Honoka had no issues, but the emphasis of Chika's issues, on her ordinariness and the lack of expectations weighs heavier on Chika's psyche and is played up for Chika's character to an extent the original series went into for Honoka. This is one illustration of how backstories do lay the seeds for divergences between characters of the same archtype that is necessary for Chika to avoid being a Honoka clone.

Let me conclude by briefly touching on the final tactic, the tactic of subjecting the same character archtype to slightly different experiences, and subtly different interactions. Two examples - the diverging results on the first performance, and the slightly greater role Chika plays in the details of recruiting the first years and Riko.

In the first performance, while Honoka experiences no audiences, Chika experiences a large audience, curtsy of the local community. This might seem like a small difference. Except, it lays the foundations for an earlier formation of a sense of obligation to continue her project. Now the local community has invested in her, "give up" is no longer even on the table.

And "give up" even becomes less of an option. As already mentioned, no Nozomi figure gave Riko the push. And yes, while Hanamaru pushed Ruby in the club - note two things. Firstly, Chika works on Ruby for the good part on four episodes. It was Chika who first extended, blatantly, and repeatedly the invite to Hanamaru and Ruby. And while this does not sound truly different from Honoka inviting Hayano once (correct me if I'm wrong), and Hanamaru pushing Ruby echoes Rin pushing Hayano (with a delicious inversion that Hanamaru doubts her athleticism but represents femininity, while Rin's athleticism was not the issue but the complex over her femininity was) - note something. One: Ruby and Hanamaru joined on a trial basis. Ruby joined while making it clear to Chika why she joins. Secondly, it is Chika who outright invites Hanamaru to truly join at the end of this episode, unlike the Hayano situation where Honoka essentially acquired Rin and Maki in the deal too. Small deviations based in detail, small seeds.

Yohane was a large deviation of experience. Here, while Chika implicitly offers Ruby something, and gives Hanamaru the final push herself, and won Riko by her own efforts, Chika outright offers Yohane sanctuary and acceptance.

The net result of those small deviations in the details of recruitment and a performance made successful by the local community, is what leads to the earlier realization that Chika now is responsible for leading this group she rallied together, invited herself, and personally convinced these girls to entrust their dreams to her. This leads to a much earlier realization that yes, Chika for the first time bears the expectation - of the community, of her team.

I don't think it's a coincidence by Episode 6 and 7 and 8, that Chika starts having private conversations with Riko about expectation and responsibility that I think, frankly, it's hard to imagine Honoka having at least before Honoka's end of season walkout. In other words, even small deviations in experiences can snowball into substantial differences in reactions and actions. Even Episode 7 shows this when Chika actively tries to coral her group (would Honoka have tried, in the first season in the same scenario? I don't think so.) And most certainly, by Episode 8, we see Chika responding to failure (that is in some ways partly a fault of her commitment to imitating Muse that she instilled in her team) being distinctively unlike Honoka's response to missing the chance of reaching the Love Live Finals.

It is still an open question how much more Chika would deviate from Honoka of course. And the problem with this approach of slowly differentiating characters of the same arch-types, is that Eight Episodes, by the standards of an impatient audience runs the risk of cementing the idea that Chika is nothing more than a clone of Honoka, whatever the subtle deviations from the same archtype. But I do think at this stage, Chika is heading from quite a different direction from Honoka, and already had those seeds of differences planted in her slightly different circumstances. Kindred spirits Chika is to Honoka, but the differences are subtle... and growing.

Personally, I think it's the hardest to demonstrate that Chika is her own person. Yohane uniqueness is probably the easiest to show, showing that Riko is neither Umi nor Maki nor some simple cross between both is fairly doable. Hanamaru is the Anti-thesis of Rin in arch-type, but showing there is more to her than that would require close character analysis. Showing that Dia and Mari are neither Eli nor Nozomi nor Nico has become much easier as the third year arc progresses, nor even a simple reshuffling of traits between the three third years of Muse. We don't know enough about Kanan, I think like Yohane, there is no true counter-part to Kanan, and at worst, she is a subversion of Nozomi. And You has not received her arc, but I think we are heading for an Aquarium like scenario for her (as it seems, quite a few people within the episode threads.) But because Chika parallels Honoka in so many ways, demonstrating that she is not Honoka requires careful examination of where parallels end and divergences begin.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by novalysis

Ok I do feel I might have downplayed Honoka's accomplishments too far, and mis-represented her in my post. For that, I apologize, and my only defense perhaps, is that it was written very soon after waking up. Honoka had her own, detailed character arc with certain kinds of growth, but I think her fundamental optimism has not been challenged in essence, largely because the original Love Live was not that kind of show. But I do stand by the idea that Honoka's trials are not Chika's trials, and Chika's responses (on a verbal, body language and action level) may not necessarily be Honoka's responses.

That's entirely fair, and well put. Apology accepted.

Here's how I view Chika in relation to Honoka at this point in Sunshine:

Chika is more introverted, intuitive, and sensitive to others.

Honoka is more extroverted, charismatic, and practical.


Chika is quicker to make deep connections with new people. Chika has already made a very deep connection with Riko, and Honoka never made a friendship that deep and that quickly (Honoka's friendship with Kotori/Umi is deep but it built over a long time of course). So I think Chika is the more intuitive person here. Chika is good at understanding other people deeply after she talks with them a little bit.

Honoka compensates for this relative lack of intuitiveness by being more charismatic and extroverted. There's a certain quickness and eagerness and ease to most of Honoka's interactions with others that stands out to me, whereas I sometimes get the sense that Chika is trying more when it comes to socializing with others (until/unless that deeper connection is made). Honoka is very assertive, and I can tell that socializing comes easily for her. There's a certain energy and high-spiritedness and colorfulness to Honoka that is infectious and draws attention. But Honoka isn't fully aware of this herself, as one of the LL Season 1 episodes made clear. Honoka didn't really view herself as μ's leader, even though everybody else in μ's did. And that's because Honoka gained support by sheer force of will, while Chika's approach is more focused and nuanced and precise. Honoka is a blowtorch, Chika is a scalpel, might be one way to look at it.

Chika's high sensitivity means she more readily feels the pain of her school idol teammates, and hence is trying hard to put on a brave face. Honoka is more practical, and hence will admit failure quickly. Both approaches have their pros and cons, and they certainly reflect different personalities. Now, I think that Honoka cares a lot about her friends and her family. I don't think Honoka is lacking in altruism. But Chika makes those deep emotional connections quicker, so she's less likely to say, inadvertently piss off someone like Honoka has done to Nico and Umi sometimes.

Profession-wise, Honoka is well-suited to be a politician, a sports announcer, or someone working in marketing or sales.

Chika is well-suited to be a psychologist, a school principal, or someone working in human resources.

Here's one interpretation of Chika that fans of the OG might like - Imagine Kotori trying to be Honoka. I think that comes very close to capturing Chika's current character, at least at a personality level. I honestly think Chika's personality shares just as much in common with Kotori as it does with Honoka.


So there you go. Some thoughts on how Chika compares to Honoka from one of Anime Suki's biggest Honoka fans. I hope it was helpful, and came off as decently fair.