Macross Delta - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Evil by complacency? M7 featured a number of good NUNS officers against a backdrop of generalized hidebound indifference. MF made NUNS more incompetent and added actual conspiracies. Delta has mostly used the "indifferent" approach, but it could be said that NUNS has been at best an obstacle for the protagonists for the last 22 years.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by AkitoW013

Because some NUNS being portrayed as incompetent, uncaring and making questionable decisions means the whole NUNS is evil right?

Did I say they were all evil? The ones in Delta are on the incompetent, uncaring and obviously moral corrupted side for what we've seen.

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

Evil by complacency? M7 featured a number of good NUNS officers against a backdrop of generalized hidebound indifference. MF made NUNS more incompetent and added actual conspiracies. Delta has mostly used the "indifferent" approach, but it could be said that NUNS has been at best an obstacle for the protagonists for the last 22 years.

A higher ranked guy in the central Government of the NUNs was the main villain for the 30th Anniversary game. Thinking they cannot do wrong is fairly naive.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Thess

Sure, post the screencap about this. I'll be waiting.

Seriously, are you completely naive when the NUN representative has a "Totally Evil Guy" design and characterization?

Better Official Setting Material.
http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...ionWeapons.php

Use Restrictions After the Interstellar War
In the "Galaxy Treaty", which was concluded after the interstellar war, the operation of reaction weapons was restricted. Thereafter, as a general rule, reaction weapons were not used in normal combat.

Requirements Under the Galactic Treaty
Due to the Galaxy Treaty, the permission of the New Unified Government on the Earth was needed in order to use reaction weapons. However, under the New Unified Charter's exception clauses, if the administrative head authorizes it, reaction weapons could be used in emigrant fleets.

Not the first time military officers from Earth sphere are idiots but you have to admit the NUN has limited options at the moment.

Earth don't control these planets anymore since the decentralization.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Better Official Setting Material.
http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...ionWeapons.php

Not the first time military officers from Earth sphere are idiots but you have to admit the NUN has limited options at the moment.

Earth don't control these planets anymore since the decentralization.

I mean in the show. Where is your proof that Ragna natives approve the NUNS plan of bombing their planet ruins? Give me a screencap, not some useless trivia that lacks any weight as for Delta. Because we saw a NUN Earth representative claiming it was their call to drop a bomb or not. Not the Ragna people, but theirs. In a show about respecting culture and all that, their answer is to destroy culture. Destroying culture and patrimony weights more than killing a life in Macross, if you actually get the world building. They are proving Keith right. I'm sure Epsilon will be the final villain, but those guys in the NUNS aren't really portrayed in a good light. So they would be obstacles not help, to reach a solution.

The only ones with a good idea of what to do is Walkure.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Alhazred

As someone on another board noted, you don't have to be the best combatant in a unit to be a ranking officer with command responsibilities. Mirage already knows the capabilities of the pilots in Delta and she already has their trust; bringing in a seasoned outside officer as the new Delta 2 would also be a solid choice, but promoting Mirage isn't a terrible choice per se. That said, given their dire circumstances bringing in a seasoned officer would be the more realistic choice, but i guess we're going for trial by fire here.

And she earned their trust by being miserable combatant, right? To be honest anyone would look bad compared to Messer so there is this.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Thess

A higher ranked guy in the central Government of the NUNs was the main villain for the 30th Anniversary game. Thinking they cannot do wrong is fairly naive.

The NUN didn't declare war. The Windermere did. And the Windermere did not at any point claim they started the war for justice, instead they believe in Manifested Destiny, that they are racially superior and deserve a larger empire. If they actually had any sympathetic cause they certainly haven't told anybody.

And I would have thought that they would have broadcasted their moral superiority if they actually think that. They have not.

The side who declared war is the villain until proven otherwise. So far the "otherwise" hasn't happened.

Yes, there are some at NUN who want to use nukes. No, that doesn't make them evil. It is silly to think Windermere should be given a fair fight. And of course the man who suggested the use of nukes would be shown in a sinister way; we are talking about a Japanese anime here. But just because that is the case doesn't mean he was wrong to suggest it. It is a valid option and fully justified.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Yes, there are some at NUN who want to use nukes. No, that doesn't make them evil. It is silly to think Windermere should be given a fair fight. And of course the man who suggested the use of nukes would be shown in a sinister way; we are talking about a Japanese anime here. But just because that is the case doesn't mean he was wrong to suggest it. It is a valid option and fully justified.

Trampling over the rights of the habitants of a planet to decide if they wanted to be nuked or not is indeed the definition of villain in my book. Because they are showing exactly what the Windermerians have been accusing since the beginning: that the natives don't really have rights to govern their own planets. This is the beginning of the end to rip off the mask of whoever is administrating this sector.

If next episode that bomb is set off and we see a hole like the one in Windermere, then we'll know which side is lying.

[Tak]

Whenever someone mentions Lady M, I always think of Milia for some reason.

- Tak

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Thess

Trampling over the rights of the habitants of a planet to decide if they wanted to be nuked or not is indeed the definition of villain in my book. Because they are showing exactly what the Windermerians have been accusing since the beginning: that the natives don't really have rights to govern their own planets. This is the beginning of the end to rip off the mask of whoever is administrating this sector.

If next episode that bomb is set off and we see a hole like the one in Windermere, then we'll know which side is lying.

They already have their own planet, they got their independence. This has nothing to do with their right to govern, but their right to conquer.

If you want to conquer, then you get nuked. There is no mask; Windermere got greedy and think they deserve other people's planets.



Just speaking personally for a moment, I hate Manifest Destiny bullshit. I hate real life people being brainwashed into thinking their race deserved to dominate over others because it is their birthright to. Europe did it, USA do it, and Asia certainly does it. Imperial Japan did it before and China is doing this now. I have no tolerance for any race that think they can declare war because of some cultural right, and if they get nuked for it then good riddance.

[Tenzen12]

Sorry to tell you but Planet NUNS going to nuke happens not be Windermere, but Ragna, one of their own...

So yeah, if you think Germany waging war against rest of world woul be legit reason for USA to nuke Great Britain their ally I guess you could agree with NUNS policy too.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Sorry to tell you but Planet NUNS going to nuke happens not be Windermere, but Ragna, one of their own...

There can be more than one nuke.

For story reasons Windermere would likely not get nuked due to plot. But if the war was allowed to progress then that's what would happen.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

They already have their own planet, they got their independence. This has nothing to do with their right to govern, but their right to conquer.

If you want to conquer, then you get nuked. There is no mask; Windermere got greedy and think they deserve other people's planets.

Just speaking personally for a moment, I hate Manifest Destiny bullshit. I hate real life people being brainwashed into thinking their race deserved to dominate over others because it is their birthright to. Europe did it, USA do it, and Asia certainly does it. Imperial Japan did it before and China is doing this now. I have no tolerance for any race that think they can declare war because of some cultural right, and if they get nuked for it then good riddance.

Who even cares. I'm not discussing Windermerians or your personal thoughts about their Manifest Destiny which only Roids cares about, I'm discussing the NUN guys in the show are positioned as antagonists.

Did you even watch the episode? A bunch of humans decided to dive in into the ruins of RAGNA and strapped bombs on them without asking permission to anyone. They came to lord over people, destroy their patrimony and planet and didn't ask their input.

There's no a single Ragnanian in that mission because we saw all of them with equipment and they breathe underwater. How the hell are the NUNS agents supposed to be portrayed as good when Chaos is opposed to their actions. Hell, they are so obviously evil that Arad, Ernest and Kaname disliked that guy since they saw him. While, when they spoke of Gramia and having to fight him, looked saddened and praised him. Learn to read the cue of your protagonists. Obviously Windermerians are antagonists for now, but the reaction of the "good guys" to fight them is reluctance and sadness while they hate the NUNS guy.

The NUNS representatives last episode didn't show up as Delta squad and Walkure allies, they are showed as obstacle and antagonist. They are endangering Ragna. Furthermore, they are only proving Keith right on what he told Roid. Good job. The only one with a good head on their shoulders are the idols.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Thess

Who even cares. I'm not discussing Windermerians or your personal thoughts about their Manifest Destiny which only Roids cares about, I'm discussing the NUN guys in the show are positioned as antagonists.

Did you even watch the episode? A bunch of humans decided to dive in into the ruins of RAGNA and strapped bombs on them without asking permission to anyone. They came to lord over people, destroy their patrimony and planet and didn't ask their input.

There's no a single Ragnanian in that mission because we saw all of them with equipment and they breathe underwater. How the hell are the NUNS agents supposed to be portrayed as good when Chaos is opposed to their actions (none of that soulful sadness that meant fighting Gramia but they dislike them on sight).

Churchill attacked and sank the French Navy unprovoked after France had an Armistice with the Germans. You take out what you need to take out to win the war. That's what it meant to fight wars. That's what Windermeres have started, what war meant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack...-el-K%C3%A9bir

Areas under the control of the enemy are targets. That's how it goes.

[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

And she earned their trust by being miserable combatant, right? To be honest anyone would look bad compared to Messer so there is this.

Er... no ; i would assume that an officer generally earns the trust of subordinates by some combination of making good strategic and tactical decisions, giving useful guidance and support and showing concern for their well-being. The first item aside, Mirage has done all of the above for Hayate, so you can bet that he trusts her. Chuck... is even more underdeveloped than Mirage, so whether or not he trusts her hardly matters at all, really.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

There can be more than one nuke.

For story reasons Windermere would likely not get nuked due to plot. But if the war was allowed to progress then that's what would happen.

So you are saying that NUNS are good guys because they might one day hypothetically nuke Windermere and that these hypothetical nukes somehow justify very real nukes blown up on planet of their allies. Did I get it right?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

So you are saying that NUNS are good guys because they might one day hypothetically nuke Windermere and that these hypothetical nukes somehow justify very real nukes blown up on planet of their allies. Did I get it right?

Once the allies are conquered then they are a threat too.

What do you think it meant when Windermere declared war? No, seriously. What did you think it meant to have a WAR?

War means hundreds of thousands of people will die. Windermere declared war, the only thing that matters is which side would have the bulk of the casualties. Do you think war is a joke? What were you expecting?

[Tenzen12]

Ragna is not under Windermere control at all, though. Well honestly I basically agree and said it many times, that for nation to be able win in war equestionabl means might be needed... like mind control for example.

Point is as it's stand now NUNS have hardly any kind of moral high ground. When means are same who is good and who is bad is matter of perspective.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Thess

Trampling over the rights of the habitants of a planet to decide if they wanted to be nuked or not is indeed the definition of villain in my book. Because they are showing exactly what the Windermerians have been accusing since the beginning: that the natives don't really have rights to govern their own planets. This is the beginning of the end to rip off the mask of whoever is administrating this sector.

If next episode that bomb is set off and we see a hole like the one in Windermere, then we'll know which side is lying.

You really have a boner for Windermere don't you?

No it doesn't make Windermere in the right as they are out to enslave 8 billion people.

NUNS central wants to prevent that though a drastic choice.

Oh yes Ragna doesn't have its own NUNS taskforce going by dialog. What was mentioned was Ragnan Forces aboard Elysion with Delta Platoon. VF-31A Kairos not VF-171 Nighmare Plus used by NUNS. Meanwhile Kaos Combined Fleet protects Ragna.

This suggest Ragna forces are planetary militia like Zola Patrol. Windermere had its own militia forces which Ernest trained.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Churchill attacked and sank the French Navy unprovoked after France had an Armistice with the Germans. You take out what you need to take out to win the war. That's what it meant to fight wars. That's what Windermeres have started, what war meant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack...-el-K%C3%A9bir

Areas under the control of the enemy are targets. That's how it goes.

Sounds a lot like arguments I'd used for why Windermere are sympathetic antagonists a while back. They think the NUG WMD-ed their planet, so they'll use whatever methods they think necessary to defeat the NUG and force them out of the cluster.

I do have more of a problem with the "true heirs of the protoculture" thing but not all the Windermereans believe that (Keith certainly thinks its BS). Actually I would have said Roid was the only one who believed that, but Gramia mentioned on it in his speech last episode which suggests many Windermereans do believe it.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

You really have a boner for Windermere don't you?

No, actually, if you actually bothered to read, I stated the only ones who are doing anything right are Walkure. But I am unapologetically smug enough to say "I told you so" about my guesses about the NUN-Windermere outcome. Being vindicated by how I speculate the things will go isn't the same as whitewashing their actions (I don't rule out Epsilon as a final villain and the reason behind the warfare, however, I also don't rule out this guy or others like him nuking Windermere ruins and framing on the Windermere to save his own ass which is another case of "corrupted officer/branch within the NUNS" like Leon and other examples). Just like I feel vindicated that Freyja wants to reach Heinz to end this, because that was also my guess after their contact.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

No it doesn't make Windermere in the right as they are out to enslave 8 billion people.

Did I ever say that? They also looked free when the surrender note was issued.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

NUNS central wants to prevent that though a drastic choice.

Oh yes Ragna doesn't have its own NUNS taskforce going by dialog. What was mentioned was Ragnan Forces aboard Elysion with Delta Platoon. VF-31A Kairos not VF-171 Nighmare Plus used by NUNS. Meanwhile Kaos Combined Fleet protects Ragna.

This suggest Ragna forces are planetary militia like Zola Patrol. Windermere had its own militia forces which Ernest trained.

Pff. Sounds like a NUNS apologist here. They are hated by the population of Ragna. Chuck is disgusted by what they are doing. Can you be more blind to Mr. Bad Guys McEvil? Maybe they need to add an evil moustache and laughter if their smirk about nuking a planet didn't clue you in? It wasn't even subtle.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

When means are same who is good and who is bad is matter of perspective.

CHAOS is. Chaos isn't NUNS. Delta Squad and Walkure aren't affiliated to the NUNS.