F/SN UBW TV - Episode 17 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by bakato

Oh, thanks for the explanation. This had been bugging me for a while. I guess I did miss his mention that a command seal had been used, but I still think he had the best chance the moment he broke it off with Rin. With his strength, he could easily incapacitate Rin and kill Shiroe.

And then Rin would have had to face Caster and Kuzuki alone and would have simply been killed and Archer wouldn't get a chance to stealth kill Caster.

Originally Posted by bakato

Also, regarding the route in the original anime, why did Archer lose to Berserker? Was it because he was trying to hide his identity?

IIRC he still hadn't healed from the nearly fatal wound Saber gave him. Although it's debatable whether he would have won even if he had been at full power.

[Random14]

The Lancer vs Archer fight was a bit too talky, at least until Gae Bolg smashed through Rho Aias. I know the movie version of this fight isn't that great, but at least it was quick. But then being based on a VN does mean plenty of words, I know.

And possibly best showing of Gae Bolg, most of the rest of Lancer's life is suffering, awesome to see it at full power, and leaving a huge crater. Though Archer's shield was one rank below the original, I thought, but that's probably still near impenetrable.

Saber saving Shirou did seem abrupt, showing her shoving him out of the way would take that long? Oh well, at least Saber should be back to full power soon.

[Amarantine]

Anyway, finally watched the episode, and I thought it was easily the best in S2 so far. Archer and Lancer's red and blue combo really makes for the best fights, and I could gladly listen to Junichi Suwabe and Nobutoshi Canna banter back and forth for an entire episode. The fight does make it hard to believe Lancer really meant to fulfill his agreement with Rin not to kill Archer though.

Also, it's bothering me a bit that Rin won't let go off that puffy jacket. I don't mind Shirou's new look, but Rin's red blouse was perfect I felt and iconic enough that I miss it.

Oh, and I hope UBW looks better in the next episode than it did in the trailer for S2...

[bhl88]

In the novel, it is said that when a Servant is taking it easy, it means no use of the Noble Phantasm...

Otherwise, Archer would be dead the moment Lancer chooses to use Gae Bolg. afaik only a luck rank of A or higher would be able to stop a 1 hit kill....

[Rising Dragon]

Hmm, the way I see it, in Fate/zero, Gilgamesh refused to take the fight seriously against Lancelot, and as a result was humiliated pretty much every single time they fought, and whenever Arturia appeared, Gilgamesh became an afterthought, which would only enrage Gilgamesh--and as we saw with the dogfight, leave him open to a surprise attack.

This same Gilgamesh is still aware of such, and treated the next fight he was in much more seriously, employing a wider variety of attack strategies through the Gate and forcing Herakles to shield his Master. Despite this, he still left himself open to attack from Herakles, and the modicum of respect he showed Herakles seems to have stemmed from their both being demigods.

So basically, even when he should know better, Gilgamesh still refuses to fight all out and end things as quickly as he could, still refuses to believe that inferior combatants could still get the upper hand on him, which is what allows Shirou to overcome Gilgamesh in battle and defeat him with an ability that is tailor-made to defeat the King of Heroes. I see no reason why the exact same thing couldn't be done by EMIYA, who not only has the same ability, but better mana reserves and more battle experience, plus the advantages of being a Heroic Spirit. Given EMIYA's own attitude and his plethora of fakes, I see no reason why Gilgamesh would show him the respect he showed Iskander, and thus he's bound to lose.

Sure, Gilgamesh could crush EMIYA easily if he takes the fight seriously, but that's the crux of the matter: he probably never will. If he can't take seriously a fight against someone who, when wounded, was still able to wreck Herakles so bad that he literally knocked the Mad Enhancement off of him, how can we honestly expect Gilgamesh to win?

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

If Gilgamesh manages to swallow his pride and admits to himself that UBW counters Gate of Babylon's weapon spam perfectly, which he only did when it was already too late against Shirou, he'll always win. He probably wouldn't underestimate a Servant like Archer, like he underestimated Shirou.

Archer lost because he probably can't kill a fully functioning Berserker 12 times. He did it six times in the novel and five times in the anime.

When I said theoretically, I mean taking into account his personality.

But Gilgamesh managed to do it and Archer is capable of creating the quantity and quality of high class weapons capable of killing Berserker.

Originally Posted by Amarantine

And then Rin would have had to face Caster and Kuzuki alone and would have simply been killed and Archer wouldn't get a chance to stealth kill Caster.

IIRC he still hadn't healed from the nearly fatal wound Saber gave him. Although it's debatable whether he would have won even if he had been at full power.

I guess he couldn't allow Caster to win the grail. Maybe he would've if he knew what she wanted.

But Gilgamesh managed to do it and Archer is capable of creating the quantity and quality of high class weapons capable of killing Berserker.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Hmm, the way I see it, in Fate/zero, Gilgamesh refused to take the fight seriously against Lancelot, and as a result was humiliated pretty much every single time they fought, and whenever Arturia appeared, Gilgamesh became an afterthought, which would only enrage Gilgamesh--and as we saw with the dogfight, leave him open to a surprise attack.

This same Gilgamesh is still aware of such, and treated the next fight he was in much more seriously, employing a wider variety of attack strategies through the Gate and forcing Herakles to shield his Master. Despite this, he still left himself open to attack from Herakles, and the modicum of respect he showed Herakles seems to have stemmed from their both being demigods.

So basically, even when he should know better, Gilgamesh still refuses to fight all out and end things as quickly as he could, still refuses to believe that inferior combatants could still get the upper hand on him, which is what allows Shirou to overcome Gilgamesh in battle and defeat him with an ability that is tailor-made to defeat the King of Heroes. I see no reason why the exact same thing couldn't be done by EMIYA, who not only has the same ability, but better mana reserves and more battle experience, plus the advantages of being a Heroic Spirit. Given EMIYA's own attitude and his plethora of fakes, I see no reason why Gilgamesh would show him the respect he showed Iskander, and thus he's bound to lose.

Sure, Gilgamesh could crush EMIYA easily if he takes the fight seriously, but that's the crux of the matter: he probably never will. If he can't take seriously a fight against someone who, when wounded, was still able to wreck Herakles so bad that he literally knocked the Mad Enhancement off of him, how can we honestly expect Gilgamesh to win?

The character Gilgamesh portrayed in the previous 2 episodes cannot be taken into account because they are completely anime original. This has been discussed in another thread and while many found this portrayal much more likable than what we already know we cannot disregard the fact that he is essentially an asshole.

Even if Gilgamesh was serious, what could he do? As I said, the only real advantage he has when comparing specs is Ea and I'm sure he could keep Gilgamesh busy to prevent him from busting that out.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by bakato

When I said theoretically, I mean taking into account his personality.

But Gilgamesh managed to do it and Archer is capable of creating the quantity and quality of high class weapons capable of killing Berserker.

Archer can't create the same quality of high class weapons, because projection reduces the rank of the weapon. Berserker's defense works with a concept. He can't be hurt by anything that isn't Rank A.

Originally Posted by bakato

The character Gilgamesh portrayed in the previous 2 episodes cannot be taken into account because they are completely anime original. This has been discussed in another thread and while many found this portrayal much more likable than what we already know we cannot disregard the fact that he is essentially an asshole.

Even if Gilgamesh was serious, what could he do? As I said, the only real advantage he has when comparing specs is Ea and I'm sure he could keep Gilgamesh busy to prevent him from busting that out.

1. Put on his armor.

2. Take out a device like Vimana or something similar and fly.

3. Use something other than swords or something similar. Like magical bombs, which he does possess. Also, use shields.

4. Use Enkidu. It's still a nuisance, even against non-divine opponents.

And these are just the few examples I came up with off the top of my head. If we're talking about a serious Gilgamesh, he will curbstomp Archer.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Mentar

And once again I felt the power of "beauty forgives". Was I the only one who thought "what kind of idiot would cheat on someone looking like her?", especially since Medea was supposed to turn evil only _after_ she was deserted?

Well, Medea did trick his cousins into killing his uncle, and got him banished from Iolcus.

[AvatarST]

Gate of Babylon is not really limited to swords. He could attack Archer with bombs, missiles, whatever and use shields to block Archer's swords. He probably has better than Rho Aias (considering he already has the prototype of that).

In his fight against Shirou, Gil was hell-bent on breaking Shirou's fakes with his own swords so he kept using nothing but blades.

That said I think he'd probably lose because he's too much of a nerd to take EMIYA seriously.

[Geburah]

Imo Shirou has better chances than Archer to beat Gil . The reason is child vs servant is obvious whos gonna underestimate more.

Word of God said that on Shirou vs Gil fight Gil will win 99 out of 100 even under heavy plot induced stupidity, and yes, Gate of Babylon is ridiculously unfair having always the tool needed for each job unless Gil starts derping

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Geburah

Imo Shirou has better chances than Archer to beat Gil . The reason is child vs servant is obvious whos gonna underestimate more.

Well that's just it. Child or Servant, Gilgamesh pretty much underestimates everyone.

[ImperialKnight]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Gate of Babylon is not really limited to swords. He could attack Archer with bombs, missiles, whatever and use shields to block Archer's swords. He probably has better than Rho Aias (considering he already has the prototype of that).

In his fight against Shirou, Gil was hell-bent on breaking Shirou's fakes with his own swords so he kept using nothing but blades.

That said I think he'd probably lose because he's too much of a nerd to take EMIYA seriously.

I thought I read somewhere though that the Unlimited Blade Works is in fact a perfect counter to Gil's Gates of Babylon.

Technically speaking the Blade Works can copy whatever comes out of Gil's gates right? That's why Archer used that shield which isn't a sword.

[Rising Dragon]

It really depends. UBW will undoubtedly copy any treasure in the GoB that holds the concept of "Sword", but the GoB is not limited to objects that hold to the concept of "Sword". UBW can fire swords a little bit faster than the GoB can. However, UBW's deployment depends on Shirou's prana reserves, and at the time of the fight, he only has access to a single magic circuit, rather than the full set he has. Gilgamesh, in the meantime, has been doping up on prana for the last 10 years so he doesn't have to worry too much about the expenditure of prana for the GoB, and that expenditure is really only for just opening said Gate--it's not a constant drain like UBW is. Feasibly Gilgamesh would just have to outlast Shirou, or just use weapons that aren't swords.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Archer can't create the same quality of high class weapons, because projection reduces the rank of the weapon. Berserker's defense works with a concept. He can't be hurt by anything that isn't Rank A.

1. Put on his armor.

2. Take out a device like Vimana or something similar and fly.

3. Use something other than swords or something similar. Like magical bombs, which he does possess. Also, use shields.

4. Use Enkidu. It's still a nuisance, even against non-divine opponents.

And these are just the few examples I came up with off the top of my head. If we're talking about a serious Gilgamesh, he will curbstomp Archer.

Ah, true. However, there's always this:

The quality of projected weapons will always be degraded by one rank due to humans being unable to fully conceptualize the existence of an object through only one sense, and they will never equal the originals without a technique such as detonating them as Broken Phantasms.

Originally Posted by ImperialKnight

I thought I read somewhere though that the Unlimited Blade Works is in fact a perfect counter to Gil's Gates of Babylon.

Technically speaking the Blade Works can copy whatever comes out of Gil's gates right? That's why Archer used that shield which isn't a sword.

Also, true.

The Reality Marble is a natural counter to Gilgamesh, allowing Shirou, a below average magus, to completely overwhelm and defeat him. Though Shirou would be no match against other servants, who have mastered their own weapons to the utmost limit, the fact that both he and Gilgamesh are "owners" of numerous weapons places them on a level playing field. Neither has a specialized weapon with which they can be called a "wielder", so Shirou's ability to counter each and every weapon fired by the Gate of Babylon places Gilgamesh at a disadvantage. Outside of the Reality Marble, Shirou is barely able to keep up with Gilgamesh's assault while he was simply playing around with Shirou.

Once within the confines of the Reality Marble, all of his weapons are produced and ready to attack, which means that the Gate of Babylon's slightly slower summoning rate allows Shirou to hone in on Gilgamesh to fight and defeat him at close range. He is unable to handle Shirou's attacks, which forces him to allows his own weapons to be destroyed in order to counter Shirou's projections, and Shirou even has time to instantly recognize Ea as Gilgamesh is drawing it and quickly chop off his arm before he can utilize it. Even with the advantages, he claims that Gilgamesh would win if he were to have time to regain his composure.

[Moekou]

Originally Posted by ShadowSamurai365

Are there still people who didn't connect the dots to Archer's identity yet?

Actually, this episode produced new theories since Archer directly referenced the Trojan War twice in two very different circumstances. I've seen people speculating he's either Ulysses or Ajax.

[Lorhand]

Using Broken Phantasms takes its time and costs large amounts of mana (and they are basically just bombs). You can't expect Archer to sword rain BPs at Berserker the whole time. And mad enhancement or not, Berserker isn't stupid, either.

[AvatarST]

It's weird. As far as I remember, back in the VN, Gate of Babylon was really 99% blades and similar ancient weapons (what it was stated to have was the original form of every noble phantasm, which were all hero's weapons), but it got retconned into being far more powerful with Fate/Zero, being upgraded to cointain all sorts of items.

So yeah, back then UBW would've been the perfect counter, but not really anymore seeing it can really bring any kind of item forth.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Moekou

Actually, this episode produced new theories since Archer directly referenced the Trojan War twice in two very different circumstances. I've seen people speculating he's either Ulysses or Ajax.

Bet those theories get a little muddied when they consider that Archer also possesses a Celtic weapon, the sword Caladbolg.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Bet those theories get a little muddied when they consider that Archer also possesses a Celtic weapon, the sword Caladbolg.

Did they actually say it was the Caladbolg in this adaptation?

[Rising Dragon]

"I am the bone of my sword. Caladbolg!" - Archer, episode 7.