F/SN UBW TV - Episode 8 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[quigonkenny]

Speaking of Rider, I dedicate this song to her memory. Alas, we hardly knew ye...

YouTube

https://youtu.be/PGNiXGX2nLU

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[Rev Okkin]

http://gifsound.com/?gif=https://i.i...NiXGX2nLU&s=61

[Rev Okkin]

So I swung by the fandom in tumblr and interesting things.
1. They all want HF now
2. Shirou wielding a broom. (Archer got a broom Ep 0)
3. They overpowered Kuzuki too much (aka he should have killed Rider by surprise, not just walking in)
4. Random Caster. She was there to try and Rule Breaker Saber but fails due to Saber skills. Here she just comes off as a creepy creep.
5. Yeah, Rider's corpse was a bit too much for them.
6. Missing scene of Rin or Shirou telling Shinji to go to Church for protection (probably in BD version)
7. Sakura's prominence. If Rider cares so much of Sakura, why suddenly activate Bloodfort without warning? Because Shinji said so?
8. They love Shirou's PTSD face.

[The Green One]

Saber at this point has already met Archer, Lancer, Beserker, and Assassin. All that's left is Caster and Rider. Shirou has seen both of them and definitely could of described them both, not that much of a stretch that Saber could differentiate them as well as identify them.

[TwilightsCall]

I don't see how they overpowered Kuzuki. He does the exact same thing to Saber without needing a surprise attack, and she can practically see the future. Rider, who is considerably weaker than Saber, would have been a cakewalk for him.

[Rev Okkin]

http://kurozu501.tumblr.com/post/103...ode-8-thoughts

1. Kuzuki does not just march into an empty room and kill Rider one on one ufotable, thats how he would die. The entire point of this part in the VN is that he kills Rider by catching her by surprise.

In the VN Shinji is in a classroom (kuzuki’s classrom, with him lying on the ground among the students) gloating over the dying students laying around him. Since everyone has been lying still apparently unable to resist her field for several minutes, it is at least plausible that when Kuzuki suddenly got up and charged Rider while her back was turned he was able to catch her off guard and kill her in one blow.

It is not possible that he walked into the room openly, intimidated Shinji for several moments and then took Rider on in a head on fight and won.

I get that they want to build up Caster’s master and his surprise! ability to fight on a near servant level as a threat but that was just shitting on Rider to do it. I know that Rider gets the short end of the stick in UBW but it was still really silly and just makes me annoyed as a fan of Rider. Way to make her fridging worse by making her look weaker? All i can say is that ufotable better do a damn good job with Heaven’s Feel (and please make it more then just one movie) and Rider after this.

2. What was the point of changing Caster’s short confrontation with Saber??? in the VN we see that she was trying to stab Saber with Rule Breaker but failed because of Saber’s skills. This being a good way to introduce her knife to the audience (what is that weird dagger? why does it look different then a normal weapon? what would have happened if she had gotten Saber with it?) and to remind them that Caster is a threat.

This is also meant to foreshadow for later, when Caster does get Saber with Rule Breaker, and all the bad that comes with it. Changing it to her pretending to be Rider (why?) and then just creepily stroking Saber’s face while vanishing was duuuumb. If you aren’t going to have Caster pull out Rule Breaker there, even briefly, then you just wasted that scene. The creepy face stroking foreshadows her creepy desire to own saber i guess? but seriously was there something stopping you from showing her knife

3. How many scenes has shinji been in and yet right to the end ufotable never had either Rin or Shirou tell him to run to the Kotomine church for protection? What was the point of cutting out that line ufotable, that’s the only reason shinji goes to Kirei at all.

4. not really a complaint, but was Sakura shown so openly among the students in the VN? I don’t recall that. I’m glad the show remembers she exists, but like. Rider obviously would never set up the field to hurt her, of all people. So was Sakura just pretending to be unconscious the whole time?

[Levani]

I can't believe I just read something like "DEEN made a better adaptation" on this thread. I've read Fate route and I tried to watch the DEEN version but I couldn't. It's terrible. Everyone is static, has zero characterization, terrible animation, terrible slow pacing, making Shirou look even more retarded and sexist than he seems in the Fate route.

No, DEEN's version was garbage. They have fucked up all of their adaptations, not just FSN. They fucked up Tsukihime, fucked up Higurashi, fucked up Umineko, turning them into shit stories when they're one of the best VNs out there.

[Rev Okkin]

Originally Posted by Levani

No, DEEN's version was garbage. They have fucked up all of their adaptations, not just FSN. They fucked up Tsukihime, fucked up Higurashi, fucked up Umineko, turning them into shit stories when they're one of the best VNs out there.

Whoa there. They might have messed up Tsukihime and Umineko, but I have on good word by someone who played the VN that the Higurashi adaptation is interestingly good.
Different thread to talk about it though.
DeenFSN has merits especially in the music, but direction is not one of its merits

[Rising Dragon]

Kuzuki being able to kill Rider head-on makes sense, though, because he's able to fight Saber and come out on top in a direct fight--in the VN, she was literally a single hit away from death when the battle between them ended. Word of God calls him a Saber-class opponent, like Assassin. While many a person would be utterly outclassed facing a Servant, Kuzuki is not one of them.

As for the Saber/Caster confrontation this episode... by using Rider's appearance, Caster keeps Saber and her Master from thinking that there's other forces at play. She likely revealed herself at the end because Kuzuki had already killed Rider by then, so there was no need to hide her involvement anymore.

As for Sakura, well... in the episode we saw Rin and Shirou resisting the Blood Fort's effects by generating mana, right? Well, I don't see how Zouken's worms couldn't protect her the same manner. As for Rider obeying Shinji, isn't that spellbook of his acting like a Command Seal, so she can't really disobey him while he has it?

And if those tumblr kids can't handle Rider's twisted head, I can imagine the shitstorm that'd happen if ufotable had been really faithful and had the victims horribly disfigured by the Blood Fort like in the VN.

[Levani]

Originally Posted by Rev Okkin

Whoa there. They might have messed up Tsukihime and Umineko, but I have on good word by someone who played the VN that the Higurashi adaptation is interestingly good.
Different thread to talk about it though.
DeenFSN has merits especially in the music, but direction is not one of its merits

I'm a huge When they Cry fan and trust me, Higurashi anime is garbage. Instead of characterization, they focus on the gore and blood and completely miss what the thing is about. In its second season, they go back to the roots of what Higurashi is supposed to feel like and the gore fans who came with season one complained that the genre was changed

And if those tumblr kids can't handle Rider's twisted head, I can imagine the shitstorm that'd happen if ufotable had been really faithful and had the victims horribly disfigured by the Blood Fort like in the VN.

I wonder if they watched Fate/Zero? Caster and Ryonusuke did some crazy stuff there.

[Rev Okkin]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Kuzuki being able to kill Rider head-on makes sense, though, because he's able to fight Saber and come out on top in a direct fight--in the VN, she was literally a single hit away from death when the battle between them ended. Word of God calls him a Saber-class opponent, like Assassin. While many a person would be utterly outclassed facing a Servant, Kuzuki is not one of them.

As for the Saber/Caster confrontation this episode... by using Rider's appearance, Caster keeps Saber and her Master from thinking that there's other forces at play. She likely revealed herself at the end because Kuzuki had already killed Rider by then, so there was no need to hide her involvement anymore.

As for Sakura, well... in the episode we saw Rin and Shirou resisting the Blood Fort's effects by generating mana, right? Well, I don't see how Zouken's worms couldn't protect her the same manner. As for Rider obeying Shinji, isn't that spellbook of his acting like a Command Seal, so she can't really disobey him while he has it?

And if those tumblr kids can't handle Rider's twisted head, I can imagine the shitstorm that'd happen if ufotable had been really faithful and had the victims horribly disfigured by the Blood Fort like in the VN.

1. Yeah, makes sense.
2.Interesting. But still in character so no complaints.
3. The argument is that Zouken's worms feed on Sakura's mana/prana. So without proper preparation or turning into Dark Sakura, she is pretty much rendered a normal human. The counter argument is that yes, while Sakura is normal here, Rider is paradoxical where she thinks that her actions are for the betterment of Sakura while some of her actions do the opposite.
4. Arguably, the students matter little whereas Rider is an actual relevant character to the overall narrative. Having her smashed up, "crucified" and neck twisted seems too much degradation of her body where all what the source material says is that her neck/head was blown off somehow.

[Rev Okkin]

Originally Posted by Levani

I wonder if they watched Fate/Zero? Caster and Ryonusuke did some crazy stuff there.

Well, it wasn't as explicit and mostly off screen. The first kid was torn apart offscreen and it was a jumpscare, the next kids were crucified in a long shot and their bodies aren't as wrecked as Rider's, the kids with Saber just exploded with a sequence of Saber horrified with blood on her face (the manga showed the abomination that the kids looked like before exploding). Waver finding them were mostly silhouettes with the exception of one that was just a wide eyed open kid with tearlike blood flowing out.
Rider's corpse was more explicit and brutal compared to the kids. The kids' corpses were brutal enough by the fact that they were kids.

And if those tumblr kids can't handle Rider's twisted head, I can imagine the shitstorm that'd happen if ufotable had been really faithful and had the victims horribly disfigured by the Blood Fort like in the VN.

Sorry to quote you again but to add, if ufotable was more faithful to the victims being disfigured, people would be more sure of Shirou's broken mental state as he walks through a room full of melting people. Their tame version did that but with the side effect of people complaining that Rin isn't the "strong capable character" but now a "generic weak tsundere" aka Asunafication (I coin this term)

[R.LocK]

Originally Posted by Rev Okkin

It is not possible that he walked into the room openly, intimidated Shinji for several moments and then took Rider on in a head on fight and won.

Yeah, right, no. Kuzuki can.

[TwilightsCall]

I get that they want to build up Caster’s master and his surprise! ability to fight on a near servant level as a threat but that was just shitting on Rider to do it. I know that Rider gets the short end of the stick in UBW but it was still really silly and just makes me annoyed as a fan of Rider. Way to make her fridging worse by making her look weaker? All i can say is that ufotable better do a damn good job with Heaven’s Feel (and please make it more then just one movie) and Rider after this.

Rider was portrayed as being shit because in UBW she is shit. With Shinji as her master, she is complete and utter trash. Shirou was keeping up with her. In HF, when Rider and Saber come across each other, it isn't even a fight. Saber literally floors her, it isn't even a competition.

There is no reason to butter up Rider as being an awesome Servant when she's not. No one is going to be impressed by her when she is the first servant to die anyways. They might as well save themselves the effort, focus on making this a good adaptation (ie emphasizing Kuzuki's abilities, since he's actually relevant to the plot), and letting Rider shine in HF where she is actually a relevant character.

What was the point of changing Caster’s short confrontation with Saber??? in the VN we see that she was trying to stab Saber with Rule Breaker but failed because of Saber’s skills. This being a good way to introduce her knife to the audience (what is that weird dagger? why does it look different then a normal weapon? what would have happened if she had gotten Saber with it?) and to remind them that Caster is a threat.

From an adaptation stand point, why spoil that Rider has a fancy knife? Yes, it happens in the VN, and that's as good a reason as any to include it. There's no real arguing there. But by taking that out, we can instead have the knife be an actual surprise. Rather than having us going "I wonder what that knife does...oh here it comes! Whoa that's cool!" Why not have a "Holy shit what just happened?!" moment?

We know Servants have Noble Phantasms, so we know Caster is going to have one. I don't think spoiling that her NP is a knife makes sense, especially since it will make Saber look like a complete and utter idiot for falling for it when she does eventually get stabbed.

[Toonleap]

Originally Posted by Rev Okkin

I read all your posts on ufoFSN and to summarize all your complaints, it's the pacing and Ep 7 talking. Granted this is TV version, ufotable had confirmed they have cut scenes from the anime due to time restrictions. The "complete" version or the BD version is the one you have to see to give a full assessment on the series. The TV version is more like a first impression on everything in it while the BD is what you use to judge on the series.
And about Rider, would you like it if they gave her identity and motivations only to be killed like that? No, that is wasted potential and writing. As she is not needed in UBW, she is only given a "first impression" in Ep 5 and 8 and killed off effectively while driving the plot along (who killed her? what of Shinji now?) She is relevant in Heaven's Feel (getting a movie series adaptation by ufotable) so she gets her identity and motivations which play large roles in the narrative in there unlike in UBW where it isn't.

Hiya
Thanks for reading my post and had the time to read it through. Guess We will have to wait for the HF movie to see Rider having a major role. Bad for her on the previous arcs...

The blurays should be an awesome thing. Only problem is to wait for them... as usual... :P

I agree with your comments.

[larethian]

Every episode feels so short. My eyes honestly turned into glittering stars at the Saber summoning scene. That was really wow! How much $$$ are they blowing into this series!? I'm not into collecting anime BD/DVDs except for an occasional series, but I'm seriously considering getting this.

[Kanon]

Rider's spinning head was horrifying. And sort of hilarious. Kuzuki doesn't mess around. When he breaks your neck, he makes damn sure it is indeed broken.

Rin looked adorable waiting for Shirou in order to invite him for lunch. Little does she know, she fell in love with the densest man on Earth. Shit, even I would have gotten a clue.

[Kimiko Khan]

Originally Posted by Rev Okkin

Their tame version did that but with the side effect of people complaining that Rin isn't the "strong capable character" but now a "generic weak tsundere" aka Asunafication (I coin this term)

could you perhaps elaborate on that? I fail to see how that conclusion could be made

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Rin looked adorable waiting for Shirou in order to invite him for lunch. Little does she know, she fell in love with the densest man on Earth. Shit, even I would have gotten a clue.

He's no Ichika, at least.

[Dengar]

Wah wah they changed it now it sucks.

So it begins....