Mahouka - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[Kenju of the Right]

the thing is, they would only further feel they were inferior because they were discriminated against in the first place.
there are examples of people being okay but just a few who don't mind shouldn't judge how much of a problem it is for others

[Ickarium]

Tatsuya and Mizuki bring this up this episode, so I think it's safe to mention this. Combat magic, /real/ combat magic, tends to be low in activation processes. It's quite possible to be good at combat magic and not good at more complicated magic (and thus be in Course 2). Look at Tatsuya, who's the epitome of this.

Remember, Leo says in ... first episode I think? He wants to be in either the magical SWAT or the mountain police. He's probably one of the rarities that are really good at basic combat magic.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by Mentar

There's nothing wrong with bringing up valid points in a public forum. However, if you really feel that these three points you listed constitute a huge issue, we have to agree to disagree.

This is something that actually annoys ME to no end in real life, though most likely in the opposite direction compared to you: This politicized whiny-victimization of people. "I feel discriminated against! You say you have no reason to?? Doesn't matter, I FEEL disrespected, so I'm a victim anyway. And it's YOUR fault up there that I feel like this! Why didn't you fix this before I even got here?"

This kind of "argument" comes in many shapes and forms, and I've come to hate it. In the Mahouka world, it's unrealistically easy for me to judge, because here, the actual "form" of the discrimination makes it easy: Mayumi gave a proper account. And she is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT that the willingness of many weeds to ACCEPT the role of the discriminated is a major part of the problem in itself. Look at how Erika/Leo/Mizuki/Honoka/Shizuka act: They don't f*cking care, and deal with each other respectfully. Do they feel discriminated against? It doesn't seem like it. They accept that their magical prowess is below the first-courses, and THIS IS IT. They still do their best, and that is more than fine in most cases. This is how it's SUPPOSED to be in my book.

I know from personal life experience that if some people tried half as hard to do what they can within their (possible) limits, they'd be perfectly successful. This "it's someone else's fault that I am disrespected" self-victimization is poisonous, self-deprecating, and all too much opens people up to political exploitation.

In the RL world, things tend to be much more grey, since often enough there discrimination comes with real actual examples for unfair preferential treatment. In this LN setting, less so.

I'm only talking about this from an in-universe perspective. The purpose of the forum was for the course 2 students to bring up grievances regarding systematic discrimination against course 2 students by the school administration. The 3 points have been laid out by the show in episodes 1-4 and have been brought up by various course 2 students in those episodes 2. Yet, when they finally get the forum, the bring up a grievance that isn't even a grievance and completely forget about the 3 points that are actually grievances (again, whether or not you or I feel they're major or not due our own personal views on the subject doesn't matter as much as the fact that the in universe characters do believe them to be a big deal).

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right

the thing is, they would only further feel they were inferior because they were discriminated against in the first place.
there are examples of people being okay but just a few who don't mind shouldn't judge how much of a problem it is for others

So what's the right way to deal with these people who feel diminished? Reinforce their self-depreciative world view, claim that it's the fault of "the system"/"the uppers" and to top it off best add stuff like "it's hopeless as long as (the system/uppers) stays is at it is, smash the enemy!"? Or try to lift their spirit, encourage people and rather point at their own strengths as a measure to build up self-confidence?

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

Tatsuya and Mizuki bring this up this episode, so I think it's safe to mention this. Combat magic, /real/ combat magic, tends to be low in activation processes. It's quite possible to be good at combat magic and not good at more complicated magic (and thus be in Course 2). Look at Tatsuya, who's the epitome of this.

Remember, Leo says in ... first episode I think? He wants to be in either the magical SWAT or the mountain police. He's probably one of the rarities that are really good at basic combat magic.

Yea, though the point still stands that Leo wanted to teach Morisaka a lesson when he could've just walked away.

[Kenju of the Right]

Originally Posted by Mentar

So what's the right way to deal with these people who feel diminished? Reinforce their self-depreciative world view, claim that it's the fault of "the system"/"the uppers" and to top it off best add stuff like "it's hopeless as long as (the system/uppers) stays is at it is, smash the enemy!"? Or try to lift their spirit, encourage people and rather point at their own strengths as a measure to build up self-confidence?

Oh i don't know, maybe get to the root of the problem actually do something to help stop anymore of the discrimination

[Mentar]

Like?

What should be done in excess of that Mayumi did?

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Like?

What should be done in excess of that Mayumi did?

For my university, every engineering students need to take an ethics course in 1st year.

Though in this case, majority of those who have already made up their minds likely won't change their minds with an ethics course alone.

But who knows, maybe worth a try.

[Kenju of the Right]

actually police any discrimination thats going on(more than it already is)
maybe have more activities where course 1s and 2s work together in someway
continue to make the discrimination more aware

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

For my university, every engineering students need to take an ethics course in 1st year.

Seriously? ... wow. For _Engineering_?

(Would like to point out though that in Mahouka it's a High School setting - University comes after that)

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Seriously? ... wow. For _Engineering_?

Yea, though in comparison, even the biological science students do not need to, but every engineering students need to take a standalone ethics course.

[RoboMambo]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

There's actually a reason for Course 2 students to not be on the disciplinary committee, though. Even if he was a jerkass about it, Hattori brought it up: most Course 2 students /can't win/ against Course 1 students in a magical fight. This isn't bias, this is fact. Tatsuya struggled to pass the activation test at 1000ms, and that's pretty typical of Course 2 students in general, though many are better than him. You don't want to know what the Course 1 numbers are.

This is true, but it doesn't help stop it from being aggravating and further increasing tensions. If the disciplinary committe does anything besides supressing violent students (which I hope they do, because it's high school, not Mad Max), course 2 students can still make themselves useful. Now, if they don't do anything that doesn't end in fights, then yes, better keep it as it is.

[Netto Azure]

Wow, that certainly turned dark quite fast. Terrorism?

Its a nice way to diffuse the situation by encouraging unity at the student council in terms of Course 1 and 2 students being allowed to join. (Though really, the overpowered Student Council trope rears its head yet again. XD)

I like the way how these simple divisions have been used as a way to expound on the negative aspects of discrimination. Its not only the institution that oppresses, but the internalization process of accepting the percieved disabilities.

Anyways seeing things animated certainly makes things a lot easier to digest.

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

Wow, that certainly turned dark quite fast. Terrorism?

Its a nice way to diffuse the situation by encouraging unity at the student council in terms of Course 1 and 2 students being allowed to join. (Though really, the overpowered Student Council trope rears its head yet again. XD)

Not really that overpowered, she can't implement it herself, like she said she has to wait until the Student Assembly thing that happens later in the school year to propose the change.

[Netto Azure]

Well yes, but from what I can see the administrators have taken a hands off approach to something that would typically be handled by those outside of the teenage years. They have delegated quite a lot of power to the council I think by doing this.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right

actually police any discrimination thats going on(more than it already is)

It's already at a point where if you're caught, you're disciplined. How can you police it more? Discipline based on rumors? Thought police?

maybe have more activities where course 1s and 2s work together in someway

This one has some potential merit, but at the same time course 2 is course 2 for a reason. It's the same with normal high schools (at least around here when I went to high school). You had various levels of classes based on skill (we had a 1-4 system, with 4 being exceptional, 3 being above average, and so on). You don't mix that, because then you're just hurting the more talented students as a means of trying to be "equal", which will just incur further animosity.

continue to make the discrimination more aware

How would this change anything? Everyone knows it happens already; they're part of it.

Basically, what Tatsuya said is 100% correct. Outside of course 1 students having actual teachers and course 2 students just having a curriculum (or however they're taught), the only actual discrimination comes from the students themselves. If it were so easy to fix that, then why is there a rich vs poor in the real world? Or racism? It's not something that you can just make rules for and have it go away.

[Triple_R]

Episode 5 was a very good watch. I'll probably have more to write about it later, but for now, I want to focus on this interesting Bloom/Weed discussion.

Originally Posted by Esclair

There are actually 3 issues that are clearly systematically discriminatory, but the course 2 students in the debate for some reason were too stupid to bring up:

1. No magical teachers for the course 2 students
2. Different uniforms
3. Course 2 students cannot be on the student council.

Mibu thought talking about 1 would be "going too far". Her and her allies seem to grasp that 1 is not that easy a thing to fix, reflecting what some of us were saying during Episode 4 discussions on the general discussion thread (formerly the series thread).

However, 2 and 3 seem like fairly easy fixes to me. And it is a bit disappointing that nobody on either side seems to be even thinking about 2.

My tentative take on the different uniforms is that there is mild utilitarian value to having slightly different uniforms for students at the same school that are going through different course chains. This is admittedly a strange comparison, but I recall Strawberry Panic sort of having 3 schools in one, with each of the 3 having its own distinct uniform. And it worked in Strawberry Panic because the students didn't seem to discriminate against each other to any significant degree in spite of their differences being displayed vividly by three very different uniforms. So there's value in a Spica girl knowing instantly that she's talking to another Spica girl just by the immediate visual confirmation of that white uniform. It means she doesn't have to verbally confirm that before talking about a subject that might only be relevant to her and other Spica girls.

But this sort of value is obviously very mild - It's nice and convenient, but it's no big deal. It's definitely not worth causing a lot of discrimination, which does in fact seem to be the case with the slightly different uniforms in Mahouka's school.

That probably should be changed - The con almost certainly outweighs the pro here. It's disappointing that Mibu didn't think of this (she had a good opportunity to bring it up to Tatsuya) and also that nobody seems to be thinking of it.


I think that quickly and effectively addressing your 2 and 3 would constitute perfectly reasonable demands on the part of the protesting group.


Now, as for this all relates to Tatsuya...

My view on him is that he is very pragmatic and realistic, perhaps to a fault. He honestly struck me as a bit overly hard-hearted towards the protesting students. Even if they are being manipulated by a foreign government, that doesn't mean their complaints are without validity.

So yeah, I have my doubts that Tatsuya is entirely in the right here. But then, maybe that's a good thing. I had to laugh at Mizuki talking about how Tatsuya would be too perfect if not for his magic weakness - I could just feel Mahouka's author using her dialogue to directly address any "Gary Stu" complaints that readers/viewers could make against his MC.

With that in mind, maybe it's good that Tatsuya has a darker/colder side to him to give him a meaningful flaw. He's smooth, he's cordial, he's excellent at combat, he's great at law enforcement, but he can be a bit unsympathetic to people with legitimate complaints. Having a bit of internal hardness may compliment his external smoothness, making him a very well-balanced character with an edge.

[kagato3]

Not sure I like this

Spoiler for LN:

A person's hopes and dreams?

It wasn't something as beautiful as that.

From the beginning, he never had a chance at a life that was unrelated to magic.

He didn't become a Magician because he could use magic; he became a Magician precisely because he couldn't use magic.

For him, magic was a curse cast upon him the moment he was born.

Even if it was transformed into something that he could accept, to him, it was still a struggle.

That being said, if it was as simple as people becoming Magicians simply because they could use magic, then it was not surprising that the bottom feeders amongst Magicians would choose to deny magic.

Maybe he had the wrong idea.

— Tatsuya suddenly thought this way.

being summed up as he was force to become a magician. There are a lot of subtle difference in the statements.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by GDB

This one has some potential merit, but at the same time course 2 is course 2 for a reason. It's the same with normal high schools (at least around here when I went to high school). You had various levels of classes based on skill (we had a 1-4 system, with 4 being exceptional, 3 being above average, and so on). You don't mix that, because then you're just hurting the more talented students as a means of trying to be "equal", which will just incur further animosity.

lol, funny you phrase it this way, because I think the mixing is actually more likely to hurt the less-talented students.

Well, I suppose it really depends on how the mixing is done. But having 4 divisions for high school? That seems pretty hardcore to me. My high school only got 2 divisions. In my university though, there are 4 divisions for math classes (where you really need the extra brain cells), but only 2 for chemical/biological sciences.

There're also extracurricular activities, like field trips and prom.

[millie10468]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

With that in mind, maybe it's good that Tatsuya has a darker/colder side to him to give him a meaningful flaw. He's smooth, he's cordial, he's excellent at combat, he's great at law enforcement, but he can be a bit unsympathetic to people with legitimate complaints. Having a bit of internal hardness may compliment his external smoothness, making him a very well-balanced character with an edge.

His selling point is his cold logic in situations where he'd be better served if he was sympathetic. Honestly, he's the embodiment of "nothing concerns me until it does." I'm happy the anime is portraying that, at least.