Log Horizon - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

not blackmail, guilt trip.

Right, fixed.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Anime Online

The nobles could be bewildered why the goblins are invading in strength. Back when Elder Tales was a game, the goblin invasion was a popular player event. This would mean, from the nobles' point of view, the adventurers had always been taking care of the goblins before. So why are the adventurers so coy and hesitant now? If the adventurers do it for free, there's no need to pay them. The nobles are aware that the price would likely be very high, should the adventurers become aware the Izumo Knights are not around and they have a monopoly to set any price they wish. That is the situation the nobles wants to avoid, if at all possible.

The nobles aren't stupid. They actually put alot of thought into their predicament. They do not wish to jump out of the oil (get rid of goblins) and into the fire (become held to ransom by the adventurers).

I didn't they were stupid and maybe stupidity wasn't the best word choice it was at least very arrogant to think that they'd be able to guilt the Adventurers into handling it. And yes I realize that the Adventurers had been taking care of this for centuries from the Landers point view but the Landers are also well aware that the Adventurers behavior had recently changed and besides expecting them to go fight a war for them for free because there people always had before does smack of certain arrogance. Plus then there is the whole deal with the Knights of Izumo I'm not faulting the Nobles from keeping it from The Round Table more the attitude they seemed to have that if they didn't tell them there was no way the Adventurers would find out.

[FRS]

On the Izumo Knights subject, i think that you also have to keep in mind that the nobles by themselves are not able to face an Adventurers raid, the only thing that could maybe keep them in check were the Izumo Knights, by withholding the information on their disparation the nobles are also trying IMO to not paint a big "free target" on them.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

that won't work for plaer who already max their lvl. they are going to need at least something besides exp.

True, although I bet goblin related quests were 20-40s quest line in general.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by FRS

On the Izumo Knights subject, i think that you also have to keep in mind that the nobles by themselves are not able to face an Adventurers raid, the only thing that could maybe keep them in check were the Izumo Knights, by withholding the information on their disparation the nobles are also trying IMO to not paint a big "free target" on them.

Well the arrogant part is thinking that they can control the information about the Izumo Knights they're a separate organization with facilities located throughout Japan if they've gone missing the Adventurers are bound to figure it out at some point.
As far as them keeping that information from the Adventurers does make strategic sense but it could have also blown up in there faces giving them possible motivation to move against the nobles.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by GundamFan

Well the arrogant part is thinking that they can control the information about the Izumo Knights they're a separate organization with facilities located throughout Japan if they've gone missing the Adventurers are bound to figure it out at some point.

Well, you have to remember two things:

One, prior to the Apocalypse, Adventurers wouldn't have cared about the Knights of Izumo one bit. For players, they're quest dispensers at best, annoying time-wasters that do their blabla lore shpiel before you can kill the raid boss at worst.

Two, they weren't interested in keeping the secret forever, just as long as possible. At the very least until they got an agreement with the Adventurers on the current threat.

Originally Posted by GundamFan

As far as them keeping that information from the Adventurers does make strategic sense but it could have also blown up in there faces giving them possible motivation to move against the nobles.

Risk VS reward. From a Lander noble point of view, by telling the Adventurers that the Knights of Izumo are missing, they're essentially telling them "We're all but helpless here, so by all means make whatever insane demands for reward that comes to mind. There's not much we can do to refuse."

By keeping the disappearance a secret, they can at least create the illusion that they don't really need the Adventurers, but their help would be appreciated.

[Ickarium]

Again, I really think you're giving the nobles here too much credit. Some, obviously, are not so bad, but I am pretty sure the vast majority of them simply want to control the adventurers. Heck, Shiroe commented on it at one point earlier in the series.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

Again, I really think you're giving the nobles here too much credit. Some, obviously, are not so bad, but I am pretty sure the vast majority of them simply want to control the adventurers. Heck, Shiroe commented on it at one point earlier in the series.

desperate people do stupid things and make stupid decision.

the anime probably won't go into these details.

the majority of the force under the nobles are Calvary. If they have to fight the goblins in the forest and mountains they will most likely lose. Even if they lure out the goblins by sacrificing one of their city. The expected casualty rate is at least 30% of the entire arm forces of the Estal Union.

Suffering this much losses in such a short amount of time will leave them open to attacks by other countries.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

Again, I really think you're giving the nobles here too much credit. Some, obviously, are not so bad, but I am pretty sure the vast majority of them simply want to control the adventurers. Heck, Shiroe commented on it at one point earlier in the series.

Of course they're trying to control the Adventurers, I don't see how I ever argued otherwise.

[The Green One]

The landers feel they can't afford to look weak in front of the Adventurers, which is why they're maneuvering for concessions from them without giving any themselves here instead of doing what the Princess is doing and appealing to simple human decency and making her request respectfully which is far more likely to attract aid from sympathetic Adventurers.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

The logic is still suspect, however, in that 'Simply because you were nice before, you are OBLIGATED TO DO SO AGAIN' is pretty bad thinking, and kind of morally bankrupt.

Lets be honest. If you got used to a race of immortal killer robots handling these kinds of problems before, you'd be a bit used to them handling it.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

not blackmail, guilt trip.

You can somewhat understand some of the landers feeling a bit irked by the Adventurers unwillingness to act. Even if some of the nobles are suggesting it a bit too forcefully, they ARE basically right about the dynamic at play here. The landers militarily fighting the Goblins head on entails colossal loss of life, both civilian and military. Even if they win thousands, if not tens of thousands, could die...Adventurers by contrast can virtually accept ANY level of casualties as long as they win. There's not really any such thing as a Pyrrhic victory for them in terms of Adventurer losses, since none of their casualties are permanent.


...mind, the gradual memory loss DOES sorta make this a slightly more dicey issue...though in the grand scheme of things, that IS a slightly shallow complaint to say, being dead permanently.


Though I think ultimately even Shiroe understands this. I seriously doubt he went through all the mental energy of classifying the Landers as people to be willing to casually let allot of them get slaughtered by monsters. The main point of the negotiations here is to make it clear to the nobility that they AREN'T going to be tools/automatons/Slave soldiers on behalf of the nobility.


...I suppose that makes Princess Gets trolled plan incredible insight on her part, or picking the correct course of action through sheer luck. The Adventurers aren't really conditioned to accept they have some kinda divine command to fight monsters...so princess gets trolled beseeching them for aid likely has the greatest chance of success.


I'm not sure Princess Gets trolled entirely gets why it's fairly likely to succeed. If the Adventurers ACTUALLY were a group of for real hardcore mother fuckers interested in real politik as a group it might be sorta dicey...but seeing as how these are fantasy gamers invested in fantasy pop culture tropes being beseeched by a beautiful fantasy princess to go off on an epic adventurer....seems likely there'd be a fair amount of adventurers who'd get pumped and decide to go out and fight.

[The Green One]

One of the points raised through several of the last few episodes is that Adventurers are free. The Round Table actually can't order them to help and expect the rest of the Adventurers to unconditionally obey. If large groups of them refuses to help for whatever reason, it could undermine the Round Table's authority which would be very bad. But moral reasons aside, the Round Table can't immediately cave in and pledge help as they'd just be accepting the role of the Noble's pet attack dogs, opening the gate for more such demands in the future.

After all if they show the Nobles these demanding tactics will get their help once, they'll inevitably continue to do it. So the Princess didn't just give the Nobles a way out of this to save face, they also gave the Adventurers a way out as well, since now those who want to volunteer can through the Princess's method.

[ices]

What i love from log horizon is the quality of the discussion that following it in each episode. the political, cultural, economical, fantasy, mmo discussion was a quite good things to read. it's the same with this episode.

well, i'm not quite good on understanding the topics that i mention above. but watcing you discussing it here sure give a good insight.

now, about the episode. the thing that impress me this episode was how they manage to grow the princess in the hearts of many viewers. and its just a few episode after she was introduced. well, maybe i'm wrong, maybe not that many, but nonetheles that what i feel right now.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by The Green One

One of the points raised through several of the last few episodes is that Adventurers are free. The Round Table actually can't order them to help and expect the rest of the Adventurers to unconditionally obey. If large groups of them refuses to help for whatever reason, it could undermine the Round Table's authority which would be very bad. But moral reasons aside, the Round Table can't immediately cave in and pledge help as they'd just be accepting the role of the Noble's pet attack dogs, opening the gate for more such demands in the future.

Those two factors probably directly tie into each other. Even if the Council wants to help the landers, the council by itself can't really help the landers. Only a larger number of Adventurers working together under the councils direction can do that... which becomes increasingly difficult if the Adventurers come to see the Council as just being rubberstampers for the lander nobility.


Even if personally the council ranked saving people higher than not appearing as sucks ups to the nobles...they likely are tied together.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Risk VS reward. From a Lander noble point of view, by telling the Adventurers that the Knights of Izumo are missing, they're essentially telling them "We're all but helpless here, so by all means make whatever insane demands for reward that comes to mind. There's not much we can do to refuse."

By keeping the disappearance a secret, they can at least create the illusion that they don't really need the Adventurers, but their help would be appreciated.

I agree with you it's risk vs reward I was trying to point out the risk because it's been largely glossed over since we audience know they aren't going to go genocidal on the Landers over being played. The Nobles are trying to use a good size population who are essentially demigods compared to them as pawns that carries with it some real risk of getting yourself wiped out down the road.

[Keroko]

Yeah, they have a warped sort of vision towards Adventurers. They know they're not the same as them, but they'll still try to play the same political games as if they were. The idea that Adventurers have no such thing as a noble hierarchy they can attempt to use and abuse as they would their own just doesn't compute to them, because to them the world simply doesn't work like that.

And to be fair, it technically didn't until recently.

[The Green One]

It's the fact that the Adventurer's power hopelessly outclassing the nobles, especially since the Izumo knights have mysteriously up and vanished do they feel they've got to play such a delicate game here. They have no way of knowing the Adventurers just aren't going to up and invade and butcher/enslave them so they don't want to provoke them. Yet they also refuse the very idea of being subservient to them in any shape or fashion either.

Up until very recently the Adventurers were these strange robotic automation like murder machines that would go along with anything they wanted and destroy their enemies for them and keep them safe. Now all of the sudden their murder machine pets seem to have miraculously become sentient and are thinking and growing by themselves. In the nobles eyes the Adventurers have all the sudden made miraculously intense leaps in technology and have united and formed a coherent city state and have become full players on the economic and military field.

The only thing the Nobles have in an attempt to level the playing field is politics. Which is why they're scrambling to secure deals, contacts, and technology from their new rivals so that they don't fall behind and end up being the pets to the Adventurers that the Adventurers were once to them. Now while we have the knowledge of seeing what kind of people the Adventurers really are, the Nobles can't, to them the Adventurers seem like some kind of freaky bizarre monsters who are evolving at an incredible pace.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

The expected casualty rate is at least 30% of the entire arm forces of the Estal Union.

Wasn't precisely that percentage quoted in one lecture in one episode of Maoyuu Maou Yuusha as the casualty rate at which your armies start to crumble (I think the official term is that your units are routed). So Basically the predicted scenario is Estal forces being routed, the goblins respawn and then cut to bits whatever is left of any opposing armies.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by aohige

Knowing MMO, I bet some of the quests were mostly EXP reward.
Which, from Lander POV, may have looked like nearly free.

Just for the record, we were told last week that slaying the goblin king before he was crowned rewarded players with a number of powerful rare items. So there was a fairly significant reward.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Just for the record, we were told last week that slaying the goblin king before he was crowned rewarded players with a number of powerful rare items. So there was a fairly significant reward.

the items were form the Drops killing the Goblin King, not the lander noble who posted the quest.