"Geneon USA" in credits DOESN'T equal a license!?

[ACE2003]

Well, fansubing in itself is wrong, which makes this funny and ironic. But in regards to what I have said, with only 95 out of 100 percent, theres still room for error. Granted 95% is a high number, but still that doesn't mean it's been licensed. I like the formal way of things, if its announced to public that Tenjo Tenge etc. HAS BEEN LICENSED, then sure no complaints are necessary. Right now, everything is off of assumption since Geneon USA is in the credits. True, they may have the license, but until a FORMAL announcement is made stating such, then I don't see the problem with listing it. Right now, they could be waiting for the right time to announce it, Anime Expo 2004 maybe, but until that announcement comes, until we actually hear it from them stating such, I don't believe Geneon USA in the credits should stop an anime from being listed here.

[Shii]

Originally Posted by ACE2003

Well, fansubing in itself is wrong

Illegal != wrong

[frowndog]

Originally Posted by ACE2003

Well, fansubing in itself is wrong, which makes this funny and ironic. But in regards to what I have said, with only 95 out of 100 percent, theres still room for error

If you turned on the weather channel right now and they said there would be a 95% chance of rain tomorrow, would you bring an umbrella when you go out? Weird example but it illustrates my point.

Anyway, i have to agree with what microlith has been saying ever since the first page of this thread, there is nothing more blatantly obvious for having a North American stakeholder in an anime series than having its NAME in the credits.

We ask ourselves, why do Japanese companies not bring suit against fansubbers when fansubs are clearly in violation of their intellectual property rights? The answer to that is some combination of them not caring, North America (English) being far from their intended market anyway or they think its good publicity. Now, if the production company suddenly received funding from an AMERICAN company, this American company therefore now has a stake in what happens to this series in America therefore nullifying the first and second argument as to why Anime companies do not bring suit.

Also, them being co-producers in this somehow implies that even if they do not get the license, it WILL be licensed. Shows like Naruto or FMA have very good chances of being licensed BUT they aren't. Lotsa things can happen that can mess up the acquisition of licenses (like the Macross license problem). I also distinctly remember Bandai's Jerry Chu saying in a chat that Naruto (at that time) was not licensed and that it was VERY difficult to get its license so people were curently staying away from it.

Having a North American Anime Distribution company's name plastered very prominently in the OP however, implies with near certainty that it will be licensed. If not though, Geneon still has a stake in how it does in North America, licensed or not.

[ACE2003]

Well frowndog, as far as your example is concerned, there is STILL room for error. Just because it a high chance that it will rain doesn't mean that it will rain. All it's stating that their is a high possibility of rain and nothing more. So, I wouldn't bring my umbrella....I would wear a rain coat!!!! ^_^ But I understand the point. To me, if it's not 100% then there's still some doubt.

[bayoab]

Well, if 95% of the series will be licensed... lets use the other statistics.
So far 100% of the series that have had Geneon USA in the name have been licensed and usually earlier in the series (before ep 3, especially when being mass subbed). I believe Texhnolyze was the only exception to this early rule. And it isnt like you can contact Geneon and go "hey, do you have this", odds are the answer is "No comment" which is neither yes or no. (Infact, for texhnolyze, even though it had leaked out that then pioneer had it, when i asked about it at the Ab2k3 Pioneer panel pointing out that they had put on the site that they owned it, i still got "I cannot comment on that at this time). Therefore historically, there has still been no error. I wonder how many of these will go unannounced by the end of con season.

[ElvenPath]

This is all so hilarious, all this just because of a "Geneon USA" displayed in an OP. My opinion is instead of making assumptions that this or that show is licensed, we should just wait for the official announce. That way, everything's clear as crystal and doesn't leave place to any doubts.

[zalas]

Originally Posted by ElvenPath

This is all so hilarious, all this just because of a "Geneon USA" displayed in an OP. My opinion is instead of making assumptions that this or that show is licensed, we should just wait for the official announce. That way, everything's clear as crystal and doesn't leave place to any doubts.

Does that mean you'd be willing to walk into a crowded bar and start insulting all the drunkards? Because you know, there's no clear cut law saying you couldn't do this...

[ElvenPath]

Originally Posted by zalas

Does that mean you'd be willing to walk into a crowded bar and start insulting all the drunkards? Because you know, there's no clear cut law saying you couldn't do this...

I could do it but I wouldn't since my act could have serious consequences.

[jennwenn]

Hmm, so it sounds like the Geneon representative said that co-producing and licensing are still two different processes.

But, did he just say 95% because he was acknowledgeing that s*** happens and through some freak of nature Geneon might not get a show, but they pretty much always will?

Also, we should consider the case of other co-produced shows like Hi no Tori which is unlisted as it is co-produced by Thirteen/WNET, a tri-state area PBS channel. That's even shakier ground because 13/WNET have no history with anime.

What I don't understand is why Geneon are not as clear as ADV are with their co-productions. ADV stated right out that they co-produced Kaleido Star, licensed it, and will be releasing it. Why aren't Geneon being as clear? Are their deals truly more shakey?

[NoSanninWa]

As you said, coproducing and licensing are two different processes. However they usually negotiate for a license when the coproduce. The 95% is because they might not get the license in their contract either through not being willing to pay for it up front or because another member of the committee might want to hold onto those rights until later.

As for Hi no Tori, I believe that it isn't licensed. I have written to WNET to ask them about this, but I haven't received an answer yet.

[MasafumiGotoh]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

As you said, coproducing and licensing are two different processes. However they usually negotiate for a license when the coproduce. The 95% is because they might not get the license in their contract either through not being willing to pay for it up front or because another member of the committee might want to hold onto those rights until later.

As for Hi no Tori, I believe that it isn't licensed. I have written to WNET to ask them about this, but I haven't received an answer yet.

I guess WNET is stumped at your question.

In my opionion this is a little scare they come up with us. They know fansubbers can be fragile. But some of you people have the same idea I had in my head. Why not try it. Fansub the anime. The license is still unclear to many and only a formal annoucement will do. What can they really do?

Just say it was like a rumor. Nothing is possible until they officially annouced it. Besides Geneon is only hurting themselves for licensing something we never even seen.

[microlith]

Geneon is only hurting themselves for licensing something we never even seen.

They're not hurting themselves. They're building a title base they can introduce over time. Whether or not anyone who browses animesuki sees it or not makes little to no difference, since:

a.) their primary target is dub fans and
b.) anyone who ignores the japan side of things will be introduced to it when Geneon decides to start advertising it (in Newtype USA, adding trailers to discs, etc.)

I say stop making excuses and ignoring the obvious.

[Gold_Rogers]

Originally Posted by microlith

Geneon is only hurting themselves for licensing something we never even seen.

They're not hurting themselves. They're building a title base they can introduce over time. Whether or not anyone who browses animesuki sees it or not makes little to no difference, since:

a.) their primary target is dub fans and
b.) anyone who ignores the japan side of things will be introduced to it when Geneon decides to start advertising it (in Newtype USA, adding trailers to discs, etc.)

I say stop making excuses and ignoring the obvious.

Mr. Anime Daioh (btw, I like that. How did you get the title?), I say the obvious is that 95% and 100% are different things completely, and what Geneon said is pretty much that licensing and coproducing are two different processes that are not always interlocked.

Do we look for shades of grey and decide at which shade of grey we should stop at? Or do we draw a clear line between black and white and let that stand as the final rule? I say draw a line between black and white. It's economical (because you don't need to argue for or against it).

[lomeando]

Originally Posted by ElvenPath

I could do it but I wouldn't since my act could have serious consequences.

Originally Posted by XxNarutoFanxX

The license is still unclear to many and only a formal annoucement will do. What can they really do?

Maybe it has escaped your notice, but what is going on here is breaking the law. That isn't even up for debate. It's not ambiguous, vague, or unclear. The only thing preventing you from facing "serious consequences" is the goodwill of these companies. What they can "really do" is get your behind in front of a judge. If they're convinced that that's the only way they're going to get any respect from people like you, well, then, that's what they'll do. There's no language or culture barrier stopping them from picking up the phone and calling their lawyer. That's par for the course in this country.

So Geneon USA doesn't necessarily have the distribution rights? Big deal. They're an investor. They have partial ownership over the show itself. That is also not ambiguous, vague, or unclear. Your actions in distributing their property are violating their rights.

Come on, these companies are on our side. Don't turn them against us because you're too impatient or too cheap to wait for the DVD releases, and too arrogant to believe they have any recourse against you.

[MasafumiGotoh]

I want to see the fine print. The section that clearly states that a logo on the animation has confirmed that licensing was complete and a official annoucement to the public has been made.

19 out of 20 is just a ratio. Anything could happen who knows? Who would have knew terrorist would hijack 4 airplanes crash 3 into buildings and fail on 1 plane. What was the probability of that happening before?

If they had partial ownership then animesuki.com would not put so many titles up for download. That would soon be licensed.

Come on, these companies are on our side. Don't turn them against us because you're too impatient or too cheap to wait for the DVD releases, and too arrogant to believe they have any recourse against you.

I only buy what is my moneys worth. If it sucks I say delete(no harm done and no loss for both parties). If its good, its a keeper I would most likely buy it. Besides I expect very little because i have no idea what these titles are about.

The companies should be more concerned with the people that actually sell the anime. Remember we are promotimg anime not ruining it. Once the series is licensed(remeber my philosophy "until they annouce to the public") then animesuki would remove all the stuff. I believe thats pretty reasonable. What can actually happen in a trial and error? The most they would do for now is send the sub group a little letter and animesuki will get one too. We apologize never to do it again and thats done.

[sarcasm]With all that said lets debate about the Lakers! I love the lakers.... they won by .01 milliseconds. Who thinks they should not win? I am J/k just get back to topic people. [/sarcasm]

[microlith]

the obvious is that 95% and 100% are different things completely

Not different enough to matter. Since we can't know exactly what _won't_ be licensed, to say that it's all fair game is to be playing stupid.

The companies should be more concerned with the people that actually sell the anime. Remember we are promotimg anime not ruining it.

Read this very closely:

You are overstating the importance of fansubs.

they won by .01 milliseconds. Who thinks they should not win?

That's fair, it's inside game time. This is an entirely different matter, one that you're on the wrong side of to begin with so you have NO bargaining room.

Stop ignoring the blatantly obvious people.

[marin]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

Actually, I am given to understand that 95% of all anime produced today is licensed before it ever airs.

Actually by a comparison from Anime.nfo and what has actually been announced, only a little more than half of last season's shows have been liscensed.

The number really can't be that high, there are just TONS of shows out each season, North American releases simply aren't that numerous.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by marin

Actually by a comparison from Anime.nfo and what has actually been announced, only a little more than half of last season's shows have been liscensed.

The number really can't be that high, there are just TONS of shows out each season, North American releases simply aren't that numerous.

Ever since ADV made that statement, we decided to actually count, here are our current numbers.

Stats:
July-August 2003
Licensed:5
Total:12
Current: 41.7%
September-December 2003
Licensed:8
Total:36
Current:22.2%
January 2004
Licensed:4
Total: 16
Currently: 25%
April 2004
Licensed:3
Total: 30
Currently: 10%

Grand Total:
Licensed:20
Total: 94
Currently: 21.3%

[lomeando]

Originally Posted by microlith

Stop ignoring the blatantly obvious people.

One thing I've noticed a lot of in politics is that people will often repeat completely baseless statements over and over again, so often that otherwise reputable sources start saying them as if they were facts, despite any blatantly obvious evidence to the contrary (Saddam is supporting al Qaeda, didn't you know? What do you mean he hates bin Laden? That's not material to this issue).

After I picked up on that, I noticed that this occurs all the time all over the place. I think maybe these people are so disconnected from reality that they aren't even capable of seeing how mistaken they are. This is somewhat understandable. People are very good at lying to themselves and twisting facts in order to justify decisions they've already made.

I'm not going to bother to refute XxNarutoFanxX's arguments, because they're completely irrelevant. Either he didn't even read what I wrote, or he simply could not understand it. I thought it was pretty clear, but maybe I'm biased.

[BanditKing]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Ever since ADV made that statement, we decided to actually count, here are our current numbers.

Stats:
July-August 2003
Licensed:5
Total:12
Current: 41.7%
September-December 2003
Licensed:8
Total:36
Current:22.2%
January 2004
Licensed:4
Total: 16
Currently: 25%
April 2004
Licensed:3
Total: 30
Currently: 10%

Grand Total:
Licensed:20
Total: 94
Currently: 21.3%

you know just because they licensed it doesn't mean they have to announced it right away.Look at Scrapped Princess,Princess tutu and stelliva they have been licensed over a year or longer but just two of them were announced a week ago.Scrapped Princess is in somebody hand but we don't know who.My point is that they can licensed a show and sat on it as long as they want.We outsider just don't know about it.