2011-03-11, 20:01 | Link #41 | ||
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Age: 34
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Ange's story does not represent reality. It's just one of many stories about Rokkenjima. We aren't told the details of that story because no one knows them (except Eva, and she dies). Look at it this way: every story is explained, except for one. Don't get caught up on that one story. Quote:
2. Years pass while Kinzo and his engineers waste time digging tunnels 3. A sub arrives from Italy containing 10 tons of gold 4. A fight breaks out, resulting in the death of everyone but Kinzo and Beatrice 5. The nukes are dropped, the war ends, Rokkenjima is forgotten in the resulting chaos Maybe I'm just dumb. You'll have to point out the obvious to me. |
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2011-03-11, 20:12 | Link #42 | |
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Nothing's 100% reliable in series, but no real world sources are 100% reliable either. It's up to you to make the judgement on it. |
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2011-03-11, 20:30 | Link #43 |
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The explosives werent there for #1. And they were not there when the italians arrived, either, they were constructing a base for kaitans, but had yet to get anything to that effect. The base wasnt even finished during kinzo's story.
Therefore, if the base were unfinished, understocked, and frankly forgotten, then we can explain why kinzo got away with everything. That means that if 900 tons of explosives were transported there, it would take place after kinzo's narrative. Setting the gold aside, when making use of the cave, there is no way that the imperial forces would have missed the wreckage. Its there, its evidence, and kinzo would have been held up on treason for hiding that alone. The explosives alone arent a big deal, its how kinzo got away scot-free thats the problem, which the explosives throws a light on. As for the kakeras? Nothings answered, at all. Its not just Ange's, the fantasy scenes, the meta plotline all throw all perspectives into doubt. If you dont see what questions are left to be answered, ive gotta question why you think anything is answered in the first place. All premises of all kakeras are dubious, thats the end result of the goose chase ryuukishi has lead us on. |
2011-03-11, 20:34 | Link #44 | ||
Slashy Slashy!
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2011-03-11, 20:36 | Link #45 | |
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Seriously, that's a terrible premise to act upon. If you really want to see what I'm referring to, try conclusively explaining Erika and just who or what she is, aside from being the detective, that's a question ryuukishi posed to us, after all. |
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2011-03-11, 20:44 | Link #46 | ||
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There's no reason to assume they were always there. Quote:
Episode 3's magic battle, for example. |
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2011-03-11, 20:58 | Link #47 | |||
Slashy Slashy!
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Location: USA
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No it isn't. Identical twins have the same genotype.
And there's a small chance two people could have exactly the same genotype, even if they weren't related. It's a matter of probability. But I think you're assuming that we can't reason about something if we can't be certain about it. This is not the case. Quote:
If the text doesn't specify either way (and I'm not sure that it does), it makes much more sense to assume that the explosives were there all along. Either way, you're using circumstantial evidence to fabricate a minor plot hole. Quote:
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2011-03-11, 21:00 | Link #48 |
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I'm not sure what you mean. If you're talking about "as a method for creating a creature" then no, since they have random mutations. If you're talking about "as a method of finding a criminal" then no, since even if you had a test that can identify a person's DNA 100% of the time you can't be 100% sure that the person's DNA is there because they were the criminal.
Seriously, that's a terrible premise to act upon. If you really want to see what I'm referring to, try conclusively explaining Erika and just who or what she is, aside from being the detective, that's a question ryuukishi posed to us, after all.[/QUOTE] Didn't I just say it's impossible to conclusively explain stuff in this story? I'm not sure what you're asking or why. |
2011-03-11, 21:14 | Link #49 | ||||||
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2011-03-11, 21:24 | Link #50 | |||
Slashy Slashy!
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2011-03-11, 21:25 | Link #51 | ||
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I noticed. Look. You can't conclusively prove anything because there is nothing to concretely base your reasoning on. And yet, Ryuukishi challenged us to explain Erika at the end of episode 6. So. I'll grant your choose your own adventure. However, challenges like those are entirely wild goose chases. That does not sit well with me. |
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2011-03-11, 21:40 | Link #52 | |||
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The problem is that there no evidence or anything to back up speculations. There is no right or wrong. Challenging us to find the answer to several questions which have no answer is a wild goose chase. It's a troll. Quote:
But even of there were no mention, it'd only result in a stalemate, further buttressing my argument. You're the one playing apologist, after all |
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2011-03-11, 21:47 | Link #53 | |||
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2011-03-11, 21:49 | Link #54 | |||
Slashy Slashy!
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As a more extreme example, it is impossible to prove that "1+1=2" is correct. We have only the evidence that that has been the case so far. We are not certain. If tomorrow, someone demonstrated that you could take 1 apple, and add it to another apple, and get three apples, we would have to throw out mathematics. Because we cannot be certain about math either. Quote:
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I retract all previous statements, this one fact proves that Ryukishi is a terrible author. |
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2011-03-11, 22:09 | Link #55 | ||||
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2011-03-11, 22:28 | Link #56 | |
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I actually understood it that way, that Kinzô used his strong contacts within the GHQ to make it easier for him when buying Rokkenjima, without the island actually being checked, because he was being trusted. And while of course those amounts of explosives seem rather silly, it's not impossible to imagine that the military groups that stocked those on Rokkenjima would keep it a secret from GHQ. There were many people who refused to accept the defeat of Japan and kept their loyalty to a defunct system, so I could imagine that 1 or 2 bases could have 'dissappeared' from observation in order to ensure a certain arsenal for a comeback ... even though that never happened. It is highly fictional, but not any more than most stories involving surviving Nazi groups which became a popular trope in the west. There are enough stories dealing with secret facilities that were never discovered and those same modern legends exist in Japan. Of course this is more or less a trope found in spy fiction, but that genre is not so far from mystery and detective fiction. Explosives being hidden under Rokkenjima might be improbable but not implausible. |
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2011-03-11, 22:33 | Link #57 | ||
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Moreover, that boast of ryuukishi's would be a lot more impressive if he had the chops to live up to it. Undermining any possibility of a conclusive answer rxisting is cowardice. His taunt is nothing more than an empty troll. If it is impossible to determine a correct answer, than for the purpose of a competition it is the same as there not being one. Its a heads I win, tails you lose scenario. A wild goose chase, and a waste of time. |
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2011-03-11, 22:35 | Link #58 |
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I personally think that nothing was answered and I hate that, but I can't exactly say it's worse than satan. I mean, it is worse than Hitler as a mystery and if Umineko was a person I'd wish it a very bad case of pneumonia, but as a story it's just...meh.
I was very angry once I realized that we'd never get an answer to the actual killer(even if it was "probably" Kyrie/Yasu) and the locked rooms. Yes the locked rooms are childish and easy, but to me the greatest pleasure in a mystery novel is once the detective is about to announce his solution. Even if the locked rooms seem easy enough, I love that feeling, that thrill of wondering whether you are right or wrong. Even if it's an easy mystery, I still like the payoff of being completely right, just like the detective, as the characters stand in awe. The entire novel builds up to that payoff. Umineko's build up was HUGE! ...Then the "payoff" if you can call it such came in episode 7, and I was left disappointed. There was no dash, no sense of finality. In a duel between reader and writer, win or lose, you bow to your opponent once it's over. Umineko's ending didn't make me want to bow, because it didn't make me feel like it was over. The mystery genre is a game that doesn't end until all loose ends are gone over, discussed, argued, and concluded in either a gunfight if the series is a hardboiled, or the classic "the killer is YOU SIR!" in the golden age. My biggest problem with Umineko isn't even in its content, now that I stop to think about it. It's that it lacks that feeling. Episode 7's summation wasn't good. Ryu might argue that he doesn't want to "give away" answers to those who haven't solved it, but he has made the answers even more meaningless to those who have. He focused so much on the mystery's heart that he forgot to build an appropriate body and soul. He might have said that Umineko wasn't a mystery, but he treated it like one. He contradicted himself, then contradicted himself again at the end, twice. He said it wasn't one, then he said it was one. But it lacked one very important element. That last strike, that last thrust that makes the genre what it is regardless of whether the novel is a hardboiled, a cozy or a good old golden age story. The moment the detective bursts the truth wide open. I understand what his themes were, but I'd say that his execution was, in the end, pretty flawed. It didn't make me wonder whether wanting the whole truth was bad or not, it made me root for the damn villain. That gigantic letdown annoyed me. But now that I look back, the content itself isn't that bad. |
2011-03-11, 22:38 | Link #59 | |
Slashy Slashy!
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2011-03-11, 22:39 | Link #60 | |
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There's plenty of evidence against Erika being Battler's perfect self (chiefly: Battler thinks Erika is a complete bitch). Crucial point: a theory can be more valid than another theory even if it isn't proved to be true. Last edited by Leafsnail; 2011-03-11 at 22:50. |
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